Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [ survey results -- see post 21,221 ]

...I will not give any names but the ban arguments from certain users on Kyurem and Gliscor, as well as Gouging Fire and previous DLC1 and Home suspects, were just as abrasive and filled with disinformation, fearmongering, bad logic, opinions argued as the holy truth, and ad hominem attacks. I've been told talking about banned mons is not allowed here, but I'd be happy to argue why they aren't broken, particularly Volcarona. Personally i'm kinda indifferent on Gouging and Moon though I'd prefer to see them unbanned, but I'm confident the Volcarona thing was orchestrated. So if you're interested, you can DM me and I would present to you the reasons why Volc ought to be retested and its positive qualities. I agree that Solgaleo itself also deserves a retest.
You say you won't give names but DB did (CTC on the Gouging Fire Suspects), so naming specific examples that support your perspective that toxic comments were made is already on the table if you had any to list.

Discussing banned mons is typically frowned upon because this thread is to discuss the Metagame, which by virtue of the ban they do not factor into save for discussing trends in the immediate weeks following their removal. If you're going to make such statements as "the Volcarona thing was orchestrated" (which is an EXTREMELY loaded word so you need to be prepared to elaborate or clarify) and several posts that pertain to the tier player base's attitude/philosophy toward suspects and bans this Gen, you need to substantiate your points rather than share the premise, and thisis assuming this is even something that can be talked here instead of in an appropriate Policy Review thread (that's Admin/Mod call more than mine).
 
I see Grasspon being used on bootspam hazard stacking balances, since unlike Waterpon, it can hold boots

An example team I saw would be
:sv/gliscor: :sv/ting-lu: :sv/ogerpon: :sv/clefable: :sv/slowking-galar: :sv/walking wake:

However waterpon is usually used on faster paced teams where you won’t feel her hazard weakness as much
So the niche each of them fill are not the same.
Maybe Choice Band Grasspon could rise, but that’s it,
I agree that Ogerpon has a niche on teams like this but it’s hard for me to go with it as a knocker/breaker over since you have to add yet another ice weakness for Kyurem to feast on.
 
You say you won't give names but DB did (CTC on the Gouging Fire Suspects), so naming specific examples that support your perspective that toxic comments were made is already on the table if you had any to list.

Discussing banned mons is typically frowned upon because this thread is to discuss the Metagame, which by virtue of the ban they do not factor into save for discussing trends in the immediate weeks following their removal. If you're going to make such statements as "the Volcarona thing was orchestrated" (which is an EXTREMELY loaded word so you need to be prepared to elaborate or clarify) and several posts that pertain to the tier player base's attitude/philosophy toward suspects and bans this Gen, you need to substantiate your points rather than share the premise, and thisis assuming this is even something that can be talked here instead of in an appropriate Policy Review thread (that's Admin/Mod call more than mine).
Shaymin Sky's arguments were pretty egregious in my opinion. Dude was acting like he was holding the solution (of course, ban lots of mons via council votes, which is what i would call an anti-democratic, pro-ZapKingLu position) so yeah CTC's arguments can't be discussed standalone imo
 
Ok, this conversation has long outlived any relevance or usefulness. Agree or disagree with suspect verdicts, that’s entirely up to you, but this thread has been off-topic for more than a page now and clearly shows no sign of stopping. Any further posts about this will be deleted.

To give a new topic of discussion, SCL is soon to start, and as with any major tournament, we will likely see new meta shifts, with Pokemon and sets rising and falling. Especially coming off the heels of OLT, its very likely that the metagame could shift drastically, and it's always fun to try and predict these in advance.

1: What is a Pokemon/set you think will see a rise in usage?
2: What is a Pokemon/set you think will see a fall in usage?
3: What do you think will be the best archetype by the end of the tournament?
Bonus: what do you think will be suspected after the tournament, if any?
 
Ok, this conversation has long outlived any relevance or usefulness. Agree or disagree with suspect verdicts, that’s entirely up to you, but this thread has been off-topic for more than a page now and clearly shows no sign of stopping. Any further posts about this will be deleted.

To give a new topic of discussion, SCL is soon to start, and as with any major tournament, we will likely see new meta shifts, with Pokemon and sets rising and falling. Especially coming off the heels of OLT, its very likely that the metagame could shift drastically, and it's always fun to try and predict these in advance.

1: What is a Pokemon/set you think will see a rise in usage?
2: What is a Pokemon/set you think will see a fall in usage?
3: What do you think will be the best archetype by the end of the tournament?
Bonus: what do you think will be suspected after the tournament, if any?

:heatran:
I think Heatran has a chance to rise in usage as players are starting to embrace Lava Plume as it's main source of damage instead of malding over Magma storm misses while still being able to troll fat teams with taunt. Granted, its usage could also go south if it's main roadblocks Alo and Kyruem see more play

:samurott-hisui:
Taunt H-Samurott might also be on the rise given how it can stop G-Weezing from defoging/wisping despite not being able to hit it very hard (also helps that G-Weezing prefers to run Sludge bomb or Flamethrower for damage) as well as having applications vs other switch-ins like Corv.

Not sure about what's going to fall off that isn't already alling atm.

As for team structures, Bulky Offense is probably going to see the most play given how it has the perfect mixture of power plays and consistency.
 
