Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[RoyalDispenser]

Let's stop this Terapagos Stellar conversation: there was already a whole PR thread about it two years ago, which you can find here. While I agree that it would likely be balanced for the tier, it just simply isn't feasible under our tiering guidelines, and thus we must say goodbye to our turtly friend until a future generation.

Moving on, how does everyone feel about Heatran in the current metagame? It's been rising in usage lately, but do yall think this is a passing trend? Or a new member of OU?

Reading through that PR thread was such a shit show lol....

Still unconvinced why its not feasible under current guidelines cause that thread was basically 'its different for ubers bro!' as rebuttal to mega ray's button disable, ogrepon feeling like a privileged exception with preventing specific teras from being used, pro-ban getting haha'd but what really triggers me is this stretch of a reasoning;

I think what people on the "tier them separately" train are missing here is it's not actually possible to separate Terastal Form from Stellar Form in a way that works with usage-based tiering as it exists today. Let's ignore the fact that you can't separate Normal Form from Terastal Form either.

The functionality you're looking for doesn't exist

I genuinely do not give a fuck about the turtle... but brother, how is it not 'possible' to track usage? You mean to tell me no one knows how to patch a boolean check or send an argument for terapagos even for ubers? We can't reuse the tech for zygarde complete/megas? Mega Victreebel will not have tracking because we can't verify a 2nd victreebel form when it presses an identifical button?

This is so trivial to fix for C++ or java... please tell me a dev didn't genuinely self-report they couldn't implement this and that's the reasoning we're going with. That thread didn't conclude on why it can't be released cause frankly it ended with no real conclusion other than 'it is what it is'.

 

[FayaWizard]

Ok, apparently my message wasn't clear enough last time: stop the Terapagos Stellar discussion. It's been done to death multiple times over the past two years, it's already been officially rejected, and this isn't even the forum to discuss a potential unban for it! If you really to push for it again, go do it in Policy Review: this thread is for SV OU Metagame Discussion, not Policy Discussion.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Kinda funny that most of the Gen 8 staples are still kicking in OU.

i consider heatran less a gen 8 staple and more an "every gen since it was invented" staple. to me, the makeup of the tier is grouped something like this:

gen 8 staples (mons that were ou in gen 8 but not older gens)*
the vets (formerly ou but not in their most recent gen before this)
ol' reliables (consistently ou/uber over multiple gens including their most recent one before this)
the twins who switch places sometimes as a joke (one or the other was always ou before this but never both)
the new kids (introduced this gen or in legends arceus)
the uber fugitives (banned in all previous gens)
the rising stars (never ou in previous gens, but rose to prominence this gen)
the ex-cons (never ou in previous gens, except when they were banned from it)
just happy to be here (never ou in previous gens or this one but hey they have an ou analysis)

*volcanion and weavile did have other appearances in ou but haven't been consistent in that regard, so i'm lumping them in here

 

[Hon07rial]

Thoughts on Unaclef in this current meta? Is it completely washed and out of favor? Or does is it have unexplored potential?

 

[soupeater]

i consider heatran less a gen 8 staple and more an "every gen since it was invented" staple. to me, the makeup of the tier is grouped something like this:

the rising stars (never ou in previous gens, but rose to prominence this gen)

*volcanion and weavile did have other appearances in ou but haven't been consistent in that regard, so i'm lumping them in here

Ok I get Mola and Araq getting Flip Turn and Sticky Web respectively, and Gweezing obviously rising because of Ghold and Hamurott, but why were Hatt and Prim UU before this? Were they just competing too much with the tapus?

 

[658Greninja]

Ok I get Mola and Araq getting Flip Turn and Sticky Web respectively, and Gweezing obviously rising because of Ghold and Hamurott, but why were Hatt and Prim UU before this? Were they just competing too much with the tapus?

Hatt rose due to hazard stack being more prevalent in Gen 8.

Prima rose because it lost a major check in Ferrothron, the Tapus aren’t around to give it competition, and Toxapex isn’t common like in Gens 7-8.

