Unpopular opinions

[Bog Monster]

I just think of them by connectivity and transfers.
1-2: game to game (gameboy). Ez
3-5: game to game (gba/ds). These gens have built-in transfers and interactions with each other. Pal park and dual-slot mode in 4; poke-transfer, dream radar cart bonuses, and transfer-only events in 5
6-7: game to bank. Transfers now require external software.
Go, 8-9: game to home. External software is now more than storage, allowing trades and, with the advent of champions, battles.

This also puts VC rby/gsc into gen 7 and lgpe into gen 8.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

I think thats fair. personally i prefer keeping eras beefy, because otherwise i think the early gens would get too fractured with gen 1 and 2 being just one era, gen 3 kinda floating by itself and gen 4 only hanging with gen 5

Gameplay-wise, that's pretty much what happens tho.

Gens 1-2 are wildly different from the rest and even themselves.
Gen 3 is completely isolated as the in-between of the Gameboy and DS era.
Gens 4-5 aren't that different mechanically, so they get to get lumped together.
Gens 6-7 are a 3D era, but they're different from the current era. I'll explain why in a bit.
Gens 8-9 overhaul wild encounters and many other features in the name of planting the seeds for open worlds and more immersion. The results may vary, but the philosophy is there.

Separating them like this make it seem like they're not a massive gap, but again, SwSh is over 5 years old. There has been a design philosophy shift.

 

[Nickeljorn]

I'm glad you pointed that out. It felt like RBY wasn't afraid to make pokemon not a complete utopia unlike the other 8 Regions. It's not anything crazy, but it has a subtle edge to its worldbuilding. Things like the biker gang in the cycling road, who literally threaten to steal your shit illustrate that feeling.
Also, it kinda reminds me of Earthbound and Onett, the town being filled with a gang run by mobsters led by Frank.
Makes more sense when you know that most of the RBY staff also worked on Earthbound.

Playing EarthBound and EarthBound Beginnings (as well as other non-Pokemon RPGs) made me appreciate RBY and their remakes a lot because it explains not only story elements in RBY that are different from later games like you mentioned but gameplay too, like TMs being single use made more sense to me once I saw RBY as late in life Gameboy games and not part of a franchise as huge as Pokemon is now.

I just think of them by connectivity and transfers.
1-2: game to game (gameboy). Ez
3-5: game to game (gba/ds). These gens have built-in transfers and interactions with each other. Pal park and dual-slot mode in 4; poke-transfer, dream radar cart bonuses, and transfer-only events in 5
6-7: game to bank. Transfers now require external software.
Go, 8-9: game to home. External software is now more than storage, allowing trades and, with the advent of champions, battles.

This also puts VC rby/gsc into gen 7 and lgpe into gen 8.

Why would the VC versions be gen 7 if the process is the same as transferring from gen 5 (select the game from the menu, only your first box, etc)

 

[Mad Ram]

I just think of them by connectivity and transfers.
1-2: game to game (gameboy). Ez
3-5: game to game (gba/ds). These gens have built-in transfers and interactions with each other. Pal park and dual-slot mode in 4; poke-transfer, dream radar cart bonuses, and transfer-only events in 5
6-7: game to bank. Transfers now require external software.
Go, 8-9: game to home. External software is now more than storage, allowing trades and, with the advent of champions, battles.

This also puts VC rby/gsc into gen 7 and lgpe into gen 8.

I think this general system is the closest to an actual "eras system" for the games, at least from a gut perspective. I especially think it is fair to break up the "early 3D era" with "modern 3D era" if only because of the more risks they've been willing to take in regards to how the game plays. XY and ORAS are definitely not really in the same boat as SwSh, L:A, or SV unless you're one of those people who claim this was the beginning of the death of the franchise and it's been one long decline

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Y'all will probably call me crazy for this but...

Bug is not the worst type in the game.

I've been seeing many people talk about Bug as it's completely unviable, but I think a lot of it is still related to mons like Beedrill, Ledian, and Spidops, who are just weak no matter how you slice it.

If you look at the bigger picture though, Bug has been getting some insane moves over the years, and it's going to get out of hand at some point.

• U-Turn has been a very strong move since Gen 4, it's so good, it's theorized to be the only reason Fairy resists Bug.
• Bug has many moves that are guaranteed to debuff opponents, which is interesting with how much powercreep has been an issue lately. They range from weak, in-game options like Pounce, and Struggle Bug to competitively viable like Lunge, Sticky Web, and, to some extent (90% accuracy), Skitter Smack.
• Lunge, in particular, has been on my radar for a minute. That move is insane. Solid, reliable damage, and it's a guaranteed Attack drop? That's pretty wild.

There are a lot of Bug mons that are outright bad, no question about it, but what about the ones that aren't?
Scizor just made it back to OU, and it's not like Volcarona is bad either. There are other examples in other tiers, such as Heracross.

Bug has been forming a strong identity over the years, and it's interesting to see how it'll pan out. Right now, I'd put it over Ice and Rock tbh, and around the same tier as Normal.

