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Rest in peace tentacruel, Hypno and Lapras coming back as well as Wrap being banned not to mention Slowbro dropping was absolutely catastrophic for our former number 1 mon. Swords Dance Hyper Beam Surf/Hydro Pump and like Ice Beam just won't hit the same. It's so sad to see a legend fall off like this.
Posting mid tour!?
She's lost her mind surely. But no I truly think this is just too fun of a post to not make now that ive thought of it.
Like with most rby tiers it goes without saying that Leads are, very possibly the most important part of a game. In this post I plan to discuss them in parts as I feel these pokemon have put themselves into factions in a way.
Faction one, which i find to be widely centralizing. Potentially even moreso than in OU but definitely less so than NU.
Is SLEEPERS
To break these into even more parts
() hypno.
() common and strong sleepers.
(:) the other guys.
Why does hypno get his own section?
Well because like in everything else hypno is leads above his competition in this role.
A big part of why mons like haunter and venomoth see use is because of how important being fast enough to sleep hypno really is. Hypnos downfall is that it uses hypnosis and can kinda struggle to break mons like kadabra or slowbro.
These 2 cling to their speed more than anything. With venomoth taking advantage of sleep powders higher accuracy to compensate for a significantly worse typing and 5 less base speed. Haunter has other useful tools like explosion and Thunderbolt to threaten the tiers powerful waters and quickly pivot out.
3 sleepers who
1. Outspeed hypno
2. Underspeed the previous 2 sleepers
3. Are handicapped heavily by their typing.
Victreebel is honestly a fine pokemon in UU, doing great into slower teams even without wrap. But in the lead its speed and typing leave alot to be desired, as yes it makes a mockery of electric leads. But the psychic and flying weakness without added gimmicks of outpacing mons like dnite and gyara or threatening special drops with psychic can be quite damning.
Poliwrath is a mon with alot of potential that unfortunately just needs too much to go its way. To start, it outspeeds hypno which is good but much like hypno its relying hypnosis to put mons to sleep. This raises issues as its one miss away from not just being slept by hypno but threatened with significant damage.
It's other issue is despite its great pool of tools it can struggle to really do much damage. Getting past lapras without boosts or submission is a struggle.
And finally venusaur is just..faster vic but no stun spore. And its that lack of stun and the fact the bonus speed kind of does...nothing? Like it ties dragonite but thats hardly a big selling point. It does get to use the better sleep move atleast. Venusaur is probably not worth the time In my opinion.
The next group is the TWAVERS
Yet again these can be broken up into mini groups.
() This asshole again...
() Solid consistent choices
() other twavers with uses.
Gonna keep this "brief" because I already talked about him but surprise surprise.
The best mon in the tier and most successful sleep lead is also the best twave lead for a few reasons.
It's got good bulk, spammable stab, freedom to fit rest when needed, ur gonna use one anyway lol. This isnt to say hypno is just far and away the best lead in the tier as its got issues like shaky kada mu as mentioned before. But its really just so excellent idt having it as the #1 lead is crazy at all.
While im grouping these together they aren't inherently that similar, electabuzz and kadabra share that coveted 105 speed tier which causes them to be compared a good bit. Personally I believe electabuzz to be better but i digress. The positives of electabuzz as well as its impact are pretty interesting. Electabuzz scores a faster speed tier than dodrio, something raichu doesn't get which is why raichu lead is nearly nonexistent. Electabuzz also packs a respectable attack stat and body slam(unlike electrode) to threaten switch ins like dugtrio with big damage and para, and others like golem and tangela with para without risking twave doing nothing into golem. Electabuzz also has a pretty noticeable bulk difference from kadabra.
Kadabras positives are harder to take advantage of but nonetheless impressive.
Kadabra obviously packs stab psychic, significantly threatening the 2 fastest sleep leads and making it a general pain to switch into for many teams trying to preserve their hypno. Speaking of hypno another claim to fame for kadabra is of the para leads its the best at cheesing through hypno. Kadabra is held back by its frankly terrible bulk, falling to stray hyper beams from most leads that run it. Clefable takes a pretty different approach as its speed is actually its biggest problem. Underspeeding not just haunter and veno, but hypno aswell. What clef does have going for it is a great offensive movepool, no weaknesses.