 

[JackRG]

Thoughts on Unaclef in this current meta? Is it completely washed and out of favor? Or does is it have unexplored potential?

very good on balance imo. A major downside to unaware clef is it can no longer act as a knock off absorber but I don't think this is a major downside considering how well it pairs with corviknight, and unaware is a good tool to have on balance with all the setup cheese running around, and unlike dondozo it offers solid role compression with rocks.

 

[Pluim]

Ok, apparently my message wasn't clear enough last time: stop the Terapagos Stellar discussion. It's been done to death multiple times over the past two years, it's already been officially rejected, and this isn't even the forum to discuss a potential unban for it! If you really to push for it again, go do it in Policy Review: this thread is for SV OU Metagame Discussion, not Policy Discussion.

Alright, I'll move the discussion elsewhere. Is there any threads that are OU specific unban/policy changes? Can't post about it here, and don't think i can post in policy review as it is OU specific - since unbanning Terapagos and not allowing it to tera is similar asking to unban Annihilape and not allowing it to use Raging Fist - which I believe is an OU complex ban and is separate? Terapagos would still be tiered together (just that the stellar form is unusable legally) hence not being a policy query.

Moving on, imo Heatran kinda sucked in most matchups previously but I'm finding either I was just bad or the meta has shifts have helped it a ton (probably both lol). Specifically, the rise in some pokemon such as G-Weezing and Scizor, and more importantly the slot in the team Heatran takes being more open due to less Prim and slightly less G-Slowking.

Interesting to see Heatran and Tornadus on the rise again, pleasant seeing familiar faces from previous generation OUs potentially return, if not to SV OU at least to having somewhat of a place in the meta. Hoping to see at least one of them rise back up, and speaking of am shocked Lowkix hasn't arrived in OU as a newcomer but it too could come in the future - though there is competition with Scizor now in strong priority and both being bugs, but at the very least either way will have to wait and see.
All in all, am quite liking the state of these pokemon in the current meta and hoping to see continued success with them.

 

[TheTraininator]

My opinionated ass forcing myself to stay out of Terapagos discussion knowing it’s not going to go anywhere and just risk getting me in trouble:

I believe Hisuian Samurott has a ton of set potential that a lot of people have yet to truly unpack. Given the raw utility of its defensive typing and options like Taunt/Encore, there's a lot of ways that you can enable Hisuian Samurott itself to click Ceaseless Edge more freely while also providing a ton of utility to your team. I talk about why Hisuian Samurott is underutilized in my latest YouTube video!

What do you think of Hisuian Samurott in the current metagame? What are your favorite sets?

I’ve long believed Hisuian Samurott to be an insanely versatile and flexible threat that tends to be pidgeonholed into just running sash Ceaseless lead sets because it’s the easiest way to build it. A set I’ve pushed for a long time is Banded because people don’t expect it to be utilized like a breaker and can play sloppy around it, giving it the ability to unexpectedly smash through defensive cores with a deceptively strong dual-STAB and priority access. It also has a lot of underutilized utility buttons though like Taunt, Encore, Flip Turn for momentum, and even Copycat to duplicate other hazards.

 

[CodeFour]

I'm gonna go ahead and collect some haha reacts here. My thoughts, my recommendation going forward.

Im not alone in finding the game the most fun when there's new releases or changes right?

All users here have some idea of what would make the game "better". Often it's against smogon dogma for some reason. Fine.

I would like to see some outlet for trying these hypothetical metas played out. And I think everyone would appreciate it. I think a ladder with seasonal changes, without the goal actually being the pursuit of the purest smogon singles meta possible.

It would be fun. I'm most looking forward to Champions for the seasonal changes. I think Smogon could do it better...

It would also give us data to work with instead of theorymoning things currently not experienced.

Some "seasons" of 2 months or so could be silly, never to possible impact OU. It would generate conversations at times though. Is that so undesirable if kept in an isolation thread?

Naturally I just want to see a meta of no tera blast with some additions. But it could be also to run a no booster season. Or a baton pass season. No sleep ban. Terapagos. Solgaleo.

