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Clash of the "Ubers" [Latios Warstory + Discussion]
- Thread starter RaikouLover
- Start date
That would be kind of cool, for people who like to play more defensively (like me). Tentacruel is really a niche Pokemon, and Dugtrio can only revenge kill (unless you wanna try to bring it in on a Nasty Plot...). Or faster stuff that can deal damage to it, but most of that would only be revenge killing, no safe switch-ins.
I'm gonna look into the Lati@s a bit more, and see what I come up with.
I must admit, I actually think Latios is probally worse than Latias in OU. Why? As Lee pointed out, Latias can be a decent Infernape counter. Sure, Latios may outclass it in attack, but it can't take on Tyranitar and friends as well. Latias gets Charm and Wish. Yes, Charm and wish.
Charm is what I would like to talk about. Yes, Charm. Charm lowers the power of Crunch/Pursuit coming from CB Tar, and then can set up with CM on it, beat it with Grass Knot, Thunder Wave it, or just beat it up. RaikouLover and I talked about it, and we agreed that Latias is better than Latios.
I think I missed something, but I'll remember later, if I can.
Charm is what I would like to talk about. Yes, Charm. Charm lowers the power of Crunch/Pursuit coming from CB Tar, and then can set up with CM on it, beat it with Grass Knot, Thunder Wave it, or just beat it up. RaikouLover and I talked about it, and we agreed that Latias is better than Latios.
I think I missed something, but I'll remember later, if I can.
Well, I have to say a few things.
First of all, is it me or has their been a steady decline in Specsmences since the beginning of the D/P metagame? Maybe that tells you something!
I think the following pokemon would disagree with you.
I actually ordered them in shoddy rankings:
#2, Gengar doesn't counter persay, but revenges with Shadow Ball.
#3, Blissey. Easily laughs at Draco Meteor, and can T-wave or Ice Beam.
#5, Tyranitar can take 2 Draco Meteors, thanks to the new HP and Special Defense orientated Choice Band sets, and can proceed to kill with pursuit.
#7, Heatran can take Draco Meteor, Psychic, Grass Knot, HP Fire, and even Thunderbolt reasonably well. Choice Scarf varients pose an immediate threat with HP Ice / Dragon Pulse.
#8, Bronzong can take a pair of Draco Meteors, and either explode, put it to sleep, or damage it with Gyro Ball.
#10, Metagross can take Draco Meteor, Psychic, and Grass Knot. Proceeds to kill with Pursuit.
#12 Weavile can revenge kill quite easily with... um... all of its STAB moves.
#26 Snorlax is not as reliable, but still can pose a threat thanks to Pursuit, Crunch, and Body Slams possible paralysis.
#33 Yanmega will beat it as a lead 9 times out of 10 because they all run focus sash and seriously injure or KO it with Bug Buzz.
#113 Registeel doesn't mind anything, and can Paralyze with T-Wave or dent with Ice Punch.
That's a solid list, and its more than can reliably counter Garchomp. And I'm pretty sure most of them are on all teams anyway, so I don't see overcentralization.
As I mentioned in the warstory, DD Latios is fail, which leaves the Calm Minder, which struggles with most of the same pokemon. In fact, the Calm Minder has trouble with steels in general, otherwise, Blissey and Registeel will cripple it with T-Wave or Toxic.
The point of the warstory is to learn from it. Dragon Claw from the Dragon Dancer is a 3HKO on Suicune with a Life Orb, which is mediocre to poor to say the least. People also pump up Latios' defenses when Latias is actually the better pokemon IMO for offense and defense. Latios is only slightly sturdier than Salamence thanks to base 80 HP, and is around par with Garchomp (107 / 95 / 85!!!!). Nearly every Garchomp is running Yache Berry, effectively turning 4Xs into 2.33, or is the dangerous Scarf revenge killer.
Also, the movepool is great, but they suffer from the 4 moveslot syndrome... :-(. Latios actually doesn't have much time to recover, as show in the story!
Take a look above.
And to those of you who fail to noticed leftovers or Life Orb on the Latios' in the story... Soul Dew is proposed to be a banned item on the Lati@ twins. Why? Well, technically it is illegal to obtain in-game, such as how we frown upon illegal movesets. Plus, Soul Dew is the only thing keeping them in Ubers IMO.
Seriously people, stop theorymoning and START TESTING FOR YOURSELVES!!!!