 

[bdt2002]

Well, well, well. What do we have here? A discussion about the different eras of Pokémon? I love this topic. Thing is, there’s a lot of different ways to do this, and none of them are strictly wrong answers. I’ve said it several times by this point and I’ll say it as many times as I have to. The way that I prefer to divide these up isn’t by console generation or, well, Pokémon generation (and even then it seems like the Switch games specifically are trying to move away from the conventional definition of a Pokémon generation) but instead by the person or people that worked on the games and all the other media of that time. When you look at the lead directors of each new “generation” in particular, you get a pattern like this:

• Gens 1-2: Led by Satoshi Tajiri
• Gens 3-6: Led by Junichi Masuda
• Gens 7-present: Led by Shigeru Ohmori

The specific people and their names are one part of this, sure, but what you really want to pay attention to is what was happening with the franchise as an I.P. during each of these time frames. For example: the rise of Pokémon’s mobile and free-to-start game markets as a sort of “replacement” for many of the spin-off games we saw during the so-called “Masuda Era” is largely synonymous with the “Ohmori Era”, specifically from 2016 to present day. Most of the most popular spin-off series- Mystery Dungeon, Colloseum, Ranger, PokéPark, Rumble to a lesser extent (World and especially the discontinued Rush feel like Ohmori Era games)… almost all of those were Masuda Era games.

Something else that doesn’t get talked about a lot is how similar Gen 7 is to Gens 8 and 9. Yearly releases are most criticized on Switch, but this trend goes back to Sun & Moon. You know what else was supposed to originally start in Alola? Dexit. X & Y have a somewhat similar issue to this, but this is helped by the fact that every Pokémon not available in X & Y is technically available in at least one form in ORAS (provided a handful are exclusive to the Mirage Spots which are heavily dependent on StreetPass and the Internet). To my knowledge, the combination of all four Alola versions still doesn’t allow you to get all 802 or whatever the number was at that point. I do believe there are still some Pokémon missing that aren’t Mythicals. Speaking of Alola’s four games, Ultra Sun & Ultra Moon remind me of the DLCs for SwSh and SV respectively- three year release pattern started with ORAS, tons of returning Legendaries locked behind some kind of new item or minigame, and there’s at least some extra emphasis on the postgame in all of these whereas their base games focused almost entirely on the main stories, much like Kanto, Hoenn, and Kalos did back in the day.

I understand this post was a lot of word salad so here’s a quick rundown of what every Directorial Era of Pokémon is or can be known for:

• The Tajiri Era: Obviously was the start of the franchise, largely synonymous with the Game Boy and Game Boy Color, the anime was originally going to wrap up with the Mewtwo movie, and basically every spin-off is an N64 game. This era is what people think of when the term “Pokémania” comes up. Kanto and Johto’s connections to each other need no introduction, though the Johto Pokémon get the short end of the stick in many cases. This was also the era that played host to Pokémon’s most notorious Type of all time, Gen 1 Psychic, and had different stat mechanics than later generations would become known for, a change that also reflects in Gen 2’s Shiny Pokémon introduction and mechanics.

• The Masuda Era: The longest era of the three in duration so far, lasting until either 2014 or 2016 depending on when you consider the Ohmori Era to have started (either with ORAS or SM). This is when most people around my age group and many others would consider the golden age of Pokémon to have taken place. This era was when the third version games started focusing on “restricted Legendaries” (Suicune in Crystal doesn’t count) and was also the first one to have remakes. FireRed & LeafGreen and HeartGold & SoulSilver link to each other just like how Ruby & Sapphire links to Diamond & Pearl. Later in this era, X & Y would share many similarities with Gen 3, a pattern that would ultimately culminate in ORAS’s role as a “Passing of the Torch” between this era and the next one. The spin-offs of this era were already mentioned.

• The Ohmori Era: Should this era continue into and through 2026-28, this will at worst tie the length of the previous era. As mentioned previously, mobile games and free-to-starts have largely taken over traditional spin-offs by this point, and remakes have replaced to some extent by the Legends games which started during this era. Ash’s tenure as the anime’s main star finally came to an end here, and Journeys could be seen as a sort of sequel/successor to the Alola anime. Third versions have been replaced by the Ultra games and the DLCs respectively (I would imagine USUM would have been DLCs if Alola was one of the Switch regions alongside what would become Galar and Paldea).

 

[bdt2002]

FireRed & LeafGreen and HeartGold & SoulSilver link to each other just like how Ruby & Sapphire links to Diamond & Pearl. Later in this era, X & Y would share many similarities with Gen 3, a pattern that would ultimately culminate in ORAS’s role as a “Passing of the Torch” between this era and the next one.

I apologize for the double post, but I wanted to include an extra snippet of sorts to talk about ORAS. Most of the time I would consider Sun & Moon to have been the official start of the Ohmori Era but some of what that era would become known for actually started here. By definition these are still Masuda Era games directed by Shigeru Ohmori, and I believe this to be intentional based on developer comments from Junichi Masuda himself in the 2010s when asked about Ohmori’s role as Masuda’s “successor”, as he referred to him as.

As luck would have it, ORAS happen to be some of my favorite games in the franchise and some of the only games I could reasonably see giving Guardian Signs my beloved a run for its money for the ultimate top spot outright. Oh hey they even referenced it with the Soaring minigame, I knew I loved this game for a reason! This kind of “Passing of the Torch” isn’t something we’ve really seen from any game before or since unless you count Crystal (and even then it’s still somewhat up in the air), and the reason this works so well is because players get the best of both eras when games like this come out. We saw something similar to this happen with 2017’s Super Mario Odyssey, a game that saw many developers and ideas return from Super Mario 3D World while also representing Odyssey’s own director upgrade from co-director of last 3D game to “Now I’m allowed to fully explore my career role and make my own style reminiscent of the nonlinear 3D Mario games”, in comparison to the Galaxy games and the 3D sub-series. And we all know how good Odyssey was in terms of popularity and sales.

