Proposal On Monotype Representation

[Rio Vidal]

Monotype's latest attempt to get into SCL was unsuccessful. That being said I do not believe it is because people do not want to see Monotype included in a tour but rather because they believe SCL is currently a perfect tournament. That does not mean we do not deserve to be represented in an official circuit and I will continue to help my tier get the recognition it deserves. As seen from Monotype in SCL, there is quite a bit of support for Monotype so I am proposing a different solutions. Monotype should be included in Smogon's Grand Slam next year.

At the moment the tournament is six metagames (Ubers, UU, RU, NU, PU, and LC) these are all of Smogon's official singles formats. Adding Monotype would help solidify its identity as Smogon's trophy that represents all of its official singles tiers. This would also make the tournament have an odd number of tiers, which means a both players could strike out a tier for Bo5. This would make the playoffs more balanced or could invite a Bo7, allowing all tiers to be equally represented in the playoffs.

As far as Draft and Monotype go, we think these tiers are in two different places as far as future outlook is concerned. Monotype is very well established on Smogon and debates over its inclusion in tours have been ongoing for nearly a decade at this point. Every time these discussions have resulted in the general tournament community being against its inclusion primarily due to significant concerns about overall competitiveness that are shared by the majority of the Policy team. I made a post about my thoughts a few years ago, and my concerns pretty much remained the exact same when I went through games from the most recent team tour. This is not to say "wow other tiers are so perfect and the games are always great", but in the Policy team's view Monotype does not meet the bar for competitiveness and interactive gameplay that we expect from tiers in our trophy tours today. Obviously tiers do sometimes dip below that bar (last SCL's Ubers metagame, the last SS LC metagame in SCL as examples in my view), but over the course of generations we see this as a consistent problem for Monotype which is not the case for other tiers. That is not the fault of Monotype tiering, but we see it as a fundamental issue due to the rules of the tier as described in my other post. Given the history here and the Policy team's own view, we do not see a realistic path forward for Monotype's inclusion in official team tours.

Monotype has been mentioned to be uncompetitive and is constantly used as the reason against its inclusion as a format. It has been discussed to many ends in several different threads and discords. It has been refuted time and time again, however if there are concerns I would like to see evidence and how we can fix such issues.

It has been near a decade for Monotype without representation, we have a decent amount of support and there is no valid reason to exclude one of the largest communities on smogon.

 

[Star]

To me, all the stuff I wrote in the previous post about the Policy team’s view on Monotype’s competitiveness and not meeting the bar for tiers we put in tours doesn’t really have anything to do with SCL. If the argument is on the grounds of competitiveness, it shouldn’t matter what tour we’re talking about.

Now obviously nothing on either side of this argument is ever going to be objective fact. Excuse sounding like an arrogant dickhead, but I do feel pretty qualified personally to “judge” tiers against each other as someone who’s played a wider variety of tiers/gens at a high level than pretty much anybody on this site. As I’ve iterated in previous posts on the subject my experiences playing and watching monotype over the years have led me to believe that it’s just not as interactive gameplay wise on average as the tiers we normally put in our trophy tours due to the inherent massive teambuilder restrictions. Again, this isn’t about “water vs fire lol!” but moreso the fact that building with one type is obviously extremely limiting in your ability to cover matchups. I analyzed some finals games from the tours at the time in my post years ago and I did do that again below. Obviously this is a very small sample size, but I do think it’s still indicative of the problems I see with mono as a whole.

my brief analysis of finals games from the most recent tour

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-818671
flying vs flying. mostly nothing happens all game except fishing freezes on corv until it gets the 5th one. Sub smack down lando then comes out and the opponent just can't do anything and clicks x.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-819277
water vs water but offense vs fat. one side quite literally switches to the mon that eats the hit the entire game and farms.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-818956
water vs ghost. ghost clicks spikes and then the strongest move all game (nice play with double mb but hardly a Necessary one to win) and the whole team explodes when cb dragon move enters the field

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-819055
steel vs dark. compared to the ones above this was a decent game but dark really didn't have to do much at all clicking the strongest dark or fight moves all game or switching to the fatass mons to get hazards / whirl / u-turn.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-820495
fairy vs ghost. no criticism here.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-820371
fight vs dark. absolute wash just clicking the fight move.

Overall, maybe 1.5/6 games here had anything genuinely interesting happen in my opinion. Obviously getting yourself good matchup is a skill in and of itself, but “good tiers” in my opinion are the ones that let players shine in both the teambuilder and the game itself rather than skewing heavily towards one side.

 

[Rio Vidal]

Thank you for the quick response. I'm glad we can both agree that the type matchup argument is irrelevant and am glad Monotype does not have to continue fighting that narrative.

As I’ve iterated in previous posts on the subject my experiences playing and watching monotype over the years have led me to believe that it’s just not as interactive gameplay wise on average as the tiers we normally put in our trophy tours due to the inherent massive teambuilder restrictions. Again, this isn’t about “water vs fire lol!” but moreso the fact that building with one type is obviously extremely limiting in your ability to cover matchups.

