Resource SV PU Viability Rankings

[gulch]

some noms based on personal feelings and recent pupl stuff going on and all that fun stuff


B+ > A-
fell by the wayside a little as meta developments shifted in a way that it didn't quite love but apparently we all forgot triple arrows is still broken!! balance finally making its resurgence has been a boon for decid, but the teams that would have been its usual haunt in the day have now become its top victim, with both pupl and open giving us plenty of showings of sd sucker/sneak sets. covert cloak lets you bypass a lot of annoying tricks like scald burns, and when combined with the fact that you can hardly ever switch into triple arrows, fatter comps end up having a really hard time positioning themselves against it. there are plenty of mons that can eat a hit, even at +2, but many of them can not reliably act as a check if they flinch, get crit, or get defense dropped, and these are all individual chances that can happen simultaneously as well. it's somewhat like ss pu centiskorch in this regard, where a lot of your "checks" are called into question after they're hit with fire lash and can't stonewall you. offensively checking it isn't hard, but not every team can reasonably afford the tools to do so or will have the room to position them well. really mean and steals games and we've probably been ignoring it for too long


C > B-/B
if you've watched a game of sv this pupl, you have probably seen a jolteon. the funny part is that this meteoric rise seemingly just came out of nowhere, with a bunch of teams using it (and winning!!) week 1 and then the wave carrying on from there. it's incredibly fast (naturally outspeeds scarf hoopa lmao) and has plenty of coverage options that pair exceptionally well with thunderbolt into the current meta such as alluring voice, shadow ball, and tera blast water. subcm allows you to take advantage of several bulkier mons and leverage your speed to get in more calm minds while behind the substitute, and it tends to snowball very quickly. tera alongside an immunity ability also gives jolteon serviceable defensive utility, being able to hold back fearsome threats like pawmot and rotom-heat with the correct tera type, and being able to exploit pivoting through volt switch gives the user aggressive routes to secure setup chances. very very good much much better than c rank

 

[tom holland]

Back for my monthly VR noms!

A to A+
I have always appreciated wo-chien on balances, but lately it has been amaziing to use on teams for me! It is so incredibly easy to splash this on a balance, because its insane bulk coupled with its utility and typing allow it to be an answer to a plethora of threats in SV PU right now. On top of this, the utility it possesses allows it to have near-guaranteed progress. There is honestly a multitude of ways you can run wo-chien, whether its resttalk, subtect, knock/leech/protect/ruination/taunt/foulplay (pick your 4), you get what I mean. Specifically, it beats Rhydon, Tatsu, Kingdra, Milo, Mismagius, Espeon, Jolteon, the list continues. With tera, double this list. If you need a pokemon that is going to answer a ton of random threats while also making consistent progress, wo-chien is your dude. The only real downside of using wo-chien on balance is that there's a lot of competition for Dark type in the tier, but honestly dark is one of the easiest types to double-dip and it be okay when building. This guy is the goat, genuinely might even advocate S but I think I have more luck with A+.
B- to B
This pokemon has potential outside of terrain, specifically on balance teams that appreciate status spam, pivoting, surprise progress vs physical tanks, and speed all in one. The way I ran grafraiai with success is with heavy duty boots, poison touch, super fang/uturn/double edge/low kick, though im sure knock is splashable on here too. I ran it on a balance with taunt+ruination wo-chien, and the idea was to win the long game through guaranteed progress and status spam. It really thrived in this setting, softening defensive pokemon like bellibolt and rhydon for Arcanine to sweep in the lategame. This can probably be replicated on similar structures, I really recommend trying it! It was honestly inspired by hearing Asa yap about it once in the discord, and I can confirm its definitely a cool pokemon to slot in balance. I think it should only go to B because of the lack of poison touch's consistency, but outside of that this is a really cool pivot/"breaker".
UR to C
this one is a recent fun discovery for me, and it is Choice Band Infiltrator Spiritomb. Call me crazy, but it is actually a really impressive breaker with nice utility. Ghost types are really nice right now with the prominence of these fighting types, and same with a psychic immunity dark gives. With access to infiltrator, Spiritomb gets a cool niche of bypassing sub on pokemon like subcm uxie or subtoxic lazzle, or even sub SD hecidueye. Band Shadow Sneak does a ton of damage actually especially with tera in a pinch. I run Shadow Sneak/Poltergeist/Payback/Trick, and Payback also is an insane move on it which can surprise a ton of players, especially considering no one seems to know what to do in the presence of a spiritomb and guess the set wrong. Trick is really nice for bypassing sub in a pinch vs some of these setup sweepers, and also for crippling stuff that wall it decently like mudsdale and rhydon. I think people should try this out!

