Resource SV OU Indigo Disk Viability Ranking Thread - (update on post #1002))

I can't really agree with the 4MSS argument - this just seems like something where you pick the moves that are more favorable for a given team composition. If I'm running ID Zama or another KG check on the team, it can be easier to opt for Brave Bird for the Ogerpon-W / IV MU, while if I'm running some other Oger Checks like Pult or Raging Bolt + something like Gking for Valiant, ID + BP will be easier to run. Personally I think Defog is just bad on most Corv teams barring something like hardcore stall or certain Kyurem teams, as removing your own hazard pressure just feels bad, but it is a move you could feasibly run on BB sets or on teams where momentum isn't as important. And of course there are a few other moves like Iron Head, Theif (gimmicky tech I saw once where Corv could steal something like Boots from another Pokemon after getting Knocked), Spite, etc. but most of this is extremely fringe / niche. I think the standard ID / BP / Roost / U-Turn set gets by in most cases, isn't significantly worse vs Ogerpon-W, and mostly just loses to Valiant (which is mogged by other mons on a Corv team typically).

I am aware you brought up the point of how Corv gets helped by its teammates in this regard, but this sort of symbiosis exist with most of the S-Rank mons. Zama isn't just farming everything with ID + BP - it will have some key weaknesses with its various sets depending on what it runs in its last slot. Yet it accounts for that with help from its teammates. Both of Gliscor's offensive and defensive sets are also similar - SD sets are only so strong because of the external support they have and support sets face a simlar dilemma where you want a billion moves like Toxic, U-Turn, EQ, Knock, Protect, Spikes, Rocks, etc while also having some issues walling a few mons like Raging Bolt or Tusk, but these weaknesses are covered by its teammates.
Your logic around 4mss doesn't really make any sense, 'just pick the moves on corv that fits your team structure' you are completely missing the point, the point is Corviknight does not work as a catch all defensive wall because it lacks the move slots to effectively be a catch all on its own. Which was the main argument on it being S-/S recently (not that it's a valid argument). Corviknight having to choose what it beats because it can't either run BB, Press, U-Turn is objective 4mss, you miss out on a ton of value without BB which you say is just fine? Ok what about any of the Ghost or Fairies or glowking or Tera Ghost on the Pokemon meant to lose to Corv or Woger or Ival? I get the idea is just U-Turn but you go into Corv ID prempetively since it usually has to in a lot of MU's and then they get the momentum lead on your anyways instead of immediately pressuring with BB. This is a common situation for no BB corv against things like Woger, hence why BB is used. Also Corviknight is typically alive in the endgame because it's just a long last Pokemon, so having it be mono Press + U turn is generally pretty risky unless you are sure you don't need Corv to win your end games usually. We have ALL been there were Corv + 1 guy is left in the endgame and we wish Corv had Brave Bird lmfao. Also I generally disagree with the sentiment of you have U-Turn so you cannot be beaten even though you lose the MU. Yes you can, it's called the opponent positioning in a way to force your defensive mon to use utility in recovery or setup. This isn't a "skill issue" or make believe either this is very common, it's not hard to force these situations I mean ABR has been forced to click roost un-wantingly before probably 20,000 times, and if you cannot threaten people trying to punish you for that then it's gonna be an issue.

Also you're reasoning for why Corviknight isn't 4mss is extreme strawman, "Defog is bad because you remove your hazards", yeah that's been a thing for the past 13 years. Hazard pressure is still very strong whether you use Defog or Rapid Spin? You have to time Defog just like how you have to time your Rapid Spins anyways, and it's not like defogging is a net negative for you, it just means you accept the damage trade of hazards on your end vs the opponents end. The game state returns to neutral, there is no individual loss besides not having Rapid Spin which always comes with a tradeoff which means there is no 'just do x instead its better' (paraphrasing). There are less spinners usually and the spinners that are in the game have less longevity than the defoggers and it's generally blocked more often than Defog, even in Gen 9 I'd argue it's blocked as much as Defog due to Tera Ghost/base ghost in the tier, this is the general tradeoff. People have used Defog on even hazard stack in tournament for the past 13 years and have been literally fine, defogging your own hazards to reset the game state in order to have a more favorably position later on does not hinder you. Also this is assuming you are even using Corviknight on hazard stack teams, and here's the usage stats for reference
1748571976200.png