Yes, Monotype does not have as many options as usage tiers. However that does not affect your ability to cover matchups as near greatly as you imply. Lets use the examples you provided and break down the games even further. I will also be using the scenarios Star is describing that happens in Monotype across other high level recent games in trophy tiers to show these are common and happen because we play Pokemon and is not Monotype specific. Lets get into this essay!

#1 Mirror of Bulkier Flying:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-818671
Yes, it is true Smack Down Landorus-T is very good into the opposing team, it isnt a super common set and a good tech into that matchup. That being said easily changing the sets like making Gliscor into defensive Swords Dance could have easily changed the matchup. This amongst several other changes could have changed the matchup and outcome of the game. Not really sure what your point is, but nothing in your paragraph above reflects here. A change like that would require a bit of a team recomposition, but not that hard to fix. This isn't an issue because Monotype is limiting in the slightest, it is a successful tech that won the game. Also as you said, there was a bit of luck on MyJava's side that froze the Corviknight, allowing him to position his wincondition more easily. That could easily happen in any metagame, after all this is Pokemon, a game underlined with RNG.

Also a tech running away with a game happens in even the highest level of OU play such as OST finals game 2 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-830502
Similar to how you say Smack Down Landorus came in and won the game, Tera Ghost Dragonite with Encore did the same thing. It stole the game and it was because there was a successful tech and there is nothing that could have been done. The terastallization mechanic, while it comes with a ton of benefits also has its down sides like letting Dragonite run away with games and is not an uncommon occurence.

#2 Rain vs Bulky Water:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-819277
Yes, Greninja did have a great matchup into Rain. That being said it could have just as easily been a much longer and balanced game if Tarre25 decided to bring Empoleon, which could have covered Greninja or Hisuan Samurott which threatens Water as a whole. Yes, Bulkier Water does have an edge over Rain, however that is not anything that can't be fixed by building differently. Choice Specs Pelipper does a significant chunk into the other team, this paired with Greninja and Urshifu it could have put pressure on Pokemon like Empoleon and allowed it to become a dangerous breaker. Again this is more a critique of the build not Monotype, poor matchups happen frequently in every tier.

UUPL Finals Screens vs HO:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-841621
Thundurus-T quite literally lead and won the game. By the second time Metagross had come out to check Thundurus-T half of the opposing team was gone. Thundurus-T was the fastest Pokemon out on the field or would have been at any point in the game and could have swept the other team.

#3 Ghost vs Water:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-818956
Not going to go super deep into this, but Water has a ton of tools to dispatch Ghost that are common place like Hisuan Samurott, which could habve evened the matchup. Neko's team was not the best build, so yes it was an uphill battle and loaded into a bad matchup, but again that isnt Monotype specific.

STour Playoffs Hazard Stack BO vs Balance:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-848169?p2
Darkrai + Gholdengo are a fairly common in OU, yet Life Orb Darkrai was able to break half the team before it could be managed. Then hazards proceeded to go up and Gholdengo is pretty unbeatable endgame even without the burns.

#4 Dark vs Steel:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-819055
This game could have just as easily played out very differently and Steel take the win. Iron Defense + Body Press Skarmory could have been used and evened out the matchup. This would have allowed Skarmory to take on every Pokemon on the other team bar Hoopa-U and Darkrai, which can be dealt with through its teammates such as Choice Scarf Archaludon. This would have made the game entirely based on who would have managed the other sides threats better and a peak game of Pokemon. I notice you keep bringing up hazards as parts of your argument but that is true about every tier. Hazards are now more than ever such a center piece to any metagame for the past few generations, this problem is again not just within Monotype but every tier.

#5 Fighting vs Dark:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-820371
Dark teams actually can be very easily prepared to take on the common fighting type team structures, between Choice Scarf Meowscarada with Play Rough and Triple Axel and Greninja with Extrasensory/Water Move it puts a ton of pressure on Fighting teams and is a very playable matchup. There are of course other ways to beat the type like using Sableye as a fighting immunity, Mandibuzz can pivot in threats to Fighting teams safely with U-turn and many more.

Here is a replay of a unique Dark build take on Fighting: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-846906

Vault of Interesting Monotype Games from recent Tournaments
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-839997 Fighting (W) vs Fairy
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-848131 Ghost (W) vs Dark
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2383560810 Fighting (W) vs Dragon
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-845552 Dragon (W) vs Fairy
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-841747 Ground (W) vs Fighting
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-840368 Dark (W) vs Fairy
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-845108 Fighting (W) vs Flying
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-838187 Flying (W) vs Fighting
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2346823716 Psychic (W) vs Dark
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-813664 Steel (W) vs Dark
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-836381 Ground (W) vs Water
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-836307?p2 Water (W) vs Dark
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-834073 Steel (W) vs Dragon
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-838184 Flying (W) vs Water
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2346818679 Normal (W) vs Dark
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-831851 Poison (W) vs Flying
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2352698640 Flying (W) vs Electric

The point of the replays above is to show that there are a plethora of interesting matchups aren't decided at team preview but also by piloting. A vast majority of threats to different types can be accounted for in the builder, allowing matchups to come down to playing way more often than vice versa. Monotype is a tier where the better player wins more often than not, showing off it is a perfectly competitive tier. Monotype is a tier that does allow the player to both shine through building and playing, any conclusion that falls short of that is missing a large part of the picture. Monotype has a long history on this site of being misunderstood and judged with a very shallow glance, allowing people to come up with shortsided and quite frankly wrong opinions of how the metagame operates. Monotype is competitive and deserves inclusion!

