Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[Moyashi]

if there's something about Gen 9 that stands out it is pokemon surviving suspect tests that people keep complaining about. The pro-ban arguments have been really abrasive, since people create a quick first impression and build their arguments based on said impression. Changing the status quo is hard since it's a 60% threshold.

There are always a lot of good reasons to retest a pokemon. The philosophy of this metagame doesn't allow this to happen.

Only a small handful of Pokemon avoided bans via tests. Not sure what that has anything to do with anything.

What comments pro ban have been abrasive? I’m not gonna say there aren’t any since I’ve seen some myself, but you’re implying most of them tend to be which is just a bit silly.

But more to the point, there isn’t “always a lot of good reasons to retest a pokemon” and you haven’t really made compelling arguments for retesting anything. You’ve vaguely implied banned mons have lots of counterplay but then not listed what said counterplay is. Fact is, most everything (if not everything) in the current banlist that was banned this gen has multiple good reasons to be banned still.

 

[JackRG]

if there's something about Gen 9 that stands out it is pokemon surviving suspect tests that people keep complaining about. The pro-ban arguments have been really abrasive, since people create a quick first impression and build their arguments based on said impression. Changing the status quo is hard since it's a 60% threshold.

There are always a lot of good reasons to retest a pokemon. The philosophy of this metagame doesn't allow this to happen.

Its true gen 9 is different from anything we've had in the past, but I don't think that has anything to do with the community itself. It's more so the obscene shit that has released this gen. Retests tend to happen after the general consenus is that the metagame is balanced (SV OU is better than it used to be, but not there yet). Even then I feel the tests that would make the most sense would be mons like solgaleo that haven't gotten a fair shot yet.

 

[Welcome to mars]

Do people know still think gliscor is unhealthy for the tier, or has that died down completely?

Gliscor is still strong, but I don’t believe it is broken due to its swords dance sets relying mostly on taking multiple hits to sweep (which isn’t impossible, but also is not entirely easy) , its also not as dominant in ladder or tours as it was a few months ago, where it was considered for tiering action by the council. This is due to shifts in the meta such as the rise of galarian weezing with neutralising gas to disable poison heal or wellspring gaining even more usage, which has resulted in sentiments of it being broken dying down. Its still considered a good pokemon but the meta is not entirely as favourable to it rn.

 

[Avira]

Its true gen 9 is different from anything we've had in the past, but I don't think that has anything to do with the community itself. It's more so the obscene shit that has released this gen. Retests tend to happen after the general consenus is that the metagame is balanced (SV OU is better than it used to be, but not there yet). Even then I feel the tests that would make the most sense would be mons like solgaleo that haven't gotten a fair shot yet.

Yeah, I'm Tapu Bulu is huffing big copium in saying that the pro-ban side is abrasive when it was mostly CTC on the anti-ban side who was getting banned for toxicity.

He also never names good counterplay to said mons he believes aren't broken, merely saying that there is, expecting people to take his word at face value.

Nothing that has already been banned this generation makes sense for a retest as you say, and Solgaleo, which likely wouldn't even be among the Top 3 best mons in SV OU if it were dropped, is probably the mon most deserving of a test.

To end this talk about Ubers, I was not surprised to see Tornadus-Therian usage rise in August compared to July. It's a very good progress maker, and I'm glad people have caught on to how good it is. I expect it and Rillaboom to rise to OU next month. Heatran is a 50/50, but I'm guessing it won't rise.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

if there's something about Gen 9 that stands out it is pokemon surviving suspect tests that people keep complaining about.

all right, let's fact-check this by breaking down each of the 17 suspects this generation has had thus far:

1. tera survived its suspect and has received complaints (many valid, but many others not) throughout the entire gen, so i could count this one in your favor even though it's not exactly a pokemon
2. chien-pao was banned, though it did take way longer than it probably should've
3. walking wake survived its suspect but hasn't been complained about since... well, pretty much since the suspect. nobody considers walking wake broken anymore, and not many people even consider it to be particularly good—it's barely hanging on to its position in the tier
4. zama did survive its suspect and was complained about for a good long while. not sure whether to count this as a point in favor of your claim or not, since the complaints have pretty much completely died down and even when people complained about zama the general consensus was that it's a healthy presence
5. fuck this thing. this is definitely the most prominent example of what you're talking about
6. bloodmoon got absolutely slaughtered in its suspect, and for good reason
7. this guy didn't survive either of its suspects
8. the first gliscor suspect ended in a ban, but for the rest of dlc1 we had people complaining that it shouldn't have, which is the exact opposite phenomenon of what you're claiming
9. kyurem survived its suspect and received enough complaints to hold another suspect, but after the second suspect the complaints eventually fizzled out
10. archaludon was banned. not really much else to say about this one
11. now this is a tricky one because gouging fire did survive an absolutely disastrous first suspect but got overwhelmingly banned on the second go-around. the fact that it survived and was complained about enough to get a second suspect supports your claim, but the actual success of the second suspect, by a massive margin, could be seen as a point against it
12. volcarona didn't survive its suspect and there have been a handful of complaints about its ban, which again is the exact opposite of the claim
13. already covered this one
14. despite the bullshit that happened after the second suspect, the tier has managed to adapt to kyurem pretty handily and nobody is really complaining about it anymore
15. same here, nobody's complaining about gliscor anymore. the complaints stopped shortly after the suspect
16. technically this didn't result in a status quo change, but no one complained about it
17. imagine being suspected twice and banned both times. lmao what a loser