First of all, is it me or has their been a steady decline in Specsmences since the beginning of the D/P metagame? Maybe that tells you something!
I think the following pokemon would disagree with you.
I actually ordered them in shoddy rankings:
#2, Gengar doesn't counter persay, but revenges with Shadow Ball.
#3, Blissey. Easily laughs at Draco Meteor, and can T-wave or Ice Beam.
#5, Tyranitar can take 2 Draco Meteors, thanks to the new HP and Special Defense orientated Choice Band sets, and can proceed to kill with pursuit.
#7, Heatran can take Draco Meteor, Psychic, Grass Knot, HP Fire, and even Thunderbolt reasonably well. Choice Scarf varients pose an immediate threat with HP Ice / Dragon Pulse.
#8, Bronzong can take a pair of Draco Meteors, and either explode, put it to sleep, or damage it with Gyro Ball.
#10, Metagross can take Draco Meteor, Psychic, and Grass Knot. Proceeds to kill with Pursuit.
#12 Weavile can revenge kill quite easily with... um... all of its STAB moves.
#26 Snorlax is not as reliable, but still can pose a threat thanks to Pursuit, Crunch, and Body Slams possible paralysis.
#33 Yanmega will beat it as a lead 9 times out of 10 because they all run focus sash and seriously injure or KO it with Bug Buzz.
#113 Registeel doesn't mind anything, and can Paralyze with T-Wave or dent with Ice Punch.
That's a solid list, and its more than can reliably counter Garchomp. And I'm pretty sure most of them are on all teams anyway, so I don't see overcentralization.
As I mentioned in the warstory, DD Latios is fail, which leaves the Calm Minder, which struggles with most of the same pokemon. In fact, the Calm Minder has trouble with steels in general, otherwise, Blissey and Registeel will cripple it with T-Wave or Toxic.
The point of the warstory is to learn from it. Dragon Claw from the Dragon Dancer is a 3HKO on Suicune with a Life Orb, which is mediocre to poor to say the least. People also pump up Latios' defenses when Latias is actually the better pokemon IMO for offense and defense. Latios is only slightly sturdier than Salamence thanks to base 80 HP, and is around par with Garchomp (107 / 95 / 85!!!!). Nearly every Garchomp is running Yache Berry, effectively turning 4Xs into 2.33, or is the dangerous Scarf revenge killer.
Also, the movepool is great, but they suffer from the 4 moveslot syndrome... :-(. Latios actually doesn't have much time to recover, as show in the story!
Originally Posted by Fat Xaio
I think the strongest STAB draco meteor in the game is a pretty excellent reason. The fact that it has such a vast movepool and an excellent type coverage is a good reason too. No 4x weaknesses is sort of irritating as well. And don't get me STARTED on the mass over-centralisation that will destroy all we love. You'll only be able to revenge kill it, and only then it's going to have to be a pursuit user that can outrun it. Weavile will run rampant, and all will be lost in chaos. I think it's a nice idea, but ubers should just remain in ubers TBH.
Take a look above.
And to those of you who fail to noticed leftovers or Life Orb on the Latios' in the story... Soul Dew is proposed to be a banned item on the Lati@ twins. Why? Well, technically it is illegal to obtain in-game, such as how we frown upon illegal movesets. Plus, Soul Dew is the only thing keeping them in Ubers IMO.
Seriously people, stop theorymoning and START TESTING FOR YOURSELVES!!!!
Just pointing out that Blissey can easily take on Latios with T-Wave. Even with Dragon Dancers, Blissey won't be OHKO'd by the strongest physical (usable- no Giga Impact bullshit) move Latios can throw at it, after a Dragon Dance, with a Life Orb, which would be Dragon Claw or Zen Headbutt.
Blissey basically can switch in on any Latios, just to see what type it is. If Draco Meteor does about 46-50%, it's modest Specs, so Bliss just has to be played very conservatively.
It could also increase use of Shed Shell on Blissey, since Dugtrio could open up a Latios sweep, ridding it of some of its biggest problems: Blissey and Heatran. Obviously Dugtrio would have trouble with ScarfTrans, but whatever... Just a thought.
IMO, Latios isn't as good as it's hyped up to be. I want to do some testing now. >_>
Blissey basically can switch in on any Latios, just to see what type it is. If Draco Meteor does about 46-50%, it's modest Specs, so Bliss just has to be played very conservatively.