The two year stretch between ORAS and Sun & Moon was a notably one of the most unique in the core series’s history at the time, too. It was the last time until 2024 where we didn’t get a new Pokémon… anything for the core series during a specific year, and we saw both free-to-start spin-offs (Rumble World and Shuffle) and traditional spin-offs (Super Mystery Dungeon) in 2015. Speaking of 2015, Pokémon Z. Uh… where is it? The absence and rumored cancellation of an upper version and/or sequels for Kalos, possibly similar to Unova’s own sequels, remains a popular topic of discussion that’s only just recently being acknowledged with Pokémon Legends ZA on the horizon. Pokémon Z wasn’t the only game we the fans got robbed of, though. Eagle-eyed Hoenn fans may have spotted story details in the Delta Episode and the rest of the postgame of ORAS that seem to suggest that, in the ORAS universe of Hoenn, the events of Pokémon Emerald take place after those of the first two versions as opposed to the original “third version” role. “Pokémon Delta Emerald” was even straight-up granted its own trademark in 2015, an honor that not even Pokémon Z was given back then, and overall I just find it a funny and strange coincidence that Rayquaza and Zygarde have so much in common anyway. Neither of these games would come to light, unfortunately, at least on 3DS.

Key Questions:

• Would you count ORAS as a Masuda Era game, an Ohmori Era game, or count it for both? (My answer: Both)
• If you could only pick one, would you have preferred Pokémon Z or Pokémon Delta Emerald to become a real game and likely the final Gen 6 game by extension? (My answer: Delta Emerald)
• Do you think it is at all possible that Legends ZA could have the ORAS treatment and possibly be the start of the fourth Directorial Era? (My answer: Possibly but probably not)

 

[Adeleine]

Y'all will probably call me crazy for this but...

Bug is not the worst type in the game.

I've been seeing many people talk about Bug as it's completely unviable, but I think a lot of it is still related to mons like Beedrill, Ledian, and Spidops, who are just weak no matter how you slice it.

If you look at the bigger picture though, Bug has been getting some insane moves over the years, and it's going to get out of hand at some point.

• U-Turn has been a very strong move since Gen 4, it's so good, it's theorized to be the only reason Fairy resists Bug.
• Bug has many moves that are guaranteed to debuff opponents, which is interesting with how much powercreep has been an issue lately. They range from weak, in-game options like Pounce, and Struggle Bug to competitively viable like Lunge, Sticky Web, and, to some extent (90% accuracy), Skitter Smack.
• Lunge, in particular, has been on my radar for a minute. That move is insane. Solid, reliable damage, and it's a guaranteed Attack drop? That's pretty wild.

There are a lot of Bug mons that are outright bad, no question about it, but what about the ones that aren't?
Scizor just made it back to OU, and it's not like Volcarona is bad either. There are other examples in other tiers, such as Heracross.

Bug has been forming a strong identity over the years, and it's interesting to see how it'll pan out. Right now, I'd put it over Ice and Rock tbh, and around the same tier as Normal.

The 'Bug unviable' and 'Ice unviable' people are just stuck in Gen3/4 (or discourse that originated from that time, or earlier). In addition to what you mentioned, HDB has been big for Bug.

I'd roughly tier the types like this. (unordered within tier)

 

[War Incarnate]

The 'Bug unviable' and 'Ice unviable' people are just stuck in Gen3/4 (or discourse that originated from that time, or earlier). In addition to what you mentioned, HDB has been big for Bug.

I'd roughly tier the types like this. (unordered within tier)

View attachment 753167

I'll be honest - Poison being in "Underpowered" is kind of crazy. It has a decent amount of resists and only two weaknesses (one of which is a top tier type, the other is... bleh) - is it because of its lacking offensive coverage? (strange, since hitting Fairy super-effectively is quite big!) Or some other reason?

If this was pre-Gen 6 discourse I'd see an argument about Poison being underwhelming as a type, but I'd like to see your reasoning for putting Poison in particular as low as you have considering the changes that have been made since then.

 

[Bakugames]

Hold on im lost are we talking about the types overall, casual only or competitive only

 

[bdt2002]

The 'Bug unviable' and 'Ice unviable' people are just stuck in Gen3/4 (or discourse that originated from that time, or earlier). In addition to what you mentioned, HDB has been big for Bug.

I'd roughly tier the types like this. (unordered within tier)

View attachment 753167

I’m going to have to disagree with some of this about the Bug-Type but not all of it. I made what I guess you could call a “statistical aggregate” ranking of every single Type in the modern Type chart, and I while I don’t believe Scarlet & Violet to have a definitive worst Type especially in an environment with Terastalizing as a mechanic- in fact, some Types are arguably better as a Tera Type than a regular Type- I do believe Gen 9 to be a somewhat low point for the Bug-Type relative to other generations.

The issue here isn’t with Heavy-Duty Boots- unpopular opinion within an opinion, but I think Bug-Types should be able to absorb Sticky Web like Poison can for Toxic Spikes- or with any of the type matchups, but with the Pokémon themselves. If we’re going off of Smogon’s tiers, in fact, the Bug-Type actually had the most OU and/or Ubers Pokémon it’s ever had during Gens 4 and 5 with as many as five a piece at a time. The Bug-Type is one of those Types where the matchup spread doesn’t tell the whole story, and if you look at the roster, the Pokémon seem to back this up: Forretress was a four-time OU member prior to Gen 6, Scizor was buffed to freaking moon in Platinum and had people calling for tiering action during its prime, Volcarona and Genesect lead a stacked cast of Gen 5 Bug-Types across various tiers, and even Gens 2-3 OU Bug Heracross ended up as one of the better Gen 4 UUBLs after starting Diamond & Pearl in OU and getting a real Ubers niche for the first time as a Darkrai answer. All of this, by the way, while entry hazards and passive damage were stronger than ever before, other Types around Bug got stronger, and Heracross and Ninjask would both lose their Gen 4 OU status over time and Heracross would become UU prior in Gen 5, which is still solid I think.