so there have been some cases of failed suspect targets receiving complaints immediately after the suspects, but the only things that are still being complained about after surviving are tera and kingambit. everything else was either banned afterwards or isn't being seriously complained about anymore (and in kyurem's case, for a brief period of time, both)

i'm also not entirely sure what this claim has to do with the other points you're making. like, is it a good thing that mons are surviving their suspects and a bad thing that they're being complained about, or is it the other way around? how does this tie into "the philosophy of this metagame"?

The pro-ban arguments have been really abrasive, since people create a quick first impression and build their arguments based on said impression.

i don't follow. how does people making decisions on what is or isn't broken quickly lead to "abrasive" arguments? why would this only apply to one side? what about the substantial amount of dnb posts that are also toxic? what about the posts that are only abrasive because they're responding to a post using arguments that go against the discussion rules? why is this a worse problem than people making dnb arguments that violate this rule and go unpunished:

Changing the status quo is hard since it's a 60% threshold.

i mean we've pulled it off 8.5 out of 17 times (the .5 is kyurem 2 because that technically did result in a ban for a bit). that's a 50% success rate at changing the status quo, so i wouldn't necessarily call it hard

There are always a lot of good reasons to retest a pokemon. The philosophy of this metagame doesn't allow this to happen.

can you name some of these reasons? you can't just say "there are lots of reasons for this" and then not provide any of them

 

[Seraphyde]

I am still complaining about Gliscor. People didn't stop complaining about Gliscor because it became less problematic, people stopped complaining about it because they just see no use after it survived its suspecting. If people thought that Gliscor could get suspected again, they would complain more vocally in order to get it in motion just like people have been trying to get Tera Blast suspected through endless (justified) complaining. The percentage of Gliscor haters has remained largely stable, despite what Big Stall would like you to believe.

 

[Avira]

Gliscor actually had the highest score (some people misremembered Kyurem as having the highest score) from the qualified demographic on the last OU tiering survey, so there are definitely people who still want tiering action on Gliscor. Finchinator has noted though that there's a lack of urgency from good players to test anything, which is why the proposed tiering survey that was supposed to happen months back keeps getting pushed further back due to there being no clear consensus pick for tiering action from good players. It would not surprise me if the next OU survey is still months away due to the playerbase finding the mons remaining in SV OU much less problematic than mons that have been banned in the past.

 

[UltraSword]

Gliscor actually had the highest score (some people misremembered Kyurem as having the highest score) from the qualified demographic on the last OU tiering survey, so there are definitely people who still want tiering action on Gliscor. Finchinator has noted though that there's a lack of urgency from good players to test anything, which is why the proposed tiering survey that was supposed to happen months back keeps getting pushed further back due to there being no clear consensus pick for tiering action from good players. It would not surprise me if the next OU survey is still months away due to the playerbase finding the mons remaining in SV OU much less problematic than mons that have been banned in the past.

On one hand you are right. This definitely feels like the meta with the least complaints from the player base in perhaps the entirety of gen 9. On the other hand, I have seen some really vocal complaints about Wogerpon over the last few weeks. It is definitely a bit of a toss-up when this survey will happen but for once I think it will be later rather than sooner.

 

[I'm Tapu Bulu]

Yeah, I'm Tapu Bulu is huffing big copium in saying that the pro-ban side is abrasive when it was mostly CTC on the anti-ban side who was getting banned for toxicity.

He also never names good counterplay to said mons he believes aren't broken, merely saying that there is, expecting people to take his word at face value.

Nothing that has already been banned this generation makes sense for a retest as you say, and Solgaleo, which likely wouldn't even be among the Top 3 best mons in SV OU if it were dropped, is probably the mon most deserving of a test.

