In addition to what Karxrida said, there's the Exp share/Lucky Egg/Exp Candies. As the games have made levelling easier, dead periods for Magikarp/Abra/Etc have become less meaningful. You still can't use them on the first gym, but the days of switch training something for 15 levels are a thing of the past.
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What pokémon got affected most by changes in the remakes of their games?
- Thread starter MoonlightRose
- Start date
Golduck line is weird
Its RBY niche is strictly an event Amnesia distribution, or Stadium, so its otherwise disappointing in game
In game its movepool is depressing
The TM coverage is good, but too rare too late
FRLG? Well...
Great, the weak moves before evolving lvl 33 are even earlier. Despite comp, Cloud Nine is worthless in game for FRLG, and Damp is to this day still nothing 99% of the time. But the Sp Atk stat boost to 95 is nice, same with tutors that...still kind of are out of the way
So RBY -> FRLG is marginally better. Barely
GSC -> HGSS is a much better difference since Gen 4 actually gives Psyduck/Golduck early Water stab. Tutors are nice too
Sadly the stronger moves are noticeably physical outside Signal Beam (Bug...yay...), so TMs again are needed for special coverage outside Hydro miss
ORAS similarly is based on post Gen 4 movepool, so it's automatically better than RSE. Unfortunately like before, a lot of strong coverage for movepool and tutors are physical. But better than relying on Confusion :[
...they didn't increase its stat? Seriously? Freaking Beautifly did!?
FRLG -> LGPE
Well...it's better. I guess!
...Golduck is a really stagnant mon, huh?
DPP -> BDSP
Not so much better for Golduck, but Psyduck learns Water Pulse really early before evolving, and Hydro Pump lvl 36
So that's better overall, but still sadly boring of a moveset for both
Why Matsuda? It's your fav mon!
Its RBY niche is strictly an event Amnesia distribution, or Stadium, so its otherwise disappointing in game
In game its movepool is depressing
The TM coverage is good, but too rare too late
FRLG? Well...
Great, the weak moves before evolving lvl 33 are even earlier. Despite comp, Cloud Nine is worthless in game for FRLG, and Damp is to this day still nothing 99% of the time. But the Sp Atk stat boost to 95 is nice, same with tutors that...still kind of are out of the way
So RBY -> FRLG is marginally better. Barely
GSC -> HGSS is a much better difference since Gen 4 actually gives Psyduck/Golduck early Water stab. Tutors are nice too
Sadly the stronger moves are noticeably physical outside Signal Beam (Bug...yay...), so TMs again are needed for special coverage outside Hydro miss
ORAS similarly is based on post Gen 4 movepool, so it's automatically better than RSE. Unfortunately like before, a lot of strong coverage for movepool and tutors are physical. But better than relying on Confusion :[
FRLG -> LGPE
Well...it's better. I guess!
...Golduck is a really stagnant mon, huh?
DPP -> BDSP
Not so much better for Golduck, but Psyduck learns Water Pulse really early before evolving, and Hydro Pump lvl 36
So that's better overall, but still sadly boring of a moveset for both
Attachments
I would have to say that Gengar and Gyarados are pretty big winner's in Let's Go Pikachu and Let's Go Eevee. They finally get to be in a Kanto-central game where they can use their higher attacking stats with their STAB moves. They also both have access to Mega Evolutions in the post-game, and for Gyarados said Mega gives it access to STAB Crunch.
I am mostly bringing all of this up mostly due to the severe lack of any mention of Let's Go.
I'll look into BDSP too at some point since that plenty of Pokemon that play a lot better in those games than they did in the original Diamond and Pearl, thanks to Fairy Type, Hidden Abilities, and misc. stat buffs given in Gen VI and VII.
I am mostly bringing all of this up mostly due to the severe lack of any mention of Let's Go.
I'll look into BDSP too at some point since that plenty of Pokemon that play a lot better in those games than they did in the original Diamond and Pearl, thanks to Fairy Type, Hidden Abilities, and misc. stat buffs given in Gen VI and VII.
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I’m surprised Yanma is not mentioned anywhere. GSC Yanma is a horrible Pokémon that is outclassed by Ledian of all things, and only exists to be an obnoxious Pokémon to complete your Dex.
But in HGSS, Yanma can actually evolve into Yanmega prior to the Hall of Fame; while rare, Yanmega is fantastic special attacker with an incredible ability. Definitely worth it in HGSS.
But in HGSS, Yanma can actually evolve into Yanmega prior to the Hall of Fame; while rare, Yanmega is fantastic special attacker with an incredible ability. Definitely worth it in HGSS.
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------> So much changed for the better for Corphish (even thought it might not matter much). With the exp-share, physical special split, early Crunch... there are so much things ORAS gave it since the 3 gens have passed. Also you get Razor Shell at lv32 which helps until you get Waterfall or Crabhammer.
Incredible thread idea.
The obvious suspects in RBY that lost their high crit rate, and one exception.
I'll name names.
