Seems pretty young for a Professor to retire, no?
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- Thread starter DHR-107
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Seems pretty young for a Professor to retire, no?
Okay I have come to terms with it. I now love Mega Victreebel. Long live my new chubby vomit buddy.
I was wrong, this thing is peak monster design.
j
Too many people just look at the still of the art and not tell what it looks like mid flight. the Alola anime had several episodes of Dragonair flying so we get plenty of shots like View attachment 765943 View attachment 765944 and even as far back as first/2nd gen we get
Plus, its an "evolution" on Dragonair's wings as Dragonair's is an evolution on Dratini's.
Sorry but im still not convinced, again i need to ask, was that really the best they can do?
M-Dragonites wings just look awkward on its fat body and they arent on the side of its head like dragonairs or even dratinis, it just doesnt feel natural period.
Again its not the concept its just the execution.
I think people were expecting something like this. I'm totally fine with using design elements of Dragonair but I'm glad they didn't go this far.
Not sure who originally drew this but I first saw it in 2014. Also, I'm sick of people complaining every time a Kanto mon gets a new form. Kanto mons are good, actually. The Kanto love bombing from GF seems to have actually slowed down a bit compared to the last 3 gens.
Not sure who originally drew this but I first saw it in 2014. Also, I'm sick of people complaining every time a Kanto mon gets a new form. Kanto mons are good, actually. The Kanto love bombing from GF seems to have actually slowed down a bit compared to the last 3 gens.
The Dragonite/Dragonaire discussion is going nowhere and I'm bowing out. My last word is that I think the design looks silly and whatever their argument for it is, it's not a design that gets me excited for the new game.
I don't think most people disagree that Gen 1 designs were good, but other gens have good designs too. And even if you think the Gen 1 designs were the best(which I think is itself an argument), is the 10th-best Gen 1 mon better than the best Gen 5 mon? Is the rank 30 mon from Kanto better than the rank 10 mon from Hoenn? They've given almost every single Kanto line a new superform or regional variant at this point, whereas other generations get a bare handful of new things. Maybe it's slowed down(I'd argue it hasn't), but at a certain point they are scraping the bottom of the barrel with Kanto stuff, while low-hanging fruit with no connection to Kanto gets ignored. It's an annoying monofocus and I wish it would stop.
I mean, you probably don't WANT to give redesigns and new forms to mons that are already good, but that's where TPC and I disagree. But even if we accept that premise:
I don't think most people disagree that Gen 1 designs were good, but other gens have good designs too. And even if you think the Gen 1 designs were the best(which I think is itself an argument), is the 10th-best Gen 1 mon better than the best Gen 5 mon? Is the rank 30 mon from Kanto better than the rank 10 mon from Hoenn? They've given almost every single Kanto line a new superform or regional variant at this point, whereas other generations get a bare handful of new things. Maybe it's slowed down(I'd argue it hasn't), but at a certain point they are scraping the bottom of the barrel with Kanto stuff, while low-hanging fruit with no connection to Kanto gets ignored. It's an annoying monofocus and I wish it would stop.
This is something I agree with, given that other generations has more moments to shine with their own Pokémon having new things compared to the 7th and 8th (prior to Legends: Arceus), most notably those of Johto and Unova. SV’s DLC even give new evos for Applin and Duraludon while introducing a lookalike of the Sinistea line, all of which are 8th Generation Pokémon.
Hugin isn’t wrong about the “scraping the bottom of barrel” thing though, partially due to Sword and Shield insisted on “50/49/1 Galar, Kanto and the rest” instead of “50/50 Galar and prior regions” regarding Gigantamax forms.
You're free to feel about Mega Dragonite what you will. I don't really care either way.
I mean, what designs are good and which aren't is highly subjective. I think GF's decisions to revisit old designs is a case-by-case basis and I'm not sure that (in most cases at least) they necessarily decide which regions to pull from deliberately. It seems to be moreso based on what Pokémon they come up with a new form/evo for. There have been more new designs based around Johto and Unova mons in gen 9 so far than there have been Kanto. As the second largest selection of Pokémon in the series, it makes sense that a lot of them would end up being from gen 1. There's more to choose from. It also feels like there's been a better overall balance since PLA-at least in terms of Kanto not being disproportionately represented.