To end this talk about Ubers, I was not surprised to see Tornadus-Therian usage rise in August compared to July. It's a very good progress maker, and I'm glad people have caught on to how good it is. I expect it and Rillaboom to rise to OU next month. Heatran is a 50/50, but I'm guessing it won't rise.

...I will not give any names but the ban arguments from certain users on Kyurem and Gliscor, as well as Gouging Fire and previous DLC1 and Home suspects, were just as abrasive and filled with disinformation, fearmongering, bad logic, opinions argued as the holy truth, and ad hominem attacks. I've been told talking about banned mons is not allowed here, but I'd be happy to argue why they aren't broken, particularly Volcarona. Personally i'm kinda indifferent on Gouging and Moon though I'd prefer to see them unbanned, but I'm confident the Volcarona thing was orchestrated. So if you're interested, you can DM me and I would present to you the reasons why Volc ought to be retested and its positive qualities. I agree that Solgaleo itself also deserves a retest.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

this post highlights a possible ideological difference between ban and DNB voters. The ban side often says stuff like "when will you realize x is broken"... the DNB side aims to preserve the status quo since unban tests are so rare on the forums especially in OU

Once a pokemon is banned, it is gone forever, with rare exceptions. The ban side needs to understand this before going forward.

well what is the framework people use to determine what is banned and what isn't? That can determine their ideologies in a way right
I know there are mons that I feel are horrendous for building (the entire S tier) and ones that i think could come down from uber

 

[I'm Tapu Bulu]

well what is the framework people use to determine what is banned and what isn't? That can determine their ideologies in a way right
I know there are mons that I feel are horrendous for building (the entire S tier) and ones that i think could come down from uber

Yo Omari

From my perspective its usually mons that have the ability to boost their stats (particularly speed) + use defensive tera + possibly Tera Blast e.g Dragonite. Which is already becoming a hot topic just like former suspectees Volcarona and GFire. This is the most common framework. In low tiers Oricorio-F (voted DNB) and now Bellossom are hot topics, which use a similar pattern.

Everyone has their own ideology on what to ban and what not, but for the ones mentioned above i feel the pro-ban sentiment is much more vocal for reasons i would not necessarily consider justified.

 

[pika pal]

...I will not give any names but the ban arguments from certain users on Kyurem and Gliscor, as well as Gouging Fire and previous DLC1 and Home suspects, were just as abrasive and filled with disinformation, fearmongering, bad logic, opinions argued as the holy truth, and ad hominem attacks. I've been told talking about banned mons is not allowed here, but I'd be happy to argue why they aren't broken, particularly Volcarona. Personally i'm kinda indifferent on Gouging and Moon though I'd prefer to see them unbanned, but I'm confident the Volcarona thing was orchestrated. So if you're interested, you can DM me and I would present to you the reasons why Volc ought to be retested and its positive qualities. I agree that Solgaleo itself also deserves a retest.

You say you won't give names but DB did (CTC on the Gouging Fire Suspects), so naming specific examples that support your perspective that toxic comments were made is already on the table if you had any to list.

Discussing banned mons is typically frowned upon because this thread is to discuss the Metagame, which by virtue of the ban they do not factor into save for discussing trends in the immediate weeks following their removal. If you're going to make such statements as "the Volcarona thing was orchestrated" (which is an EXTREMELY loaded word so you need to be prepared to elaborate or clarify) and several posts that pertain to the tier player base's attitude/philosophy toward suspects and bans this Gen, you need to substantiate your points rather than share the premise, and thisis assuming this is even something that can be talked here instead of in an appropriate Policy Review thread (that's Admin/Mod call more than mine).

 

[CooolTrainer]

I see Grasspon being used on bootspam hazard stacking balances, since unlike Waterpon, it can hold boots

An example team I saw would be


However waterpon is usually used on faster paced teams where you won’t feel her hazard weakness as much
So the niche each of them fill are not the same.
Maybe Choice Band Grasspon could rise, but that’s it,

I agree that Ogerpon has a niche on teams like this but it’s hard for me to go with it as a knocker/breaker over since you have to add yet another ice weakness for Kyurem to feast on.

 

[I'm Tapu Bulu]

You say you won't give names but DB did (CTC on the Gouging Fire Suspects), so naming specific examples that support your perspective that toxic comments were made is already on the table if you had any to list.

Discussing banned mons is typically frowned upon because this thread is to discuss the Metagame, which by virtue of the ban they do not factor into save for discussing trends in the immediate weeks following their removal. If you're going to make such statements as "the Volcarona thing was orchestrated" (which is an EXTREMELY loaded word so you need to be prepared to elaborate or clarify) and several posts that pertain to the tier player base's attitude/philosophy toward suspects and bans this Gen, you need to substantiate your points rather than share the premise, and thisis assuming this is even something that can be talked here instead of in an appropriate Policy Review thread (that's Admin/Mod call more than mine).