Venusaur losing Razor Leaf as an incredible STAB option was a massive blow to its viability. Losing early Body Slam also crippled its coverage. Secret Power is nice, but the power difference is noticeable.
Persian instantly fell off a cliff without Slash. Still good as an HM Mon in-game because of Pickup tho.
Gyarados got massively nerfed by the special split too.
But the one that truly lost it all was Dugtrio.
No 140BP Slash for coverage, lost its crit rate, Dig nerf, LEVITATE...
Bro got straight pummeled by the nerf bat.
The obvious suspects in RBY that lost their high crit rate, and one exception.
I'll name names.
Venusaur losing Razor Leaf as an incredible STAB option was a massive blow to its viability. Losing early Body Slam also crippled its coverage. Secret Power is nice, but the power difference is noticeable.
Persian instantly fell off a cliff without Slash. Still good as an HM Mon in-game because of Pickup tho.
Gyarados got massively nerfed by the special split too.
But the one that truly lost it all was Dugtrio.
No 140BP Slash for coverage, lost its crit rate, Dig nerf, LEVITATE...
Bro got straight pummeled by the nerf bat.
imagine CB Physical Sludge Bomb Duggy in Fairy Gens. RIP
I'm reading through the thread rn and I'm quoting to agree on Typhlosion. Everyone talks about Fire Blast and choice specs, but neither is a terribly appealing tool to use in-game. I have qualms about using Fire Blast competitively too, but the reasoning there is that you're hitting ranges you won't with a more accurate move. And choice specs are useful because you need extra power.
But in-game having a low PP inaccurate move is annoying because you need reliability and quantity. And with choice specs, being reduced to one move can lead to annoyances as well unless you're playing on Switch mode.
Focus Blast has similar problems lol. And due to power creep, a lot of the lower BP moves are less useful. Even if Typhlosion had access to thunder punch it wouldn't mean as much. I'd give my usual rant on the subject but I've done it enough times already.
Anyways to answer the topic:
Butterfree gets an excellent ability, which makes it stand out in Gen 3. Gyarados starts getting overrated allegations in Gen 3 without intimidate, although it was likely better in Gen 1.
Persian loses the crit stuff in Gen 3
Gligar gets a great evolution and can actually learn earthquake
Espeon and Umbreon are more accessible with the Soothe Bell. Getting them at the right level can be a challenge in GSC
A lot of Gen 2 Pokemons got new evolutions in Gen 4
Edit: every pokemon gets worse in HGSS because GSC has a superior art style
None of these are great examples, I'll have to think of more.
Mawile's been mentioned as a success story, thanks to its busted Mega Evolution and its new Fairy typing, but I think you could also frame it as an intergenerational loser, along with Aron and Sableye. All three are victims of the new Granite Cave layout in ORAS, which makes the lower floors inaccessible without a Mach Bike. They're still only available at levels 10-12, but now you can't catch them until your team is likely about Level 20.
Someone intent on using one of these Pokemon can absolutely backtrack and get them caught up pretty quickly, but I suspect a lot of casual players just fill out their team with other mons and don't think to go back to Dewford until much later in the game.
Also, none of them are catchable in another location until you enter the Cave of Origin, by which point most players will already have all the (non-legendary) team members they're interested in catching.
Someone intent on using one of these Pokemon can absolutely backtrack and get them caught up pretty quickly, but I suspect a lot of casual players just fill out their team with other mons and don't think to go back to Dewford until much later in the game.
Also, none of them are catchable in another location until you enter the Cave of Origin, by which point most players will already have all the (non-legendary) team members they're interested in catching.
At least it's better than Mawile's dreadful availability in Emerald. They made it and Sableye catchable in the same title but... Sableye is available early on while Mawile bafflingly gets confined to Victory Road. One of that game's small number of misses.
Joining in on this conversation to talk about the Marill line’s glow-up, which is just progressively better gen after gen.
It starts off as a super rare encounter in GS with awful stats, rendering it horribly outclassed by nearly every over water-type in the game.
In the transition to Gen 3, it gains the Huge Power ability and a MUCH earlier availability - pre-Roxanne in Emerald and otherwise around the third gym in RS. This makes it a Pokémon with Groudon-level attack; CurlOut and Double Edge by Lv28 are nothing to scoff at and it gets STAB water moves to cover the Rock- and Steel-types that would otherwise trouble it, both of which tend to have low SpD.
Gen 4 gives the Marill line what it’s been lacking, physical water stab. The combination of Water/Normal is otherwise unwallable outside of Shedinja, which no trainers use, and Empoleon which is used by 1, perhaps 2 trainers in the game.
Gen 6 gifts the Marill line with Fairy type, which quickly establishes itself as an elite offensive and defensive typing both alone and in combination with the water type. By ORAS, which I believe is its best showing, Aqua Tail and Play Rough get relocated from the high 40s to the low 20s, making it crazy powerful for at the low low cost of getting it to level 18. It’s a great partner for either Treecko or Torchic and carries it’s weight all the way through the E4 and even competitive play.
It has fallen off a bit in more recent gens due to reduced availability and competition (in competitive formats), but in-game it is a great example of a Pokémon that yields dividends on a very low up front investment.