That's all i got this time because everything else i feel strongly about was either said in my last month post or someone else said it and i agree :) goodbyeee

 

[gulch]

UR to C
this one is a recent fun discovery for me, and it is Choice Band Infiltrator Spiritomb. Call me crazy, but it is actually a really impressive breaker with nice utility. Ghost types are really nice right now with the prominence of these fighting types, and same with a psychic immunity dark gives. With access to infiltrator, Spiritomb gets a cool niche of bypassing sub on pokemon like subcm uxie or subtoxic lazzle, or even sub SD hecidueye. Band Shadow Sneak does a ton of damage actually especially with tera in a pinch. I run Shadow Sneak/Poltergeist/Payback/Trick, and Payback also is an insane move on it which can surprise a ton of players, especially considering no one seems to know what to do in the presence of a spiritomb and guess the set wrong. Trick is really nice for bypassing sub in a pinch vs some of these setup sweepers, and also for crippling stuff that wall it decently like mudsdale and rhydon. I think people should try this out!

want to add that tomb isn't limited to band rn, OTR spiritomb is also really good since you have rather impressive bulk with a good defensive typing and ghost/dark as a stab combo is usable enough that you can afford TR and a setup move, tomb definitely deserves to be ranked

 

[Breakfastbiscuit]

Ahoy, Landlovers. Just getting in some more noms before next slate.

/: C- -> U/R

Some of those Pokémon (like Ditto) that will never suck in the tier and are always daunting to face. I haven’t seen a single one in several months and with haze being a necessity right now I just don’t view it as viable. I’ve lumped Alcremie with Snorlax prior when I was pushing for them to be U/R so here we go again.

: A- -> B-

Post Milotic drop I haven’t been snowballed on by a single one and the only one I was losing to was a choice specs set (you brilliant mf).

Still good that’s not up for debate I just think it’s not quite as good as it once was.

: B+ -> B-

Just the Rotom-heat factor really. Miserable matchup for it and seeing it is almost to be expected. Also enough Articuno roams around to make defog a burden.

: B+ -> B-

Yet again not bad by any means but currently I feel it feels like you have to pick what you lose to in a big big way.

Example no Tera blast ice ? Altaria,
No Tera blast fire ? Decidueye, No Tera blast rock ? Rotom.

I’m sure you get the picture.

Rises: certainly nothing drastic here.

: B- -> B+

Not a lot to say about it other than this thing just goes beast mode on HO. This one has been really impressive to me lately.

: C -> C+

Something about this Pokémon. If you can get a swords dance up it can just start eating. A lot of things want to status it by means of dealing with it to be met by Lum berry.

: B+ -> A

: B+ -> A-

 

[DugZa]

Two quick noms before our final update bop

A+ -> A
Arcanine has fallen off massively since Milotic and Glowbro dropped back into the tier on top of Rhydon also getting better and better over time. It isn't on the same level as the rest of the Pokemon in A+ so I believe a drop is warranted. Having rough MUs into most pokemon above A rank doesn't help its case either so this should be reflected in its ranking.

A+ -> S
I think this is the best Pokemon in the tier right now between CM sets and AV, it is almost guaranteed to make good progress against in every matchup. Finding reliable switch-ins to it is not as easy as you'd think given the poison spreading. There's also other less explored sets like TWave and 2 attacks Toxic among others which makes it even more potent considering you never know what set it could be running. It also checks a ton of Pokemon in the tier.

 

[Theycallmephil]

The current VR is obviously a bit old and as such a common point of discussion is around mons being perceived vastly differently from when it was made.
because of this i have decided to discuss a few mons i commonly hear discussed+a few i just wanna talk about.


A -> B+

Reasoning

At first glance I'm sure this monumental drop for one of SV PUs more historic special breakers comes off absurd and radical.
but hear me out, zoroark is famous for its mind games but these are far less effective in recent times, with some players even calling the mon "obvious" but its dampened surprise factor alone isn't the only issue this Pokémon has been having.
zoroarks set diversity has taken a massive hit, with physical sets like sword dance basically falling off the earth. as well as specs over-reliannce on prediction and vulnerability to opposing tera users. even my favorite set, mixed life orb. has taken a hit in its viability due to competition with similar threats and its horrible longevity and frailty making it hard to fit.

A -> A+

Reasoning

I'm sure this is smth people already brought up but i think we heavily overestimated the impact Milotic had on this Pokémon's viability. although i find it a bit more tera reliant now its definitly still a top Mon. rhydon is a staple of balance and offense alike and deserves A+

cutting this post short so it actually goes up in time.

 

[Aurist]

Here is the latest VR update for SV PU, just in time for new shifts! Thanks to the VR council for your votes on short notice.

Rises

Rotom-H A+ -> S
Slowbro-G A+ -> S

Rhydon A -> A+
Salazzle A -> A+
Wo-Chien A -> A+

Decidueye-H B+ -> A

Ambipom B+ -> A-
Frosmoth B+ -> A-
Grimmsnarl B+ -> A-
Hoopa B+ -> A-
Palossand B+ -> A-
Persian-Alola B+ -> A-

Avalugg-H B -> B+
Jolteon C -> B+

Brute Bonnet B- -> B
Rotom-C B- -> B

Virizion C -> B-

Braviary UR -> C+
Emboar C -> C+
Malamar C -> C+

Spiritomb UR -> C

Drops

Typhlosion-H A- -> B+
Uxie A- -> B+

Altaria B+ -> B
Electrode-H B+ -> B

Glastrier B- -> C+
Indeedee-F B- -> C+
Mesprit B- > C+
Naclstack B- -> C+

Froslass C+ -> C

Sableye C -> UR
Sandslash C -> UR

 

[MC Squared]

Altaria, Bellibolt and Scrafty all rose to NU so they'd have to be removed

Here is the latest VR update for SV PU, just in time for new shifts! Thanks to the VR council for your votes on short notice.