By comparison, Bug-Types lost a lot of tools on the Nintendo Switch. Heavy-Duty Boots might help against Stealth Rock, which is fair, but it does so at the cost of indirectly nerfing Sticky Web. The Ultra Beasts got Dexited from Scarlet & Violet and Mega Evolutions aren’t there or in Sword & Shield, so there goes some of the best modern Bug-Types by default. Volcarona and a buffed Araquanid are entirely carrying the Bug typing in Scarlet & Violet’s meta now, and that’s all without mentioning how Fairies resist U-Turn, how several physical Bug-Types either lack or lost good physical boosting moves to match Quiver Dance, or the fact that Bug, as one of the worst offensive Types in the game, can be taken advantage of in that aspect with common defensive Tera Types that your opponent may already be running for other threats anyways such as Fire, Poison, Steel, or Flying. Overall, I don’t quite thing Bug is the worst Type in the games right now, and I also don’t believe Bug is anywhere near as bad as it was back in Gen 1, but this is definitely the worst it’s been in quite some time, at least in Singles. I’m not totally sure about Doubles, but many Bugs don’t enjoy the Tailwind mechanics, Max Airstreams, and defensive Tera Types of Gens 8 and 9 VGC. That, and two of the best Psychic-Types block Lokix’s First Impression (Armor Tail Farigiraf and Psychic Surge Indeedee) with their Abilities so that’s pretty unfortunate.

On my aggregate rankings I had said I made, I came up with five Types in contention for the bottom spot. My Bottom Tier ended up with Bug, Grass, Normal, Ice, and surprisingly Psychic (and Poison prior to Gen 6) as the worst Types each for their own reasons. Grass and Bug have a lot of the same issues, but Grass has slightly better weighted matchups against Water, Electric, and Ground while both types have the worst offensive matchup record and are tied with Normal for their worst matchup performance overall. Ice is included for being the worst defensive Type by far, though it too has better weighted matchups and benefits more than Bug from Heavy-Duty Boots and even has its own field condition (Hail/Snow). Psychic rounds out the bottom tier with its weighted weaknesses to Ghost and Dark as well as being one of only two Types alongside Grass with a losing record on both offense and defense. Psychic Terrain was also nerfed in Gen 8 and the Calyrexes do like 95 percent of the heavy lifting for this Type in restricted metas.

 

[Heatranator]

The only underpowered type is Psychic. They have some things like psychic noise and future sight, but every other type is better by a decent amount (poison is amazing defensively once you look past the ground weakness and many useful status moves, rock has multiple moves that define metas (stealth rock, rock slide) and good pokemon in said category (tyranitar, garganacl) that use the good attributes of rock).
If you really think about it, psychic is really just something that most mons that have it try to overcome. Really the only mons that like the typing are the fairy/psychic types, and even then stuff like the dark neutrality are a downside.

 

[Adeleine]

I probably only have so much energy for digging into the nitty gritty of type stuff - if I don't respond to someone that is probably why - but here we go.

(Part 1)

Hold on im lost are we talking about the types overall, casual only or competitive only

My views are only about singles competitive

I'll be honest - Poison being in "Underpowered" is kind of crazy. It has a decent amount of resists and only two weaknesses (one of which is a top tier type, the other is... bleh) - is it because of its lacking offensive coverage? (strange, since hitting Fairy super-effectively is quite big!) Or some other reason?

If this was pre-Gen 6 discourse I'd see an argument about Poison being underwhelming as a type, but I'd like to see your reasoning for putting Poison in particular as low as you have considering the changes that have been made since then.

Micro-Level View:

1) Majority of its resists are low value (Bug, Grass, and Itself are 3/5)
2) It is not only weak to a top tier offensive type, but a common and top tier offensive coverage type, which undermines its defensive profile even more than it looks like
3) Dreadful physical attack options. 80% "accurate" mainstream option, and some don't even get that. Stone Edge has amazing coverage to justify that, Gunk Shot doesn't.
4) Hitting one good type does not mean it has replacement-level offensive coverage. By this logic, Bug (Dark) and Grass (Water; Ground) have good coverage. Five resists/immune (including to three of the best types in the game) and two SE is still a bad profile, even when one of the SE is a good type.
5) Having an immunity against Poison, and it being the best defensive type in a game, makes the type a lot less safe to click on offense in general.

Macro-Level View:

Poison has bottom-tier potential for positive impact in a game. It has one positive matchup against an above-average type in Fairy, which top-tier Steel also covers well, both offensively and defensively. Besides this one positive matchup, what is Poison doing? Its other resistances are mostly filler (even Fighting is just average), its other offensive coverage is horrible, its offensive options are poor-to-average, and its closest thing to unique traits (more access to Toxic Spikes, clearing Toxic Spikes without using a move, more access to Toxic) are very situational.

Compare types in the tier above. Bug has bad generalist defense but Poison was merely decent anyway, and Bug has a vastly better movepool for offense and utility. Grass has two positive top-tier matchups versus one and way bigger utility, including the threat of sun offense. Normal has a much more important and unique defensive matchup against Ghost, and generally has more moves to work with, like physical STAB that doesn't miss and hurts stuff. Ice is generally scary to deal with.

 

[bdt2002]

The only underpowered type is Psychic. They have some things like psychic noise and future sight, but every other type is better by a decent amount (poison is amazing defensively once you look past the ground weakness and many useful status moves, rock has multiple moves that define metas (stealth rock, rock slide) and good pokemon in said category (tyranitar, garganacl) that use the good attributes of rock).
If you really think about it, psychic is really just something that most mons that have it try to overcome. Really the only mons that like the typing are the fairy/psychic types, and even then stuff like the dark neutrality are a downside.