---> 
The Nidoking is kinda weird since I think after the generational swap their roles reverse in competitive and in-game.
In-Game generally Nidoran Male line became worse. You lose badge boosts, 100% accurate Horn Drill, Misty is more powerful, Surge has static, Poison Point while useful slows the rounds down, Thunderbolt and Ice Beam are harder to get, Gastly-line have levitate and Blizzard is no longer 100% accurate.
You do get nerfed Dig but it just hits as hard as Thrash and I can't think of a situation where its better than Thrash or Water Pulse. Compared to Red and Blue, you get early Double Kick like in Yellow. Still I think Nidoking is a fine Pokemon in-game as it reaches its high stats early game.
As for competitive, Nidoking has far more uses in Gen 3 compared to Gen 1 due to mechanical changes, new Moves and addition of Dark Types to hit.
---> 
Machop line really benefitted from the addition of good fighting type moves. I didn't even know it could learn Submission per level up in Gen 1 but even then it just feels worse than even the less accurate Cross Chop. Also early Fighting Type move in Karate Chop which became a fighting type move. It is not much, but at least they are no longer a complete joke.
---> 
Same applies to Mankey line. You get better fighting type moves over the course of the game. Yellow wins with early 50 base power fighting move but Low Kick in Gen 3 might hit Onix harder than Gen 1's counterpart. Lv 35 Cross Chop is nothing to laugh at either.
Also competitively it is also better do to actually learning good physical moves too.
I’ve seen some discussion recently about whether or not starter Pokémon are better in the originals or the remakes of their respective regions, and I’ve got to be honest… I think all of them are better in their remakes. Primarily this comes down to the general expansion of movepools in newer generations but across the board, I don’t think there’s actually any starter I would say is better in its original games.
Totodile from Gold & Silver is an interesting case, because it gets both better and worse. In Gen 2 this is probably best known for Rage being an incredibly powerful move for speedrun strategies, particularly against enemies like Fury Cutter Scyther and Rollout Miltank. Rage is, by definition, nerfed in the remakes relative to its Gen 2 iteration, but I also wouldn’t argue this is a move you were going to keep until the late-game anyway. Using Leer against these Pokémon followed by either version of Rage or the once-again physical Bite should be enough, though you probably won’t get any flinches due to the Speed difference, unfortunately. Losing Ice Punch also hurts here, but if you’re feeling like even more of a degenerate you can look up every single possible Voltorb Flip board online and cheat your way to an Ice Beam TM purchase now instead.
This one’s interesting because it’s actually Monferno I’m looking at in this paragraph, not Chimchar. In the original Diamond & Pearl Chimchar is widely agreed upon to be the best starter in the game, and while the gap between it and Piplup for that honor is closed quite a bit in Platinum thanks to new held items and there being more than two Fire-Types, as well as Empoleon’s Steel typing generally being useful against the better Trainer AI, the remakes made a super underrated change to Chimchar’s evolutions that doesn’t get nearly enough respect. Gone are the days where you’re lugging around Mach Punch as most of the time you spend with Monferno before Level 36. Enter Power-Up Punch, a more-or-less better replacement for a Pokemon who’s already faster than most things it wants to be taking onbesides maybe Mars’s stupid cat and, when compared to Bulk Up + Double Kick Combusken from Hoenn, can sometimes feel like it’s wanting for a just a tad bit more “oomph”. Incidentally, it can also be seen as a Rock Smash replacement. Should you be able to outspeed Lucario, anyway, Monferno actually doesn’t have terrible odds of sweeping Maylene’s team now and I wouldn’t blame you if you kept this move even as Infernape to help save on Close Combat PP.
Charmander gaining Metal Claw at Level 13 in FireRed & LeafGreen specifically for Brock is one of the most well-known additions to any starter’s movepool ever. It also happens to be one of the best “noob traps” I’ve ever seen. Anyone who’s tried pulling off this sweep can tell you Metal Claw is not all it’s cracked up to be, and in fact, in Kanto, a region with Water, Electric, and Fire Gyms, Steel is even worse of an offensive type here than it normally already is with its bad move selection. Even if Rock Tomb wasn’t added to Onix in this version I still wouldn’t recommend using this move. In spite of this, I do still think it’s better than in the originals, though not by very much. Losing 30% burn rate Fire Blast, 100% critical hit Slash, and Fire Spin cheese hurts a lot here, but the extra Special Attack helps a ton during the portion of the game where Charmeleon specifically is desperately wanting an upgrade over Ember, and the family’s TM and HM compatibility is improved overall relative to the originals. Oh, and it gets Blast Burn for the endgame if you’re playing on Switch mode. At least you’re not Bulbasaur that loses STAB 100% critical hit Razor Leaf, Gen 1 Sleep Powder, and Trainer AI cheese. Speaking of which…
The whole point of this post is to illustrate how starter Pokémon are pretty much always better in remakes. If there is one starter I can think of that is worse than it was originally, Bulbasaur would be my pick, but even then it’s still a solid choice. It’s just not as immediately eye-catching as something like a buffed Petal Dance on Meganium or a buffed Leaf Blade on your mixed attacking Sceptile (as well as Torterra getting the move in Hisui). The reason I hesitate to say Bulbasaur was “nerfed” overall in FireRed & LeafGreen is because the nerfs it sustained were all indirect and also less significant than the nerfs sustained by the other Grass-Types in Kanto. It’s still the best one here, and it does get Razor Leaf earlier than before possibly as compensation for the nerfs, but FireRed & LeafGreen’s Trainer AI is… actually kind of a threat, lowkey, and those problematic late game matchups against Sabrina, Blaine, Lorelei to an extent, and Agatha all remain intact. Overall I would say Bulbasaur is about the same as in the originals, not being buffed as much as Charmander and Squirtle were.