Ok Faya I'll throw you a bone. I looked at the recent 1825 Usage stats for month-on-month differences for July and August to figure out pre and post OLT trends. TL;DR - major changes up were Glimmora, Galarian Slowking, and Kyurem with 5%+ differences in usage. Glowking's set didn't change much (basically Future Sight instead of Flamethrower), but Glimmora and Kyurem found some "new" sets. Here are the diffs below:

July Glimmora
:sv/Glimmora:
Glimmora @ Red Card
Ability: Toxic Debris
EVs: 248 HP / 132 Def / 128 SpD
Timid Nature
Tera type: Ghost
- Earth Power
- Mortal Spin
- Stealth Rock
- Power Gem

August Glimmora
:sv/Glimmora:
Glimmora @ Power Herb
Ability: Toxic Debris
EVs: 4 HP / 8 Def / 248 SpA / 248 Spe
Modest Nature
Tera type: Ghost
- Earth Power
- Mortal Spin
- Stealth Rock
- Meteor Beam

The change here is the Power Herb to boost Meteor Beam turn 1 for a more offensive approach turn 1. Since Glimmora isn't that bulky by OU standards, might as well take a turn to lure in Landorus-Therian and other early game hazard setters.

July Kyurem
:sv/Kyurem:
Kyurem @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Freeze Dry
- Earth Power
- Icicle Spear
- Ice Beam / Scale Shot

August Kyurem
:sv/Kyurem:
Kyurem @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 56 HP / 200 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Freeze-Dry
- Earth Power
- Substitute
- Ice Beam / Protect

Kyurem can run as many as 10-15 viable sets in SV OU. The switch to a Sub pressure set to me is a rotation back to the sets that warranted the suspect test to begin with. I'll table the necessity of a third suspect test for now for the thread's sanity, but the Sub sets are another equally oppressive set alongside the Dragon Dance ones. My personal favorite Kyurem set is still its DD Tera Fire set with mixed EVs I posted a while ago, but Kyurem has so many cracked sets that I don't consider one better than the other.

I'm also watching Ceruledge only because its Weak Armour SD Bitter Blade set has farmed me more than I want to admit, but I do think that's more of a playstyle adjustment versus a teambuilding adjustment. Have to be careful with physical attacks and it becomes more manageable.

OLT is a unique beast and is a nice crucible to build the sets that end up cementing themselves as tournament staples. Watch Glimmora and Kyurem in SCL. My guess is no Suspect tests until 2026.
 
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Ok, this conversation has long outlived any relevance or usefulness. Agree or disagree with suspect verdicts, that’s entirely up to you, but this thread has been off-topic for more than a page now and clearly shows no sign of stopping. Any further posts about this will be deleted.

To give a new topic of discussion, SCL is soon to start, and as with any major tournament, we will likely see new meta shifts, with Pokemon and sets rising and falling. Especially coming off the heels of OLT, its very likely that the metagame could shift drastically, and it's always fun to try and predict these in advance.

1: What is a Pokemon/set you think will see a rise in usage?
2: What is a Pokemon/set you think will see a fall in usage?
3: What do you think will be the best archetype by the end of the tournament?
Bonus: what do you think will be suspected after the tournament, if any?
1. Tornt and heatran will def see a rise as a way to punish bulky team structures and provide their own defensive utility. Enam i feel will also rise as it can very easily muscle through mons like pecha and corv while providing a solid defensive profile with its typing and healing wish
2. Im seeing stuff like moth are def gonna take a even bigger hit with how poorly it does against bulky archetypes especially with ting lu. Theres far less reason to keep it on a team these days. but thats a given tbh. Smth that i will guess that could fall off is prob webs and specifically araq. Its heavily overprepped for atm and tbh ribombee has more going for it
3. BO and balance will def reign supreme with HO and offense on the back burner for now. Ho especially is a bit clunky to use given the amount of anti ho mons are so common even if they may be found on ho as well(gambit ting dnite zama)
bonus. If i were to guess i'd say either wellspring or dnite atm. Given that tb isnt going anywhere, and theres been a loud minority to get rid of these guys, theres prob gonna be at least one of these goobers on the chopping block
 
Ok, this conversation has long outlived any relevance or usefulness. Agree or disagree with suspect verdicts, that’s entirely up to you, but this thread has been off-topic for more than a page now and clearly shows no sign of stopping. Any further posts about this will be deleted.

To give a new topic of discussion, SCL is soon to start, and as with any major tournament, we will likely see new meta shifts, with Pokemon and sets rising and falling. Especially coming off the heels of OLT, its very likely that the metagame could shift drastically, and it's always fun to try and predict these in advance.

1: What is a Pokemon/set you think will see a rise in usage?
2: What is a Pokemon/set you think will see a fall in usage?
3: What do you think will be the best archetype by the end of the tournament?
Bonus: what do you think will be suspected after the tournament, if any?
1. :Samurott-hisui: for sure. It's fallen off a bit recently but I think it will rise back up as people continue to experiment with sets like taunt and SD to more reliably keep hazards up aganist :weezing-galar:. I feel like every time this mon "falls off" it always comes back and its easy to see why.

2. Not really sure, maybe :gliscor:? It's still good but recent metagame trends have been unfavorable to it for sure.

3. Bulky Offense for sure. It's been consistently one of, if not the best archetype throughout the generation and recent shifts have only seemed to favor it.

4. I don't think :dragonite: will be suspected, if people don't find tera blast problematic enough I don't see them finding :dragonite: too much of an issue either, given how much the two are linked. I think :ogerpon-wellspring: has a high chance of getting suspected since it's by far the most controversial pokemon that hasn't been suspected yet, and recently it's begun to experiment with new options like taunt and synthesis that will likely continue to see usage throughout SCL, making it even harder to deal with.
 
Ok, this conversation has long outlived any relevance or usefulness. Agree or disagree with suspect verdicts, that’s entirely up to you, but this thread has been off-topic for more than a page now and clearly shows no sign of stopping. Any further posts about this will be deleted.

To give a new topic of discussion, SCL is soon to start, and as with any major tournament, we will likely see new meta shifts, with Pokemon and sets rising and falling. Especially coming off the heels of OLT, its very likely that the metagame could shift drastically, and it's always fun to try and predict these in advance.