In my post above I mentioned that Grass and Psychic are the only Types that have a losing record both offensively and defensively. Ironically, part of what made Gen 1 Psychic so dominant for so long was that it remains the only Type in any Type chart to have a WINNING record both offensively and defensively, even if just barely. The thing is with both Grass and Psychic, though, is that I would argue they’re at their strongest as utility Types rather than dedicated offensive or defensive use. Tera Grass is one of the best defensive Tera Types in the game in my opinion but that’s only specifically as a Tera Type, and outside of Teal Mask Ogerpon being one of the weaker forms, I can’t remember the last time I’ve seen someone run a Tera Psychic Pokémon on the OU ladder.

Utility, though? Things are noticeably better, and unfortunately held back by the rises of Ghost and to a lesser extent Dark’s offensive spread. Two of the best utility moves in the game, Spore and post-buff Teleport, are these Types. The Terrains may have been nerfed, sure, but gradual healing and especially priority blocking are both excellent tools to have. Moves you mentioned like Psychic Noise and Future Sight thrive off of their respective utility, and Grass and healing and healing have always gone together nicely.

Psychic’s Problems from the perspective of an uneducated guy who has this as one his top three favorite types alongside water and poison:

• Weak to common attacks like U-Turn and Knock Off (and Pursuit prior to Gen 8)
• Poor matchup spreads offensively and defensively
• Several prominent nerfs over various generations
• Not nearly as many new Poison-Types added in newer generations, specifically compared to Gen 1
• Fairy gives Psychic competition for the role of Fighting check
• Generally low base power attacks with more emphasis on utility
• Low amount of parity between top-tier Pokémon of this Type

 

[Heatranator]

In my post above I mentioned that Grass and Psychic are the only Types that have a losing record both offensively and defensively. Ironically, part of what made Gen 1 Psychic so dominant for so long was that it remains the only Type in any Type chart to have a WINNING record both offensively and defensively, even if just barely. The thing is with both Grass and Psychic, though, is that I would argue they’re at their strongest as utility Types rather than dedicated offensive or defensive use. Tera Grass is one of the best defensive Tera Types in the game in my opinion but that’s only specifically as a Tera Type, and outside of Teal Mask Ogerpon being one of the weaker forms, I can’t remember the last time I’ve seen someone run a Tera Psychic Pokémon on the OU ladder.

Utility, though? Things are noticeably better, and unfortunately held back by the rises of Ghost and to a lesser extent Dark’s offensive spread. Two of the best utility moves in the game, Spore and post-buff Teleport, are these Types. The Terrains may have been nerfed, sure, but gradual healing and especially priority blocking are both excellent tools to have. Moves you mentioned like Psychic Noise and Future Sight thrive off of their respective utility, and Grass and healing and healing have always gone together nicely.

Psychic’s Problems from the perspective of an uneducated guy who has this as one his top three favorite types alongside water and poison:

• Weak to common attacks like U-Turn and Knock Off (and Pursuit prior to Gen 8)
• Poor matchup spreads offensively and defensively
• Several prominent nerfs over various generations
• Not nearly as many new Poison-Types added in newer generations, specifically compared to Gen 1
• Fairy gives Psychic competition for the role of Fighting check
• Generally low base power attacks with more emphasis on utility
• Low amount of parity between top-tier Pokémon of this Type

IDT grass is bad. Definitely lower tier, but the utility is what makes it stand out (also having a winning mu against water and ground, two great types, is really good).

1) Majority of its resists are low value (Bug, Grass, and Itself are 3/5)
2) It is not only weak to a top tier offensive type, but a common and top tier offensive coverage type, which undermines its defensive profile even more than it looks like
3) Dreadful physical attack options. 80% "accurate" mainstream option, and some don't even get that. Stone Edge has amazing coverage to justify that, Gunk Shot doesn't.
4) Hitting one good type does not mean it has replacement-level offensive coverage. By this logic, Bug (Dark) and Grass (Water; Ground) have good coverage. Five resists/immune (including to three of the best types in the game) and two SE is still a bad profile, even when one of the SE is a good type.
5) Having an immunity against Poison, and it being the best defensive type in a game, makes the type a lot less safe to click on offense in general.

Resisting bug IDT is too low value, but sure. However, resisting fairy and fighting is big. Fighting is a pretty good type but fairy is prob top three minimum.
Yes, it's weak to ground, but that's really its only weakness. And secondary typings such as grass and flying are really good pairings with it because of that.
Gunk shot's main thing is that 30% poison rate, which means typings such as ground still don't like switching in. And sludge bomb is just a really good special attacking option.
While poisons offensive coverage isn't amazing, hitting fairy does raise it up a bit.
A big thing I think people are overlooking is the utility of poison. Toxic is a incredibly dominant move and toxic spikes can define entire tiers at times and shut down complete playstyles if they don't have an absorber (which hey, is poison types, so another point for poison)

Poison is the definition of mid tier typing, yes it's not going to wow you with powerful attacks or insane defensive merits like steel, but it does decently in both. Combine that with the utility it provides, and I cannot put it low tier, it's just way better then typings such as ice (which yes, is pretty great offensively, but flounders incredibly hard defensively and even offensively struggles decently hard against top tier types such as steel, fire and water if no freeze dry).