Totodile from Gold & Silver is an interesting case, because it gets both better and worse. In Gen 2 this is probably best known for Rage being an incredibly powerful move for speedrun strategies, particularly against enemies like Fury Cutter Scyther and Rollout Miltank. Rage is, by definition, nerfed in the remakes relative to its Gen 2 iteration, but I also wouldn’t argue this is a move you were going to keep until the late-game anyway. Using Leer against these Pokémon followed by either version of Rage or the once-again physical Bite should be enough, though you probably won’t get any flinches due to the Speed difference, unfortunately. Losing Ice Punch also hurts here, but if you’re feeling like even more of a degenerate you can look up every single possible Voltorb Flip board online and cheat your way to an Ice Beam TM purchase now instead.
This one’s interesting because it’s actually Monferno I’m looking at in this paragraph, not Chimchar. In the original Diamond & Pearl Chimchar is widely agreed upon to be the best starter in the game, and while the gap between it and Piplup for that honor is closed quite a bit in Platinum thanks to new held items and there being more than two Fire-Types, as well as Empoleon’s Steel typing generally being useful against the better Trainer AI, the remakes made a super underrated change to Chimchar’s evolutions that doesn’t get nearly enough respect. Gone are the days where you’re lugging around Mach Punch as most of the time you spend with Monferno before Level 36. Enter Power-Up Punch, a more-or-less better replacement for a Pokemon who’s already faster than most things it wants to be taking on
Charmander gaining Metal Claw at Level 13 in FireRed & LeafGreen specifically for Brock is one of the most well-known additions to any starter’s movepool ever. It also happens to be one of the best “noob traps” I’ve ever seen. Anyone who’s tried pulling off this sweep can tell you Metal Claw is not all it’s cracked up to be, and in fact, in Kanto, a region with Water, Electric, and Fire Gyms, Steel is even worse of an offensive type here than it normally already is with its bad move selection. Even if Rock Tomb wasn’t added to Onix in this version I still wouldn’t recommend using this move. In spite of this, I do still think it’s better than in the originals, though not by very much. Losing 30% burn rate Fire Blast, 100% critical hit Slash, and Fire Spin cheese hurts a lot here, but the extra Special Attack helps a ton during the portion of the game where Charmeleon specifically is desperately wanting an upgrade over Ember, and the family’s TM and HM compatibility is improved overall relative to the originals. Oh, and it gets Blast Burn for the endgame if you’re playing on Switch mode. At least you’re not Bulbasaur that loses STAB 100% critical hit Razor Leaf, Gen 1 Sleep Powder, and Trainer AI cheese. Speaking of which…
The whole point of this post is to illustrate how starter Pokémon are pretty much always better in remakes. If there is one starter I can think of that is worse than it was originally, Bulbasaur would be my pick, but even then it’s still a solid choice. It’s just not as immediately eye-catching as something like a buffed Petal Dance on Meganium or a buffed Leaf Blade on your mixed attacking Sceptile (as well as Torterra getting the move in Hisui). The reason I hesitate to say Bulbasaur was “nerfed” overall in FireRed & LeafGreen is because the nerfs it sustained were all indirect and also less significant than the nerfs sustained by the other Grass-Types in Kanto. It’s still the best one here, and it does get Razor Leaf earlier than before possibly as compensation for the nerfs, but FireRed & LeafGreen’s Trainer AI is… actually kind of a threat, lowkey, and those problematic late game matchups against Sabrina, Blaine, Lorelei to an extent, and Agatha all remain intact. Overall I would say Bulbasaur is about the same as in the originals, not being buffed as much as Charmander and Squirtle were.
I think the only Starter someone could make any sort of argument for is Typhlosion.I’ve seen some discussion recently about whether or not starter Pokémon are better in the originals or the remakes of their respective regions, and I’ve got to be honest… I think all of them are better in their remakes. Primarily this comes down to the general expansion of movepools in newer generations but across the board, I don’t think there’s actually any starter I would say is better in its original games.