Shaymin Sky's arguments were pretty egregious in my opinion. Dude was acting like he was holding the solution (of course, ban lots of mons via council votes, which is what i would call an anti-democratic, pro-ZapKingLu position) so yeah CTC's arguments can't be discussed standalone imo

 

[FayaWizard]

Ok, this conversation has long outlived any relevance or usefulness. Agree or disagree with suspect verdicts, that’s entirely up to you, but this thread has been off-topic for more than a page now and clearly shows no sign of stopping. Any further posts about this will be deleted.

To give a new topic of discussion, SCL is soon to start, and as with any major tournament, we will likely see new meta shifts, with Pokemon and sets rising and falling. Especially coming off the heels of OLT, its very likely that the metagame could shift drastically, and it's always fun to try and predict these in advance.

1: What is a Pokemon/set you think will see a rise in usage?
2: What is a Pokemon/set you think will see a fall in usage?
3: What do you think will be the best archetype by the end of the tournament?
Bonus: what do you think will be suspected after the tournament, if any?

 

[PastaMechKaku]

Ok, this conversation has long outlived any relevance or usefulness. Agree or disagree with suspect verdicts, that’s entirely up to you, but this thread has been off-topic for more than a page now and clearly shows no sign of stopping. Any further posts about this will be deleted.

To give a new topic of discussion, SCL is soon to start, and as with any major tournament, we will likely see new meta shifts, with Pokemon and sets rising and falling. Especially coming off the heels of OLT, its very likely that the metagame could shift drastically, and it's always fun to try and predict these in advance.

1: What is a Pokemon/set you think will see a rise in usage?
2: What is a Pokemon/set you think will see a fall in usage?
3: What do you think will be the best archetype by the end of the tournament?
Bonus: what do you think will be suspected after the tournament, if any?

I think Heatran has a chance to rise in usage as players are starting to embrace Lava Plume as it's main source of damage instead of malding over Magma storm misses while still being able to troll fat teams with taunt. Granted, its usage could also go south if it's main roadblocks Alo and Kyruem see more play


Taunt H-Samurott might also be on the rise given how it can stop G-Weezing from defoging/wisping despite not being able to hit it very hard (also helps that G-Weezing prefers to run Sludge bomb or Flamethrower for damage) as well as having applications vs other switch-ins like Corv.

Not sure about what's going to fall off that isn't already alling atm.

As for team structures, Bulky Offense is probably going to see the most play given how it has the perfect mixture of power plays and consistency.

 

[toshimelonhead]

Ok Faya I'll throw you a bone. I looked at the recent 1825 Usage stats for month-on-month differences for July and August to figure out pre and post OLT trends. TL;DR - major changes up were Glimmora, Galarian Slowking, and Kyurem with 5%+ differences in usage. Glowking's set didn't change much (basically Future Sight instead of Flamethrower), but Glimmora and Kyurem found some "new" sets. Here are the diffs below:

July Glimmora

Glimmora @ Red Card
Ability: Toxic Debris
EVs: 248 HP / 132 Def / 128 SpD
Timid Nature
Tera type: Ghost
- Earth Power
- Mortal Spin
- Stealth Rock
- Power Gem

August Glimmora

Glimmora @ Power Herb
Ability: Toxic Debris
EVs: 4 HP / 8 Def / 248 SpA / 248 Spe
Modest Nature
Tera type: Ghost
- Earth Power
- Mortal Spin
- Stealth Rock
- Meteor Beam

The change here is the Power Herb to boost Meteor Beam turn 1 for a more offensive approach turn 1. Since Glimmora isn't that bulky by OU standards, might as well take a turn to lure in Landorus-Therian and other early game hazard setters.

July Kyurem

Kyurem @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Freeze Dry
- Earth Power
- Icicle Spear
- Ice Beam / Scale Shot

August Kyurem

Kyurem @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 56 HP / 200 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Freeze-Dry
- Earth Power
- Substitute
- Ice Beam / Protect

Kyurem can run as many as 10-15 viable sets in SV OU. The switch to a Sub pressure set to me is a rotation back to the sets that warranted the suspect test to begin with. I'll table the necessity of a third suspect test for now for the thread's sanity, but the Sub sets are another equally oppressive set alongside the Dragon Dance ones. My personal favorite Kyurem set is still its DD Tera Fire set with mixed EVs I posted a while ago, but Kyurem has so many cracked sets that I don't consider one better than the other.