Rises

Rotom-H A+ -> S
Slowbro-G A+ -> S

Rhydon A -> A+
Salazzle A -> A+
Wo-Chien A -> A+

Decidueye-H B+ -> A

Ambipom B+ -> A-
Frosmoth B+ -> A-
Grimmsnarl B+ -> A-
Hoopa B+ -> A-
Palossand B+ -> A-
Persian-Alola B+ -> A-

Avalugg-H B -> B+
Jolteon C -> B+

Brute Bonnet B- -> B
Rotom-C B- -> B

Virizion C -> B-

Braviary UR -> C+
Emboar C -> C+
Malamar C -> C+

Spiritomb UR -> C

Drops

Typhlosion-H A- -> B+
Uxie A- -> B+

Altaria B+ -> B
Electrode-H B+ -> B

Glastrier B- -> C+
Indeedee-F B- -> C+
Mesprit B- > C+
Naclstack B- -> C+

Froslass C+ -> C

Sableye C -> UR
Sandslash C -> UR

 

[Aurist]

Altaria, Bellibolt and Scrafty all rose to NU so they'd have to be removed

Indeed - nonetheless we record this info as part of the VR process, these mons will be removed from the original post.

 

[Oofhixd]

Really quick thoughts
NEW -> A+
This mon is gonna be so fun to play around with. Super fat and another great regen mon. Gonna be really helpful for Balance and Stall teams.

NEW -> B+
I think this mon is about as good as it was pre-April. I thought it was slightly underrated then so this is just another help to balance, with it already being the (arguably) best archetype.

Shifts just occurred so both of these could be wrong but these are my assumptions

 

[I'm Tapu Bulu]

C+ ---> higher (let's say B- or B)

Absolutely terrifying wallbreaker especially with the rising Grafaiai and its Parting Shot, as well as Amoonguss seemingly establishing itself as one of the defensive top dogs.

I'll just say this, Adamant Emboar's Flare Blitz hits harder than Jolly Victini's V-create. It comes then with little surprise that especially with Thunder Wave or Wish support, Emboar can destroy defensive cores with a strong Close Combat against Milotic and Knock Off to spam early game.

It also has Sucker Punch against the likes of Delphox, Salazzle and tera'd Pawmot, so it isn't a slouch against offense either.

I know it has competition from Tauros-B but I would say these two mons don't necessarily fit on the same team structures as Emboar can work with more utility-inclined teammates such as Uxie and Grafaiai.

Amoonguss should be A+

 

[Oofhixd]

C+ ---> higher (let's say B- or B)

Absolutely terrifying wallbreaker especially with the rising Grafaiai and its Parting Shot, as well as Amoonguss seemingly establishing itself as one of the defensive top dogs.

I'll just say this, Adamant Emboar's Flare Blitz hits harder than Jolly Victini's V-create. It comes then with little surprise that especially with Thunder Wave or Wish support, Emboar can destroy defensive cores with a strong Close Combat against Milotic and Knock Off to spam early game.

It also has Sucker Punch against the likes of Delphox, Salazzle and tera'd Pawmot, so it isn't a slouch against offense either.

I know it has competition from Tauros-B but I would say these two mons don't necessarily fit on the same team structures as Emboar can work with more utility-inclined teammates such as Uxie and Grafaiai.

Amoonguss should be A+

Late on responding to this but im pretty sure theres an error and emboar is meant to be C+ rn. Other than that, I wouldn’t run sucker on emboar, if youre running scarf, you dont want sucker anyways, and if ur running BU Trailblaze, youre running your 2 stabs as the 3rd and 4th moves. Also the rise of grafaiai is completely due to terrain lmao and nothing to do with its support roles.

 

[I'm Tapu Bulu]

Late on responding to this but im pretty sure theres an error and emboar is meant to be C+ rn. Other than that, I wouldn’t run sucker on emboar, if youre running scarf, you dont want sucker anyways, and if ur running BU Trailblaze, youre running your 2 stabs as the 3rd and 4th moves. Also the rise of grafaiai is completely due to terrain lmao and nothing to do with its support roles.