Totodile from Gold & Silver is an interesting case, because it gets both better and worse. In Gen 2 this is probably best known for Rage being an incredibly powerful move for speedrun strategies, particularly against enemies like Fury Cutter Scyther and Rollout Miltank. Rage is, by definition, nerfed in the remakes relative to its Gen 2 iteration, but I also wouldn’t argue this is a move you were going to keep until the late-game anyway. Using Leer against these Pokémon followed by either version of Rage or the once-again physical Bite should be enough, though you probably won’t get any flinches due to the Speed difference, unfortunately. Losing Ice Punch also hurts here, but if you’re feeling like even more of a degenerate you can look up every single possible Voltorb Flip board online and cheat your way to an Ice Beam TM purchase now instead.
This one’s interesting because it’s actually Monferno I’m looking at in this paragraph, not Chimchar. In the original Diamond & Pearl Chimchar is widely agreed upon to be the best starter in the game, and while the gap between it and Piplup for that honor is closed quite a bit in Platinum thanks to new held items and there being more than two Fire-Types, as well as Empoleon’s Steel typing generally being useful against the better Trainer AI, the remakes made a super underrated change to Chimchar’s evolutions that doesn’t get nearly enough respect. Gone are the days where you’re lugging around Mach Punch as most of the time you spend with Monferno before Level 36. Enter Power-Up Punch, a more-or-less better replacement for a Pokemon who’s already faster than most things it wants to be taking onbesides maybe Mars’s stupid catand, when compared to Bulk Up + Double Kick Combusken from Hoenn, can sometimes feel like it’s wanting for a just a tad bit more “oomph”. Incidentally, it can also be seen as a Rock Smash replacement. Should you be able to outspeed Lucario, anyway, Monferno actually doesn’t have terrible odds of sweeping Maylene’s team now and I wouldn’t blame you if you kept this move even as Infernape to help save on Close Combat PP.
Charmander gaining Metal Claw at Level 13 in FireRed & LeafGreen specifically for Brock is one of the most well-known additions to any starter’s movepool ever. It also happens to be one of the best “noob traps” I’ve ever seen. Anyone who’s tried pulling off this sweep can tell you Metal Claw is not all it’s cracked up to be, and in fact, in Kanto, a region with Water, Electric, and Fire Gyms, Steel is even worse of an offensive type here than it normally already is with its bad move selection. Even if Rock Tomb wasn’t added to Onix in this version I still wouldn’t recommend using this move. In spite of this, I do still think it’s better than in the originals, though not by very much. Losing 30% burn rate Fire Blast, 100% critical hit Slash, and Fire Spin cheese hurts a lot here, but the extra Special Attack helps a ton during the portion of the game where Charmeleon specifically is desperately wanting an upgrade over Ember, and the family’s TM and HM compatibility is improved overall relative to the originals. Oh, and it gets Blast Burn for the endgame if you’re playing on Switch mode. At least you’re not Bulbasaur that loses STAB 100% critical hit Razor Leaf, Gen 1 Sleep Powder, and Trainer AI cheese. Speaking of which…
The whole point of this post is to illustrate how starter Pokémon are pretty much always better in remakes. If there is one starter I can think of that is worse than it was originally, Bulbasaur would be my pick, but even then it’s still a solid choice. It’s just not as immediately eye-catching as something like a buffed Petal Dance on Meganium or a buffed Leaf Blade on your mixed attacking Sceptile (as well as Torterra getting the move in Hisui). The reason I hesitate to say Bulbasaur was “nerfed” overall in FireRed & LeafGreen is because the nerfs it sustained were all indirect and also less significant than the nerfs sustained by the other Grass-Types in Kanto. It’s still the best one here, and it does get Razor Leaf earlier than before possibly as compensation for the nerfs, but FireRed & LeafGreen’s Trainer AI is… actually kind of a threat, lowkey, and those problematic late game matchups against Sabrina, Blaine, Lorelei to an extent, and Agatha all remain intact. Overall I would say Bulbasaur is about the same as in the originals, not being buffed as much as Charmander and Squirtle were.
But even then that’s just Special Thunder Punch, it still gained way more via leveling, like a much earlier Flame Wheel at level 20 and Lava Plume & Flamethrower right around the time it evolved. (To compare, in Gen 2 it got Flame wheel at level 31, while in HGSS it would have gotten Lava Plume at level 35)
Losing Ice Punch doesn't really matter because Crocanaw gets Ice Fang at Level 21, which isn't too long after Goldenrod. The issues with Totodile in HGSS are more external, like Gyarados becoming objectively better and Cyndaquil stocks going up.
Totodile from Gold & Silver is an interesting case, because it gets both better and worse. In Gen 2 this is probably best known for Rage being an incredibly powerful move for speedrun strategies, particularly against enemies like Fury Cutter Scyther and Rollout Miltank. Rage is, by definition, nerfed in the remakes relative to its Gen 2 iteration, but I also wouldn’t argue this is a move you were going to keep until the late-game anyway. Using Leer against these Pokémon followed by either version of Rage or the once-again physical Bite should be enough, though you probably won’t get any flinches due to the Speed difference, unfortunately. Losing Ice Punch also hurts here, but if you’re feeling like even more of a degenerate you can look up every single possible Voltorb Flip board online and cheat your way to an Ice Beam TM purchase now instead.