As for the other point, the Pokemon in S- all have good synergy with other Pokemon. This does not at all mean they cannot get high amounts of value on their own, you didn't say this but this is what your reasoning boils down to. In fact you literally admit what I am saying here when you said and I quote "The point about it being less explosive than the other S-Ranks is a bit more compelling since most of them can be very threatening to certain arcehtypes". What I was saying was Corviknights viability comes solely from how it's able to support defensive cores by picking specific Pokemon to beat very consistently, and having it's teammates pick up on the Pokemon it can't beat due to moveslot restraints. All of the Pokemon in S-/S however *can* work very well independently both defensively and offensively. You are implying that the Pokemon only have their S- value due to the teammates support and while teammate support helps, I think we can all agree that Dragonite, Zamazenta, Gholdengo, Gliscor, Kingambit, Great Tusk, and Ting-Lu can do very well for themselves with minimal support in majority matchups. Even in bad matchups Zamazenta has counterplay with Crunch drops or Tera + Sub on ID sets with Body Press outdamaging resistances. Gholdego with Trick or Thunder Wave Crippling or Tera, I could go on. The Pokemon can handle their own issues pretty decently, Corviknight outright loses with no real other outs and this is all ignoring teammates who could make Pokemon like Zamazenta or Dragonite or Gholdengo even more insane. The S- Pokemon like having support because it exemplifies their already great strengths, admist their pretty small list of weaknesses, and also because they just can even if they don't have to be supported greatly to do well. Corviknight REQUIRES the correct defensive teammate support to get mileage. You can't plop Corviknight on a lot BO structures for this reason, it has to be deliberate in builder when used.

As for Gliscor 4mss point, it does suffer from it but not in the same way Corviknight does. Corvknight's goal is defensively walling Pokemon, Gliscor naturally does this with Poison Heal and it's typing. Gliscor has 4mss in it's utility options as of course you want all those nice moves, however this does not hinder Gliscor as a defensive Pokemon. There's very very few scinereo's where Gliscor's 3 move choices does not work for a given situation because Knock Off, Facade, EQ, Toxic, U-Turn value combined is just ridiculous. Corviknight however does have to give up certain matchups when determining it's moveset, unlike Gliscor who functions the same defensively regardless of moveset in like 95% of cases, and that 5% atp is just the normal usual variance. I'd akin Gliscor's 4mss similar to Mandibuzz 4mss where you already defensively handle what you want no matter what but you have to choose between which cake to eat, in regards to the utility moves.
 
Last edited:
This then ties into the next point, the reason why Corviknight has a very strong SPL winrate which is quite simple. Defensive structures in tournament are moderately better because you do not have to worry about having an answer to the general metagame (doing so is a losing battle lol), instead you just need to prepare well for your opponent's common brings / account for how they individually play the game (which in some cases allows you to ignore some MU's entirely due to unlikeliness).
Isn't SPL supposed to be the peak of the OU metagame, the very spot where the metagame gets driven and where the best OU players duke it out, and every other venue of OU play inferior to it in quality? Who cares if Corviknight is only as good as it is due to being used in tournament setting if said setting is the most important setting for OU. Who cares if Corv can't fit on every single team if the teams Corv does fit on do this good against non-Corv teams which constitute 85% of all teams you would face. If anything, I think Corviknight's utility in a tournament setting would be a reason to consider it more viable because its demonstrably useful in a real metagame where top players attempt to counter=team each other and not some hypothetical general metagame that doesn't take into account top player preferences (tldr: in practice > in theory). A mon should be considered viable if it using it can *consistently* increase your chances of winning in a given match, and if Corviknight does that better and more consistent than any other mon, then it should be one of the most viable mons in the metagame.

I apologize if someone already mentioned it since I only skimmed through the last pages, but just to emphasize it again for a little bit, the average non-mirror win-rate for the top 25 mons was about 50% (about what you would expect) and Corviknight's non-mirror win rate was 68. A whopping 2 standard deviations above the mean (if you assume the data is normally distributed). And it's not like Corviknight was some low usage shitter that no one ever bothered to prep for. It was used in 50 non-mirror games with the most mons in the top 25 seeing about 30 non-mirrors and saw usage in about 15% of games. Despite what some people said, that's more than large enough of a sample size of non-mirror games to make a conclusion about Corviknight's viability in the highest quality tournament setting and more than enough usage for Corviknight's win-rate to not solely be due to people underpreparing for it or something. You could show these stats to any lay-person, and they would immediately identify Corv as a premier meta threat to watch out for.

And heck, its not like Corviknight doesn't generate a ton of value even in games where it doesn't have an ideal matchup. Sure I've had games where I wish Corv had Brave Bird, but I've also had several games where I wished that I packed Knock Off on Tusk to knock Boots or Rocky Helmet off or games where I wish the defensive Tusk that I brought was less passive. Like the S-rank pokemon are good don't get me wrong, but with the exception of Ting-Lu and Gliscor, I think you are understating the amount of support that they need to really shine. Like if I don't pack in proper anti-Pech tech for Zam and I run into a well-built Pech team, I'm almost certainly not going to be able to get S-ranked value out of Zam.
 