It could also increase use of Shed Shell on Blissey, since Dugtrio could open up a Latios sweep, ridding it of some of its biggest problems: Blissey and Heatran. Obviously Dugtrio would have trouble with ScarfTrans, but whatever... Just a thought.
IMO, Latios isn't as good as it's hyped up to be. I want to do some testing now. >_>
Soul Dew IS obtainable ingame. Reason for its ban regardless of Lati_s' status is because it makes them WAY too strong for OU. Period. Ingame feasibility has zero bearing on Shoddy/Competitor as long as it technically exists.
And while I'm on the subject, I have no problem making an exception with banning a specialized item that works with only two Pokemon.
And while I'm on the subject, I have no problem making an exception with banning a specialized item that works with only two Pokemon.
We're talking about Latios. Latios is more offensively based, while Latias is more defensively based, so Safeguard/Refresh can work better on Latias.
Latios already has 4-slot-syndrome, so it would be really hard to find a slot for one of those moves without losing an insane amount of type coverage, which it really can't afford to lose.
I knew you said Latias, but I thought you were referring to Latios with that post by saying "well Latias ran that..."
Bleh, whatever.
I've tested that set a bit too with Refresh > Safeguard. My conclusion is pretty much the same, Lati@s really suffers from having only that one attacking move(whatever it may be, most likely Dragon Pulse) which will lead it to being walled by a lot more pokemon. Overall I think the Refresh/Safeguard set is probaly way more useful in Ubers than it is in OU.
Sure, others outclass it in pure attack power, but Latios has absurd special attack regardless. DDing can be a major surprise, and catching someone off guard is the best thing one can do to win. Also keep in mind that the point of DDing with Latios is to mix sweep, not to physical sweep.
Um no? I don't care about usage when it comes to rating how powerful something is, and neither should anyone intelligent. Specsmence is damn good regardless.
Revenge killing does nothing to prevent Latios from being amazing, because INTELLIGENT TRAINERS SWITCH. Also keep in mind that Modest Gengars hit speed ties with Latios, and its a coin flip at that point to decide who wins.
Bold 252 HP / 252 Def Blissey vs Latios Dragon Claw with Life Orb, Neutral Nature, 196 EVs: 48.18% - 56.72%
Same Blissey's Ice Beam: 33.89% - 39.87%
Indeed Blissey stops a pure special sweeper in its tracks, but it does that to many things IN UBERS. Blissey is just that good.
252 HP Tyranitar IN SANDSTREAM takes 85.40% - 100.50% from surf from a regular Specs build. Not happening.
HAHA SURF.
Indeed. Bronzong is a total bastard that won't die unless it gets chipped to death, fired, or blows itself up. I'm fairly certain it will be 3HKO'd by Surf, and it won't last long if it keeps switching into Latios.
Two shotted by Shadow Ball, Surf, and T-bolt. Latios can also pack Earthquake on a physical set.
Pursuit, I see. Weavile can actually do what you claimed that Gengar could.
#26 Snorlax is not as reliable
Latios is a stupid lead. The only reason Salamence does it well is because of Intimidate, and even then, SpecsMence is more dangerous as a surprise in the late game. The same goes with Latios. Obviously a 1v1 has Mega winning.
Steel actually works, but will be taking 30%+ a hit. Not a fun thing with no recovery move outside of Rest.
It isn't that solid of a list, but it is probably the best you can do in OU. I still stand by my statement that Latios would be far more difficult to counter then Garchomp. Physical Garchomp is about as scary as Special Latios, and they both have their "gimmick" sets that abuse the other attack stat, which makes them much scarier. People would switch in Skarm without a second thought if it wasn't possible for Garchomp to Fire Blast them.
Choice Specs, and Mix Sweeping versions. If I made it sound like a pure DD Latios is good, then my bad. DD just helps draw in physical tanks that get blasted by its various special moves. Or as a surprise since most people would expect a special set.
I don't care about "learning" from a single warstory. There are more factors in a battle then "Latios sux0rs". Suicune gets 2HKO'd (with the possibility of being OHKO'd IIRC) from a Specs Grass knot, and is probably 2HKO'd from T-bolt as well. If you really want to go around testing everything, compile a list of 20 battles with about as many different Latios sets and evaluate the success. A single "test" is worthless.
Since when was versatility a negative thing? Having 4 move slot syndrome IS GOOD, because it makes it harder to predict which means you have a high chance of losing a poke before you even know what it does, with a threat of being swept. Also, Latios shouldn't be all that worried with using Recover. THE THING ATTACKS. How many sets have Salamence Roosting? Very few compared to the attack sets.