I'm also watching Ceruledge only because its Weak Armour SD Bitter Blade set has farmed me more than I want to admit, but I do think that's more of a playstyle adjustment versus a teambuilding adjustment. Have to be careful with physical attacks and it becomes more manageable.

OLT is a unique beast and is a nice crucible to build the sets that end up cementing themselves as tournament staples. Watch Glimmora and Kyurem in SCL. My guess is no Suspect tests until 2026.

 

[mcribs]

Ok, this conversation has long outlived any relevance or usefulness. Agree or disagree with suspect verdicts, that’s entirely up to you, but this thread has been off-topic for more than a page now and clearly shows no sign of stopping. Any further posts about this will be deleted.

To give a new topic of discussion, SCL is soon to start, and as with any major tournament, we will likely see new meta shifts, with Pokemon and sets rising and falling. Especially coming off the heels of OLT, its very likely that the metagame could shift drastically, and it's always fun to try and predict these in advance.

1: What is a Pokemon/set you think will see a rise in usage?
2: What is a Pokemon/set you think will see a fall in usage?
3: What do you think will be the best archetype by the end of the tournament?
Bonus: what do you think will be suspected after the tournament, if any?

1. Tornt and heatran will def see a rise as a way to punish bulky team structures and provide their own defensive utility. Enam i feel will also rise as it can very easily muscle through mons like pecha and corv while providing a solid defensive profile with its typing and healing wish
2. Im seeing stuff like moth are def gonna take a even bigger hit with how poorly it does against bulky archetypes especially with ting lu. Theres far less reason to keep it on a team these days. but thats a given tbh. Smth that i will guess that could fall off is prob webs and specifically araq. Its heavily overprepped for atm and tbh ribombee has more going for it
3. BO and balance will def reign supreme with HO and offense on the back burner for now. Ho especially is a bit clunky to use given the amount of anti ho mons are so common even if they may be found on ho as well(gambit ting dnite zama)
bonus. If i were to guess i'd say either wellspring or dnite atm. Given that tb isnt going anywhere, and theres been a loud minority to get rid of these guys, theres prob gonna be at least one of these goobers on the chopping block

 

[JackRG]

Ok, this conversation has long outlived any relevance or usefulness. Agree or disagree with suspect verdicts, that’s entirely up to you, but this thread has been off-topic for more than a page now and clearly shows no sign of stopping. Any further posts about this will be deleted.

To give a new topic of discussion, SCL is soon to start, and as with any major tournament, we will likely see new meta shifts, with Pokemon and sets rising and falling. Especially coming off the heels of OLT, its very likely that the metagame could shift drastically, and it's always fun to try and predict these in advance.

1: What is a Pokemon/set you think will see a rise in usage?
2: What is a Pokemon/set you think will see a fall in usage?
3: What do you think will be the best archetype by the end of the tournament?
Bonus: what do you think will be suspected after the tournament, if any?

1. for sure. It's fallen off a bit recently but I think it will rise back up as people continue to experiment with sets like taunt and SD to more reliably keep hazards up aganist . I feel like every time this mon "falls off" it always comes back and its easy to see why.

2. Not really sure, maybe ? It's still good but recent metagame trends have been unfavorable to it for sure.

3. Bulky Offense for sure. It's been consistently one of, if not the best archetype throughout the generation and recent shifts have only seemed to favor it.

4. I don't think will be suspected, if people don't find tera blast problematic enough I don't see them finding too much of an issue either, given how much the two are linked. I think has a high chance of getting suspected since it's by far the most controversial pokemon that hasn't been suspected yet, and recently it's begun to experiment with new options like taunt and synthesis that will likely continue to see usage throughout SCL, making it even harder to deal with.

 

[olamomalo]

Confused by the moderation choices here...didnt you just prompt for what could be suspected?? Does that not include suspects back to the tier? lol

Anyway...to repeat the other stuff I mentioned, now in an abbreviated form bc I'm not wasting my time typing things for a forum where it just gets deleted:

I think:

• much more fat will be present. will get a lot of ire
• Fast nasty plot fat-breakers will be used, like
• Sun and TR will be counter trend; hazard-based/booster-based HOs will stink
• Choice item breakers will be good, with pivot teams being strong to get them in
• If ogerpon gets suspected, then and/or will be close to follow. AV mola is going to be the dominant mola set at high elo

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

Ok, this conversation has long outlived any relevance or usefulness. Agree or disagree with suspect verdicts, that’s entirely up to you, but this thread has been off-topic for more than a page now and clearly shows no sign of stopping. Any further posts about this will be deleted.

To give a new topic of discussion, SCL is soon to start, and as with any major tournament, we will likely see new meta shifts, with Pokemon and sets rising and falling. Especially coming off the heels of OLT, its very likely that the metagame could shift drastically, and it's always fun to try and predict these in advance.