Oh I was assuming the choice band set, it is goated imo, never ran BU but I don't like using HDB sets - in that case I would probably relegate Emboar to a secondary wallbreaker.

regardless I'm positive it's superior to Mismagius and Vikavolt (who I also like using but that low speed is just really detrimental) and especially Poliwrath lmao

 

[Oofhixd]

Oh I was assuming the choice band set, it is goated imo, never ran BU but I don't like using HDB sets - in that case I would probably relegate Emboar to a secondary wallbreaker.

regardless I'm positive it's superior to Mismagius and Vikavolt (who I also like using but that low speed is just really detrimental) and especially Poliwrath lmao

The speed really holds it back with CB imo, and you dont want to lock into sucker. According to most (not me) “mismagius is actually really great rn and should be B tier”, i personally think mismagius is a fraud and the boar is better, but most dont. Vika im sure everyone can get behind. Poli is really quite good rn imo, it has an incredible milo MU and the meta is super favourable towards it. (Also the BU sets for emboar run Leftovers / LO, not HDB!) Oh btw dont get me wrong im like boars biggest believer i had at like B+ before april

 

[I'm Tapu Bulu]

The speed really holds it back with CB imo, and you dont want to lock into sucker. According to most (not me) “mismagius is actually really great rn and should be B tier”, i personally think mismagius is a fraud and the boar is better, but most dont. Vika im sure everyone can get behind. Poli is really quite good rn imo, it has an incredible milo MU and the meta is super favourable towards it. (Also the BU sets for emboar run Leftovers / LO, not HDB!) Oh btw dont get me wrong im like boars biggest believer i had at like B+ before april

I agree that speed is the main reason it isn't above B- imo. Sucker Punch is probably at its best when you tera dark otherwise i wouldn't use it as the main form of speed control.

Regardless, I maintain CB is the best item it can use. Band Emboar backed by wish support is really difficult to handle for many defensive structures - even Milotic doesn't like switching into Flare Blitz - and it can force the likes of Palossand to tera.

I agree with you on Mismagius, I don't see much reason to run that mon, suffers of electivire-itis with piss weak moves... Poliwrath seems like a good stop to Milo but for instance you now have the better Amoonguss

 

[Oofhixd]

I agree that speed is the main reason it isn't above B- imo. Sucker Punch is probably at its best when you tera dark otherwise i wouldn't use it as the main form of speed control.

Regardless, I maintain CB is the best item it can use. Band Emboar backed by wish support is really difficult to handle for many defensive structures - even Milotic doesn't like switching into Flare Blitz - and it can force the likes of Palossand to tera.

I agree with you on Mismagius, I don't see much reason to run that mon, suffers of electivire-itis with piss weak moves... Poliwrath seems like a good stop to Milo but for instance you now have the better Amoonguss

The issue with CB is that you’re just getting OHKO’d and killed. Emboar maxes out at 251 speed which is ridiculously slow compared to some more standard breakers, and so much of the time its not worth that trade-off for a little more attack. If youre running band, you might as well run it with a fire type that has an actualy speed stat (arcanine, redbull). Imo if CB emboar was the best set i’d have it in UR. Wish support helps the aforementioned mons just aswell as it does emboar, just those 2 mons can function much better on their own than emboar can. The statement “milo doesn’t like switching into it” isn’t really true imo. 252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Milotic: 142-168 (36 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
If we look at this calc, we can see how the interaction would play out, if emboar got max rolls and milo got min rolls. Emboar is already on 88% from rocks which are ALWAYS up. Emboar clicks flare blitz on the switch, milo loses 42% of its hp, emboar takes 15% recoil, that happens again, milo recovers until it can safely live 2 hits and then clicks scald. And no, i am not omitting stealth rock from the milo’s side, but milo usually runs hdb and even if it was running lefties it lives 2 hits. Forcing palo to tera doesn’t really matter bc 80% of the time the palo is already dead by the time you wanna break with emboar, and it can just shore up.

Mismagius doesnt really care about piss weak moves, it always runs np, but the issue with it is that it doesnt really have enough speed nor attack to keep up with other breakers, whilst others thrive in one or the other, making it not a great specs user nor a great scarf user, and the reason to run it is because its a spinblocker which can also break, which we have none of except arguably golurk.

Poliwrath and amoonguss are completely different mons that fit on different playstyles that use a different attacking stat that has a different typing. They literally couldn’t be further apart. Also, poli has wa, and amoonguss doesnt so it blocks flip turn aswell, allowing you to switch into the milo flip turning, and it having to manually switch whilst you get a BU up. Poli is aso not a bad mon by itself, having some great traits.

Ftr i agree with your rankings for emboar and potentially mismagius, but i completely disagree with your reasonings.

 

[Breakfastbiscuit]

What’s up, fornicators
Here to chat some metagame.

A+ -> A/A-

I’m of the opinion this one is getting worse somewhat. With the resurgence of fat stuff, / / / I’ve found this guy struggles to make any real progress. It is still good but I’ve found from an offensive standpoint it is being left behind by other dark types. Namely / / and even in some cases.

It has always had the most awkward speed tier but now the tier has gotten to the point where I’d consider it to be sluggish.

A- -> A+

In the absence of imo this thing has become one of the biggest setup threats and feels like the biggest Tera roulette Pokémon currently. While Ground/Electric are the most common Fire/Water/Grass could still crop up and wreak havoc. Throw into the mix uncertainty in move sets with things like Substitute to me this one gets bumped.

Also I see this Pokémon sweep far more often than and is one of the few Pokémon capable of bullying other top tiers in / / / / &

A- -> A/A+

I know this one just rose but given how good it is it somehow doesn’t quite feel enough. I now see more Scarf hoopa than I do and the other sets serve as glue of the strongest adhesion, for instance the spin blocking or heaven forbid . As far as un-boosted damage goes it is probably one of the better Pokémon to pressure cores such as + / / .