Theorymon exists because of how damage is calculated in the game, MATH. It is impossible to test or theorize about every possible scenario that could happen. Theorymon is an acceptable way to evaluate something's strength in many people's eyes, but testing helps. Theorymon also helps direct testing, so lay off the math.
We had a tournament to test the Latis y'know. Theorymon should only be of LIMITED USE now that the tournament is finished. I'd really like to hear more posts from people who were in the tournament and such.
Heh, I'm not trying to attack you or anything, because I really don't remember who was in the tournament (I wasn't), but I really hope people who have opinions on the Latis from the Eon Tourney can start speaking up and stop theorymon from being the main factor in their ban.
Lord Alchemy, I posted counters to Specs Latios. Each one of Latios' sets are counterable. If the damn thing Dragon Dances, there are plenty of appropriate counters. If it Draco Meteors, proceed accordingly. He is not uncounterable.
You can argue his versitility makes him too dangerous, but you can also argue that about Lucario, Salamence, Tyranitar, and others... as they pose such a big threat their first time out.
I agree with Bologo, people from the tournament should speak out. And I am currently testing the Mixed Dragon Dancer, and starting Specs Latios soon after. The mixed Dragon Dancer is much more effective than the regular, as I dropped Earthquake for Draco Meteor, to nail physical walls, and Recover for Thunderbolt / HP Fire to deal with some steels (mainly just skarm, I have maggy kill the rest.)
I will post logs soon with Latios in battle in this thread.
You can argue his versitility makes him too dangerous, but you can also argue that about Lucario, Salamence, Tyranitar, and others... as they pose such a big threat their first time out.
I agree with Bologo, people from the tournament should speak out. And I am currently testing the Mixed Dragon Dancer, and starting Specs Latios soon after. The mixed Dragon Dancer is much more effective than the regular, as I dropped Earthquake for Draco Meteor, to nail physical walls, and Recover for Thunderbolt / HP Fire to deal with some steels (mainly just skarm, I have maggy kill the rest.)
I will post logs soon with Latios in battle in this thread.
This is true, but his counters are extremely specific, and a mixed sweep can wreck havoc if you're properly prepared. Latios is counterable in the same way that many Ubers are. That doesn't stop him from being Uber. Also you should check why I slammed many of the counters. You shouldn't assume Draco Meteor is coming every time. The only counters I saw that where any viable are Blissey, Registeel, and Bronzong; and Blissey is totally destroyed by any set with DD+Dragon Claw (with the correct EV spread). Bronzong and Registeel won't enjoy switching into 30%+ damage and wont last long either.
But Latios does it much better then those. Latios has much more specific counters then any of those, and by forcing people to use very specific counters is what the entire tier system attempts to avoid. The only one I would imagine to be as dangerous from the get go would be Salamence, but the fact that Latios can take a few Ice Beams is HUGE when it comes to setting up.
Again, I don't completely agree with specific logs unless you post a rather large number and do in depth analysis on each one. I could post various logs that would attempt to show how broken a BellyZard is, but it won't hold much water.
I also repeat: Pure physical DD Latios isn't that great. It might be good if Latios ever rapes OU like some people want, namely just because people will be expecting Choice Specs or mixed DDing Latios. But otherwise, Choice Specs or a DD+Dragon Claw/Zen Headbutt+Draco Meteor+Some Other Special would probably end up standard. Just build the Attack EV's to 2HKO Blissey after a single DD and you're good. God help Blissey if you've thrown up an entry hazard on top of that.
**Edit:
I'm not arguing against Latias. I think Latias is actually fairly borderline between OU and Ubers, and I think does warrant more testing. It is more of a wall then a sweeper and is not nearly as terrifying as Latios. This is ofcourse assuming Soul Dew is banned, which brings up a big problem when banning items which is a slippery slope.
The same way you counter Raikou.... and Garchomp with regards to Sub + Stat Up. Except you don't have to worry about missing.
You just need to hit twice. The beefy special defense and only 2x resistance changes things. Blissey can OHKO Garchomp if it has the right EV distribution, but cannot do the same to Latios. I've battled some one who EV'd their Blissey with just the sole purpose of OHKOing Garchomp and surviving a Banded Outrage.