1: What is a Pokemon/set you think will see a rise in usage?
2: What is a Pokemon/set you think will see a fall in usage?
3: What do you think will be the best archetype by the end of the tournament?
Bonus: what do you think will be suspected after the tournament, if any?
going by the trends in the tournaments here's some genuine takes.

I think Fezandipiti will rise pretty wildly giving the later usage in olt and people talking about in the ethos. Previously really just i used it and people made fun of it as a meme, however in OLT and in recent ladder usage I am seeing an uptick. Ill even share my set for the team that got #1
Fezandipiti @ Leftovers
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Moonblast
- Sludge Bomb
- Tera Blast

but others run physical, some like even SD.

Also, i predict and notice that ursarang's evolution (the name escapes me the giant normal/ground bear) will continue to rise. it's genuinely one of the best mons in ou and i see how people are making it work. personally I think trick room is an extremely lazy route to go with it.
now. sadly, as this is a competitive game less fun shit will be run more, specifically alomomola, and Ting lu, and galarian slowking.


2: What is a Pokemon/set you think will see a fall in usage?
greninja, dondozo, toxapex, and meteor beam poison ground

3. no opinion.

bonus: kyu most likely, possibly darkrai.

ghold should have been gone but i dont see that happening
 
Fezandipiti definitely feels like fringe OU potential with the right set. The set above is a nice balance breaker. I have experimented with Weakness Policy double dancing sets that I couldn't quite get to work, but could in theory. In the worst case scenario, Moonblast / Heat Wave / Roost / U-turn on Fezandipiti handles Dragapult, Zamazenta, and Kyurem fairly well.

:sv/Fezandipiti:
F.E.S. (Fezandipiti) @ Shuca Berry / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 16 HP / 252 SpA / 240 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Agility
- Moonblast
- Heat Wave

:sv/Fezandipiti:
Fezandipiti @ Shuca Berry / Heavy-Duty Boots
Level: 100
Modest Nature
Tera Type: Fire / Water
Ability: Toxic Chain
EVs: 248 HP / 208 SpA / 52 SpD
- Heat Wave
- U-turn
- Roost
- Moonblast

EV spread here lives Make it Rain from Gholdengo and 2HKOs back with Heat Wave. Can adjust with more bulk (124 SpA / 136 SpD) to 2HKO Kyurem. The Tera type I'm not as sure on.

As for Ursaluna, Trick Room might be "lazy", but it's extremely effective in getting it in with a chance to wreck things for three turns (and Dynamax meta veterans know the power of having three turns to sweep.) I still prefer the SD Guts set, but I have seen Bulletproof Resttalk sets in RMTs that were really well designed.
 
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1: What is a Pokemon/set you think will see a rise in usage?
Zapdos. It takes hits well from Torn-T—even +2 LO Heat Wave isn’t oneshotting, and Zapdos threatens to cripple it for clicking Knock or Uturn while doing good damage with Volt Switch. Ting-Lu, while still extremely common, has seen declining usage because builds are dedicating more resources to breaking through it and because robust hazard removal to enable Waterpon’s longevity has been an increasingly common aspect of recent builds. That same hazard removal can be leveraged by Zapdos to run Helmet, Lefties, or AV, or just to allow it to absorb Knock Off while threatening to cripple enemies (I would also suggest giving Yache Berry a try—being able to cripple or kill Darkrai, Weavile, Kyurem, and boosted Tusk without using tera can be extremely valuable and it allows you to tech tera Dragon or Grass for SD Woger while still having ice insurance, or Water while having freeze-dry insurance). That same hazard removal ALSO tends to rely heavily on Great Tusk, which Zapdos counters while also really appreciating ground types being removed; while some teams will stack up on ground types due to…multiple of them being really fucking good mons, that can be exploited elsewhere on the team with other rising stars like Rillaboom or well-established threats like Kyurem, Darkrai, Tusk, Woger, Primarina, and Hamurott. I could see Heat Wave being teched more often to deal with Treads seeing as its presence in the hazard metagame has grown lately, maybe even the occasional Weather Ball with Glowking to exploit Gliscor.
2: What is a Pokemon/set you think will see a fall in usage?
Honestly, Dragapult. It’s still Pult, it’ll stay good, don’t get me wrong. But I expect it to see less usage for a few reasons. The current meta has a bunch of checks to it baked in like Kingambit and Ting Lu. Some of the rising stars and many established threats (Heatran, Tyranitar, Dragonite, Raging Bolt, Iron Treads) are good at taking a hit and firing back hard while the biggest recent winner in Torn-T will do the above while healing off chip with regen. Its boots set runs into a lot more Gholds, AV Hatts, and Ceruledges than it would like, all of which don’t care about wisp, can take on unboosted hex, and easily take or even exploit dragon coverage and uturn; these 3 make frequent appearances on veil, an archetype that boots Pult is supposed to do well into thanks to infiltrator. Defensively, while it provides speed control, spinblocking, and a short-term check to Zamazenta and Waterpon, and while it is adept at generating momentum thanks to uturn and status, it is more liable than ever to get overwhelmed by the threats it is meant to check. As the meta moves towards fatter structures with more “trade merchants” and just generally sturdier offense, Pult can find itself unable to stay healthy for long enough to pull it’s weight. As a spinblocker, it faces stiff competition from Gholdengo, Pecharunt, and Sinistcha, all of which are better at spinblocking itself (not that I am saying Pech or Sini are better than Pult overall, though I do think Sini is underrated, but that’s for another day); spinblocking is also itself a bit worse than it used to be since more teams are opting towards other forms of hazard control like Hatt and Gweezing. Specs is a bit of a liability against Torn-T teams where it can be scouted multiple times without yielding much progress; these structures tend to include mons like Ting Lu, Gweezing, and Heatran which can take advantage of some or all of specs Pult’s coverage options. Band hogs tera while struggling with Gambit and to a lesser extent Gweezing. Again, it’s still a great mon with great role compression, and it can be supported appropriately to handle longer games or to alleviate its defensive responsibilities, but it gets blanked a lot for something as high-ranked as it is and faces down a more hostile meta than usual right now.
3: What do you think will be the best archetype by the end of the tournament?
BO/Balance still. Would love to be contrarian if for no other reason than it making for interesting discussion, but I don’t see any reason for the meta to deviate from these archetypes atm. I could see heightened usage of sun, TR, and paraspam, and we all know veil’s been popping up a lot lately, but I can’t see any of these becoming THE dominant archetype.
Bonus: what do you think will be suspected after the tournament, if any?
Waterpon would be first up, both in the sense that I see it as the top priority and in that I can see it garnering sufficient support. I don’t think anything except maybe Gholdengo has greater influence on the metagame, it is the best breaker in the tier bar none whose main defensive contributions are to invalidate almost a whole type’s worth of offensive threats and to kind of switch into Tusk and Treads. Speaking of which, its ability to come in on Tusk and Treads is itself a contribution to the hazard metagame by allowing it to 1) limit their usable turns, 2) keep them out, and 3) flat out exploit the use of spin. This, alongside it using spikes effectively (again, without letting in spinners) is a big part of bolstering its own effectiveness on hazard stack teams that can’t slot in robust hazard removal—it may not appreciate opposing hazards, and much of the robust hazard removal we see IS as a method of enabling Waterpon, but it still routes quite well in games where hazards are a dominant force (please please consider this point next time you’re tempted to say “Waterpon is countered by hazards”).