 

[Star]

Thank you for the quick response. I'm glad we can both agree that the type matchup argument is irrelevant and am glad Monotype does not have to continue fighting that narrative.


Yes, Monotype does not have as many options as usage tiers. However that does not affect your ability to cover matchups as near greatly as you imply. Lets use the examples you provided and break down the games even further. I will also be using the scenarios Star is describing that happens in Monotype across other high level recent games in trophy tiers to show these are common and happen because we play Pokemon and is not Monotype specific. Lets get into this essay!

#1 Mirror of Bulkier Flying:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-818671
Yes, it is true Smack Down Landorus-T is very good into the opposing team, it isnt a super common set and a good tech into that matchup. That being said easily changing the sets like making Gliscor into defensive Swords Dance could have easily changed the matchup. This amongst several other changes could have changed the matchup and outcome of the game. Not really sure what your point is, but nothing in your paragraph above reflects here. A change like that would require a bit of a team recomposition, but not that hard to fix. This isn't an issue because Monotype is limiting in the slightest, it is a successful tech that won the game. Also as you said, there was a bit of luck on MyJava's side that froze the Corviknight, allowing him to position his wincondition more easily. That could easily happen in any metagame, after all this is Pokemon, a game underlined with RNG.

Also a tech running away with a game happens in even the highest level of OU play such as OST finals game 2 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-830502
Similar to how you say Smack Down Landorus came in and won the game, Tera Ghost Dragonite with Encore did the same thing. It stole the game and it was because there was a successful tech and there is nothing that could have been done. The terastallization mechanic, while it comes with a ton of benefits also has its down sides like letting Dragonite run away with games and is not an uncommon occurence.

#2 Rain vs Bulky Water:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-819277
Yes, Greninja did have a great matchup into Rain. That being said it could have just as easily been a much longer and balanced game if Tarre25 decided to bring Empoleon, which could have covered Greninja or Hisuan Samurott which threatens Water as a whole. Yes, Bulkier Water does have an edge over Rain, however that is not anything that can't be fixed by building differently. Choice Specs Pelipper does a significant chunk into the other team, this paired with Greninja and Urshifu it could have put pressure on Pokemon like Empoleon and allowed it to become a dangerous breaker. Again this is more a critique of the build not Monotype, poor matchups happen frequently in every tier.

UUPL Finals Screens vs HO:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-841621
Thundurus-T quite literally lead and won the game. By the second time Metagross had come out to check Thundurus-T half of the opposing team was gone. Thundurus-T was the fastest Pokemon out on the field or would have been at any point in the game and could have swept the other team.

#3 Ghost vs Water:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-818956
Not going to go super deep into this, but Water has a ton of tools to dispatch Ghost that are common place like Hisuan Samurott, which could habve evened the matchup. Neko's team was not the best build, so yes it was an uphill battle and loaded into a bad matchup, but again that isnt Monotype specific.

STour Playoffs Hazard Stack BO vs Balance:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-848169?p2
Darkrai + Gholdengo are a fairly common in OU, yet Life Orb Darkrai was able to break half the team before it could be managed. Then hazards proceeded to go up and Gholdengo is pretty unbeatable endgame even without the burns.

#4 Dark vs Steel:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-819055
This game could have just as easily played out very differently and Steel take the win. Iron Defense + Body Press Skarmory could have been used and evened out the matchup. This would have allowed Skarmory to take on every Pokemon on the other team bar Hoopa-U and Darkrai, which can be dealt with through its teammates such as Choice Scarf Archaludon. This would have made the game entirely based on who would have managed the other sides threats better and a peak game of Pokemon. I notice you keep bringing up hazards as parts of your argument but that is true about every tier. Hazards are now more than ever such a center piece to any metagame for the past few generations, this problem is again not just within Monotype but every tier.

#5 Fighting vs Dark:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-820371
Dark teams actually can be very easily prepared to take on the common fighting type team structures, between Choice Scarf Meowscarada with Play Rough and Triple Axel and Greninja with Extrasensory/Water Move it puts a ton of pressure on Fighting teams and is a very playable matchup. There are of course other ways to beat the type like using Sableye as a fighting immunity, Mandibuzz can pivot in threats to Fighting teams safely with U-turn and many more.