You get the idea. If council just keeps the line in it not dictating their movements I think it would be a positive, fun thing to do.

And when Solgaleo or similar comes up the data can be cited in response as either it was nuts during the seasonal ladder or yeah it was pretty balanced with a vague "were looking at it"

Respectfully

 

[FayaWizard]

Ignoring how this just sounds like a suspect ladder in a trench coat, this is not the forum to discuss this. All suggested policy changes are to be posted in Policy Review subforum. This thread is for discussion of the SV OU Metagame only, not arguing over policy or suggesting new ladders.

Putting this all aside, how do yall feel about Trick Room right now? With MRH1106 qualifying this cycle of OLT with a full Trick Room team, this is by far the greatest success this style has seen in a while. You can see a replay of their team in action here, and while there isn't a full paste available yet, they have interesting picks like Indeedee, Mimikyu, and Tera Stellar Hatterene, that you would not usually see. Will this style finally find its place in the metagame, or will it be another passing trend?

 

[JackRG]

Putting this all aside, how do yall feel about Trick Room right now? With MRH1106 qualifying this cycle of OLT with a full Trick Room team, this is by far the greatest success this style has seen in a while. You can see a replay of their team in action here, and while there isn't a full paste available yet, they have interesting picks like Indeedee, Mimikyu, and Tera Stellar Hatterene, that you would not usually see. Will this style finally find its place in the metagame, or will it be another passing trend?

TR is undoubtedly the best its ever been thanks to the addition of ursaluna, but I think it will always remain niche. Definitely viable at high levels of play, but I think this user qualifying is more a reflection of their own skill as a player rather than Trick room actually being super good.

 

[RyukTheDarkrai]

on my hands and knees praying someone works some form of magic with glastrier because i love it so much and i do not think it's fair one of the horses wound up beign so busted it ended up being banned to ubers twice and the other is like some zu tier shitmon

 

[Insolence]

I'm gonna go ahead and collect some haha reacts here. My thoughts, my recommendation going forward.

Im not alone in finding the game the most fun when there's new releases or changes right?

All users here have some idea of what would make the game "better". Often it's against smogon dogma for some reason. Fine.

I would like to see some outlet for trying these hypothetical metas played out. And I think everyone would appreciate it. I think a ladder with seasonal changes, without the goal actually being the pursuit of the purest smogon singles meta possible.

It would be fun. I'm most looking forward to Champions for the seasonal changes. I think Smogon could do it better...

It would also give us data to work with instead of theorymoning things currently not experienced.

Some "seasons" of 2 months or so could be silly, never to possible impact OU. It would generate conversations at times though. Is that so undesirable if kept in an isolation thread?

Naturally I just want to see a meta of no tera blast with some additions. But it could be also to run a no booster season. Or a baton pass season. No sleep ban. Terapagos. Solgaleo.

You get the idea. If council just keeps the line in it not dictating their movements I think it would be a positive, fun thing to do.

And when Solgaleo or similar comes up the data can be cited in response as either it was nuts during the seasonal ladder or yeah it was pretty balanced with a vague "were looking at it"

Respectfully

A big reason why we play CG OU is the competitiveness of the meta/ladder; if you've ever played lower tiers you know how long it can take to find a single game once you've reached the top of the ladder. Even in OU, you will often times chain queue into the same player when loading at high elo during off hours. Splitting the ladder (e.g., NatDex cannibalizing the OU playerbase) is a nonstarter due to this, and holding the test on the main ladder impacts metagame progress, as it takes time for major changes to spread. The ban of Moon wasn't fully felt until a month or two after its ban, with styles like Sun or Veil rising in popularity. Simultaneously, if we keep introducing or removing 'mons from the main metagame, we won't allow development to occur (see how the public perception of things like Wake or Kyurem changed over the course of their respective suspects).