Something else I find worth discussing - I've seen a lot of people speculate on both of these Pokémon's abilities (for when they eventually get added to a game that has them), but I want to discuss the possibility of them getting new Signature Moves as well. In Legends Arceus pretty much every new Pokémon had a new move (The only ones that weren't signature moves in that game were Arcanine's Raging Fury, Basuclegion's Wave Crash and Ursaluna's Headlong Rush, as the Sinnoh starters all got these moves in PLA as well)
I think Signature Moves could be an interesting way to differentiate Megas in a game without abilities while also giving the base forms something new that they can keep even in games that don't have Megas. Dunno if they'd go out of their way to give every Mega a new move - we're currently at 50 with there definitely being more in store - but I think its likely to see a decent portion of them getting new moves
(Also a small tangent but I think its likely for the Kanto Birds to get signature moves here as well; PLA had signatures for every minor legendary and the birds fill that role in Kalos)
I think Signature Moves could be an interesting way to differentiate Megas in a game without abilities while also giving the base forms something new that they can keep even in games that don't have Megas. Dunno if they'd go out of their way to give every Mega a new move - we're currently at 50 with there definitely being more in store - but I think its likely to see a decent portion of them getting new moves
(Also a small tangent but I think its likely for the Kanto Birds to get signature moves here as well; PLA had signatures for every minor legendary and the birds fill that role in Kalos)
I've already said it, but I'm pretty sure Mega-Victreebel will get a signature attack that is SE against Steel. A few hours after that, the official Pokémon channel on Youtube made emphasis, again, in the fact that M-Victreebel's poison is so strong it even melts Steel, so not only does this appear on its official description in the Pokémon page but they relapsed into this fact.
I really would not put too much stock into hyperbolic flavor text.
I mean, you're original statement still stands, just instead of tying your vine around your neck in defiance you're doing it to contain all that poison in your gut.
I think people were expecting something like this. I'm totally fine with using design elements of Dragonair but I'm glad they didn't go this far.
Now I think this is going too far. It doesn't feel like Dragonite is Mega Evolving, this looks like it's Digivolving.
Honestly most prior Mega Dragonites I saw which took elements from Dragonair did these:
1. Most if not all had the exact or similar looking "ear wings" (size varied, though I don't think any were intended to be how it flied).
2. Either had Dragonair's horn (though usually thicker and/or longer) or an orb on its forehead.
3. Orbs on its tail and neck, usually a whole batch of them.
4. Stayed generally the same shape, if any part of it was changed it was either slimming the tail and/or growing the wings and antennas.
5. Stayed mostly orange, if there was touches of blue it was either a slight fade on the tip of its limbs, entirely its belly, or a completely new design element (like one had its hands & legs covered in clouds which were blue).
6. Had more design elements added. Not necessarily overdesigned (though some certainly were), but more compared to the actual & simpler Mega Dragonite.
Looking at the actual Mega Dragonite at another angle, maybe the ear wings weren't meant to directly be Dragonair's ear wings. Instead, they were meant to be an "evolution" of the ear wings. Mega Dragonite may be regaining some of these old traits, but it's also still Mega Evolving so these traits may have also evolved. So instead of tiny cloud-like wisps the ear wings are now full-fledge fluffy feathers. It only has one pearl because they all combined into a giant one, and its on it tail cause that was where Dragonair had two compared to the one on its neck (plus its out of the way). So in that regard, the only oddity on Mega Dragonite is its back wings getting not only smaller but simpler. But maybe with those it's not an evolution in improvement but rather exaptation (FUN FACT: M-Dragonite regaining Dragonair's ear wings and orb is an example of atavism). With its ear wings now acting as its main wings, the back wings have lost their main function. However, instead of losing them, they could now be used as a spoiler for a steadier flight. So it receded the scales around it as they're just a liability and fortified the teal membrane to make it stiff enough to stand on their own but still flexible to manipulate the airflow.
Well, I think the issue is you don't want to do this for ONLY the Pokemon that were already good. And that's been a problem with Mega Evolution in more than one way. Not only have many "good" Pokemon been given a Mega, some seemingly for no other reason that its popular, thus taking the opportunity away from a not-so-popular Pokemon getting one, BUT there's also that "One Mega Per Battle" limitation. Because of that limitation, even if only a small group of "good" Pokemon got Mega and all the others were non-popular mons, you'd mostly only ever see the "good" ones in competition cause they were made further good. It's not the fault of the Mega concept itself, but the mechanics GF thought up; though the good thing about mechanics is that they can be changed... GF just has to be open to it.
Good point. Personally, especially for older Mega Pokemon, I would lean toward them creating a new Move which fits the Mega but under the right circumstances can be given to other Pokemon (such as you mentioned with Raging Fury, Wave Crash, and Headlong Rush). But I wouldn't be against a Signature if it fits the Pokemon just right.