And no, Mola does not become broken if Waterpon is banned, ffs.
 
Confused by the moderation choices here...didnt you just prompt for what could be suspected?? Does that not include suspects back to the tier? lol

Anyway...to repeat the other stuff I mentioned, now in an abbreviated form bc I'm not wasting my time typing things for a forum where it just gets deleted:

I think:
  • much more fat will be present. :ogerpon wellspring: will get a lot of ire
  • Fast nasty plot fat-breakers will be used, like :darkrai::tornadus-therian::deoxys-speed:
  • Sun and TR will be counter trend; hazard-based/booster-based HOs will stink
  • Choice item breakers will be good, with :slowking-galar::alomomola::cinderace: pivot teams being strong to get them in
  • If ogerpon gets suspected, then :alomomola: and/or :ting lu: will be close to follow. AV mola is going to be the dominant mola set at high elo
I am curious if the NP breaker trend is just a fad or something that's gonna stick around. NP Rai is pretty great (always has been) and consistent, I agree, but NP Deo-S has felt like a fish where its either a god or does nothing from my exp using it (chalking this up more as a skill issue). Facing it is another story since you don't know what its running, so its pretty scary + Standard speed control options are not good into it. Using it feels a bit more fishy. Still, I do think Deo-S's versatility is a big point in its favor and will let it adapt to pressuring all sorts of teams with various techs, even on other sets besides NP.

Torn-T I think is kind of OK, but its mostly because of those Knock / Turn Sets. I haven't found the NP sets to be too scary yet - feels like it gets cheesed out easily between the bad accuracy of its moves + its speed being a bit slower than some key benchmarks like Darkrai, Dragapult, Weavile, etc.

Speaking of Weavile, I'm not sure why its considered "worse" now than it was before? Knock Off users with Ice moves feel impossible to switch to and I'd say its in the top of that crowd, with other mons w/ this combo like Deo-S, Darkrai, Meow, and a few others not being too far behind. I feel the notion that this mon fell off to be wrong and I think players will remember that this mon is pretty crazy. Same applies to other mons like Pult. Still consider these two some of the scariest mons in the tier.

For other mons rising up, I'd say the "alternative rockers" like Heatran will continue rising up. I think Pokemon like Heatran providing Rocks utility helps a lot in letting other Pokemon like Great Tusk, Garganacl, and Clefable run actually good sets instead of being delegated to Rocks utility. Not that these Pokemon are bad rockers neccisarily, but the issue is that they sacrifice a lot to run Rocks instead of other sets which I consider far better. I've been using Empoleon lately, and while it is kind of shit compared to Heatran, running Rocks on it has been nice to open up the other members on my team. I also think offensive, fast Spikers like Deo-S, Meow, etc. will also rise up, but that's kinda been a prediction I've had for a while so maybe its cheating a bit lol.

If we had suspects, I'm guessing either Dragonite, Gambit, or Wellspring would get tested. Kyurem and Darkrai are also candidates. Personally don't want any of them banned though, espicially Gambit.
 
Hi everyone. It’s been a bit since I’ve actually posted here. SV OU Trio Tour II is coming to an end I think I ought to highlight some interesting sets like I did last year.

Round 1:

The tour starts off and here is a game between goldmason and Akeras. Round 1 is the best round for fun random stuff.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2410334955

Set

Dudunsparce @ ?
Ability: Rattled
Tera Type: ?
EVs: ?
Nature: ?
- Glare
- Stealth Rock
- Boomburst
- Flamethrower

Here Dudunsparce is brought as a Stealth Rock lead. Interesting choice. It seems Dudunsparce has quite some unique traits. It has Glare, which can mess up potential removers such as Great Tusk and Corviknight. Rattled punishes U-turn users, providing a quicker Glare. Boomburst is pretty neat with its decent attack and Flamethrower provides additional coverage. Dudunsparce is able to get Stealth Rocks up, and cripple both Tinkaton and Corviknight.