These 2 have nothing in common they're just the fringest lead twave picks i think are viable. Electrode aims to work somewhat as a bad electabuzz with a few key differences. Most notably its faster than dugtrio and has explosion. While dugtrio is scarcely ohko'd by non-crit explosion, dugtrios presence on a team almost guarantees no golem. Albeit the odds of haunter are relatively unaffected. So it can be suggested that luring in dugtrio increases the chance their team doesn't exactly like taking boom. Dragonite however plays somewhat like clefable, using its mixed offenses and great bulk+twave to mess with a whole bunch of things. Dragonite I must admit has been kinda just a me thing to this point? Atleast in tours. But I have enough faith to put it here.
Next im gonna touch on quickly are what i view as breaker/phys leads. What this means can be kinda confusing but honestly its just using the already powerful normals in the lead position.
()
()
The popularity of these pokemon in the lead slot can vary greatly between meta shifts and this one has so far greatly favored one over the other 2 and that is unsurprisingly lead dodrio. Lead dodrio in my opinion is the closest thing to an overpowered lead this tier has. The explosive power and inconsistent rng provided by its slams is enough, but being one crit away from invalidating all sleep leads bar hypno is certainly something aswell. Lead kangaskhan is significantly less common as its lower power and speed often put it in awkward lead situations but its better movepool and bulk can help it. Lead persian seems isolated to a few people and im not one of them but the theory seems to be based mainly on the incredible speed and power of persian.
Look out for haunter however as thats probably the most one sided lead mu I can think of.
Lastly I think its always good to touch on the fire types that may pop up in lead.
()
()
Three fire types, three somewhat different gameplans.
Ive gone over these 2 before however at the time I was a firm believer rapidash was simply, much better. My eyes have been opened to the uncompetitive plague that is confuse ray and now im not so sure.
Lets go over the positives of each one first.
Rapidash boasts a better speed tier, tying kadabra and electabuzz and outpacing dodrio. However the trade for this is a lack of really uh...any viable 4th move now that spins gone. Ive seen stomp and sub tried as 4ths but really ur just spamming slam and fire blast. Wheras ninetales obviously has access to the ever infuriating Confuse ray and has even opted to drop hyper beam for substitute in recent memory. Making it much harder to switch around and deal with.
Great mon, really not so impressive as a lead imo. It's 90 base speed is fine for the disgusting back breaker its known to be but much like kangaskhan its often insufficient in lead mus. It's added power is fine but it comes at the cost of absolutely all rng. Seriously 0 rng its pure honesty.
Overall I believe moltres is underexplored but lead is super not my preferred way to explore it.
Because shitting on moltres is a lame way to end this post ive decided to hastily throw together a lead VR.
would like to add some mid-tour thoughts myself as well
Fast Sleepers In Lead and Short Term Advantage
I consider the fast sleepers to be somewhat underwhelming in the lead slot. I will certainly be running these in the lead sometimes, but haunter and venomoth have poor bulk and defensive typing. When faced with a paralysis spreading lead() they either have to attempt to land sleep in spite of the paralysis that's about to hit them or usually have to switch hypno in to protect them from paralysis, exposing it to status + damage early instead, and given how much a hypno can do by itself the switch is often not worthwhile.. This means when faced with a faster thunder wave lead, they'll likely take paralysis even if they land sleep, allowing for the opponent's own hypno to muscle through them with damage and push sleep onto something more valuable, thus evening out the battle back into something closer to a 4v4 scenario.
And this is for the best case scenario for these two! Haunter relies on 60% hypnosis and most leads WILL punish misses effectively with 2HKOs: even slower pokemon like clefable and hypno can throw out a thunder wave to punish misses. Arguably haunter has more value attempting to click hypnosis in front of something that will punish a miss poorly or on a forced switch() , pokemon not usually found in the lead slot.