 

[Frostbiyt]

I'll grant that bug has good utility in its offensive moves, but it is mostly propped up by U-turn, a move whose bug typing is usually incidental. Not a lot of pokemon run bug moves for coverage. The biggest thing that bug has going for it offensively is giving STAB to U-turn. While its SE spread is unique, it's just not very good. Bug's defensive properties are done better by Flying, Poison, and even Grass, with Flying being nearly a strict upgrade.

I also agree that Poison is underrated, it is definitely a mid-tier type. The combination of a decent defensive spread, immunity to toxic/poison, and access to moves that have a high chance of spreading poison make it a really solid type for bulky mons.

My list, off the top of my head:
S: Steel, Fairy
A: Water, Ground, Dark
B: Fire, Ghost, Dragon, Electric
C: Flying, Poison, Fighting, Grass
D: Normal, Psychic
F: Bug, Rock, Ice
These are ordered within each tier from best to to worst.

 

[Adeleine]

Part 2

By comparison, Bug-Types lost a lot of tools on the Nintendo Switch. Heavy-Duty Boots might help against Stealth Rock, which is fair, but it does so at the cost of indirectly nerfing Sticky Web.

I guess. I'd still call it a net positive, since Web is better in OU and Ubers rn than in (pre-HDB) Gen7, and especially because HDB eases U-turn pivoting + many Bugs are 4x SR weak, but it's at least mixed.

The Ultra Beasts got Dexited from Scarlet & Violet and Mega Evolutions aren’t there or in Sword & Shield, so there goes some of the best modern Bug-Types by default.

This isn't a fault of the type itself, and not something I care about when evaluating types.

Volcarona and a buffed Araquanid are entirely carrying the Bug typing in Scarlet & Violet’s meta now,

Nope. Ribombee would be Uber by usage (>7%!). Scizor is OU. Lokix and Slither Wing are UU, and Yanmega is RUBL. Many other Bug-types would be high tier if they weren't Dexited. (As above, I don't hold it against the type that its guys got Dexited.) The type is clearly workable in top-level play.

how several physical Bug-Types either lack or lost good physical boosting moves to match Quiver Dance,

Not correct. Of the 9 fully-evolved Bug-types with over 80 Attack (including Scyther; excluding Forretress), 8 have SD. The sole remaining, Slither Wing, at least has Bulk Up.

Even if it was correct, it doesn't really make sense as a criticism. Tons of types lack good boosting on their guys physically, specially, or both. QD being so good doesn't mean an average situation on the physical end would become a weakness.

Or the fact that Bug, as one of the worst offensive Types in the game, can be taken advantage of in that aspect with common defensive Tera Types that your opponent may already be running for other threats anyways such as Fire, Poison, Steel, or Flying.

Seems believable. I consciously choose to not interact with Tera so like, I don't have a meaningful opinion, but it checks out.

Resisting bug IDT is too low value, but sure. However, resisting fairy and fighting is big. Fighting is a pretty good type but fairy is prob top three minimum.
Yes, it's weak to ground, but that's really its only weakness. And secondary typings such as grass and flying are really good pairings with it because of that.

You're missing the macro-level point that Steel does this better. Steel is a Fairy check that dies to Ground too, but it matches up better against the field. Steel has some other weaknesses, but that's okay, since it pairs with secondary types much better than Poison does (such as Grass and Flying, too... and Bug. And Fairy. Don't forget Dragon and Water. Also Dark and Ghost. And Ground. Also Electric.)

Poison isn't fully outclassed, but it's a bad sign it's fighting so hard in what's supposed to be its niche (Fairy-checking in specific, defense in general).

Toxic is a incredibly dominant move

This is misinformation on the internet. It's just not true. The spotlight Toxic users in singles now are B-rank OU washouts like Toxapex and Clodsire. Nobody's falling head over heels for it anytime soon. Many decent or good mons with Toxic (e.g. Etern, Gliscor, Revavroom, Weezing Galar) like to skip it for other utility moves (like Recover, Knock Off, Shift Gear, WoW resp.). High ladder Gliscor runs Toxic under 1/3rd of the time, it just has better to do, and the other listed guys run Toxic even less.

rock has multiple moves that define metas (stealth rock, rock slide)

Rock has zero moves that define singles, the format that I care about. Stealth Rock is quite good and common but hardly defines the format in a HDB world.

and good pokemon in said category (tyranitar, garganacl) that use the good attributes of rock).

Rock, more than any other type, depends on signature abilities and moves and gimmicks, a crutch which makes me evaluate it pretty poorly. Garg has a tremendously powerful defensive ability and is still a poster child for Terastallization so it can drop Rock's many weaknesses - imagine if it was just a good defensive type to start with! Iron Boulder and Ogerpon needed special signature attacks to not die to Stone Edge misses, and they still both miss OU. Your best Rock-type not depending on a signature is, like, Tyranitar and Arcanine-Hisui, which still need special rare treats (Sand Stream, or Rock Head + STAB Head Smash) to eke out a UU B rank. As I'm hinting, even with all this under-the-counter help, the better Rock-types are still middling, usually milling around in the UU basement or lower. Compare this to Ribombee for Bug, which needed no signature traits to be Ubers "by usage".

I'd mention the Rock-types that needed gimmicks to be Ubers viable but there aren't any Rock-types that are Ubers viable. It and Grass share that demerit.

I'll grant that bug has good utility in its offensive moves, but it is mostly propped up by U-turn, a move whose bug typing is usually incidental.

It isn't. Sticky Web, Quiver Dance, and First Impression would like a word. And Bug beating a top-tier type in Dark. There are just plenty of great and solid Bug-types (many of which are Dexited, no fault of the type), which proves they can definitely do stuff one way or another.