Here is a replay of a unique Dark build take on Fighting: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-846906

Vault of Interesting Monotype Games from recent Tournaments
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-839997 Fighting (W) vs Fairy
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-848131 Ghost (W) vs Dark
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2383560810 Fighting (W) vs Dragon
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-845552 Dragon (W) vs Fairy
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-841747 Ground (W) vs Fighting
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-840368 Dark (W) vs Fairy
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-845108 Fighting (W) vs Flying
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-838187 Flying (W) vs Fighting
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2346823716 Psychic (W) vs Dark
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-813664 Steel (W) vs Dark
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-836381 Ground (W) vs Water
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-836307?p2 Water (W) vs Dark
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-834073 Steel (W) vs Dragon
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-838184 Flying (W) vs Water
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2346818679 Normal (W) vs Dark
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9monotype-831851 Poison (W) vs Flying
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2352698640 Flying (W) vs Electric

The point of the replays above is to show that there are a plethora of interesting matchups aren't decided at team preview but also by piloting. A vast majority of threats to different types can be accounted for in the builder, allowing matchups to come down to playing way more often than vice versa. Monotype is a tier where the better player wins more often than not, showing off it is a perfectly competitive tier. Monotype is a tier that does allow the player to both shine through building and playing, any conclusion that falls short of that is missing a large part of the picture. Monotype has a long history on this site of being misunderstood and judged with a very shallow glance, allowing people to come up with shortsided and quite frankly wrong opinions of how the metagame operates. Monotype is competitive and deserves inclusion!

I feel like this entire post is 100% missing the point of what I was saying. You talk a lot about how the games could have been different if people brought different sets or built differently, which of course is true (and true about every game in every tier ever?). The entire point of my argument was that mono’s inherent restrictions force you to “pick your matchups” with your sets more than any other tier which leads to the kind of games that happened in this finals.

You also link a lot of cherry-picked replays of how games in OU or whatever else are decided on matchup which is also really useless imo. Obviously matchup wins exist in every tier, but my examples were literally just opening the replay thread of the most recent team tour and looking at all the finals games, not hunting for some specific shit to illustrate that matchup exists. I’m also not saying that mono can’t have interesting games, obviously it can and I’ve played plenty of them myself. My argument is just that from my experience watching and playing it, it’s just not going to happen on the same rate as tiers without a massive inherent restriction in the teambuilder.

 

[Charmflash]

I've suggested this a few times before but at the risk of beating a dead horse I will do it again, simply because it addresses the matchup concerns, while letting the large monotype community participate in a larger smogon team tournament like scl without having too many monotype moments.

A lot of rng-heavy games can be competitive given the right format. You wouldnt play two hands of Poker and decide the winner based on that. However in the right environment Poker does become a competitive game. The problem is that playing so many games that matchups become averaged out each week is not feasible, so I once again suggest

Conquest Format
I didn't invent this. I've seen it used by various competitive CCG's (online card games) like MTG Arena, Hearthstone, or it's many clones. It hasn't taken off too much in TCG's (real life card games) mainly due to it forcing players to have 3 decks available, which can be quite expensive, they instead use Bo3+sideboard. This format is used to give the player some agency in mitigating the worst matchups and opens up a lot of strategizing during deck/team selection.

How does it work?
In the Conquest format, each player brings 3 decks, each with a different class or type. They then disclose the class/type of the decks and each player bans one of them. To win the match, a player must win one game with both of their remaining decks. Once a deck wins, it’s "locked out" and can’t be used again.

How would it be implemented in monotype?
Each player submits 3 team pastes of different types to the TD. The TD discloses the typing of all the 3 teams to the opponent. Likewise, they disclose your opponent's types to you. You then both tell the TD which type you would like to ban, which they then relay to both players. The first step is done in order to prevent editing your teams after you have knowledge of the opponent's types. You then must play with the 2 teams not banned by your opponent in whichever order you prefer until they both win (which results in a Bo3).

Monotype matchups are quite similar to card game matchups, they can be lopsided, you can have very heavy techs for your "bad" matchups which make you weaker into the overall field but potentially even favored into the previously terrible matchups, so given how well it's worked over there I figured it could be worth a try

 

[LBN]

Realistically, I think grand slam is a perfect place for Monotype. It's mostly a bo3 format for the main stages which clears up a lot of the "matchup meta" stuff. I just think the idea that a tournament like Grand Slam shouldn't allow monotype is just kinda silly. (I also think the quality of games should be a non-factor since that's pretty subjective but I can't word that argument without tierbashing so if you want my opinion on that front just ping me somewhere on discord)

If anything, I think Grand Slam should just be a tournament where all of the sites non-OU official metagames are included. I think the only metagames excluded at the moment is the aforementioned Monotype and I think Doubles OU is official too? This isn't a hard thing to add or change, and it'd make just about everybody happy. As it stands, the recent PR thread about changing the scoring system to the best 5/6 was based on the metric that almost all the people who made the playoffs segment signed up for every single one anyways. This proposal follows that, and it was widely agreed upon. Quoting what you said in this thread, Star "the goal of Grand Slam which is to reward players that can succeed across a breadth of tiers" and the idea of gatekeeping monotype for its builder restrictions / "matchup focused nature" also seems antithetical to the point of Grand Slam.