On the topic of starters, I would also put my viewpoint regarding them (on those whom I didn't talk about to far like Chikorita, Bulbasaur and Charmander).
---> 
Generally moveset wise I don't think Totodile got better nor worse. Special Ice Punch replaced by physical Ice Fang and I think you can purchase Blizzard. Rage and Fury Cutter for Whitney is gone and probably wouldn't work due to Cute Charm Clafable to set up, but you got physical Bite and later get even Crunch for an even easier time against Morty. Stat experience is gone but you get, while late, physical STAB Waterfall.
Feraligator to me was already a pretty good choice for a Starter. It is Water Type who tend to have good coverage by nature. While the first evolution is late, the second evolution is the earliest of all Starter Pokemon and it gets a lot of good moves for Gen 2 standards for a playthrough.
So to evaluate I often look at the main competition for what you could use as a replacement Water Type that would be as good. Sure, Johto has lots of water types that are usable, good even, but not something you would say it fullfills Totodile's roles.
To me that would be Gyarados which is Gators main rival as they are very similar and the shiny one happened to be the same evolution level.
The shiny Gyarados itself is pretty good but in Gen 2 it is I think inferior to Totodile as a Water Type Pokemon you use for offensive purposes. It is still good and can help you as a HM slave.
In Gen 4, Gyarados is flat out better. Gets the same moves except Crunch and has intimidate. Only thing missing is that you didn't get to grind it early. However, you can also use a repel and catch a lv50 Magikarp, Rare Candy it and get your Gyarados that way. The level gap makes up for the lack of exp and I think this is at least enough for me to pick Gen 2 Totodile over Gen 4 one.
---> 
Cyndiquil is a bit of a mixed bag for me and harder to judge. HGSS gives you far more Fire Moves and some earlier even if they are physical now. You can get Fire Blast against Whitney and one shot Miltank. For Typhlosion, you can get Focus Miss as coverage. At lv 57 you have Eruption, the most powerful Fire move with no real downsides when you are at full health.
Gen 2 gives you TMs for STAB Fire Punch and the coverage move Thunderpunch, which generally are plenty for a game like GSC. The bad part is, they are useful when you are fully evolved and Cyndiquil takes the longest for its final evolution and you are stuck with Ember until lv31 where you can replace it with Flamewheel.
In that regard, Cyndiquil did get better. In terms of alternatives, you can get better Fire Types now. In Gen 2 until postgame, you could pick Growhile who cannot evolve (except in Crystal) until Post-game, Vulpix who cannot evolve until post-game, Flareon (exclusive to Crystal) until Post-game, Magmar (except in Crystal where you can get early Magby) after Suudowoodo, Ho-oh who is Gold exclusive, Entei who you are likely not gonna catch and Ponyta who is end-game. Of these options I think Ho-oh and Magmar are the only appealing candidates, because I don't feel grinding for Entei is worth the effort and I haven't tried Arcanine in Gen 2 because I could never get it.
Meanwile what do you get in HGSS pre-postgame:
- Vulpix (you can evolve it)
- Growhile (you can evolve it)
- Flareon
- Ho-oh (in HG)
- Entei
- Magmar
- Slugma?
All of these Pokemon can learn Fire Blast through TM. So in addition to Ho-oh and Magmar (who can now even evolve to Magmotar making it even better), you can probably add Growhile due to its great stats and Vulpix and pick whenever you want to access their high stats. I would probably evolve Growhile immediately because Fire Blast and Espeed are enough for me. Also Entei looks a bit more appealing due to coming with Flamethrower and being able to just slap Fire Blast on it. I flat out Masterballed the Entei in my current playthrough and so far not regretting it.
Looking at Cyndiquil itself, it got better and probably using it over other Fire Types brings you more advantage. Overall, in terms of competition and surroundings I think Gen 2 was better for Cyndiquil.
---->
I don't think I need to argue here. You know immediately what is the answer. Gen 3 Treeko is awful. The remakes came out in Gen 6, the generation of Mega Evolution. This buff in itself is already enough to improve it significantly. Let's go further.
Special-Physical split, awful, but now you get Leaf Blade earlier and it is 20 base power stronger. Infinite TMs, you can teach it 90 Base Power Energy Ball. You can teach it Focus Blast which will probably miss but it is more special coverage. You get Dual Chop which gets boosted by Mega Sceptile's secondary stab which is Dragon. You get Detect at lv39 which means it is an option against Slaking. For End Game, getting the Dragon Claw TM brings more value now even if its physical. Also Dig got buffed to 80 Base Power, you can 1HKO the Tentacools now.
--->
Squirtle I think is still the best starter in Kanto. But generally I think it got worse. TM Ice Beam is harder to obtain, Blizzard doesn't hit as often, no badge boost, Dig got nerfed from 100 to 60 base power, TM for Bubble Beam replaced with Water Pulse costing you 5 base power points.
You do get earlier Bite which is now Dark Type and helpful against Misty's Starmie
I think that is pretty much it.