 

[Frostbiyt]

It isn't. Sticky Web, Quiver Dance, and First Impression would like a word. And Bug beating a top-tier type in Dark. There are just plenty of great and solid Bug-types (many of which are Dexited, no fault of the type), which proves they can definitely do stuff one way or another.

Personally I don't really consider moves like QD and sticky web when evaluating a type, since those moves' typing is 100% flavor. And yeah, First Impression is an excellent move, but how many pokemon get it? Literally every type has great mons, most types have more than bug does, now and in previous gens.

I'd also like to make a distinction between evaluating whether a type is good vs whether a type has good pokemon. In the latter case, QD and sticky web do matter, since they are mostly only given to Bug types. However, good Bug types are rare compared to most other types. For the former case, I consider whether a pokemon of this type would be better off with a different type, depending on its roll. For bug, the answer to this question would be yes for most pokemon.

 

[Heatranator]

You're missing the macro-level point that Steel does this better. Steel is a Fairy check that dies to Ground too, but it matches up better against the field. Steel has some other weaknesses, but that's okay, since it pairs with secondary types much better than Poison does (such as Grass and Flying, too... and Bug. And Fairy. Don't forget Dragon and Water. Also Dark and Ghost. And Ground. Also Electric.)

Poison isn't fully outclassed, but it's a bad sign it's fighting so hard in what's supposed to be its niche (Fairy-checking in specific, defense in general).

Yes, steel competes with poison, no doubt about it. But IDT that automatically makes it 'bad' persay. Like, resisting fairy is still really good, being resistant to fighting is also good. Again, middle of the road, its attributes still make it work well, and it doesn't have large flaws other typings like psychic have where there poisitive traits are incredibly singular while the negatives are extremely harsh, with the unique points not being massive.
Also Poison isn't even a bad typing to pair secondary with. (Flying does well, grass does well, fairy does well, dragon does well, ghost does well, dark does exceptionally well, ground does well, fighting does well).
A 'shitty steel' is still a steel in a way. Yes, you probably will want steel more, but if you can't, well, it still does the job very well.

This is misinformation on the internet. It's just not true. The spotlight Toxic users in singles now are B-rank OU washouts like Toxapex and Clodsire. Nobody's falling head over heels for it anytime soon. Many decent or good mons with Toxic (e.g. Etern, Gliscor, Revavroom, Weezing Galar) like to skip it for other utility moves (like Recover, Knock Off, Shift Gear, WoW resp.). High ladder Gliscor runs Toxic under 1/3rd of the time, it just has better to do, and the other listed guys run Toxic even less.

LMFAO what. Toxic's only bad thing rn is that its distribution is kinda shit, look at every prior gen and see how multiple top tiers use it (go back to gen 7/8 and see how many amazing pokemon like heatran, melmetal, landorus etc use it commonly). If you gave toxic to more pokemon, then they will use it a LOT.
Also there are more good/great pokemon that use toxic. Glowking uses its quite often over t-wave, it still is a premier option on defensive gliscor (if we look at the stats, toxic is used even more then spikes). Those are two top tiers that use it on a semi-regular basis. And Toxapex/Clodsire are still somewhat important pokemon on stall. Eternatus in SS used it on a main set and in ND Ubers, it also uses it on a main set. Only time it doesn't use it is in SV ubers, and it probably still works well there.
Let's look at lower tiers even. UU has clodsire and pex ofc. RU has Quagsire and Umbreon use it almost always with some mew using it. NU has bellibolt, breloom, Gligar, Tentacruel use it (overqwil doesn't use it but thats cause it has a sig move that is broken). PU has dudunsparce, amoonguss, some goodra, Skuntank, Glowbro. I could go on but I think you get the point.
The only issue with Toxic, is distribution is kinda ass. And even then, quite a few pokemon that get it still use it.

Rock has zero moves that define singles, the format that I care about. Stealth Rock is quite good and common but hardly defines the format in a HDB world.

Stealth rock absolutely still defines singles, what are we on about? Yes, HDB makes it worse, but every team still uses it because its just that good. And there are a ton of teams that use non HDB mons/strategies, and opt for removal such as tusk, corv and geezing. If "being required on almost every team" is not defining, idk what is at this point.

Rock, more than any other type, depends on signature abilities and moves and gimmicks, a crutch which makes me evaluate it pretty poorly. Garg has a tremendously powerful defensive ability and is still a poster child for Terastallization so it can drop Rock's many weaknesses - imagine if it was just a good defensive type to start with! Iron Boulder and Ogerpon needed special signature attacks to not die to Stone Edge misses, and they still both miss OU. Your best Rock-type not depending on a signature is, like, Tyranitar and Arcanine-Hisui, which still need special rare treats (Sand Stream, or Rock Head + STAB Head Smash) to eke out a UU B rank. As I'm hinting, even with all this under-the-counter help, the better Rock-types are still middling, usually milling around in the UU basement or lower. Compare this to Ribombee for Bug, which needed no signature traits to be Ubers "by usage".

Fair point tbh, but I do not think it is as bad as psychic since mons such as Ttar and Garg (yes, garg commonly tera's to other types, but that initial typing helps it take on mons such as iron moth easily) do use that typing and its attributes, rather then begging to be something else.

 

[S.A.C. Martin]

Gen wunner here. Psychic underpowered? Eh? They still have some of the most powerful mons and moves in competitive play, as well as most Psychic mons having ridiculously broad movesets.

 

[Heatranator]

Gen wunner here. Psychic underpowered? Eh? They still have some of the most powerful mons and moves in competitive play, as well as most Psychic mons having ridiculously broad movesets.