There have been some attempts at doing these trials in older gens, like the SS No Boots tour, which had a pretty hefty prize pool, but most people just ended up just reusing teams, and the effects of the ban weren't really visible. There's too much inherent variance and hax in 'mons to analyze without a large sample size of games. The Champions seasonal model is the best approach, and I hope that's the direction we take once it releases (especially if the leaks about Gen 10 having no competitive mode are true).

 

[Hon07rial]

Ignoring how this just sounds like a suspect ladder in a trench coat, this is not the forum to discuss this. All suggested policy changes are to be posted in Policy Review subforum. This thread is for discussion of the SV OU Metagame only, not arguing over policy or suggesting new ladders.

Putting this all aside, how do yall feel about Trick Room right now? With MRH1106 qualifying this cycle of OLT with a full Trick Room team, this is by far the greatest success this style has seen in a while. You can see a replay of their team in action here, and while there isn't a full paste available yet, they have interesting picks like Indeedee, Mimikyu, and Tera Stellar Hatterene, that you would not usually see. Will this style finally find its place in the metagame, or will it be another passing trend?

There IS a full paste available now.
https://pokepast.es/f9ca480f93df3853
The team has been public for months and was even added to the OU room's /rfaq trickroom.

 

[TheTraininator]

TR is undoubtedly the best its ever been thanks to the addition of ursaluna, but I think it will always remain niche. Definitely viable at high levels of play, but I think this user qualifying is more a reflection of their own skill as a player rather than Trick room actually being super good.

What Trick Room truly needs is a powerful offensive bulky pivot that doubles as an abuser itself because its turn count is too restrictive in a singles context if the Pokémon that sets Trick Room up can’t also both effectively abuse it AND be able to float into other abusers to cover bad matchups. This is why Trick Room flourished when Magearna was legal in the tier since its Eject Pack Fleur Cannon set filled the exact niche that Trick Room so desperately craves, and there isn’t really any other Pokémon other than Magearna that can effectively replicate that. However, if ever there is one released, I betcha Trick Room may actually obtain stronger viability in singles. Ursaluna may be the best abuser Trick Room could ask for, but Trick Room was never hurting for good abusers.

 

[MRH1106]

Ignoring how this just sounds like a suspect ladder in a trench coat, this is not the forum to discuss this. All suggested policy changes are to be posted in Policy Review subforum. This thread is for discussion of the SV OU Metagame only, not arguing over policy or suggesting new ladders.

Putting this all aside, how do yall feel about Trick Room right now? With MRH1106 qualifying this cycle of OLT with a full Trick Room team, this is by far the greatest success this style has seen in a while. You can see a replay of their team in action here, and while there isn't a full paste available yet, they have interesting picks like Indeedee, Mimikyu, and Tera Stellar Hatterene, that you would not usually see. Will this style finally find its place in the metagame, or will it be another passing trend?

as THE trick room guy in question i personally think TR is pretty solid right now as long as you play well the main issues are people cteaming and not being able to read your opponent since TR generally relies on getting turns correct to get kills in time oh also my team is very public and anyone who wants the main paste as well as any of the other versions of it just go to /rfaq TR in OU chat ill also be posting a RMT explaining how to use the team and whatnot sometime soon (probably tomorrow)

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Ignoring how this just sounds like a suspect ladder in a trench coat, this is not the forum to discuss this. All suggested policy changes are to be posted in Policy Review subforum. This thread is for discussion of the SV OU Metagame only, not arguing over policy or suggesting new ladders.

Just answer this and pin it somewhere bro;

Alright, I'll move the discussion elsewhere. Is there any threads that are OU specific unban/policy changes? Can't post about it here, and don't think i can post in policy review as it is OU specific

I don't get why you guys have no weenie hut junior's policy review for badgeless members to voice concerns or ideas then police them from suggesting anything in the only forum accessible+relevant to the metagame or act surprised when this happens. DMs do not suffice for public discussion and Chaos days should end the debate on that.

It would make your lives 10x easier to just have an dedicated location for new/badgeless members to shitpost at instead of this every weekend, next weekend you'll probably be saying the same thing when someone brings up unbanning fucking lugia or some shit.