Isn't SPL supposed to be the peak of the OU metagame, the very spot where the metagame gets driven and where the best OU players duke it out, and every other venue of OU play inferior to it in quality? Who cares if Corviknight is only as good as it is due to being used in tournament setting if said setting is the most important setting for OU. Who cares if Corv can't fit on every single team if the teams Corv does fit on do this good against non-Corv teams which constitute 85% of all teams you would face. If anything, I think Corviknight's utility in a tournament setting would be a reason to consider it more viable because its demonstrably useful in a real metagame where top players attempt to counter=team each other and not some hypothetical general metagame that doesn't take into account top player preferences (tldr: in practice > in theory). A mon should be considered viable if it using it can *consistently* increase your chances of winning in a given match, and if Corviknight does that better and more consistent than any other mon, then it should be one of the most viable mons in the metagame.

I apologize if someone already mentioned it since I only skimmed through the last pages, but just to emphasize it again for a little bit, the average non-mirror win-rate for the top 25 mons was about 50% (about what you would expect) and Corviknight's non-mirror win rate was 68. A whopping 2 standard deviations above the mean (if you assume the data is normally distributed). And it's not like Corviknight was some low usage shitter that no one ever bothered to prep for. It was used in 50 non-mirror games with the most mons in the top 25 seeing about 30 non-mirrors and saw usage in about 15% of games. Despite what some people said, that's more than large enough of a sample size of non-mirror games to make a conclusion about Corviknight's viability in the highest quality tournament setting and more than enough usage for Corviknight's win-rate to not solely be due to people underpreparing for it or something. You could show these stats to any lay-person, and they would immediately identify Corv as a premier meta threat to watch out for.

And heck, its not like Corviknight doesn't generate a ton of value even in games where it doesn't have an ideal matchup. Sure I've had games where I wish Corv had Brave Bird, but I've also had several games where I wished that I packed Knock Off on Tusk to knock Boots or Rocky Helmet off or games where I wish the defensive Tusk that I brought was less passive. Like the S-rank pokemon are good don't get me wrong, but with the exception of Ting-Lu and Gliscor, I think you are understating the amount of support that they need to really shine. Like if I don't pack in proper anti-Pech tech for Zam and I run into a well-built Pech team, I'm almost certainly not going to be able to get S-ranked value out of Zam.
I am not a SPL player or SPL level threat (or even a very good player in general) so I won't pretend I am correct but I do think the idea that SPL is the only thing that really needs to be considered for vr ranking or it even being the most important factor is incorrect. It is definitely a major factor of course but there are other things that need to be considered such as other tournaments, high ladder, and plenty of factors that I am not thinking of at the moment. Just because Corviknight did well here doesn't mean it is suddenly going to do well everywhere else.

I have already talked about Corviknight a couple times in the last few days but I will talk about it for probably the last time just so all of my opinions are here and they aren't being mixed up in talk about Zamazenta as well. Once again, I will not pretend I am a super amazing player and there are probably people who have explained it better so please read their posts as well.

While I do think Corviknight should rise to A+, Corviknight has too many flaws in my opinion to be S- let alone S as I have seen some people try to argue. Corviknight is a very consistent pokemon thanks to its flying steel type combination as well as its great defense, access to defog, and of course roost. In fact, I have been annoyed far more times by the big steel bird than the flying scorpion thing (Gliscor). However, Corviknight suffers heavily from 4mss forcing as it wants brave bird and u turn for STAB and safe pivoting but then also want iron defense and body press for more defensive and offensive pressure.

It also has a terrible match-up into Gholdengo since it doesn't even have neutral coverage to hit Gholdengo with whereas Gholdengo can hit back way harder with shadow ball and can even just use recover if it is ever really in danger. I have mentioned this before as a joke but Zapdos and/or Moltres would be amazing defoggers in this meta because they actually have ways to deal with Gholdengo (if only they still had it ;_;). Meanwhile, Great Tusk can easily threaten Gholdengo with knock off and headlong rush while also boasting that speed tier that just barely out runs it.

Corviknight also can't handle either the heat (or lightning) very well. It loses hard into Raging Bolt, loses even harder into Moltres, and gets absolutely clapped by Zapdos. It also hates being up against Iron Moth, Cinderace, and even the some uu pokemon like Heatran and Rotom Wash. Even excluding electric and fire types, it still has a hard time against some common offensive threats like dragon dance Kyurem (who more often than not runs tera fire/electric blast), some variants of Dragonite (don't you just love fire punch and/or encore), and plenty of others that I am sure I am not thinking of at the moment.