Though, while I know so far it seems like all the Pokemon in XY are in the game, Legendaries I'd argue could be an exception. The Legendary Birds just felt thrown in for the sake of having more Legendaries and maybe a Gen 1 homage since they also had Mewtwo (who got two Mega; will be interesting to see where they fit it into Lumiose City). And that's another thing, we're seemingly restricted to just Lumiose City, so unless told otherwise we have to assume all encounters happen within it. And already things are feeling packed with them needing to find room for Xerneas, Yveltal, Diancie, Hoopa, Volcanion, Mewtwo, Latios, & Latias; and then there's also Rayquaza, Groudon, and Kyogre. Also the birds sorta got the spotlight in Galar getting Regional Forms (and you can get them normally in the Dynamax Adventures), unless they get Megas I kind of feel it would be a sorta downgrade to just have them even if they get Signature Moves.
Honestly, going on a tangent here, since they didn't do it the first time around, I would not be against them adding in a whole new trio/quartet of Legendary for the Kalos region. Maybe the firing of the Ultimate Weapon and now whatever Quasartico is doing has caused a powerful group of Pokemon to awaken or come into being (or maybe Quasartico purposely created them).
Mega Dragonite's Head wings are meant to be Dratini/Dragonair's ear feathers growing on Dragonite's antenna that's why they're attached to the front of the head and why they bend so much.
Mega Dragonite's regular wings aren't actually supposed to be smaller, the removal of the orange bit plus the longer tail and massive antenna wings just causes an optical illusion that makes them appear smaller.
Yes, I know. But if you look at Dragonair's ear wings, even when fully extended, they're relatively simple in shape; A swirl that feathers off. Mega Dragonite takes that and does even more with it, much more bigger and feathery & fluffy, having a layering effect which looks like both wings and clouds.
No, they are smaller, just compare them to Dragonite's head:
Oh without a doubt we're going to get new moves and signatures. I also expect movepool buffs for older megas since gen 8 took a bunch of tools away from them. PUP on Kanga, HP Ice and Signal Beam on Mane, Pursuit for absol and ttar... these gaps have to be filled with something. Although, typically if a mon has a new cool signature move, they tend to advertise it alongside the mon. so until further notice we can assume the moves weve seen should be moves we're familiar with.
I don't think the others don't really need those gaps filled at all. Otherwise they probably would have done so in the transition from megas to no megas, especially since they probably don't see the moves in question as core to the mega's identity.
Even Power Up Punch has the extra caveat that as far as Gen 7 official competitions were concerned, Kangaskhan already lost Powerup Punch. It wasn't a TM anymore and it didn't get included in the moveset otherwise, which meant that when you had to deal with the Alolan mark Kangaskhans you didn't have that move on hand. And they didn't really replace it with anything to make up for it.
Knock Off is still a Move Tutor staple and everything & their mom learns Toxic, right?
The real unemployment final boss
I can think of three possible motivations for the Mega Dragonite design.I mean, you're original statement still stands, just instead of tying your vine around your neck in defiance you're doing it to contain all that poison in your gut.
Now I think this is going too far. It doesn't feel like Dragonite is Mega Evolving, this looks like it's Digivolving.
Honestly most prior Mega Dragonites I saw which took elements from Dragonair did these:
1. Most if not all had the exact or similar looking "ear wings" (size varied, though I don't think any were intended to be how it flied).
2. Either had Dragonair's horn (though usually thicker and/or longer) or an orb on its forehead.
3. Orbs on its tail and neck, usually a whole batch of them.
4. Stayed generally the same shape, if any part of it was changed it was either slimming the tail and/or growing the wings and antennas.
5. Stayed mostly orange, if there was touches of blue it was either a slight fade on the tip of its limbs, entirely its belly, or a completely new design element (like one had its hands & legs covered in clouds which were blue).
6. Had more design elements added. Not necessarily overdesigned (though some certainly were), but more compared to the actual & simpler Mega Dragonite.
Looking at the actual Mega Dragonite at another angle, maybe the ear wings weren't meant to directly be Dragonair's ear wings. Instead, they were meant to be an "evolution" of the ear wings. Mega Dragonite may be regaining some of these old traits, but it's also still Mega Evolving so these traits may have also evolved. So instead of tiny cloud-like wisps the ear wings are now full-fledge fluffy feathers. It only has one pearl because they all combined into a giant one, and its on it tail cause that was where Dragonair had two compared to the one on its neck (plus its out of the way). So in that regard, the only oddity on Mega Dragonite is its back wings getting not only smaller but simpler. But maybe with those it's not an evolution in improvement but rather exaptation (FUN FACT: M-Dragonite regaining Dragonair's ear wings and orb is an example of atavism). With its ear wings now acting as its main wings, the back wings have lost their main function. However, instead of losing them, they could now be used as a spoiler for a steadier flight. So it receded the scales around it as they're just a liability and fortified the teal membrane to make it stiff enough to stand on their own but still flexible to manipulate the airflow.