1: What is a Pokemon/set you think will see a rise in usage?
2: What is a Pokemon/set you think will see a fall in usage?
3: What do you think will be the best archetype by the end of the tournament?
Bonus: what do you think will be suspected after the tournament, if any?

going by the trends in the tournaments here's some genuine takes.

I think Fezandipiti will rise pretty wildly giving the later usage in olt and people talking about in the ethos. Previously really just i used it and people made fun of it as a meme, however in OLT and in recent ladder usage I am seeing an uptick. Ill even share my set for the team that got #1
Fezandipiti @ Leftovers
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Moonblast
- Sludge Bomb
- Tera Blast

but others run physical, some like even SD.

Also, i predict and notice that ursarang's evolution (the name escapes me the giant normal/ground bear) will continue to rise. it's genuinely one of the best mons in ou and i see how people are making it work. personally I think trick room is an extremely lazy route to go with it.
now. sadly, as this is a competitive game less fun shit will be run more, specifically alomomola, and Ting lu, and galarian slowking.


2: What is a Pokemon/set you think will see a fall in usage?
greninja, dondozo, toxapex, and meteor beam poison ground

3. no opinion.

bonus: kyu most likely, possibly darkrai.

ghold should have been gone but i dont see that happening

 

[toshimelonhead]

Fezandipiti definitely feels like fringe OU potential with the right set. The set above is a nice balance breaker. I have experimented with Weakness Policy double dancing sets that I couldn't quite get to work, but could in theory. In the worst case scenario, Moonblast / Heat Wave / Roost / U-turn on Fezandipiti handles Dragapult, Zamazenta, and Kyurem fairly well.


F.E.S. (Fezandipiti) @ Shuca Berry / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 16 HP / 252 SpA / 240 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Agility
- Moonblast
- Heat Wave


Fezandipiti @ Shuca Berry / Heavy-Duty Boots
Level: 100
Modest Nature
Tera Type: Fire / Water
Ability: Toxic Chain
EVs: 248 HP / 208 SpA / 52 SpD
- Heat Wave
- U-turn
- Roost
- Moonblast

EV spread here lives Make it Rain from Gholdengo and 2HKOs back with Heat Wave. Can adjust with more bulk (124 SpA / 136 SpD) to 2HKO Kyurem. The Tera type I'm not as sure on.

As for Ursaluna, Trick Room might be "lazy", but it's extremely effective in getting it in with a chance to wreck things for three turns (and Dynamax meta veterans know the power of having three turns to sweep.) I still prefer the SD Guts set, but I have seen Bulletproof Resttalk sets in RMTs that were really well designed.

 

[Whaloob]

1: What is a Pokemon/set you think will see a rise in usage?

Zapdos. It takes hits well from Torn-T—even +2 LO Heat Wave isn’t oneshotting, and Zapdos threatens to cripple it for clicking Knock or Uturn while doing good damage with Volt Switch. Ting-Lu, while still extremely common, has seen declining usage because builds are dedicating more resources to breaking through it and because robust hazard removal to enable Waterpon’s longevity has been an increasingly common aspect of recent builds. That same hazard removal can be leveraged by Zapdos to run Helmet, Lefties, or AV, or just to allow it to absorb Knock Off while threatening to cripple enemies (I would also suggest giving Yache Berry a try—being able to cripple or kill Darkrai, Weavile, Kyurem, and boosted Tusk without using tera can be extremely valuable and it allows you to tech tera Dragon or Grass for SD Woger while still having ice insurance, or Water while having freeze-dry insurance). That same hazard removal ALSO tends to rely heavily on Great Tusk, which Zapdos counters while also really appreciating ground types being removed; while some teams will stack up on ground types due to…multiple of them being really fucking good mons, that can be exploited elsewhere on the team with other rising stars like Rillaboom or well-established threats like Kyurem, Darkrai, Tusk, Woger, Primarina, and Hamurott. I could see Heat Wave being teched more often to deal with Treads seeing as its presence in the hazard metagame has grown lately, maybe even the occasional Weather Ball with Glowking to exploit Gliscor.

2: What is a Pokemon/set you think will see a fall in usage?