And the hurdles it faces in things like / & it can simply pack coverage or cripple with trick. Another one similar to it beholds some great Tera diversity with the better ones being Fighting/Fairy/Steel. But can get away with either stab typing into the niche stuff like Dark/Fire.

A -> A-/B+

I just don’t see it do good things in contrast to how glass cannon it is. there’s too much resistance from things like / invested / / I don’t really see it breaking through reguarly - if ever. It’s too detrimental getting turns wrong especially the first few where disguise shines. I think the scarf set is still a solid pick as you can still gain momentum with it.

NEW -> A

Continuing discussions from the poll in the PU chatroom. This Pokémon’s utility is pretty solid and is great glue on most teams. Its presence is certainly being felt in the builder, One thing I’ve found is it can fall flat offensively and hanging onto almost never happens. But I liken it to it can really put you in the blender and clutch up games with defensive Tera.
(Totally understand the A+ votes)

Now for some drops

C+ -> U/R

Never bought into its viability for a moment. I wouldn’t expect players to believe me when I’d say I’ve only lost to it once since it was given a ranking. This Pokémon is bad.

C -> U/R

Sorry Tom. I’ve dabbled: It’s bad.

Good luck to those trying to get value out of it. In most cases you are going in without an ability.

C -> U/R

I feel the voting council missed the mark on this one.

 

[gulch]

some mid-pupl thoughts

C > C+
terrain moth is fine but holy shit the specs set is a menace, specs tinted lens bug buzz dunks nearly the entire tier in two hits, and you can increase your damage output even further with tera. tinted lens also means that your stabs are really all you need (although one may opt to run giga drain for rhydon), opening you up to utility options like morning sun and u-turn. it has problems, the rocks weakness sucks and will limit your chances to come in and your speed tier isn't fabulously impressive so revenging isn't too arduous of a task, but good god this shit eats balance alive

A- > B+
less needed these days since amoonguss helps a lot in checking pawmot, generally just worse than rhydon or even mudsdale outside of shore up and even that is dubious at times. kinda feels like one of those mons where you're only running it because you have to to begin with and there are better ways to check fightings now, the rise of hecid again hurts it and it unfortunately doesn't really reap many benefits from scrafty leaving and water compaction is useless as ever.

NEW > A+
wowie the mon that's been uu for several generations is good who woulda thought?? very colorful and unique toolkit that keeps it from being overshadowed by other poisons and grasses and compacts so much defensive utility into one slot. checks pawmot, keeps milotic and rhydon on their toes, and is easy to keep healthy over the course of a game so long as it doesn't have to sponge any particularly large hits. practically a balance staple already.

 

[Wnedy]

UR —> C

Toedscruel is a niche option for offensive hazard removal but I believe it deserves a shout after playing many games with it. Its typing is superb into many common hazard setters such as Mudsdale, Rhydon, and Palossand. It can offensively threaten damage onto other hazard setters such as Coalossal, Qwilfish J, Golurk, and Sandslash Alola. While it may be locked into Spin, Leafstorm and Earthpower typically it’s 4th move slot is free to run whatever utility needed to complement a team. Spikes are the most obvious with the ability mycelium might blocking out Espeons magic bounce giving guaranteed hazard placement. Same could be argued with toxic in order to punish switch ins it’d struggle with otherwise such as Wo-Chien and Articuno-Galar. Knock Off is another good utility option it has to punish switch ins to help support the team (also allows it to run Assault Vest to increase special bulk if you don’t want to run boots). However with that being said it’s poultry physical bulk, exploitable typing, and lack of reliable recovery (Pain Split with its ability is not ideal recovery) does leave it open to being chipped down throughout matches so it’s limited to more aggressive teams in my experience. It also relies on chip from teamates to perform most effectively which is a significant limitation aswell. But overall i believe this mon has what it takes to be rated in vr because its matchups into common hazard setters along with the unique interactions with mycelium might can offer.

Calcs

252 SpA Toedscruel Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mudsdale: 350-414 (86.6 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Toedscruel Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Sandslash-Alola: 212-252 (59.8 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Toedscruel Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 200 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 552-652 (133.6 - 157.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Toedscruel Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Palossand: 390-458 (104.2 - 122.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Toedscruel Leaf Storm vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Golurk: 372-438 (102.7 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Toedscruel Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Coalossal: 328-388 (77.5 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Toedscruel Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Qwilfish: 344-408 (102.9 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Toedscruel Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 254-300 (64.4 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Breakfastbiscuit]

Ambipom A -> A+
The saga continues as does the uphill push to get this thing a relevant ranking that keeps up with how better it keeps getting. The list of Pokémon that do not have to turn tail & run in the face of Ambipom is pretty narrow and the ones that don’t are susceptible to chip and being knocked.

If it gains a better matchup with its flexible last move/Item or Tera type it can be pretty devastating and now I consider it to be one of the best Pokémon in the tier.