Well, I think the issue is you don't want to do this for ONLY the Pokemon that were already good. And that's been a problem with Mega Evolution in more than one way. Not only have many "good" Pokemon been given a Mega, some seemingly for no other reason that its popular, thus taking the opportunity away from a not-so-popular Pokemon getting one, BUT there's also that "One Mega Per Battle" limitation. Because of that limitation, even if only a small group of "good" Pokemon got Mega and all the others were non-popular mons, you'd mostly only ever see the "good" ones in competition cause they were made further good. It's not the fault of the Mega concept itself, but the mechanics GF thought up; though the good thing about mechanics is that they can be changed... GF just has to be open to it.
Good point. Personally, especially for older Mega Pokemon, I would lean toward them creating a new Move which fits the Mega but under the right circumstances can be given to other Pokemon (such as you mentioned with Raging Fury, Wave Crash, and Headlong Rush). But I wouldn't be against a Signature if it fits the Pokemon just right.
Though, while I know so far it seems like all the Pokemon in XY are in the game, Legendaries I'd argue could be an exception. The Legendary Birds just felt thrown in for the sake of having more Legendaries and maybe a Gen 1 homage since they also had Mewtwo (who got two Mega; will be interesting to see where they fit it into Lumiose City). And that's another thing, we're seemingly restricted to just Lumiose City, so unless told otherwise we have to assume all encounters happen within it. And already things are feeling packed with them needing to find room for Xerneas, Yveltal, Diancie, Hoopa, Volcanion, Mewtwo, Latios, & Latias; and then there's also Rayquaza, Groudon, and Kyogre. Also the birds sorta got the spotlight in Galar getting Regional Forms (and you can get them normally in the Dynamax Adventures), unless they get Megas I kind of feel it would be a sorta downgrade to just have them even if they get Signature Moves.
Honestly, going on a tangent here, since they didn't do it the first time around, I would not be against them adding in a whole new trio/quartet of Legendary for the Kalos region. Maybe the firing of the Ultimate Weapon and now whatever Quasartico is doing has caused a powerful group of Pokemon to awaken or come into being (or maybe Quasartico purposely created them).
1. They wanted to create a Mega and thought some of Dragonair's design elements would improve the design.
2. They wanted to appease the fans who have always disliked Dragonite, but liked Dragonair.
3. They wanted to shut up the Dragonair fans.
If they were going for option one, I think they succeeded. It's Dragonite, but more and sillier.
If they were going for option two, I'd say that's a commendable goal, but they were setting themselves up for failure. There may be a best-of-both-worlds design out there that both Dragonair and Dragonite fans would like, but the best they could likely achieve is a "true compromise", where both sides are a bit disappointed. It also could have easily been a worst-of-both-worlds design that no one liked. The other outcomes would be Dragonite with Dragonair design elements (which we got), which was only ever going to appeal to Dragonite fans, or the inverse*. If this was their goal, I think they failed. I agree that most of the compromise designs look bad or overdesigned in some way, but I did find this one that I think is decent:
I think options one and two are the most likely, but I wouldn't be shocked if option three was their goal. If it was, f them, and I think they failed, since it just reignited Dragonair fans' frustration. I think a small, irritating part of the community has taken this attitude though. I've seen comments saying: "aren't you happy, this is what you've been asking for". And no. It's not. We don't like Dragonite**, this is still Dragonite. That's not hard to grasp.
*The inverse (Dragonair with some Dragonite design elements) would have been a good outcome imo. Dragonite fans would still have a mon that is good in both playthroughs and competitive (regular Dragonite) and Dragonair fans, who have neither of those things, would gain both.
**I don't mind Dragonite's design, I just don't like it as an evolution to Dragonair.
Now, as far as solutions go, one has been all but taken off the table (Mega Dragonite that looks like a Dragonair Evo), but a split evolution is still a viable way to appease everyone. Maybe a regional evolution or something. And maybe it could be Dragon/Fairy. Also, six winged seraphim Mega Dragonite, otherwise identical to the Mega we got, would have been sick.
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"Just parasocial shit" is also how i'd describe a large majority of main franchise communities convinced that everything is about them, so checks out.
Probably, but people have speculated for a long time that Game Freak does stuff to intentionally irritate some of the player base. Whether it's justified or not, it's not a new idea and I've seen it brought up for this specific case. The closest thing to it that has been confirmed is the Blaziken thing. Like I said though, I don't think it's likely, I just wouldn't be shocked by it.