Honestly, Dragapult. It’s still Pult, it’ll stay good, don’t get me wrong. But I expect it to see less usage for a few reasons. The current meta has a bunch of checks to it baked in like Kingambit and Ting Lu. Some of the rising stars and many established threats (Heatran, Tyranitar, Dragonite, Raging Bolt, Iron Treads) are good at taking a hit and firing back hard while the biggest recent winner in Torn-T will do the above while healing off chip with regen. Its boots set runs into a lot more Gholds, AV Hatts, and Ceruledges than it would like, all of which don’t care about wisp, can take on unboosted hex, and easily take or even exploit dragon coverage and uturn; these 3 make frequent appearances on veil, an archetype that boots Pult is supposed to do well into thanks to infiltrator. Defensively, while it provides speed control, spinblocking, and a short-term check to Zamazenta and Waterpon, and while it is adept at generating momentum thanks to uturn and status, it is more liable than ever to get overwhelmed by the threats it is meant to check. As the meta moves towards fatter structures with more “trade merchants” and just generally sturdier offense, Pult can find itself unable to stay healthy for long enough to pull it’s weight. As a spinblocker, it faces stiff competition from Gholdengo, Pecharunt, and Sinistcha, all of which are better at spinblocking itself (not that I am saying Pech or Sini are better than Pult overall, though I do think Sini is underrated, but that’s for another day); spinblocking is also itself a bit worse than it used to be since more teams are opting towards other forms of hazard control like Hatt and Gweezing. Specs is a bit of a liability against Torn-T teams where it can be scouted multiple times without yielding much progress; these structures tend to include mons like Ting Lu, Gweezing, and Heatran which can take advantage of some or all of specs Pult’s coverage options. Band hogs tera while struggling with Gambit and to a lesser extent Gweezing. Again, it’s still a great mon with great role compression, and it can be supported appropriately to handle longer games or to alleviate its defensive responsibilities, but it gets blanked a lot for something as high-ranked as it is and faces down a more hostile meta than usual right now.

3: What do you think will be the best archetype by the end of the tournament?

BO/Balance still. Would love to be contrarian if for no other reason than it making for interesting discussion, but I don’t see any reason for the meta to deviate from these archetypes atm. I could see heightened usage of sun, TR, and paraspam, and we all know veil’s been popping up a lot lately, but I can’t see any of these becoming THE dominant archetype.

Bonus: what do you think will be suspected after the tournament, if any?

Waterpon would be first up, both in the sense that I see it as the top priority and in that I can see it garnering sufficient support. I don’t think anything except maybe Gholdengo has greater influence on the metagame, it is the best breaker in the tier bar none whose main defensive contributions are to invalidate almost a whole type’s worth of offensive threats and to kind of switch into Tusk and Treads. Speaking of which, its ability to come in on Tusk and Treads is itself a contribution to the hazard metagame by allowing it to 1) limit their usable turns, 2) keep them out, and 3) flat out exploit the use of spin. This, alongside it using spikes effectively (again, without letting in spinners) is a big part of bolstering its own effectiveness on hazard stack teams that can’t slot in robust hazard removal—it may not appreciate opposing hazards, and much of the robust hazard removal we see IS as a method of enabling Waterpon, but it still routes quite well in games where hazards are a dominant force (please please consider this point next time you’re tempted to say “Waterpon is countered by hazards”).

And no, Mola does not become broken if Waterpon is banned, ffs.

 

[Magcargo]

Confused by the moderation choices here...didnt you just prompt for what could be suspected?? Does that not include suspects back to the tier? lol

Anyway...to repeat the other stuff I mentioned, now in an abbreviated form bc I'm not wasting my time typing things for a forum where it just gets deleted:

I think:

• much more fat will be present. will get a lot of ire
• Fast nasty plot fat-breakers will be used, like
• Sun and TR will be counter trend; hazard-based/booster-based HOs will stink
• Choice item breakers will be good, with pivot teams being strong to get them in
• If ogerpon gets suspected, then and/or will be close to follow. AV mola is going to be the dominant mola set at high elo

I am curious if the NP breaker trend is just a fad or something that's gonna stick around. NP Rai is pretty great (always has been) and consistent, I agree, but NP Deo-S has felt like a fish where its either a god or does nothing from my exp using it (chalking this up more as a skill issue). Facing it is another story since you don't know what its running, so its pretty scary + Standard speed control options are not good into it. Using it feels a bit more fishy. Still, I do think Deo-S's versatility is a big point in its favor and will let it adapt to pressuring all sorts of teams with various techs, even on other sets besides NP.

Torn-T I think is kind of OK, but its mostly because of those Knock / Turn Sets. I haven't found the NP sets to be too scary yet - feels like it gets cheesed out easily between the bad accuracy of its moves + its speed being a bit slower than some key benchmarks like Darkrai, Dragapult, Weavile, etc.