(Round 2 Nat vs. B1Kharma https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2411005996-wqjaakjgpjgg2xsew0gj9jvetfoxpd2pw
Nat also brought the same team, and Dudunsparce is able to do its job again and get rocks up. )

Round 3:

We have Saaaaakill vs. Nakoruru_XD in a series already decided, so the funny stuff can be brought. And what Saaaaakill brought was indeed crazy.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2417217156-02n8va7s975k4nqoic58g0cyrvn6thppw

I’m not going to go over the Bellibolt (should be Ampharos smh) as it’s been used a good deal before. Instead, I want to go over this wild Talonflame set.

Set
Talonflame @ Choice Specs
Ability: Gale Wings
Tera Type: Probably Flying
EVs: Probably 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
- Hurricane
- ?
- ?
- ?

Alright, this set is wacky indeed. This set seems to attempt to fully take advantage of Gale Wings in an extremely high risk Rain team. You have some absurd priority amped up with Specs. Obviously this set needs Rocks off at all times. Saaaaakill manages to use Treads to remove the problematic hazard and Talonflame just tears through the team once Tinkaton is removed.

Round 4:
Pinecoishot has a pivotal matchup vs. Mister McLovin. And the mon brought is Volneat with its literal Random Battle moveset. And on top of that it actually does stuff.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2423495064-lkmbi4t0wqsm730pdqwgkg7xxnbfk48pw

Set

Volbeat @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: ?
EVs: ?
Nature: ?
- U-turn
- Thunder Wave
- Roost
- Probably Encore

This is literally the Random Battle moveset, and somehow it works just as well. Volbeat quickly gets into the action and forces Kyurem out with the threat of Encore. It proceeds to chip Ting-Lu down and consistently switches into Ting-Lu and Great Tusk. Encore is overpowered in this tier, and Bug is actually a nice defensive type in a tier that is heavy with Ground coverage (That’s why there’s so much Tera Bug Ceruledge running around).

Semifinals:

This one isn’t as wild as the others and is probably pretty standard, but I thought there was a cool set with leng loi vs. Xuwu. Here we have a stallbreaker Enamorus-T loading into stall.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-866871

Enamorus-T @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Overcoat
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: ?
Nature: Probably Modest
- Calm Mind
- Taunt
- Draining Kiss
- Earth Power

Covert Cloak is really cool, as this means Enamorus can beat Garg one on one. Taunt is the anti stall tool. Here we see Enamorus just brute force its way pass Blissey and block Toxapex from using Toxic with Taunt.

Hope y’all enjoyed!
 
1: What is a Pokemon/set you think will see a rise in usage?
2: What is a Pokemon/set you think will see a fall in usage?
3: What do you think will be the best archetype by the end of the tournament?
Bonus: what do you think will be suspected after the tournament, if any?
  1. :samurott-hisui: i think hamurott's due to pop off. i've been seeing a lot more innovation on it recently, stuff like resttalk (yes really), rocky helmet, taunt, generally a lot more focus on utility and role-compression stuff that hamurott wasn't doing much of before. it's been suffering a little due to the rise of geezing but i think the new techs people are cooking up will flip the script on that
  2. :araquanid: we all love it when some random low-tier mon gets an established foothold in ou, so i'm kinda sad to have to say this, but araquanid is definitely on the road back to nu. webs are in a really rough spot right now with all the bo and balance teams running around, and everyone has some easy answer for araq these days. webs thrives on teams that aren't prepped for dealing with the webs lead, so i think we'll see the archetype leaning towards ribombee again in the future until that becomes the websmon that gets prepped for
  3. definitely either bulky offense or offense-heavy balance. which one is number 1 or number 2 at a given time will depend on, i dunno, the phases of the moon probably. the wind is blowing in the direction of fat, but the recent trend of fatbreakers like np torn and heatran is holding back the fattest balance teams. in my opinion, the meta's managed to adapt to fat balance structures by using formerly overlooked but still viable mons, and i'd like to see the meta move more in this direction. we're very close to what may be the ideal state for svou, in the absence of tiering actions that aren't going to happen. we have a good diversity of archetypes and nothing is really being invalidated right now, all we need is to kick out a problem or two and we're gucci i think
  4. :ogerpon-wellspring: people talk about dnite a lot, but i think if there's a suspect post-scl (which there likely will be) then it'll be waterpon. the mon is just intolerable to build around and play around without actually bringing much, if anything, of use to the tier that couldn't be replicated by something else. i'll skip the thirty-page essay because virtually everything to be said about waterpon has already gotten said, people have been complaining about this shitter since before firepon was even banned
 
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To give a new topic of discussion, SCL is soon to start, and as with any major tournament, we will likely see new meta shifts, with Pokemon and sets rising and falling. Especially coming off the heels of OLT, its very likely that the metagame could shift drastically, and it's always fun to try and predict these in advance.

1: What is a Pokemon/set you think will see a rise in usage?
2: What is a Pokemon/set you think will see a fall in usage?
3: What do you think will be the best archetype by the end of the tournament?
Bonus: what do you think will be suspected after the tournament, if any?

1. I believe Taunt Samurott-Hisui will rise in usage since it can keep up hazards against Weezing-Galar, whereas Weezing-Galar typically Defogs freely against older sets.
2. I see Heatran trending down in usage next month. Heatran usage markedly went down in high ladder for August compared to July, and this is just not a mon I respect after it lost Toxic. Sure, it can use Stealth Rock to free up a moveslot on another mon that would prefer not running it, but Heatran is much less of a threat (FWIW, I don't consider it a threat at all) if it uses SR, and building with it isn't exactly easy outside of Rillaboom structures.
3. BO will be the best as usual.
Bonus: Nothing will be suspected after SCL ends. After Roaring Moon's ban, most players found that the meta markedly improved, resulting in survey scores dropping across the board regarding potentially suspect-worthy mons. I don't find this changing unless good players suddenly start optimizing their usage of a top-tier mon in a way we haven't seen in a while, which I'm leaning towards not happening.
 