Nonetheless, they are both somewhat demanding pokemon to switch into after sleep has landed: thunderbolt from haunter is very painful to switch into and often leads to hypno being exposed to damage to protect teammates, same with venomoth's stun spore + psychic critdrop special, and is not a bad idea for a hypno removal gameplan
Keeping Em Honest
This lead is the definition of annoying for the opponent. hate being paralyzed immediately and getting nailed with psychic right away, and hypno is prone to taking some damage + paralysis when trying to disable it, and the pokemon that punish it in lead() both allow dangerous pokemon to come in earlygame. REALLY hates this, and most pokemon in the lead slot will at best speed tie it, most likely being paralyzed first , which gives it decent odds to snowball and land plenty of chip before being taken out or simply landing one thunder wave and abusing the 25% chance to bail out and have something else punish the paralyzed mon: it really doesnt have to commit unless it takes paralysis itself. Not a huge change from old UU, hypno stands out as a pokemon that will most likely give up its hp and status to disable it, and while hypno is pretty important to a team , it is an option nonetheless
Im Slow And OHKOd By So Many Crits And Noncrits
I havent seen Golem in too many games in this new UU, but it has really sucked in the games ive seen. And I dont mean to say this pokemon is bad or unusable: its just a terrible endgamer:
slower than everything but
no thunder wave or status moves
hits pretty hard, but often nets 3hkos and has a low critrate because of that bad speed
you can go to showdex and find like 10 pokemon in the tier that ohko it with or without critical hits
it really gains most of it's value early in the game when explosion is the least likely to be caught with a low hp sack or a sleeping mon and when there are the most mons to protect it and allow it to switch in more than once and force damage or kos. PLEASE use this guy more expendably and earlier in the game, i genuinely think is more capable in endgames and she does no damage. is the one endgame pokemon golem can comfortably save you from, but how often is dodrio closing out a game instead of something like
messy post, not organized but wanted to get my thoughts out there as someone who has really only looked at this tier "seriously" post PT ban. I ended up laddering up to 1430 on an acct and have been laddering alts up too just because I've been surprised with how much I've enjoyed the feel of this tier. I could care less about "flexing" the rank(this is a horrible GXE) but I want to show that I've played quite a number of games in this tier so I'm not just writing whatever I feel like saying and have backed it through reasonable testing.
- While Electabuzz is definitely not the best electric in the format right now, it is definitely one of the mons whose lead presence is so appreciated to keep the opponent honest. Shutting down Dodrio, Haunter(either through twave or through two {sychics) , and generally getting the jump on paralyzing most mons is a really nice benefit. Hard Dugtrio is always a possibility but a Body Slam or a Psychic can easily put Dug on the backfoot(or even better, just have Tangela as a hard stop to it or Golem!)). Rarely do you ever find a lead matchup with Ebuzz where you don't get at least something out of it, including one I want to discuss a little later in this post.
- Because I feel how I do about Ebuzz(and Dodrio), it shouldn't be a surprise that I dislike Haunter as a lead drastically right now. Haunter's speed is a boon for outpacing a lot of things and putting it to bed, but missing can screw you over in the long term. There's also an argument that Haunter has more value being in the back to prevent mid to lategame Persian from going in on your whole team, though I haven't experimented with backline Haunter much yet.
- I am a Moltres believer. Not in the lead like a prospective sample has, but after talking with Maris and Phil about it I ended up giving it a chance and I think it's poised to take the "special bird nuke" role that Articuno had prior. Fire Blast is much more spammable into this current meta than Articuno's pure reliance on Ice moves is, which hurts Articuno's viability harshly. Although Blizzard TECHNICALLY hits top tiers a little nicer and has that elusive freeze chance, Lapras being as good as it is means that Articuno is mainly a sitting duck until you manage to put Lapras out cold(pun intended). Moltres' 30% burn chance is really nice and forces physical mons to think twice about staying or switching in. It would be really funny if at the end of the year when we do the UU VR that Molt and Articuno swap places in UU and NU, but that's just a random trivia fact.
- I'm lumping Clefable and Victreebel together here because they share something in common: they are reasonably good sleeper pokemon that caught me off guard with how good they are in the current metagame.
Clefable might be as slow as Lapras, which is undesirable, but this also means that it can eat paralysis with little complaint - especially because of its reasonable bulk for the tier. And f Clefable goes to bed it isn't the worst thing in the world compared to losing a Hypno, Lapras, or otherwise offensively valuable pokemon. Its coverage is vast but I generally think that it's best equipped with Body Slam, TWave, Sing and Blizzard to maximize fishing for secondary effects that benefit the rest of your team. As far as Victreebel, it's a little more streamlined, but having the ability to outspeed Hypno for sleeping purposes, Razor Leafing Lapras for consistent crits, completely ignoring and shredding Slowbro's attempts to Amnesia, and blanket checking Raichu is awesome. It's not super splashable but when it works, it works. Victreebel has found itself all over the RBY tiering spectrum, but I strongly believe that it has finally found a home in postwrap UU.
- Bye Tentacruel. While I thought for a second you might be valuable due to your speed tier, I was sorely mistaken. I hope you enjoy your new home in NU, if you find a way to deal with Vaporeon and Dewgong well enough.