The mons are like, eh? Like, a lot of them are good but not cause they are psychic (besides maybe calyrex shadow rider, and even then it prob would prefer another typing). They usually have to compensate for said typing, glowking would prob love to be anything but a psychic.
The moves aren't really good, future sight, psychic noise and teleport are really only the ones that are 'good', nothing else you really wanna use on a mon despite that. Maybe you add psyshock and stored power cause some mons like darkrai use it, but thats still in the minority.

The typing is just really bad both defensively and offensively. Only resists are fighting (which is a good resist to have), and itself. Meanwhile its weak to bug, dark and ghost, two of those are very important. Offensively its just as bad, only being super effective against 2 types (fighting and poison), while being resisted by itself, steel and a whole immunity in dark types.

Like, when its to the point that Lunala's dex entry in smogdex has psychic stab in OO, and even then says its not usually great, that shows how bad it is.

Yes, in there hayday in Gen 1, psychics were broken cause they had no resists besides themselves and had no weaknesses, but they just kinda fall flat now.

 

[bdt2002]

Part 2

I guess. I'd still call it a net positive, since Web is better in OU and Ubers rn than in (pre-HDB) Gen7, and especially because HDB eases U-turn pivoting + many Bugs are 4x SR weak, but it's at least mixed.


This isn't a fault of the type itself, and not something I care about when evaluating types.


Nope. Ribombee would be Uber by usage (>7%!). Scizor is OU. Lokix and Slither Wing are UU, and Yanmega is RUBL. Many other Bug-types would be high tier if they weren't Dexited. (As above, I don't hold it against the type that its guys got Dexited.) The type is clearly workable in top-level play.


Not correct. Of the 9 fully-evolved Bug-types with over 80 Attack (including Scyther; excluding Forretress), 8 have SD. The sole remaining, Slither Wing, at least has Bulk Up.

Scizor is in OU right now? Huh. Must have been part of whenever the most recent tier shifts happened. I could have sworn Araquanid was the sole OU. I also didn’t realize so many of them got Swords Dance. Overall, I think what I was trying to say was that Dexit took away a lot of the best options of the Pokémon.

 

[Dive Missile]

i think rock is the worst type mostly because it lacks a strong identity. like, bugs and psychics make up for their middling typing by having a lot of standout moves, ice types have incredible offensive prowess that shore up their weak defenses, normal types tend to have enormous movepools, but rock pokemon tend to just feel like half-hearted attempts at making a tank. dreadnaw and coalossal are good recent examples of this, they just kinda dont have much going on in general and their type doesn't help much. i see a lot of complaints about rock moves being inaccurate but IMO it would actually be pretty cool if game freak committed to rock being a high risk high reward type with strong but inaccurate or high investment moves. head smash and meteor beam are good examples of this but i wish there was more

 

[Bakugames]

its funny: despite sr being a worthless move in vgc, i think the rock type is much better there. its not the best but especially on earlier formats rock types can get good results, and they have decent moves to use still like meteor beam, rock slide and wide guard (though this one is learned more by non rocks lol).

i think my main issue with bug type is that its defensive profile is so bad and offensive one is kinda niche that youre more so using them to be able to use a specific nuke/insane status move than because its a type that brings in something of benefit to your team. we do have exceptions but scizor typing wise is also carried by steel patching up a lot of bugs issues. volcarona imo is a better example of a flat out good bug that can use its bug type effectively, though it needed a lot to be able to do so (broken stat booster, insane stabs and good coverage with amazing bst and a gen 9 bonus of being really good at using tera).

and this may just sound like me saying "good pokemon are good because they have good traits", but what i mean is that i think bug types require a lot more to be able to hit the threshold of "good" to compensate for the type making them worse by default. If you changed the bug type to something else, a lot of them would immediately have more synergy and use and would bump in viability

 

[Linkin Karp]

i think rock is the worst type mostly because it lacks a strong identity. like, bugs and psychics make up for their middling typing by having a lot of standout moves, ice types have incredible offensive prowess that shore up their weak defenses, normal types tend to have enormous movepools, but rock pokemon tend to just feel like half-hearted attempts at making a tank. dreadnaw and coalossal are good recent examples of this, they just kinda dont have much going on in general and their type doesn't help much. i see a lot of complaints about rock moves being inaccurate but IMO it would actually be pretty cool if game freak committed to rock being a high risk high reward type with strong but inaccurate or high investment moves. head smash and meteor beam are good examples of this but i wish there was more

I love Rock as a type, genuinely half my top 50 are Rock-types. It does kind of have an identity, with its insanely strong offense vs weak defense, and the high-risk notion you mentioned (even though I agree there could be more of these moves, and perhaps less Rock Slide where, infamously, every third ADV game's outcome is determined by whether it hits). Stats-wise I'm glad they shifted away from 50/70/9000/10/10/10 in recent generations (with only Stonjourner being a sole embarrassment for the type), I don't think the mismatch is nearly as bad as with Ice. The low speed in particular is a clear part of the type's identity - the quintessential Rock-type to me is Rampardos, another very high-risk high-reward mon, and I wish they made more mons with its approximate stat profile (there aren't any).

What's probably the worst thing about Rock is that every Ground-type is better at being Rock-type than any actual Rock-type. They get allllll the relevant moves which is something that doesn't happen between any two other types, and it is basically mandatory coverage so that the only difference between a Rock-type and a Ground-type is a weaker EQ, a stronger Stone Miss, and a much, much worse defensive typing unless the secondary type is Grass. I'm thinking if Electric and Ice were as thematically related, and every Electric-type got Ice Beam or Icicle Crash + Ice Shard, then nobody in their right mind would keep using Ice-types.