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but NP Deo-S has felt like a fish where its either a god or does nothing from my exp using it (chalking this up more as a skill issue). Facing it is another story since you don't know what its running, so its pretty scary + Standard speed control options are not good into it. Using it feels a bit more fishy. Still, I do think Deo-S's versatility is a big point in its favor and will let it adapt to pressuring all sorts of teams with various techs, even on other sets besides NP.

NP DeoS is definitely a case of a set on a Mon that isn’t easy to pilot but has some of the highest rewards. A well piloted NP DeoS is one of the scariest things to face because of how much it mauls lots of defensive stuff and like you said, standard speed control tech isn’t useful against it. So a boosted DeoS is harder to rebound against and regain footing without having to make awkward plays at times.


1: What is a Pokemon/set you think will see a rise in usage?
2: What is a Pokemon/set you think will see a fall in usage?
3: What do you think will be the best archetype by the end of the tournament?
Bonus: what do you think will be suspected after the tournament, if any?

1. :Heatran: :Tornadus-Therian:
These are two rising mons that I expect to see more of as their roles have become more understood. TornT in particular having re established itself at high level play and become something players need to respect, between the potency of NP sets and the useful utility of its utility sets. I think we’ll also see more players experiment with the item choice. Heatran I’m expecting to default to Lava Plume for its general use at spreading status and being a spammable move. It being an effective rocker has a lot of merit vs teams that depend on Hatterene to keep them off which gives Heatran more utility, as well as it being good into non HJK Cinderace.

I also think we’ll see a lot more experimentation with Samurott-H sets, as the Mon has a lot of untapped potential still and people are moving past just using previously established standards like Boots, AV or Scarf.

2. :Araquanid: :Iron-Moth: :Dondozo:

Webs are ultimately fishy in this tier even at their best, due to their all or nothing nature reliant on Webs going up and staying up, as well as struggling with the BO teams running around. The usage of Cinderace, rising G-Weezing, and generally effective anti webs leads just diminishes their consistency further as without Webs, these teams struggle to do much of anything.

Iron Moth, while Ting-Lu usage is lower a bit for how much people are preparing for it, still struggles vs too much of the meta and has to rely on a coin flip with Fiery Dance in order to exert pressure comfortably. Teams have lots of natural checks and half checks too, and the rising Heatran usage only further hurts it.

Dondozo is very limited in the teams it works on and its passivity and weak nature unboosted just makes it an unattractive choice rn.

3. BO feels like a very reliable and consistent, comfortable playstyle with the most building flexibility right now, so I expect it to be the most successful overall. I do think certain Balance teams will do quite well also, but not quite as well as BO.

4. :Ogerpon-Wellspring:
The meta has managed to develop quite a bit better than i thought it would despite the presence of volatile pokemon like Kyurem and to some extent Dragonite, and so it’s pretty enjoyable. But one Pokemon remains and sticks out like a sore thumb to me, and that’s Wellspring. Its continually rising usage (pretty sure it sits at #2 on high ladder) and the way players have kept pushing the possibilities of this Mon’s builds, has made it a completely nightmare and a chore to build around. It’s not that it’s unwallable or near unwallable (it doesn’t help that this is the case), but that it’s far too good of a progress maker. There’s so many ways beyond just SD it can eat through teams, and its recent emphasis on longevity through use of moves like Synthesis or Horn Leech only make it harder to handle. I think it’s a blight that does more harm than good for the tier and I hope something can be done about it eventually.
 
Ok Faya I'll throw you a bone. I looked at the recent 1825 Usage stats for month-on-month differences for July and August to figure out pre and post OLT trends. TL;DR - major changes up were Glimmora, Galarian Slowking, and Kyurem with 5%+ differences in usage. Glowking's set didn't change much (basically Future Sight instead of Flamethrower), but Glimmora and Kyurem found some "new" sets. Here are the diffs below:

July Glimmora
:sv/Glimmora:
Glimmora @ Red Card
Ability: Toxic Debris
EVs: 248 HP / 132 Def / 128 SpD
Timid Nature
Tera type: Ghost
- Earth Power
- Mortal Spin
- Stealth Rock
- Power Gem
Sorry, What's up with this glimmora? The EVs along with Timid look wasteful? Is there any documentation about what goals is it hitting?
 
Using tera ice sandy shocks, I still think its a solid mon that can set hazards with offensive pressure and is an amazing user of tera ice, but the issue that it relies on tera ice a bit too much to deal with mons like landorus or gliscor (the former threatening to ohko it even with no attack investment) due to its lack of coverage or boosting and thus is a bit of a tera hog

I’ve been trying a set that is less of a hog on the team, potentially allowing another mon to utilise tera, however its mainly for match up fish, due to sandy shocks having limited options for moves.


:sandy shocks:
Sandy Shocks @ Grassy Seed / Electric Seed
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Water / Grass
EVs: 136 HP / 88 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Charge Beam
- Substitute
- Flash Cannon
- Earth Power

Tera water has been chosen as it turns two weaknesses into resistances, tera grass does so too and can be chosen if you wish to resist ground rather than having a simple neutrality.

The set is intended to be a somewhat bulky charge beam sweeper for terrain teams (grassy terrain is generally better for this niche set), its superior bulk and lack of a stealth rock weakness gives it an edge over fellow 101 speed electric type thunderus therian which has a lot more power and volt absorb. its been given enough hp evs to avoid having its substitute broken by alomomola’s flip turn. Flash cannon was chosen for neutral damage towards landorus and gliscor especially since it has a chance to lower special defense. The main reason it was given grassy seed over booster energy was so it could be somewhat bulky with less evs invested in speed.