Going on the side of ridiculous calculations here:
Modest 252 Sp Att Blissey vs Neutral Latios (0HP/0SpDef): 49.17% - 57.81%
Same against a 0HP/0SpDef Garchomp: 102.52% - 120.73%
That makes it much scarier, as you can't afford to allow Latios 2HKO you since you'll be too slow and won't OHKO yourself.
Also note:
252 Att Adamant Choice Banded Weavile Pursuit to non switching Latios (0HP/0Def): 82.72% - 97.34%
It doesn't seem like you're giving Latios enough credit in the defense area. Sure, Night Slash will do it, but then you get into mind games where you could potentially lose your Weavile.
From the limited number of calcs I ran, a standard Cress would probably counter a mixed latios pretty darn well. I'm still kinda on the edge so far though for 'Os ('As is probably fine).
With? Skamory won't last against Thunderbolt. Snorlax will still take over 1/3rd of its health against a single DD LO Latios, and this is assuming max defense and HP EVs with a +Defense nature. Same goes for Hariyama with the same EV spread. A Modest Latios with only 60 EVs in SpAtt (I would understand that this is not the best build, but I'm just running with it to show the numbers) would do 79.88% - 94.11% to the same Hariyama with Draco Meteor and would enjoy the free switch.
Vaporeon, Swampert and Suicune won't enjoy Grass Knot or Energy Ball; Donphan won't like any special attack let alone Ice Beam; Gyarados (lol @ RoaryDos) hates T-bolt; Hippowdon won't like any of its special attacks. The only thing I can see that would be able to manage to phaze out a mixed Latios without taking heavy damage would be Aggron or Steelix, but Latios does learn EQ which could screw those guys over if this is more physical based Latios.
Now obviously a 192 Att / 60 SpAtt / 252 Spd Modest Latios might not be the optimal spread, seeing as I pulled it out of my ass as an example, but even then the thing is pretty dangerous.
**Edit:
Standard Support Cresselia vs Fubar'd Mix Latios:
Dragon Claw after a single DD: 34.19% - 40.36%
Possible 3HKO with Leftovers
Dragon Pulse: 38.05% - 44.73%
Draco Meteor: 58.87% - 69.15%
Shadow Ball: 45.24% - 53.21%
Cress Ice Beam vs Latios: 47.84% - 56.48%
Cresselia actually loses here. You switch in, I DD. I hit you, you hit me. I hit you, you die. The only thing that would save you is if you crit, get T-wave hax, or this Mix Latios doesn't have Shadow Ball or Dragon Pulse.
We were talking about a CM lati there, not a mixed one, the cm one would lose to most of those phasers.
I dont know how your doing your calc's, but some of them are fairly far off
A LO Dragon Claw after a single DD with that ev spread does a mere 28-33% on the Support Cress listed in the analysis which isn't even the most common as most run 252 HP and 252 Def just for dealing with Garchomp
The same support Cress does however take 58-68% from LO Draco Meteor while a 252 hp Cress takes 53-62% from that same Draco Meteor
You also mentioned earlier up in this thread about Specs Latios doing 85-100% to 252 Hp Tar in Sandstream however it only does 57-65%.
And as far as the mixed DDance set goes, sure if you list moves that can hurt all of the pokemon you mentioned then of course its going to seem like it cant be stopped, but your only working with one move as the set requires Dragon Dance Dragon Claw and Draco Meteor which only leaves room for one move to help it counter other pokemon and no matter what move it chooses there will still be a counter for the set.
Lord Alchemy, I strongly suggest you to try it out for yourself instead of listing how many counters it can hit super effective. As Maniaclyrasist said, it only gets one move to pick. Clearly you haven't tried him out yet, because he WILL get walled. Every single one of his sets get walled some kind of way. Latios is actually far from overpowered.
Using MetalKids online calculator:
http://www.metalkid.info/Pokemon/OnlineProgram/Calculators/DamageDP.aspx
Might I ask how you're doing it? As far as I know, MetalKids is the most accurate calculator out there. I won't redo all the calcs, because as far as I know, they're all right. This is assuming MetalKids calculator is good.
Well duh. Obviously there is a limit, but there is also a limit to how many Latios counters people will carry. If you have the wrong one compared to its moveset, you're totally fucked. Thats my point. Its a coin toss because of how massive the things move pool is. All the moves I've been calcing are all good options for Latios.
You might stop Latios, you might not. And once a certain counter becomes popular enough, all the Latios user needs to do is switch a single attack and now that counter doesn't work.