7 members thought the topic wasn't trivial enough to discuss it with little to no debate, give them an accessible location to discuss it especially when the policy review thread itself used to close discussion was very much infact split/heavily leaning for the topic.

 

[Finchinator]

If you have problems with Terapagos, Tera tiering, or anything else that goes beyond the scope of this thread — which is intended for current metagame discussion — PM me. My PMs have been and will remain open to discussion of tiering.

I will happily relay what people have to say to the council if it’s noteworthy. I will happily go back-and-forth with you if there are points of contention or misunderstanding. I will at a minimum hear everyone out.

This thread is not for that. It is for discussion of the current metagame. Tiering of current metagame Pokemon can be discussed, too. Nothing more or less. Thanks

 

[CooolTrainer]

My 3 wishes:
1. Ban Gholdengo.
2. Tossing a coin. If heads, Ban Waterpon. If tails, unban Archaludon.
3. Ban Gliscor.

Honorable mentions: Full BP Unban (If people cry too much,Dry Pass allowed is enough), Ban Spikes + Rocks on same team (Stone Axe and Ceaseless Edge not affected), and Ban Daddy Buzzwole (he is not legal in Paldea).

I not good, but I’ve found Gliscor pretty underwhelming lately with the amount of breakers and Corv running around. What set do you think is the most disruptive?

 

[Eeveeto]

I not good, but I’ve found Gliscor pretty underwhelming lately with the amount of breakers and Corv running around. What set do you think is the most disruptive?

Most people think its SD, but for me that one is kinda fine. Spikes punishes passive turns way too much however, and makes many Mons and strats straight up unviable. The fact that one of the best counterplays to that set is SD Gliscor doesnt help.

 

[Seraphyde]

it's been a while.

i figure the best way to come back is by detailing my opinions on the current meta:

• things are a lot better since roaring moon got the boot. there are still problematic elements, but i could, in theory, live with this being the final version of the meta. that said, there's tiering action i would very much like to see, however unrealistic it may be
• this guy is still a massive unaddressed problem and i refuse to let it slip into the background. all of its nominal answers fold like a cheap suit to some tera or other. it makes me sick
• please get rid of this thing. waterpon is so restrictive in builder it isn't even funny anymore. if i find myself slotting in tera grass on one more defensive mon and getting murked by uturn anyway i'm going to write an article about how the loyal three did nothing wrong. i don't even care if the suspect song is that stupid dream song about the mask, i just want her gone
• i'm not fully sure how i feel about dragonite. it's very very strong, it's got some dumb guess-my-set elements to it, and new tech has emerged that lets it beat a lot of its historical answers (not that there are many; this whole gen it's had only a handful of things that can consistently deal with it). but it seems like all of its new tech leans heavily on the surprise factor, and once a new dnite tech goes from niche to expected it becomes way easier to play around because it's a very linear mon. for example, i got completely dumpstered by that ghost tb/low kick set exactly one time and then never lost to it again, and i didn't have to change my team at all to address it, just the way i was playing. i would like to see a suspect on dnite, but i don't know how i would vote on it at this time
• i don't actually think this is that problematic at the moment but i'm still mad about the last suspect
• listen. i will die on this hill. i don't think gholdengo is a healthy presence here, i think it makes the hazard game incredibly lopsided even with geezing being a thing now, and i firmly believe things would be better if it were gone
• can we have a suspect to put these things in uu? what are they still hanging around here for. they're the new meowscarada
• tera blast: i could live with or without tera blast. i think it provides some nice elements and promotes diversity by giving coverage or good stab to stuff that needs it, but it's also objectively the defining factor in two bans at the absolute minimum and something like seven or eight at most and in principle it's kind of ridiculous that anything can get any coverage it wants. my biggest worry about suspecting it is that we'll get greedy and drop a bunch of brokens that no one asked for and the community will end up stockholm-syndromed into never getting rid of them. i would fully throw my weight behind a tera blast ban if and only if there's a clear plan of action laid out for what is happening after it, and only if that plan of action includes nothing being quickdropped besides regieleki. volc needs a test, gouging fire and roaring moon should be very low on the priority list, and espathra shouldn't even be considered

so that's my take on the current meta. what do you guys think are the biggest problems right now?