Now that is not to say that Corviknight is bad or anything. As I said it is a consistent defensive defogger that can do quite a bit in almost any game it's in and that is why it should rise to A+. It has plenty of strengths I don't believe I have mentioned such as threatening/walling Great Tusk and being a shining example of why having slow pivots is so important. I just think it has too many flaws, too many bad mus, all of that, which makes it not good enough to rise above A+. Just because it did really well in SPL doesn't mean it instantly becomes S rank material. There is more to it than just major tournament success. We have to look at what the pokemon actually does as well.

Anyway thank you for reading and if I made any mistakes please correct me :)
 
happy pride month

You can check out my explanations for the rises and drops of the recent slate, but I wanna throw in a few extra thoughts rq.

:sv/zamazenta:
While Zama can be argued for a drop, JackRG made valid points and provided replays to help their case, A+ is too drastic. Zamazenta doesn’t break through entire teams, but thats not its job. Zama has a unique set of traits that are valuable on all kinds of Balance/BO/Offense builds. Four things a team needs is speed control, a Gambit check, an Ogerpon check, and a win condition. Zamazenta can take the role of all of these, which justifies its spot in the S ranks. Though Zama doesn’t have tools to force progress (no Knock or rocks), it can deny progress with Iron Defense and Roar. Roar could also put the opponent in positions of getting their mons chipped from hazards repeatedly (can confirm from experience). The other thing I’ve seen players in favor of dropping Zama neglect is that like Dnite, you can cover the matchups your Zama set loses to with 1-2 common partners. FS Glowking deals with Pecha, Waterpon deals with Balance/Stall, etc. The big three, Dnite, Zama, and Ting have one thing in common, they both help massively with offensive pressure, allowing you to more comfortably run breakers to deal with bulkier teams.

Depending on the team, Zama may not be as deadweight as you might think. Take a look at this recent game for example.

IMG_9307.jpeg

Spoilers: Avarice loses this. They loaded up on AoA Zama which matches up poorly vs a team packing Weezing, a Corv, and Mola. But I could imagine this playing out differently if the Zama was Sub Tera Steel. Because it beats everything on zS’s team. Mola, G-Weez can’t break the Sub, the Corv was revealed to have U-Turn and most G-Weez + Corv teams run double Defog, so its setup fodder. Imposter fails vs Substitute, and Ting/Kyurem drop to Body Press.

I think more faith should be put on Sub-ID sets. With Tera Steel or Fire, it beats many of the common checks to Zama. You could even 1v1 Pecha in some instances if Pecha has been Knock’d and rocks are up.

:sv/hatterene:
As of right now, Hatt is B+, but I’ve been thinking that it should rise in the near future. I’ve noticed that Hatt offenses have been picking up in usage on the mid-to-high ladder. Hatterene not only blocks hazards, but also acts like a Primarina that can spread paralysis. Players are becoming more comfortable with exploring other item options on Dnite like Lum or Lefties and Hatt + Lando/Tusk/Treads/Cinder is the perfect core for supporting this goofy ahh dragon. As we see more players actively cover the Dnite matchup, we’ll be seeing more teams further optimizing it.

:sv/ditto:
Might be kinda insane to say that Ditto is C-/C material after already being included in the VR. Ditto has several applications vs both Balance and Offense. Copying Regenerator, infinitely stalling PP, and being anti-cheese insurance. But I think what’s way more important rn is Ditto’s ability to scout. SV OU is known for its set variety, so being able to determine if Tusk has Knock or CC, or if the Ogerpon has Play Rough is a game changer. This also rings true with Ditto’s ability to both scout Dragonite and check it after it loses Multiscale. Ditto was previously disregarded because Booster Energy couldn’t be copied by Ditto, however Moth and Valiant can very much be dealt with defensively anyways.

:sv/iron_moth:
drop this shit further
 
How come prim didnt have any sort of change? Cm sets do very well vs balance/fat teams, while av is pretty splashable for a special tank. Something else rhat helped prim is with how lu is becoming more prominent while bolt and moth are getting lower usage, which were very good at getting past av
 
How come prim didnt have any sort of change? Cm sets do very well vs balance/fat teams, while av is pretty splashable for a special tank. Something else rhat helped prim is with how lu is becoming more prominent while bolt and moth are getting lower usage, which were very good at getting past av
I mean you kind of shouted out a reason why prim is a flawed wallbreaker: lu is more prominent. sure, certain sets force out lu and are able to make progress off of it, but at the same time Primarina is extremely prone to hazards if not running Boots. Prim is kind of forced to play this trade off: do you run boots and miss out on the utility/damage/longevity of AV/Specs/Lefties or do you run non-boots and give up a weakness to hazards

the big problem for prim is its overall lack of longevity due to its reliance on boots and lack of reliable recovery— certain meta shifts like the one above have helped it, but also the raise in viability of HStack structures and slight decrease in offense's viability post moon hurt prim and make an environment that's still about as prim-friendly as it was previously all things considered.