 

[bumboclaat]

I’m aware Monotype is an official metagame, not a core metagame and therefore isn’t entitled to representation. That being said, Monotype’s exclusion from Grand Slam is something I find baffling. As mentioned above and elsewhere, the purpose of Grand Slam is for players to demonstrate their competence and mastery across a variety of tiers. Monotype not being included is as LBN succinctly put it, ‘antithetical to the point of Grand Slam.’ In a vacuum, Monotype’s inherent issues regarding competitiveness is a reasonable justification to preclude it from official tournaments.

That isn’t a stance I personally agree with, but it is difficult to reconcile this reasoning for excluding Monotype when WCOP not only exists, but is an official tournament. I struggle to see why a potentially uncompetitive slot in an is somehow too much when we have an entire official tournament that itself is inherently uncompetitive. It is a fun tour for competitors and spectators alike, but this is in spite of its uncompetitive nature.

WCOP has undergone a lot of changes over the years to attempt to alleviate this, but it doesn’t really tackle the root issue. At the end of the day, we have an official tournament where geography, not player skill nor the competitiveness of the tiers involved is the biggest barrier. That WCOP has and continues to exist clearly demonstrates that factors beyond pure competitiveness are something we are willing to consider and incorporate into our most important tournaments. The guiding principle of WCOP may be a middle ground between SPL and SCL, but without the national and regional teams it simply isn’t WCOP. I don’t understand why the same can’t apply to Grand Slam which ultimately is meant to showcase mastery of the non-OU tiers. It isn't as though people are campaigning for the inclusion of AG.

 

[avarice]

Grand Slam is great the way it is. It already well encompasses the current generation with the "extremes" of Ubers and LC in combination with all the official lower usage-based tiers. While Monotype does deserve more representation as an official tier that undeniably brings a significant amount of activity to Smogon/Showdown, a change to Grand Slam should be benefitting that tour first. Maybe it would be more fitting when Monotype has had a longer presence in other subforum team tours (think RoA, LTWC) and such to feel less jarring?

At least currently I think it would be more fitting to have a separate tour for Monotype like DOST where there's some potential for doing things like conquest or extend to bo5 for a playoffs stage. This type of playoffs cut would likely be a better sample for judgement @ future team tour inclusion too.

 

[UT]

Generic speaking for myself, not on behalf of the TD team.

a change to Grand Slam should be benefitting that tour first

I do believe there is a good argument that adding Mono is good for Grand Slam.

Currently, Grand Slam is six tours / formats feeding into a best of five playoff. That leads to a convoluted strike process to pick the five metagames for each playoff series; a seventh format allows for the much-easier “both parties strike one” option.

Additionally, the best finish limit of five is also awkward currently. Excluding just a single tour if a player signs up for all of them doesn’t offer much relief, and I think seven formats fits better with a bfl of five.

This also helps give Slam a more complete identity, as it would be all singles-based official lower tiers.

Mono has a large player base; it is consistently ahead of the lower usage tiers in terms of ladder plays and roughly on par with Ubers. It consistenly has high signups in its circuit tours, in many cases running well ahead of the circuit tours of other lower tiers. For example, the most recent Mono Cup and Seasonal had 269 and 189 signups, respectively, compared to 125 for Ubers Seasonal, 121 for UU Masters, 186 for RU Seasonal, and 119 for LC Seasonal. It has been official for a decade at this point and has the resources and playerbase to match all of the other lower tiers.

I make no comment on the competitiveness / enjoyability of Mono, as I am obviously not a tour player, and the arguments for or against Mono on that front are wildly subjective and to taste.

TLDR: seven format Grand Slam is better logistically, and Mono fits well alongside LC and Ubers spiritually. It should be added as the seventh format to Grand Slam.

 

[Tuthur]

Generic speaking for myself, not on behalf of the TD team.

I do believe there is a good argument that adding Mono is good for Grand Slam.

Currently, Grand Slam is six tours / formats feeding into a best of five playoff. That leads to a convoluted strike process to pick the five metagames for each playoff series; a seventh format allows for the much-easier “both parties strike one” option.

Additionally, the best finish limit of five is also awkward currently. Excluding just a single tour if a player signs up for all of them doesn’t offer much relief, and I think seven formats fits better with a bfl of five.

This also helps give Slam a more complete identity, as it would be all singles-based official lower tiers.

Mono has a large player base; it is consistently ahead of the lower usage tiers in terms of ladder plays and roughly on par with Ubers. It consistenly has high signups in its circuit tours, in many cases running well ahead of the circuit tours of other lower tiers. For example, the most recent Mono Cup and Seasonal had 269 and 189 signups, respectively, compared to 125 for Ubers Seasonal, 121 for UU Masters, 186 for RU Seasonal, and 119 for LC Seasonal. It has been official for a decade at this point and has the resources and playerbase to match all of the other lower tiers.