• I don't even necessarily disagree but the exact same thing can be said about Dnite but people keep glazing the fat fuck for some reason. Gambit is just as if not more one-dimensional and it only appears to be harder to deal with because it's a bit less predictable in practice, but frankly it cannot do as much as people say it can. Speaking of which
• I do not disagree that Dragonite techs can become expected but the issue is that at a certain point there's so many different techs arising that it now becomes impossible to fully expect all of them. You can only run into so many before you inevitably forget one of the ones that sniped you beforehand and end up getting sniped by it again. I guarantee that you will forget that TB Ghost/Low Kick is a thing and end up being gimped by it at least once before this year ends.
• If you are actually getting read on your Tera Grass by U-Turn variants, it's because you are making predictable plays. Don't really have much else to say. It is not that hard to kill.
• listen. i will die on this hill. i think gholdengo is a healthy presence here, i think it makes the hazard game a lot better even with geezing being a thing now, and i firmly believe things would be worse if it were gone

 

[Hon07rial]

• I don't even necessarily disagree but the exact same thing can be said about Dnite but people keep glazing the fat fuck for some reason. Gambit is just as if not more one-dimensional and it only appears to be harder to deal with because it's a bit less predictable in practice, but frankly it cannot do as much as people say it can. Speaking of which
• I do not disagree that Dragonite techs can become expected but the issue is that at a certain point there's so many different techs arising that it now becomes impossible to fully expect all of them. You can only run into so many before you inevitably forget one of the ones that sniped you beforehand and end up getting sniped by it again. I guarantee that you will forget that TB Ghost/Low Kick is a thing and end up being gimped by it at least once before this year ends.
• If you are actually getting read on your Tera Grass by U-Turn variants, it's because you are making predictable plays. Don't really have much else to say. It is not that hard to kill.
• listen. i will die on this hill. i think gholdengo is a healthy presence here, i think it makes the hazard game a lot better even with geezing being a thing now, and i firmly believe things would be worse if it were gone

Can you please elaborate on your Gholdengo point?
It is a unique opinion and I'm interested in hearing it out in detail.

 

[JackRG]

Can you please elaborate on your Gholdengo point?
It is a unique opinion and I'm interested in hearing it out in detail.

he's a troll, he's gone on record saying rapid spin should be banned lol.

So this isn't a one liner: What do people think about specs atm? I don't really see it much anymore, but I think it's still a strong set despite its hatred of and due to its ability to outrun and threaten a ton of offensive guys while being able to abuse it's checks with uturn + hazards. Draco, shadow ball, and u turn are all must on specs sets obviously but I've been messing around with hex in the last slot, Its very dangerous late game once status has been spread and is particularly good at abusing non tera normal .

 

[Avira]

he's a troll, he's gone on record saying rapid spin should be banned lol.

So this isn't a one liner: What do people think about specs atm? I don't really see it much anymore, but I think it's still a strong set despite its hatred of and due to its ability to outrun and threaten a ton of offensive guys while being able to abuse it's checks with uturn + hazards. Draco, shadow ball, and u turn are all must on specs sets obviously but I've been messing around with hex in the last slot, Its very dangerous late game once status has been spread and is particularly good at abusing non tera normal .

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. Seraphyde's not a troll, just a very bad HO player who doesn't know how to make progress without easy hazards, which is one of the reasons he has at least on one occasion called Great Tusk banworthy 'cause of Rapid Spin and only wants mons that low ELO HO teams struggle against to be banned.

I believe Specs Dragapult is still a decent option especially since Draco Meteor is still a big threat to Garganacl unless it's Tera Fairy, but being Choice-locked can always be taken advantage of, especially since there are immunities to Dragapult's two STAB types. Additionally, a -2 Draco Meteor can be punished by so many mons, and in this really offensive meta, you don't really want to give any mon a free turn to set up, which is why Choiced mons aren't really that common this gen.