TL:DR, meta shifts have happened but prim is realistically about as good as it was before and still has a lot of the same issues

(edit: realized i messed up my phrasing at the end of the first paragraph sob)
 
why skeledirge is in the B- rank? its a very great defensive pokemon.

(sorry if this question was idiotic, im low ladder so idk what is happening)
It's honestly on the underrated side right now but still has its problems, most notably its typing being really bad for a unaware mon. It often really needs tera to take on boosters like gambit, weavile, dnite, ghold, darkrai, pon, etc. I'd say its best trait is being a really good kyurem switch (especially as a deterent to specs ice spam), which is very valuable in a tier where good ice resists are very hard to come by.
 
It's honestly on the underrated side right now but still has its problems, most notably its typing being really bad for a unaware mon. It often really needs tera to take on boosters like gambit, weavile, dnite, ghold, darkrai, pon, etc. I'd say its best trait is being a really good kyurem switch (especially as a deterent to specs ice spam), which is very valuable in a tier where good ice resists are very hard to come by.
Actually it's pretty good in a vacuum. Fire/Ghost resists all of Poison, Grass, Fire, Ice, Steel, Fairy and Bug while also being immune to Fighting and Normal. It's more so that many of the things it used to check have evolved in a way that make it less capable of walling them in its base form (examples like Iron Val commonly seen with Shadow Ball or Knock Off for example), or things it used to counter being banned (Volcarona being a big one). In earlier metas it wasn't crazy tera reliant and could depend on a Tera of choice to expand its defensive reach on top of its base one, but now that it's more often pressured into Tera it forces the user to consider this when building with it and thus makes it more awkward and limiting to build with.

It is a great DD Kyurem check (barring Tera ground) and is a decent answer to Hydrapple and a hard counter to Cinderace and Iron Moth (lacking TB Ground but that's lol nowadays). Come to think of it Skele also shuts down CM Hatterene completely
 
Personally I feel Dirge is probably B+ in the current metagame. Its probably the most reliable counter to DD Dragonite & DD Kyurem in the tier, while also acting as a solid check to Zama, which I feel certain Balances can get fried by otherwise if they elect to run other mons like Gking. I think its good MUs into other difficult to deal w/ mons like Cinderace and certain Valiant variants is also pretty valuable. It does suck that its a physical wall that doesn't do too well against the big physical attackers in the tier like Kingambit, Great Tusk, Samurott-H, and Ogerpon-W, but on the flipside, none of the aforementioned Pokemon can switch safely thanks to Wisp.
 
:Serperior: -> B / B+

I am a bit mixed on this mon in general because I an not entirely sure if its viability comes from being genuinely good or gambling with Paralysis. Still, with Ogerpon-W apparently rising in popularity, Serp stands as one of its best checks, outspeeding it, crippling it and its partners with Glare, and recovering damage with Synthesis. It's also got other strong tools like Knock off to cripple its counters or Tera Blast to pick and choose what it beats more immediately. I think its value into Garg / Great Tusk / Samu / Ting can't be understated. serperiorr 's post earlier in this thread about its role in the metagame is spot on - only reason I dont consider it A rank is that it gets annoyed by fast U-turn Pokémon and Weavile + 8 Leaf Storm Pp is rough. Synthesis also feels mandatory in current meta so u do not have much room for other moves like Taunf imo.
 
Not going to lie I used to be a major moth hater, but I feel like Specs Moth is so fucking much better its not even funny. Booster feels like trash but specs with Tspikes and Overheat is like butter. I've been having a lot of fun with it, especially as far too many Gargs come in cocky before being blown up by a grass move.

Additionally, what are some of you guys favorite Iron Threads sets? I've been looking for a good utility one, mostly focused on survivability for repeated spins. Any suggestions?
 
Not going to lie I used to be a major moth hater, but I feel like Specs Moth is so fucking much better its not even funny. Booster feels like trash but specs with Tspikes and Overheat is like butter. I've been having a lot of fun with it, especially as far too many Gargs come in cocky before being blown up by a grass move.

Additionally, what are some of you guys favorite Iron Threads sets? I've been looking for a good utility one, mostly focused on survivability for repeated spins. Any suggestions?

I have a couple that can fit on either balance or BO

Iron Treads @ Air Balloon
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Ice Spinner
- Rapid Spin
This set originally had knock over spinner but i needed smth for gliscor and dnite so i figured it would do. Tera Fire is pretty much a remnant of knock off but it can still work against ace and gweezing. Air balloon is really nice to have as a way to check dnite(can rapid spin so you'll never be outsped)

Treading All Over (Iron Treads) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 248 HP / 68 SpD / 192 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Volt Switch
This old set can still do good if you have smth else for gliscor. I went with outspeeding crown since it was a nice benchmark. Volt switch here is great for pivoting purposes.
 