Rotom-heat S -> A+
This is one that people have been real high on and I’m just not about it. I have forsaken it long ago due to how hard it loses to calm mind Florges. I don’t think it is quite on the level of the other S tiers by a good margin. To me this one could/should be replaced by any pick of Pawmot/Espeon/Rhydon heck even Amoonguss.

B+ -> B-/C
Pretty far from good at the moment (imo) terrain is still common enough for this guy to be near deadweight. It is sometimes impressive as a secondary scarfer but that’s all the praise I can really give.

B+ -> A-
All of its sets are good, fantastic utility with great natural bulk. The fact it dropped is odd.

B -> C
This one maybe feels the most out of place here currently once again there is only one steel to trap and imo lacks outputting damage some of the better builders can make it work but otherwise it usually looks terrible.


Not nomming it for a drop or anything but my god is it bad right now way more trouble than it’s worth.

 

[sychillz]

A- -> B
Let's Address the Cat in the Room Alolan Persian is easily one of the most overrated and out of place Pokémon on the PU viability

rankings. On a game to game basis, it struggles to make meaningful progress against most common cores, especially ones that aren’t already weak to stronger, higher-ranked threats. As a defensive pivot, Persian often finds itself forced to switch out after taking a hit, especially if the opposing mon has reliable recovery or enough bulk to stick around long game. This leaves it vulnerable to repeated pressure with little payoff other then stricktly pivoting. Knock Off and Parting Shot are practically auto-includes You’re left with two move slots that often feel like filler. Persian rarely sticks around long enough to justify more utility. You might hear arguments that the tier is favorable to Knock Off and Dark-types. While that’s true in general, Persian fails to capitalize. Its extremely low offensive stats mean it struggles to actually remove key threats like guno uxie and slowbro, even when hitting them for double damage. This often forces it to run Foul Play, which is more of a band-aid than a solution thunder wave serves to be more of a nuisance then threatening as most Pokémon who would be crippled naturally switch out of Persian or aren't too crippled by it. Persian is also just generally less bulky then he seems many people seem to think fur coat has multiplied some crazy high defense stats like the defensive coming of mega mawile but persian (one again) low stats come back to bite it (calcs at bottom) its outclassed Unneeded a poor utility mon and clearly SOMEONES favorite Pokémon.
252 Atk Ambipom Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola: 88-105 (32.4 - 38.7%) -- 98.7% chance to 3HKO
-1 252 Atk Ambipom Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arcanine: 114-135 (35.5 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Ambipom Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Uxie: 130-154 (36.7 - 43.5%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Ambipom Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tera Poison Rhydon: 93-111 (26.4 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

 

[MZ]

It's been too long since we had any actual disagreement or discussion on nominations aside from the one time it came up for Emboar of all things. Not only do I miss that as a valuable part of figuring out where these things should end at, but if I'm going to vote against nominations it can't hurt to tell people why.

A- -> B
Let's Address the Cat in the Room Alolan Persian is easily one of the most overrated and out of place Pokémon on the PU viabilityView attachment 762428 rankings. On a game to game basis, it struggles to make meaningful progress against most common cores, especially ones that aren’t already weak to stronger, higher-ranked threats. As a defensive pivot, Persian often finds itself forced to switch out after taking a hit, especially if the opposing mon has reliable recovery or enough bulk to stick around long game. This leaves it vulnerable to repeated pressure with little payoff other then stricktly pivoting. Knock Off and Parting Shot are practically auto-includes You’re left with two move slots that often feel like filler. Persian rarely sticks around long enough to justify more utility. You might hear arguments that the tier is favorable to Knock Off and Dark-types. While that’s true in general, Persian fails to capitalize. Its extremely low offensive stats mean it struggles to actually remove key threats like guno uxie and slowbro, even when hitting them for double damage. This often forces it to run Foul Play, which is more of a band-aid than a solution thunder wave serves to be more of a nuisance then threatening as most Pokémon who would be crippled naturally switch out of Persian or aren't too crippled by it. Persian is also just generally less bulky then he seems many people seem to think fur coat has multiplied some crazy high defense stats like the defensive coming of mega mawile but persian (one again) low stats come back to bite it (calcs at bottom) its outclassed Unneeded a poor utility mon and clearly SOMEONES favorite Pokémon.
252 Atk Ambipom Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Persian-Alola: 88-105 (32.4 - 38.7%) -- 98.7% chance to 3HKO
-1 252 Atk Ambipom Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arcanine: 114-135 (35.5 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Ambipom Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Uxie: 130-154 (36.7 - 43.5%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Ambipom Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tera Poison Rhydon: 93-111 (26.4 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

This post just makes me think you don't understand how Persian is meant to work. Its primary function is as a pivot which enhances the rest of your team, not as a consistent defensive backbone. Crucially, it has those nice defensive calcs while also providing a very fast Foul Play / Parting Shot, while other supporting moves like Thunder Wave, Knock Off, and Switcheroo are all secondary functions that it can threaten if it wants to. Complaining that Persian isn't removing a key threat like Glowbro is like complaining that Pawmot isn't tanking hits for you. It's super good at being fast and annoying, it's incredibly easy to build with, and I still wouldn't be 100% against a drop to B+ but that's mostly because I think pivot Grimmsnarl is getting better again and in some competition for the slot.