Its worth noting that tera blast with terastal ice can be used if you have no problems using it as a tera hog on your terrain team, but thats not why I made it.
 
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1: What is a Pokemon/set you think will see a rise in usage?
2: What is a Pokemon/set you think will see a fall in usage?
3: What do you think will be the best archetype by the end of the tournament?
Bonus: what do you think will be suspected after the tournament, if any?
1: :sv/tornadus_therian: :sv/heatran: :sv/rillaboom:

These three are a given. Torn-T is incredibly versatile with Boots Taunt, NP, and AV. You can legit lead with Torn most of the time because it outspeeds a vast majority of the tier and guarantees progress with Knock/U-Turn. Heatran is a consistent rock setter that frees up team-building slots and synergizes scarily well with Wellspring. With Rillaboom, its basically cause of Terrain Offense regaining its footing in big 2025. I think people need to branch out of Tera Grass. SD LO Rilla with a defensive Tera or Tera Dark is stronk. Also Wellspring with Grassy Glide is funny (and broken).

:sv/zapdos: :sv/kyurem: :sv/cinderace:

These are some OU mons I found are being used more. With Torn usage at its peak and Gliscor being more uncommon, Zapdos is truly the best birb. It the best matchup into Wellspring compared to Molt. Offensive Roost Three Attacks recontextualizes Zapdos’ role while still packing defensive utility (Static is broken 1LDK is right on that). The third move can be Heat Wave to secure big dmg on Gholdengo/Gambit or any Tblast like Ice, Fairy, Fighting, etc. Kyurem takes advantage of alot of current meta trends, so it makes sense to see it a li’l more often. Huge fan of the AV set btw. Fast pivots are disgusting and Cinderace is arguably one of the best. Outside of Cinderace’s role at deterring hazards, it’s great at forcing awkward positions and enabling every wallbreaker under the sun.

2: :sv/araquanid:

Araquanid is projected to drop out of OU, but this will change if Duckular releases another Webs + Shitmon RMT.

3: SV OU likes to rotate through the Seasons. Spring saw Balance as the most popular, then during the Summer heat it became Offense, and now I believe Balance and Offense will mingle for the top spot. Personally all the major playstyles are on equal terms rn, which is a sign that the metagame is healing, but work needs to be done.

Bonus: Who should be suspected? Oh let me tell you.

:sv/ogerpon_wellspring:

Ok I’m not gonna go into a 4-minute rant or anything, but just know I loathe this thing’s presence. It feels unfair whenever I use it. Wellspring just gets 2 kills minimum by simply existing. Now we’re reaching a point where the Wellsprings are starting to run bulk. They’re starting to run Synthesis. What’s worse is that some have incorporated Synthesis onto Trailblaze + SD, sparking trauma from the Moon/G-Fire meta. Its only able to get away with this mickey mouse ass moveset because Ivy Cudgel is so broken it humbles resists (especially with Tera).

:sv/dragonite:

Dnite could be a candidate for a suspect. The most busted variant is DD Roost Tblast Fairy. Fairy Blast and EQ hits everything except Molt/Corv, which have their own issues in the current meta. With Roost you turn your midground checks like Tusk, opposing Dnites, and Zama into setup fodder. Its repeating a trend we’ve seen with Roaring Moon (maybe the real culprit is not Tera Blast but Fairy Blast specifically lmao). Banning it would be disastrous for BO. Dnite checks a bunch of things with Multiscale and losing E-Speed would be losing a valuable tool against offense.
 
When is action going to be taken against wellspring? In my opinion YOUR TAKING TOO LONG is something that can be said about this
(I know I included a Deltarune reference but this is serious. I'm kinda new to this)
 
When is action going to be taken against wellspring? In my opinion YOUR TAKING TOO LONG is something that can be said about this
(I know I included a Deltarune reference but this is serious. I'm kinda new to this)
that will happen when the ban side will provide good enough evidence that it is worthy of a suspect. There are a lot of offensive threats on the radar, and you also have to take in account stuff like SCL.
 
that will happen when the ban side will provide good enough evidence that it is worthy of a suspect. There are a lot of offensive threats on the radar, and you also have to take in account stuff like SCL.
  1. 120 base attack Stab 100 base power no type immunities stab no contact high crit rate 100% accurate with a free 1.2 boost on top cause why not?!?!
  2. Good speed tier (110 is crazy for a wallbraker with defensive utilities)
  3. She can use: swords dance to 2hko toxapex (practically Ohko everything), u-turn for pivoting, trailblaze to boost the good speed tier, encore to do whatever it wants to do with encore, spikes to make permanent progress with the best hazard, play rough to hit the dragon types that resist it for super effective, super power works with u-turn to surprise some pokemon AND knock off
  4. Great defensive utility, immune to water (which the best defensive counter to a pokemon being itself is never good) and completely different weaknesses in and out of tera is horrific for any pokemon that tries to target her. want to use lokix first imprasion? I'm now tera water and take neutral damage LOLOLQLOLOLOLLOLOLOL:blobuwu: I'm just a silly Girlboss Gaslighting people into thinking I'm balanced and Gatekeeping balance lol (IDK y I added the last part lol)
 