Additionally, what are some of you guys favorite Iron Threads sets? I've been looking for a good utility one, mostly focused on survivability for repeated spins. Any suggestions?

:sv/Iron-Treads:
Iron Treads @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Quark Drive
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 80 HP / 204 Atk / 224 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Spinner
- Volt Switch
- Rapid Spin

This version of Treads is for luring in and taking out bulky Ground types while having some flexibility to pivot. EV spread lets it OHKO Cinderace with Earthquake, outspeed Garchomp before a Rapid Spin, rest in HP. Tera Ice is for extra oomph and type flipping defensively if needed. Boots for getting in when you need to spin hazards or after Tera activation.
 
Additionally, what are some of you guys favorite Iron Threads sets? I've been looking for a good utility one, mostly focused on survivability for repeated spins. Any suggestions?
Iron Treads @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 84 HP / 252 SpD / 172 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Spinner
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin

Speed is for Adamant Ogerpon since it's 319 and Kyurem is 317 so might as well go 320. SpDef Treads has a great matchup into Ghold and Pech while trolling Bolt. Also lets you spin in the face of stray special hits like Darkrai.
 
Additionally, what are some of you guys favorite Iron Threads sets? I've been looking for a good utility one, mostly focused on survivability for repeated spins. Any suggestions?

:sv/iron_treads:
Iron Treads @ Custap Berry
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 144 Atk / 72 Def / 244 SpD / 48 Spe
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Spinner
- Endeavor
- Rapid Spin

Been obsessed with this set. EVs minimize HP stat while living Wellspring Ivy Cudgel and Iron Moth Fiery Dance. It's genuinely extremely effective and won in WCOP.
 
Nominating Ceruledge to rise from B- to B or B+ given it shreds a lot of the balances with Weezing-Galar and fatter teams that don't have a good answer to the Covert Cloak Flash Fire Tera Bug Bulk Up set with Taunt. Yeah, I guess it loses to Dondozo, but Dondozo is a very exploitable mon that is hard to fit onto teams, and you can't convince me that Ceruledge is worse than Dondozo right now, who got fileted in many of its appearances, so Ceruledge deserves to be at B minimum. As for replays, the World Cup of Pokemon thread has many replays showcasing Ceruledge's merits. Just look them up if you aren't convinced.
 
Last edited:
Nominating Ceruledge to rise from B- to B or B+ given it shreds a lot of the balances with Weezing-Galar and fatter teams that don't have a good answer to the Covert Cloak Flash Fire Tera Bug Bulk Up set with Taunt. Yeah, I guess it loses to Dondozo, but Dondozo is a very exploitable mon that is hard to fit onto teams, and you can't convince me that Ceruledge is worse than Dondozo right now, who got fileted in many of its appearances, so Ceruledge deserves to be at B minimum. As for replays, the World Cup of Pokemon thread has many replays showcasing Ceruledge's merits. Just look them up if you aren't convinced.
Im inclined to agree with this. Another thing thats probably been said several times by now (havent checked this thread in a while) is that Ceruledge has seen more usage on hyper offense teams due to its typing being able to spinblock reliably for teams that are really eager to keep up hazards. Not to mention that we already know the mon can snowball out of control especially with tera options such as flying to beat great tusk more reliably, tera blast fairy, or tera fighting giving it stab close combat. Even with its main problems being pretty prominent in the meta such as common physical walls like zamazenta and alomomola being present on lots of structures and also varying priority users, I believe Ceruledge is a very strong option for what all is being used in the current metagame and could for sure be boosted up to B or even B+
 
Agreed on Ceruledge to B+. This mon's been performing absurdly well in WCoP lately and that classic Bulk Up set proves it's still got a lot of life left in it.

But on the topic of WCoP, I'd like to make a couple of very, very, VERY warranted noms:

:ninetales-alola: B --> A- or A
:hatterene: B+ --> A

Veil absolutely dominated WCoP qualifiers and Round 1, as evidenced by the fact that it was brought to 17 games and won 13 of them, amounting to a staggering 76% winrate. Ceruledge featured very prominently on these squads, but by far the most common mon on these Veil teams (besides the obvious A9) is CM Hatterene, which was used on all but one of these Veil teams. It does something virtually irreplaceable for these squads thanks to Magic Bounce while being plenty scary enough to take on H-Samurott, and it's an absolutely devastating bulky wincon in its own right that can quickly snowball out of control. Hatt is virtually as much of a Veil staple as A9 and deserves to be ranked alongside it (but honestly, I think it could be A to Ninetales' A- based on the fact that Hatt's extremely useful on many archetypes beyond just Veil).