---> 
Generally moveset wise I don't think Totodile got better nor worse. Special Ice Punch replaced by physical Ice Fang and I think you can purchase Blizzard. Rage and Fury Cutter for Whitney is gone and probably wouldn't work due to Cute Charm Clafable to set up, but you got physical Bite and later get even Crunch for an even easier time against Morty. Stat experience is gone but you get, while late, physical STAB Waterfall.
Feraligator to me was already a pretty good choice for a Starter. It is Water Type who tend to have good coverage by nature. While the first evolution is late, the second evolution is the earliest of all Starter Pokemon and it gets a lot of good moves for Gen 2 standards for a playthrough.
So to evaluate I often look at the main competition for what you could use as a replacement Water Type that would be as good. Sure, Johto has lots of water types that are usable, good even, but not something you would say it fullfills Totodile's roles.
To me that would be Gyarados which is Gators main rival as they are very similar and the shiny one happened to be the same evolution level.
The shiny Gyarados itself is pretty good but in Gen 2 it is I think inferior to Totodile as a Water Type Pokemon you use for offensive purposes. It is still good and can help you as a HM slave.
In Gen 4, Gyarados is flat out better. Gets the same moves except Crunch and has intimidate. Only thing missing is that you didn't get to grind it early. However, you can also use a repel and catch a lv50 Magikarp, Rare Candy it and get your Gyarados that way. The level gap makes up for the lack of exp and I think this is at least enough for me to pick Gen 2 Totodile over Gen 4 one.
---> 
Cyndiquil is a bit of a mixed bag for me and harder to judge. HGSS gives you far more Fire Moves and some earlier even if they are physical now. You can get Fire Blast against Whitney and one shot Miltank. For Typhlosion, you can get Focus Miss as coverage. At lv 57 you have Eruption, the most powerful Fire move with no real downsides when you are at full health.
Gen 2 gives you TMs for STAB Fire Punch and the coverage move Thunderpunch, which generally are plenty for a game like GSC. The bad part is, they are useful when you are fully evolved and Cyndiquil takes the longest for its final evolution and you are stuck with Ember until lv31 where you can replace it with Flamewheel.
In that regard, Cyndiquil did get better. In terms of alternatives, you can get better Fire Types now. In Gen 2 until postgame, you could pick Growhile who cannot evolve (except in Crystal) until Post-game, Vulpix who cannot evolve until post-game, Flareon (exclusive to Crystal) until Post-game, Magmar (except in Crystal where you can get early Magby) after Suudowoodo, Ho-oh who is Gold exclusive, Entei who you are likely not gonna catch and Ponyta who is end-game. Of these options I think Ho-oh and Magmar are the only appealing candidates, because I don't feel grinding for Entei is worth the effort and I haven't tried Arcanine in Gen 2 because I could never get it.
Meanwile what do you get in HGSS pre-postgame:
- Vulpix (you can evolve it)
- Growhile (you can evolve it)
- Flareon
- Ho-oh (in HG)
- Entei
- Magmar
- Slugma?
All of these Pokemon can learn Fire Blast through TM. So in addition to Ho-oh and Magmar (who can now even evolve to Magmotar making it even better), you can probably add Growhile due to its great stats and Vulpix and pick whenever you want to access their high stats. I would probably evolve Growhile immediately because Fire Blast and Espeed are enough for me. Also Entei looks a bit more appealing due to coming with Flamethrower and being able to just slap Fire Blast on it. I flat out Masterballed the Entei in my current playthrough and so far not regretting it.
Looking at Cyndiquil itself, it got better and probably using it over other Fire Types brings you more advantage. Overall, in terms of competition and surroundings I think Gen 2 was better for Cyndiquil.
---->I don't think I need to argue here. You know immediately what is the answer. Gen 3 Treeko is awful. The remakes came out in Gen 6, the generation of Mega Evolution. This buff in itself is already enough to improve it significantly. Let's go further.
Special-Physical split, awful, but now you get Leaf Blade earlier and it is 20 base power stronger. Infinite TMs, you can teach it 90 Base Power Energy Ball. You can teach it Focus Blast which will probably miss but it is more special coverage. You get Dual Chop which gets boosted by Mega Sceptile's secondary stab which is Dragon. You get Detect at lv39 which means it is an option against Slaking. For End Game, getting the Dragon Claw TM brings more value now even if its physical. Also Dig got buffed to 80 Base Power, you can 1HKO the Tentacools now.
--->
Squirtle I think is still the best starter in Kanto. But generally I think it got worse. TM Ice Beam is harder to obtain, Blizzard doesn't hit as often, no badge boost, Dig got nerfed from 100 to 60 base power, TM for Bubble Beam replaced with Water Pulse costing you 5 base power points.
You do get earlier Bite which is now Dark Type and helpful against Misty's Starmie
I think that is pretty much it.
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Something you forgot to mention is that you can grab a free Choice Specs at the Lake of Rage. This makes Cyndaquil a lot better in the lategame and endgame, especially once Lava Plume is learned so you don't have to rely on Fire Blast for everything.