I make no comment on the competitiveness / enjoyability of Mono, as I am obviously not a tour player, and the arguments for or against Mono on that front are wildly subjective and to taste.

TLDR: seven format Grand Slam is better logistically, and Mono fits well alongside LC and Ubers spiritually. It should be added as the seventh format to Grand Slam.

You're completely missing avarice's point. Smogon Grand Slam already has the highest amount of featured metagames of any official individual tournaments. Due to monthly shifts, four of these tiers are always evolving at much faster pace than any other official metagame, making it even harder for players to always have up-to-date teams. The other two tiers, Ubers and LC are also much different in how they are played than usage based tiers. Adding Monotype to Slam is just gonna accentuate all the current issues there are with it; it has nothing to do with Monotype's representation, but making the tournament enjoyable to compete in.

Three years ago there were discussions on ORAS' inclusion to official circuit after getting removed from Smogon Tour and about adding it to Classic. The solution was to create a new official tournament and that worked fine. If we want to include Monotype to an individual tournament, that's the same path that should be followed; don't make Slam worse for inclusion purpose. You don't necessarly have to go the OSDT route and make it a single tier tournament, as you could easily imagine splitting official tiers between both tournaments (a simple solution would a UU-RU-NU-PU tournament for usage base lower tiers, and putting LC, Ubers, and Monotype together; however that's another discussion point than Monotype's representation).

 

[UT]

Smogon Grand Slam already has the highest amount of featured metagames of any official individual tournaments.

The tour would still have a best finish limit of five and be bo5 during playoffs, with each player getting a guaranteed strike. This would not increase the amount of tours anyone has to enter / number of metas to prep in playoffs, but it does meaningfully expand the reach of official tours.

 

[Drifting]

The tour would still have a best finish limit of five and be bo5 during playoffs, with each player getting a guaranteed strike. This would not increase the amount of tours anyone has to enter / number of metas to prep in playoffs, but it does meaningfully expand the reach of official tours.

I don't think the Best Finish Limit is the panacea you think it is. In theory, it means you don't need to play in as many cups to qualify for playoffs but in practice anyone who seriously wants to qualify for Slam Playoffs is gonna be soft-forced into playing all of them because every single one is essentially another "life" in the tournament and a chance to get more points. If you choose not to play the hypothetical Monotype Cup (which is fair because Slam is already more work than any other tour on the website) then you're just disadvantaged by its addition because it introduces more Slam Points into the ecosystem which makes placing in the top 16 more demanding. It's a flaw in general with BFL but that's outside the scope of this thread.

 

[leng loi]

I've suggested this a few times before but at the risk of beating a dead horse I will do it again, simply because it addresses the matchup concerns, while letting the large monotype community participate in a larger smogon team tournament like scl without having too many monotype moments.

A lot of rng-heavy games can be competitive given the right format. You wouldnt play two hands of Poker and decide the winner based on that. However in the right environment Poker does become a competitive game. The problem is that playing so many games that matchups become averaged out each week is not feasible, so I once again suggest

Conquest Format
I didn't invent this. I've seen it used by various competitive CCG's (online card games) like MTG Arena, Hearthstone, or it's many clones. It hasn't taken off too much in TCG's (real life card games) mainly due to it forcing players to have 3 decks available, which can be quite expensive, they instead use Bo3+sideboard. This format is used to give the player some agency in mitigating the worst matchups and opens up a lot of strategizing during deck/team selection.

How does it work?
In the Conquest format, each player brings 3 decks, each with a different class or type. They then disclose the class/type of the decks and each player bans one of them. To win the match, a player must win one game with both of their remaining decks. Once a deck wins, it’s "locked out" and can’t be used again.

How would it be implemented in monotype?
Each player submits 3 team pastes of different types to the TD. The TD discloses the typing of all the 3 teams to the opponent. Likewise, they disclose your opponent's types to you. You then both tell the TD which type you would like to ban, which they then relay to both players. The first step is done in order to prevent editing your teams after you have knowledge of the opponent's types. You then must play with the 2 teams not banned by your opponent in whichever order you prefer until they both win (which results in a Bo3).

Monotype matchups are quite similar to card game matchups, they can be lopsided, you can have very heavy techs for your "bad" matchups which make you weaker into the overall field but potentially even favored into the previously terrible matchups, so given how well it's worked over there I figured it could be worth a try

I'm such a fan of this suggestion that I wanted to bump it. As someone that played CCGs at a pretty high level, placing decently highly in many qualifiers for Hearthstone's Master Tour system many years ago. I always found that Conquest was far more competitive than, for example, playing bo1 on ladder. Though I have literally no experience with monotype, I would like to see something like this attempted even in metagames with fewer teambuilding restrictions.