B+ -> B-/C
Pretty far from good at the moment (imo) terrain is still common enough for this guy to be near deadweight. It is sometimes impressive as a secondary scarfer but that’s all the praise I can really give.

B -> C
This one maybe feels the most out of place here currently once again there is only one steel to trap and imo lacks outputting damage some of the better builders can make it work but otherwise it usually looks terrible.

On Golurk- I really don't think terrain is good enough to be a reason to drop him, nor is he that bad into it with most sets, although admittedly only running EQ+Poltergeist could leave you kinda screwed. Rocker that's good at trades and forcing specific lines is nice, even if Thwackey is annoying you should have utility into something.
On Magneton- what do you mean lacks output? The main thing it has going for it (imo) is how devastatingly strong it is. I don't care about trapping, I care that Analytic Choice Specs calcs go stupid. That being said, I find myself more interested recently in things that need a little less prediction, even something as simple as Milotic+Mudsdale means you have to pick your move wisely. B- seems fine, putting it in C next to something like Coalossal (which you rightfully called out in the same post) feels like a huge overreaction.

C > C+
terrain moth is fine but holy shit the specs set is a menace, specs tinted lens bug buzz dunks nearly the entire tier in two hits, and you can increase your damage output even further with tera. tinted lens also means that your stabs are really all you need (although one may opt to run giga drain for rhydon), opening you up to utility options like morning sun and u-turn. it has problems, the rocks weakness sucks and will limit your chances to come in and your speed tier isn't fabulously impressive so revenging isn't too arduous of a task, but good god this shit eats balance alive

NEW > A+
wowie the mon that's been uu for several generations is good who woulda thought?? very colorful and unique toolkit that keeps it from being overshadowed by other poisons and grasses and compacts so much defensive utility into one slot. checks pawmot, keeps milotic and rhydon on their toes, and is easy to keep healthy over the course of a game so long as it doesn't have to sponge any particularly large hits. practically a balance staple already.

On Venomoth- agree with the sentiment but this is B- material and maybe even B rank, placing it next to Hisuian Braviary and Magneton feels kind of right in that they all have similar roles with different pros and cons and I feel about equally on all of them.

On Amoongus- am I the only one who thinks this is pretty whatever? It just sorta does too little as a defensive mon where everything else has some level of pivoting or outputting useful damage or utility that outclasses it. You want to use it for role compression into as many big threats as possible, but they all beat it conditionally to the point where it can't cover any of them well enough. I want it in like, A- next to Venusaur, but given how high other people are on it I'd accept A rank.

A- -> A+

In the absence of imo this thing has become one of the biggest setup threats and feels like the biggest Tera roulette Pokémon currently. While Ground/Electric are the most common Fire/Water/Grass could still crop up and wreak havoc. Throw into the mix uncertainty in move sets with things like Substitute to me this one gets bumped.

Also I see this Pokémon sweep far more often than and is one of the few Pokémon capable of bullying other top tiers in / / / / &

A- -> A/A+

I know this one just rose but given how good it is it somehow doesn’t quite feel enough. I now see more Scarf hoopa than I do and the other sets serve as glue of the strongest adhesion, for instance the spin blocking or heaven forbid . As far as un-boosted damage goes it is probably one of the better Pokémon to pressure cores such as + / / .

And the hurdles it faces in things like / & it can simply pack coverage or cripple with trick. Another one similar to it beholds some great Tera diversity with the better ones being Fighting/Fairy/Steel. But can get away with either stab typing into the niche stuff like Dark/Fire.


C+ -> U/R

Never bought into its viability for a moment. I wouldn’t expect players to believe me when I’d say I’ve only lost to it once since it was given a ranking. This Pokémon is bad.

C -> U/R

I feel the voting council missed the mark on this one.

The noms are starting to get old enough that maybe you don't even feel the same way but w/e we'll still vote on them

Frosmoth and Hoopa- deserve a bump but just to A, largely agree though

Poliwrath- no this thing is useful utility and always has been, that weird speed tier and coverage options make it oddly annoying to play against. Still carries plenty of utility in Glowbro/Amoongus meta, even if it's mad niche. I severely doubt it'll ever deserve an unranking

Mesprit- Fwiw the reason I still want to keep it is occasionally the combo of bulky pivoting that nothing really does too much to + healing wish makes it a usable defensive option. I still think we should keep it, but I also sorta think mons can be barely usable and not be worth ranking anyway because they're just that niche and specific (don't know that everyone agrees with this take) so UR Mesprit wouldn't be the worst thing.

NEW -> B+
I think this mon is about as good as it was pre-April. I thought it was slightly underrated then so this is just another help to balance, with it already being the (arguably) best archetype.