Cyndiquil is a bit of a mixed bag for me and harder to judge. HGSS gives you far more Fire Moves and some earlier even if they are physical now. You can get Fire Blast against Whitney and one shot Miltank. For Typhlosion, you can get Focus Miss as coverage. At lv 57 you have Eruption, the most powerful Fire move with no real downsides when you are at full health.
Gen 2 gives you TMs for STAB Fire Punch and the coverage move Thunderpunch, which generally are plenty for a game like GSC. The bad part is, they are useful when you are fully evolved and Cyndiquil takes the longest for its final evolution and you are stuck with Ember until lv31 where you can replace it with Flamewheel.
In that regard, Cyndiquil did get better. In terms of alternatives, you can get better Fire Types now. In Gen 2 until postgame, you could pick Growhile who cannot evolve (except in Crystal) until Post-game, Vulpix who cannot evolve until post-game, Flareon (exclusive to Crystal) until Post-game, Magmar (except in Crystal where you can get early Magby) after Suudowoodo, Ho-oh who is Gold exclusive, Entei who you are likely not gonna catch and Ponyta who is end-game. Of these options I think Ho-oh and Magmar are the only appealing candidates, because I don't feel grinding for Entei is worth the effort and I haven't tried Arcanine in Gen 2 because I could never get it.
Meanwile what do you get in HGSS pre-postgame:
- Vulpix (you can evolve it)
- Growhile (you can evolve it)
- Flareon
- Ho-oh (in HG)
- Entei
- Magmar
- Slugma?
All of these Pokemon can learn Fire Blast through TM. So in addition to Ho-oh and Magmar (who can now even evolve to Magmotar making it even better), you can probably add Growhile due to its great stats and Vulpix and pick whenever you want to access their high stats. I would probably evolve Growhile immediately because Fire Blast and Espeed are enough for me. Also Entei looks a bit more appealing due to coming with Flamethrower and being able to just slap Fire Blast on it. I flat out Masterballed the Entei in my current playthrough and so far not regretting it.
Looking at Cyndiquil itself, it got better and probably using it over other Fire Types brings you more advantage. Overall, in terms of competition and surroundings I think Gen 2 was better for Cyndiquil.
Correct me if I’m wrong but I’m pretty sure this indirectly buffs Raikou in the speedrun routes also, provided you have an actual special STAB to use this with.
Your only option is to buy the Thunder TM (no way speedrunners are grinding Voltorb Flip for Thunderbolt lmao), but iirc speedrunning the game involves a shitton of RNG manipulation so the accuracy probably isn't a problem.
Wrong on both counts! Top-level speedrunners absolutely do play Voltorb Flip to get Thunderbolt. It takes a little under 3 minutes to get the coins needed and buy the TM (plus Abra for Teleport and Dratini for water HMs) thanks to RNG manipulation. The old route used Thunder, but you generally can't manipulate battle RNG beyond the early-game, so accuracy was always an issue.
--->I don't know how people feel about Blaziken in RSE but I think in the right hands it is a fantastic Pokemon thanks to the addition of its secondary Fighting Typing. Torchic-line did struggle but generally it did learn powerful moves for the time and being able to hit hard from both sides (110 base Special Attack), you can effort even going for strong STAB non-effective moves.
Now imagine you have the physical special split, learn more high base power moves and on top of that get a Mega Evolution that gives you a passive buff to your speed. That is ORAS Blaziken. This may apply to every Pokemon but the way you can just custimize Blaziken this generation is what makes it so great much better. It is basically Infernape from Platinum.
You get Flame Charge at lv20. After fully evolving you can move relearn High Jump Kick, Firepunch and Flareblitz. At lv50 you get Brave Bird. Dig got buffed to 80 base power if you need it but Fire/Fighting covers all your needs.
Btw, by the 4th gym you can get... TM for Swords Dance... Mega Blaziken using SD is basically a better Dragon Dance.
I guess we can add this also as a positive for Treeko in Gen 2 because Grovyle can now get early Sword Dance too. If you can somehow manage to set up on Flanery, you can perhaps sweep her.
---> Mudkip in a sense change like Torchic. More customizable but generally I don't think the changes mean much. Swampert was already a beast in-game and still is now. You get Rockslide as level-up move. You can moverelearn Hammerarm. Waterfall is Physical so you have physical stab now. Getting Ice Beam is sadly a bit more time consuming. You don't have it against the 6th gym but I think Rock Slide is plenty. Also I think Dig is now a viable option to use now that it is stronger than Mud-Shot and being actually physical.
These alone I think make it better, but you also get a Mega Evolution which sadly loses Torrent. So you don't have to farm at low health for the exchange of having no ability which is already good. I mean every stat of Swampert improves. But if you want to feel powerful, you can use Rain Dance which is like a pseudo Dragon Dance to you now.
Item-wise I don't know if you want to look for anything different. For in-game I think having multiple Mega-Slots is viable but maybe there is a random Choice Band earlier somewhere to safe some time in the Pokemon league (There is none but I wanted to mention as an example).