 

[Wigglytuff]

I've suggested this a few times before but at the risk of beating a dead horse I will do it again, simply because it addresses the matchup concerns, while letting the large monotype community participate in a larger smogon team tournament like scl without having too many monotype moments.

A lot of rng-heavy games can be competitive given the right format. You wouldnt play two hands of Poker and decide the winner based on that. However in the right environment Poker does become a competitive game. The problem is that playing so many games that matchups become averaged out each week is not feasible, so I once again suggest

Conquest Format
I didn't invent this. I've seen it used by various competitive CCG's (online card games) like MTG Arena, Hearthstone, or it's many clones. It hasn't taken off too much in TCG's (real life card games) mainly due to it forcing players to have 3 decks available, which can be quite expensive, they instead use Bo3+sideboard. This format is used to give the player some agency in mitigating the worst matchups and opens up a lot of strategizing during deck/team selection.

How does it work?
In the Conquest format, each player brings 3 decks, each with a different class or type. They then disclose the class/type of the decks and each player bans one of them. To win the match, a player must win one game with both of their remaining decks. Once a deck wins, it’s "locked out" and can’t be used again.

How would it be implemented in monotype?
Each player submits 3 team pastes of different types to the TD. The TD discloses the typing of all the 3 teams to the opponent. Likewise, they disclose your opponent's types to you. You then both tell the TD which type you would like to ban, which they then relay to both players. The first step is done in order to prevent editing your teams after you have knowledge of the opponent's types. You then must play with the 2 teams not banned by your opponent in whichever order you prefer until they both win (which results in a Bo3).

Monotype matchups are quite similar to card game matchups, they can be lopsided, you can have very heavy techs for your "bad" matchups which make you weaker into the overall field but potentially even favored into the previously terrible matchups, so given how well it's worked over there I figured it could be worth a try

How would this work in playoffs?

 

[UT]

Conquest (or whatever the actual name of this format is) is not something that is used in Monotype and should not be seriously considered as an addition to our official tournaments.

Please keep discussion relevant to Grand Slam, Monotype, and formats that are actually supported on Smogon.

 

[Charmflash]

Conquest (or whatever the actual name of this format is) is not something that is used in Monotype and should not be seriously considered as an addition to our official tournaments.

Please keep discussion relevant to Grand Slam, Monotype, and formats that are actually supported on Smogon.

Smogon was founded on the idea of making competitive pokemon as good of an experience as possible. Players were not satisfied with gamefreak's "dont bring legendaries, dont use profanity in your nicknames" ruleset and created a significantly better set of rules, expanding it over time. Unfortunately this willingness to innovate seems to have been lost over the years. We have a clear problem here, one which can only truly be addressed in a way that satisfies all parties by implementing a clever solution.

Monotype is a fun metagame with a big, engaged playerbase. They naturally want to be part of the smogon officials. Likewise, you will have matchup issues if all your pokemon share a typing. This will definitely lead to some bad matches and potential distaste for the metagame by other competitors. Yet you're only allowing people to say that A is more important and we need to ignore B or vise versa instead of looking for a compromise. Thats just lazy and unlikely to reach a satisfying conclusion, as demonstrated by the fact that we had this identical discussion 4 years ago.

I realize that playing bo3 with bans (conquest) is a pretty unconventional solution for smogon, but it is the bread and butter of how competitive card games have been solving the exact issue monotype is facing in these tournaments. I dont see a need for you to label this format as some weird nonsense, or the benefits of confining people to the same itachi's genjutsu Izanami loop discussion.

That being said we would need for a lot of people, ideally from both the monotype community, as well as tournament organization to buy into this idea for it to be a viable path forward. Despite some decent interest in my suggestion, this has not happened yet. Maybe we can get some input from Star and Rio Vidal as to how open they would be to a compromise like this.

How would this work in playoffs?

I dont understand this question. Every single monotype fight, including during playoffs, would be bring 3 teams ban 1 and play bo3. Ive outlined this in more detail in my post above.

 

[Merritt]

Re: conquest (my own thoughts, not speaking on behalf of the team)

The way it's been proposed is a truly ludicrous amount of work on the part of the host for any individual tournament. This involves taking in multiple team pastes, communicating with both players and making sure that things move along in a timely manner (consider how long people take to begin even scheduling) for over 200 people. If there's less than that we have a significant problem with signup numbers. Back and forth between players and involving the hosts with strict deadlines is plausible at the teamtour and playoffs level (16 people to communicate between, max, and less need to review submitted teams after games to check for cheating), but in an individual? No chance. It would require that a form of automation be built for this.

Keep in mind that for teamtours, this also means that players would be expected to have teams determined very early in the week, and substitutes would be bound to teams that the original player decided on. This isn't a disqualifying issue, but it will definitely be a significant departure from how most slots prepare and play.