This may seem like a bit of a dramatic rise, but for a playstyle that's historically considered to be inconsistent or cheesy this usage/winrate in WCoP it's showing a shocking amount of consistency at an incredibly high level of play.
 
I think moving both Ceruledge and A-tales up a sub-rank is fine enough, and I think moving them up any higher is a bit too pre-emptive. Yes, both of these mons have been doing really well in Wcop so far, but Veil is notoriously inconsistent. We could easily see it fall off a cliff in Round 2, as it has done in the past. I would wait a little linger before raising it higher.

Ceruledge I could 'maybe' see moving up to B+, but I feel every other Pokemon in B+ is more splashable then it, Ceruledge really can only fit on HO and sometimes offense. Its also primarily been featured on Veil and as stated above, Veil is inconsistent.

Hatterene should def move up to A-, that mon is really good rn in enabling stuff.
 
Agreed on Ceruledge to B+. This mon's been performing absurdly well in WCoP lately and that classic Bulk Up set proves it's still got a lot of life left in it.

But on the topic of WCoP, I'd like to make a couple of very, very, VERY warranted noms:

:ninetales-alola: B --> A- or A
:hatterene: B+ --> A

Veil absolutely dominated WCoP qualifiers and Round 1, as evidenced by the fact that it was brought to 17 games and won 13 of them, amounting to a staggering 76% winrate. Ceruledge featured very prominently on these squads, but by far the most common mon on these Veil teams (besides the obvious A9) is CM Hatterene, which was used on all but one of these Veil teams. It does something virtually irreplaceable for these squads thanks to Magic Bounce while being plenty scary enough to take on H-Samurott, and it's an absolutely devastating bulky wincon in its own right that can quickly snowball out of control. Hatt is virtually as much of a Veil staple as A9 and deserves to be ranked alongside it (but honestly, I think it could be A to Ninetales' A- based on the fact that Hatt's extremely useful on many archetypes beyond just Veil).

This may seem like a bit of a dramatic rise, but for a playstyle that's historically considered to be inconsistent or cheesy this usage/winrate in WCoP it's showing a shocking amount of consistency at an incredibly high level of play.
looking through these games most of these were good to great MUs. 13 out of 17 is noteworthy, but very likely is just a flavor of the week deal so to speak. I hardly think 1 week of WCoP is enough to prove that veil somehow belongs in the same tier as corv lmao. That being said I think hatterene deserves to rise to atleast A-.
 
Last edited:
Here is another personal VR. Dont feel great about the Idk cause I havent used them and have only played against Necrozma once, and 0 against Entei. Whimsicott is a bit tricky to rank cause its one of the best non-standard Pokemon in popular RMTs, but yet again it doesnt show up much elsewhere. Pawmot I believe has amazing traits and has show consistency across several non-standard teams throughout the generation, yet I would rather let someone less biased talk about it.

S :Ogerpon-Wellspring::Ting-Lu:
S- :Dragonite::Great Tusk::Kingambit::Zamazenta::gholdengo::gliscor:
A+ :Darkrai::Pecharunt::Dragapult::Iron Valiant::Kyurem:
A :Raging Bolt::Iron Moth::Cinderace::Landorus-Therian::slowking-galar::garganacl:
A- :Hatterene::iron treads::alomomola::corviknight::deoxys-speed:
B+ :iron crown::moltres::zapdos::walking wake::weavile::enamorus::dondozo::clefable::weezing-galar::scizor::tornadus-therian::latios::ceruledge:
B :araquanid::blissey::glimmora::Samurott-Hisui::lokix::primarina::tinkaton::hydrapple::keldeo::sinistcha::heatran::okidogi::garchomp:
B- :ribombee::ninetales::rillaboom::ninetales-alola::toxapex::clodsire::ursaluna::skarmory::manaphy::torkoal::tyranitar::excadrill::venusaur::ogerpon::rotom-wash::Hoopa-Unbound::Ogerpon-Cornerstone:
C+ :meowscarada::comfey::serperior::slither wing::latias::fezandipiti::iron hands::blaziken::iron boulder::skeledirge::pelipper::barraskewda::hydreigon::indeedee::moltres-galar::volcanion:
C :enamorus-therian::kommo-o::hawlucha::mandibuzz::overqwil::cresselia::basculegion::talonflame::lilligant-hisui::kingdra::arcanine-hisui::goodra-hisui:
Does things :greninja::pincurchin::polteageist::amoonguss::chesnaught::pawmot::mimikyu::frosmoth::dudunsparce::charizard::iron jugulis::whimsicott::azumarill::ditto::Grimmsnarl::Jolteon:
I swear it does things :Klefki::Raichu-Alola::Gallade::Mamoswine::diancie::sandy shocks::thundurus-therian::iron leaves::yanmega::magnezone::chansey::armarouge::umbreon::quagsire::breloom::kleavor::cloyster::quaquaval:
Idk :Entei::necrozma:

:Zamazenta:
Speed control, power, a potential wincon able to choose which checks it wants to beat, a Kingambit answer, this guy is of course great. However, it can become "dead weight" rather often. Pecharunt's popularity of course hurts it, but also the rise in popularity of PhysDef Glowking, both of which can choose to bully both sets. Offensive variants will miss one of its coverage moves, which sucks even more when you consider that some of its common switch-ins are pivots, like U-turn Moltres and Flip Turn Mola, while Rocky Helmet Landorus-T, Alomomola, as well as Zapdos and Moltres will condition it really hard.

:Ogerpon-Wellspring:
I firmly believe this is the best Pokemon in the tier. The fact most of its switch-ins in Dragonite, Pecharunt, Zapdos, Sinistcha, and even Zamazenta hate Knock Off is insane, and gives you a path to beat them. Synthesis makes it, an offensive Pokemon, a Ting-Lu switch-in, as well as a Great Tusk and Iron Treads one most of the time. Ivy Cudgel's high crit ratio means Zapdos is always really close to just losing or burning Tera; if you really want to SD can, except when you get really unlucky, beat Pecharunt, weaken it a lot as it pivots, or force Tera, as neither Malignant Chain nor non-Tera +2 Foul Play OHKO it. This means that teammates like Dragonite and Zamazenta can break through them. This all means Wellspring forces progress nearly everytime, considerably more often than Zamazenta imo.

The weakness of hazards and how it often does not find itself in bulkier teams unlike Ting-Lu are "points" against them. The former is something that other offensive Pokemon also have to deal with if they want to fully use their defensive profiles, notably Kingambit, and its not an impossible task to cover as all of Cinderace, Tusk, Ace are great partners, as well as Taunt Landorus-T; it can even run Taunt itself! Not being able to fit on bulkier teams ignores the fact that it is amazing in the teams it features in, which is for sure better than being a glue on said teams (it can be a glue as well).

:Hatterene:
Great support for a lot of offenses. AV in particular means that more pure offenses are willing to use it due to its longevity compared to EButton. Its existence allows for more diversity in the war against hazards, are pure offense is able to deal with them with Taunt support rather than bootspam, or removal. This is on top of its place on screens, sun, HO, TR, Psyspam. Offensive Trick Room sets, both the ones that use it as a Trick Room Pokemon on an otherwise normal team, and the Life Orb sets are both incredibly scary for offensive teams.

:Tornadus-Therian:
Nasty Plot is great at breaking fat and finding space multiple times per game to break through, so its not the end of the world if you miss. Grass Knot and Tera Blast Ground helped a lot in giving life back to this set.

:Heatran:
Pretty good at hard walling most Iron Moth sets, annoys Pecharunt and HexDarts Pult, other good matchups into the likes of Blaze Cinderace, Weezing-G, being hard to switch in, good traits to have rn.

:Indeedee:
Psyspam and TR Psyspam show a decent amount if ladder, way to much to feel like just cheese. Of course the playstyle will remain inconsistent with Rillaboom existing, but the change of direction from Polteageist to Deoxys-S, Iron Crown, and Iron Hands allows this teams to more reliably deal with Kingambit and Ting-Lu.

:Ninetales::Ninetales-Alola:
Both fine playstyles, and both mons can offer their teams enough support, i am not sure if I should be putting them higher. My reasoning for their placement is just how much they can be taken advantage of. Take for example Kyurem which is already hard for Sun to outright switch into it; Ninetales is likely to give it a free DD and depending on Tera Ground or Sub, Hatterene might give it another one. This is one of many extreme examples but the point is that Ninetales does a pretty bad job at avoiding these scenarios without risking itself too much. This is unlike lets say Araquanid, which can cover a lot by itself and its teammates, with really matchup unfriendly Pokemon like Covert Cloak DD Dragonite being way more specific than what Sun and Veil have to deal with.

:Tyranitar:
Pretty good and actually hard to switch into consistently, between Choice Band and Utility sets. Really common mons like Pecharunt and Galarian Slowking giving it free space to click moves goes a long way. One of the most annoying Pokemon in Alomomola has been able to be covered by Hydrapple and Ogerpon-W, both great teams that can shine vs plenty of Mola teams.
 
Last edited:
My man Hoopa-U and Rotom-Wash is in the same viability ranking. Truly a match made in heaven.
People need to recognise the ability of Hoopa-U in clicking buttons. Truly phenomenal and spectaculous.
 
Back
Top