that will happen when the ban side will provide good enough evidence that it is worthy of a suspect. There are a lot of offensive threats on the radar, and you also have to take in account stuff like SCL.
we do have to take scl into account, but saying there are lots of offensive threats on the radar doesn't seem right to me. the only offensive threats i've seen receiving truly significant numbers of complaints right now are waterpon and dragonite. i wouldn't really consider anything else to be "on the radar" at the moment, at least not to the caliber that those two are. also, the "ban side", as you put it (it's a lot more nuanced than one side going "ban everything" and another side going "ban nothing"), has provided plenty of very solid evidence that waterpon's suspect-worthy. there have been several hundred posts made about the thing over the years* if you look. what kind of evidence would be "good enough" in your mind? because frankly, from the rest of your posts, i'm not sure that you'd consider any amount of evidence good enough to justify a suspect of anything. you seem to lean very heavily against bans in any scenario whatsoever

the fact of the matter is, waterpon's not the kind of mon that's just briefly an issue and goes away when the meta adapts. the complaints from knowledgeable players stretching back through radically different metas, all the way to near the start of dlc1, are proof of that. this is an insane trade machine at worst, 6-0 against balance at best, that can thrive in pretty much any meta that's thrown at her. that's why i think waterpon should be the next suspect target over dragonite. she's had a lot of time for the meta to adapt to her and it just hasn't, as opposed to dnite, which was always very threatening with a highly limited number of checks but didn't become a genuine issue until recently. the dnite train might end up running out of steam eventually, like those periods where darkrai and pult were briefly the big things on the radar. but waterpon? nah. get that shit outta here is what i say
 
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we do have to take scl into account, but saying there are lots of offensive threats on the radar doesn't seem right to me. the only offensive threats i've seen receiving truly significant numbers of complaints right now are waterpon and dragonite. i wouldn't really consider anything else to be "on the radar" at the moment, at least not to the caliber that those two are. also, the "ban side", as you put it (it's a lot more nuanced than one side going "ban everything" and another side going "ban nothing"), has provided plenty of very solid evidence that waterpon's suspect-worthy. there have been several hundred posts made about the thing over the years* if you look. what kind of evidence would be "good enough" in your mind? because frankly, from the rest of your posts, i'm not sure that you'd consider any amount of evidence good enough to justify a suspect of anything. you seem to lean very heavily against bans in any scenario whatsoever

the fact of the matter is, waterpon's not the kind of mon that's just briefly an issue and goes away when the meta adapts. the complaints from knowledgeable players stretching back through radically different metas, all the way to near the start of dlc1, are proof of that. this is an insane trade machine at worst, 6-0 against balance at best, that can thrive in pretty much any meta that's thrown at her. that's why i think waterpon should be the next suspect target over dragonite. she's had a lot of time for the meta to adapt to her and it just hasn't, as opposed to dnite, which was always very threatening with a highly limited number of checks but didn't become a genuine issue until recently. the dnite train might end up running out of steam eventually, like those periods where darkrai and pult were briefly the big things on the radar. but waterpon? nah. get that shit outta here is what i say
I'm one of those people who think that for this gen we should tier around offense, not balance.
Obviously keep balance teams viable, as it is right now, but personally I'm pretty happy with the way SV OU is right now and if you really want to take tiering action we can look towards other routes e.g. retest Volc/Gouging, some box legend, or suspect Ting-Lu (will elaborate if asked, but ill just say this: if this isn't broken, neither are Lugia and Giratina-A.) instead of banning other offensive threats that are still susceptible to trends and get adapted to.

It is pretty clear to me that balance go-tos are given the benefit of the doubt compared to offense tools and the only thing I can do is to respect the will of the others while presenting my pov on why that's not necessarily the best action. We're living in times where we could use shorter games, for reasons which are not necessarily related to SV OU, but competition from other formats and culture as a whole. This is why setup sweepers being seen as these big fat boogeymen isn't compatible with my statement above. I get swept all the time when I misplay, same with other players, but maybe we can find better setups to prevent this from happening in the first place.

I also find it that most of the time people who want a suspect will automatically vote for a ban without having the intention to switch their votes around. Same with your post towards Ogerpon-W, a good balance breaker. Because yes Ogerpon-W is great against balance teams and has a wide movepool. But who's to say it is ban worthy, when people can't agree on what its best fourth move is, and code it as "versatility"?

Even if we've had Ogerpon-W for quite a while, you can't just present those hundreds of pages as one big book, a collection of arguments that does not properly address pro and anti ban arguments. Because you'll get bias, misinformation, fearmongering, and many arguments that contradict each other with a bit of poking. The metagame will continue to adapt until it is fully solved. That might happen tomorrow, post-CG or in a hundred years. We don't have a game theory solver here, so the ban side doesn't make itself look good when complaining about pokemon a or b with such confidence, such "venom" competitively speaking.

Keeping the status quo remains the best way forward, at least in SV. It doesn't mean i will vote DNB for each and every suspect going forward.
 
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retest Volc/Gouging, some box legend, or suspect Ting-Lu (will elaborate if asked, but ill just say this: if this isn't broken, neither are Lugia and Giratina-A.) instead of banning other offensive threats that are still susceptible to trends and get adapted to.

Volc and gouging were decisively banned (gouging was literally like 90%+, extremely rare one sided vote) which makes it hard for me to take this seriously when you suggest freeing either, especially the latter. And as for Lugia and Giratina, they’re uber fat CM sweepers that handpick already limited counterplay via Tera and just set up and take way too much to bring down. They’re way above what Ting-Lu does which is honestly provide stability for teams its on against a host of threats in a tier teeming at the brim with them.


We're living in times where we could use shorter games, for reasons which are not necessarily related to SV OU, but competition from other formats and culture as a whole.

Sorry what. What does this even mean or have anything to do with competitive. What does “culture as a whole” even mean here.

As an aside, people multiple times have explained why defensive pokemon are harder to justify looking at action for compared to offensive threats. It’s not some “balance is given benefit of the doubt”, they’re just rarely broken.

And lastly, anything can theoretically be adapted to but not all adaptations are healthy for the game.
 
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