Speaking of Weavile, I'm not sure why its considered "worse" now than it was before? Knock Off users with Ice moves feel impossible to switch to and I'd say its in the top of that crowd, with other mons w/ this combo like Deo-S, Darkrai, Meow, and a few others not being too far behind. I feel the notion that this mon fell off to be wrong and I think players will remember that this mon is pretty crazy. Same applies to other mons like Pult. Still consider these two some of the scariest mons in the tier.

For other mons rising up, I'd say the "alternative rockers" like Heatran will continue rising up. I think Pokemon like Heatran providing Rocks utility helps a lot in letting other Pokemon like Great Tusk, Garganacl, and Clefable run actually good sets instead of being delegated to Rocks utility. Not that these Pokemon are bad rockers neccisarily, but the issue is that they sacrifice a lot to run Rocks instead of other sets which I consider far better. I've been using Empoleon lately, and while it is kind of shit compared to Heatran, running Rocks on it has been nice to open up the other members on my team. I also think offensive, fast Spikers like Deo-S, Meow, etc. will also rise up, but that's kinda been a prediction I've had for a while so maybe its cheating a bit lol.

If we had suspects, I'm guessing either Dragonite, Gambit, or Wellspring would get tested. Kyurem and Darkrai are also candidates. Personally don't want any of them banned though, espicially Gambit.

 

[Anchor9]

Hi everyone. It’s been a bit since I’ve actually posted here. SV OU Trio Tour II is coming to an end I think I ought to highlight some interesting sets like I did last year.

Round 1:

The tour starts off and here is a game between goldmason and Akeras. Round 1 is the best round for fun random stuff.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2410334955

Set

Dudunsparce @ ?
Ability: Rattled
Tera Type: ?
EVs: ?
Nature: ?
- Glare
- Stealth Rock
- Boomburst
- Flamethrower

Here Dudunsparce is brought as a Stealth Rock lead. Interesting choice. It seems Dudunsparce has quite some unique traits. It has Glare, which can mess up potential removers such as Great Tusk and Corviknight. Rattled punishes U-turn users, providing a quicker Glare. Boomburst is pretty neat with its decent attack and Flamethrower provides additional coverage. Dudunsparce is able to get Stealth Rocks up, and cripple both Tinkaton and Corviknight.

(Round 2 Nat vs. B1Kharma https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2411005996-wqjaakjgpjgg2xsew0gj9jvetfoxpd2pw
Nat also brought the same team, and Dudunsparce is able to do its job again and get rocks up. )

Round 3:

We have Saaaaakill vs. Nakoruru_XD in a series already decided, so the funny stuff can be brought. And what Saaaaakill brought was indeed crazy.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2417217156-02n8va7s975k4nqoic58g0cyrvn6thppw

I’m not going to go over the Bellibolt (should be Ampharos smh) as it’s been used a good deal before. Instead, I want to go over this wild Talonflame set.

Set
Talonflame @ Choice Specs
Ability: Gale Wings
Tera Type: Probably Flying
EVs: Probably 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
- Hurricane
- ?
- ?
- ?

Alright, this set is wacky indeed. This set seems to attempt to fully take advantage of Gale Wings in an extremely high risk Rain team. You have some absurd priority amped up with Specs. Obviously this set needs Rocks off at all times. Saaaaakill manages to use Treads to remove the problematic hazard and Talonflame just tears through the team once Tinkaton is removed.

Round 4:
Pinecoishot has a pivotal matchup vs. Mister McLovin. And the mon brought is Volneat with its literal Random Battle moveset. And on top of that it actually does stuff.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2423495064-lkmbi4t0wqsm730pdqwgkg7xxnbfk48pw

Set

Volbeat @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: ?
EVs: ?
Nature: ?
- U-turn
- Thunder Wave
- Roost
- Probably Encore

This is literally the Random Battle moveset, and somehow it works just as well. Volbeat quickly gets into the action and forces Kyurem out with the threat of Encore. It proceeds to chip Ting-Lu down and consistently switches into Ting-Lu and Great Tusk. Encore is overpowered in this tier, and Bug is actually a nice defensive type in a tier that is heavy with Ground coverage (That’s why there’s so much Tera Bug Ceruledge running around).

Semifinals:

This one isn’t as wild as the others and is probably pretty standard, but I thought there was a cool set with leng loi vs. Xuwu. Here we have a stallbreaker Enamorus-T loading into stall.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-866871

Enamorus-T @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Overcoat
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: ?
Nature: Probably Modest
- Calm Mind
- Taunt
- Draining Kiss
- Earth Power

Covert Cloak is really cool, as this means Enamorus can beat Garg one on one. Taunt is the anti stall tool. Here we see Enamorus just brute force its way pass Blissey and block Toxapex from using Toxic with Taunt.

Hope y’all enjoyed!