If the monotype community has an interest in using this format, then it should be used in some of their own tours as a proof of concept. Having a new, untried (with competitive pokemon on any significant scale) format used alongside monotype's debut in a trophy tour would be a poor choice, as it puts monotype in a position of needing to demonstrate the merits of the tier as well as the format. Establish that conquest works with mons before trying to put it into an official.

 

[Arcticblast]

Keep in mind that for teamtours, this also means that players would be expected to have teams determined very early in the week, and substitutes would be bound to teams that the original player decided on. This isn't a disqualifying issue, but it will definitely be a significant departure from how most slots prepare and play.

Wouldn't the players be able to just show up to their scheduled time with their three teams and choose one to ban at that time? Am I missing something here? There's a need for a third party, which isn't ideal, but that doesn't seem like it needs to be done in advance.

 

[Merritt]

Wouldn't the players be able to just show up to their scheduled time with their three teams and choose one to ban at that time? Am I missing something here? There's a need for a third party, which isn't ideal, but that doesn't seem like it needs to be done in advance.

Theoretically, sure. It means having a host (or somehow designating a different trusted party?) available at game time and definitely adds additional time before the games even begin, depending on how quickly the players can be trusted to pick the used teams in a series that is by nature more likely to go to 3 games, but that's the tradeoff. Bonus points for when a team needs to field a sub.

As before, if the monotype community is interested in this format for teamtours, it should be tested in one of their teamtours rather than having it be implemented semi-blind as monotype's first foray into trophy tours. Much better to have issues discovered and worked around there rather than impacting monotype's debut.

This is of course also setting aside that it's a bo3 slot in a team tour which the TD team would strongly prefer not to add, for logistics purposes at the very least.

 

[Charmflash]

I should mention that 2 team 1 ban is also a viable format. People just naturally prefer bo3, but pokemon definitely has more skill expression than card games so it might actually be a perfect middle ground, especially if it better complies with the wishes of the organizers.

 

[Shiba]

Was asked to post as a top 5 monotype player oat (objectively of course) and as the best SV lower tier player in 2025 (also objectively of course). Jokes aside, it's long overdue for monotype to get any sort of representation in official tours - I think it's a highly competitive tier that can get past "monotype moments" with exceptional building and pathing in-game. There were honestly a lot of awful replays brought up on both sides with builder errors or just bad play (not representative of top tier gameplay you'd see in officials), so I'd rather bring up the point of who is actually winning individual tours a lot of the time when we talk about general competitiveness at the top since a. monotype teamtours include a LOT of random tour players that don't usually build/play the tier and b. this is where you would actually get the highest quality of games. If you look back to a few examples of who's winning SV individuals within the circuit, a lot of them are top monotype mainstays:

• 2025 Winter Seasonal by Azick (runner up Adjustments)
• 2025 SV Cup by Jojoat6686 (runner up Gelbel3c)
• 2024 Circuit by Leafium Z (runner up Fraolain)
• 2024 Last Chance by JeoZ (runner-up Crashy)
• 2024 Fall Seasonal by Dieu Amphibien
• 2024 Ladder Tournament by Ethereal Sword (runner-up Azick)
• 2024 SV Cup by Firnen (runner up Crashy and Leafium Z)

The point is that the best builders/players are usually winning these tours, and if it was such a "complete matchup tier", why are you consistently seeing much of the same players in the top 8, top 4, semis, and finals when one can pull said "0-100 matchups"? Surely you’d see some parity at the top of these tours if you just have to win rock-paper-scissors 2/3 times, right? Sure you get the one-off tour players or non-monotype players making a run to finals as well, but this happens in all of the lower tier circuits as well - I'm sure you could find examples but I won't be doing that. The monotype players at the top have consistently proven they can build and path against hard matchups, like any other tier included in any tour.

Anyways, I think having monotype in slam first is the best way as a start to introduce it in any form to the official tour circuit

 

[Nashrock]

https://mono-zjtk.onrender.com/

I made a toy webapp to allow players host a conquest bo3 without the need of a TD/host present. Submit the teams (not links but full pastes) and you should be proceed to the ban states. I was told that monotype really didn't like this idea of conquest so I figured I'd just drop it here since some people in the thread seemed interested.

Theoretically, sure. It means having a host (or somehow designating a different trusted party?) available at game time and definitely adds additional time before the games even begin, depending on how quickly the players can be trusted to pick the used teams in a series that is by nature more likely to go to 3 games, but that's the tradeoff. Bonus points for when a team needs to field a sub.

At least we don't need a host or anything.


PS: This was on my baby server so I'm not sure about the workload it can handle and it's written in a night so not 100% quality controlled.

 

[Dorron]

My Discord Bot (which can be found in the TCG Pocket server) also has a function for people to mutually send messages only when they both have sent it to each other. It was initially designed for OTS tournaments for TCG games but would work fine here too. If any Monotype mod/Leader/tour host/whatever would like to take a look at how it works feel free to dm me on Discord (dorron).

For reference, the other similar tools I found on the Internet where either behind a paywall or just e-mails, so this is the only feasible way without paying any money.