Shifts just occurred so both of these could be wrong but these are my assumptions

Again so old that maybe your take has updated but since this is the most recent P2 post, I want to state that B+ would be an insane ranking for it. C+ is where I'd put it personally as one of the people who made the only successful team with it (3-0 in team tours I think). Maybe B- if Duraludon stays lol. Being locked into Eviolite in a meta where hazards are so good sucks, our lack of cleric options means it's going to frequently get far more crippled than it ought to and even burn and regular poison add up on something that can't run Leftovers, and too many of our top threats have Knock Off or Magic Bounce or good Fighting coverage or a Thunder Wave immunity or whatever it is to make this thing just off as a defensive mon. There's a reason I think the only good set is OTR, and even when fish swapped that on his version of the team it was still offensive Charge Beam stuff. Defensive just isn't consistent and might get C at best, C+ is my take on OTR duck. Our other defensive options are just so flexible by comparison, the guy really needs like, Teleport back or something.

 

[Oofhixd]

It's been too long since we had any actual disagreement or discussion on nominations aside from the one time it came up for Emboar of all things. Not only do I miss that as a valuable part of figuring out where these things should end at, but if I'm going to vote against nominations it can't hurt to tell people why.

This post just makes me think you don't understand how Persian is meant to work. Its primary function is as a pivot which enhances the rest of your team, not as a consistent defensive backbone. Crucially, it has those nice defensive calcs while also providing a very fast Foul Play / Parting Shot, while other supporting moves like Thunder Wave, Knock Off, and Switcheroo are all secondary functions that it can threaten if it wants to. Complaining that Persian isn't removing a key threat like Glowbro is like complaining that Pawmot isn't tanking hits for you. It's super good at being fast and annoying, it's incredibly easy to build with, and I still wouldn't be 100% against a drop to B+ but that's mostly because I think pivot Grimmsnarl is getting better again and in some competition for the slot.

On Golurk- I really don't think terrain is good enough to be a reason to drop him, nor is he that bad into it with most sets, although admittedly only running EQ+Poltergeist could leave you kinda screwed. Rocker that's good at trades and forcing specific lines is nice, even if Thwackey is annoying you should have utility into something.
On Magneton- what do you mean lacks output? The main thing it has going for it (imo) is how devastatingly strong it is. I don't care about trapping, I care that Analytic Choice Specs calcs go stupid. That being said, I find myself more interested recently in things that need a little less prediction, even something as simple as Milotic+Mudsdale means you have to pick your move wisely. B- seems fine, putting it in C next to something like Coalossal (which you rightfully called out in the same post) feels like a huge overreaction.

On Venomoth- agree with the sentiment but this is B- material and maybe even B rank, placing it next to Hisuian Braviary and Magneton feels kind of right in that they all have similar roles with different pros and cons and I feel about equally on all of them.

On Amoongus- am I the only one who thinks this is pretty whatever? It just sorta does too little as a defensive mon where everything else has some level of pivoting or outputting useful damage or utility that outclasses it. You want to use it for role compression into as many big threats as possible, but they all beat it conditionally to the point where it can't cover any of them well enough. I want it in like, A- next to Venusaur, but given how high other people are on it I'd accept A rank.


The noms are starting to get old enough that maybe you don't even feel the same way but w/e we'll still vote on them

Frosmoth and Hoopa- deserve a bump but just to A, largely agree though

Poliwrath- no this thing is useful utility and always has been, that weird speed tier and coverage options make it oddly annoying to play against. Still carries plenty of utility in Glowbro/Amoongus meta, even if it's mad niche. I severely doubt it'll ever deserve an unranking

Mesprit- Fwiw the reason I still want to keep it is occasionally the combo of bulky pivoting that nothing really does too much to + healing wish makes it a usable defensive option. I still think we should keep it, but I also sorta think mons can be barely usable and not be worth ranking anyway because they're just that niche and specific (don't know that everyone agrees with this take) so UR Mesprit wouldn't be the worst thing.


Again so old that maybe your take has updated but since this is the most recent P2 post, I want to state that B+ would be an insane ranking for it. C+ is where I'd put it personally as one of the people who made the only successful team with it (3-0 in team tours I think). Maybe B- if Duraludon stays lol. Being locked into Eviolite in a meta where hazards are so good sucks, our lack of cleric options means it's going to frequently get far more crippled than it ought to and even burn and regular poison add up on something that can't run Leftovers, and too many of our top threats have Knock Off or Magic Bounce or good Fighting coverage or a Thunder Wave immunity or whatever it is to make this thing just off as a defensive mon. There's a reason I think the only good set is OTR, and even when fish swapped that on his version of the team it was still offensive Charge Beam stuff. Defensive just isn't consistent and might get C at best, C+ is my take on OTR duck. Our other defensive options are just so flexible by comparison, the guy really needs like, Teleport back or something.

Just gonna clarify that i definitely do not find porygon2 B+ rn lol. This was a predictive take (i probably shouldnt have even posted it) but i currently find it in the B-/C+ range.

Completely seconding a venomoth rise to B this mon is bonkers.

Agreeing that persian should stay A- if not rise to A.

Idt mesprit should drop to UR. It has enough that makes it unique from uxie to warrant a ranking and it even argue keeping it on C+ is fine.

Also again saying that in the op, emboar is C instead of C+ where it was ranked