- However, hello, Slowbro! Having this pokemon in the tier has been so valued. Whether as an Amnesia wincon, a bulky twaver, a sneaky Counter user, this pokemon really offers a lot to the tier and it's SUCH a needed mon to help address physical offense.
- Hypno, another recent "drop" back into the tier(rip UUBL), is a pokemon I feel we've already seen enough discussion on in this thread, but I want to also add that I'm with Melbelle in that I hate the idea of lead Hypno. Ideally, if you can, you want to keep Hypno as healthy as you can for as long as you can. There are better "double powder/status" pokemon you can use(Clefable, Venomoth) that don't directly put your Hypno at risk and allow it to check other Pokemon later in the match. Obviously a game defining pokemon, little more to say.
- I've talked about Lapras indirectly enough but this pokemon is a demon. It's not broken, it's just really good. Not having a gameplan on how to deal with it and pressure it is asking to just lose to it outright, and you still might anyway if rng feels like bullying you.
- Speaking about RNG, let's talk about Ninetales. This pokemon is such a funny cheesy lead, as its speed tier means it can toss a Confuse Ray out against most leads and then try to chip them down with Body Slam or Fire Blast for additional rng. I do not actually believe this mon is broken, but it is arguably uncompetitive and I want to hear what others have to say about it. I'd rather not see it go as I do think it becomes a lot easier to manage if you break through and/or para it, but I can't be completely honest about the tier without bringing this mon up. In a tier that's already accused of being RNG heavy, Ninetales, even more than Clefable as I mentioned above, seeks to exploit this viciously.
- Ok back to the serious stuff. I'll conclude by talking about Raichu and Dugtrio***. IME just being able to check one of these mons makes you a semi viable mon already in the tier. Having one flying mon, or a Tangela, is a downright necessity to prevent Duggy's EQ spam from getting out of hand. Flying types(other than Dragonite) open the door up to Raichu having the ability to bully a lot of mons and find ways to bring the game's pace under its control.
- Back to Dugtrio and Raichu though Sand-Attack and Slash are the only slashable(not sorry) moves on Duggy, but they both serve a reasonable purpose. Raichu can never afford to drop any of TWave/Tbolt/Surf, but last slot has been toyed with a lot. I've seen Maris use Thunder(2HKOs Lapras cleanly), I've experimented with Flash(sorry for cheesing you with that one in RBY UU Cup, Hammer), but also Seismic Toss and Hyper Beam have been used all the same. Would love to hear what people are using more on these mons because frankly whenever I look at them in the builder I end up never feeling confident in what I pick.
***Tangela in particular is insanely notable for being the one mon that actually stops both these mons cold; though being weak to Blizzard and having a comparative low special kinda sucks, I believe it will stick around for this one niche alone because it's just such a good thing to have going for it.
I'm really happy with the state of this tier currently and I think it's in a mostly good place, barring the questionable nature of lead Ninetales from a competitive integrity standpoint. I'm grateful that OU stopped using Slowbro enough to have it drop into our hands. I won't pretend that RNG can't twist a lot of games, but let's be honest, if you can't make peace with that then RBY is likely not a competitive generation you enjoy.
Ok, I ended up writing a lot more than I thought I would but I hope that this shows how much a newcomer is enjoying RBY UU. If you are new to RBY but don't feel like playing OU, please try this tier out! I can only hope that the future shakeups that come to other RBY tiers are as fun as this one.
Okay so I really like alot of what's said here but i wanna take this opportunity to tackle clefable. Specific the arguments presented here calling it a better alternative dual status lead and whatnot.
I could not agree less and I actually despise sing clefable. Ive seen the move pop up a bit and each time ive honestly cringed. Sing is a move so unreliable and luck based I think its best left on lapras who even still actually clicks it pretty sparingly. Clefable running sing are presented with countless issues because of the move slot they lose to do so.
Not being able to pad this mon out with something like seismic toss or tbolt to round out its mu should it survive late game is truly dreadful. As well as there honestly being few lead mus the mon actually wants to click sing anyway.
Idk just wanna get it out there that I detest that set.
I also see you touched on my precious baby raichu and said something ive deemed as objectively incorrect from the very first day of this metagame. "Raichu cannot drop thunder wave" i think this is ab absolutely bullshit claim lol. This tier has plenty enough twave support to enable raichus frankly most powerful set of agility 3 attacks.
Id also like to note that tangelas 100 special is certainly anything but bad, its actually the same as gyarados who i notice seems to have gone undiscussed in this post? So ill touch on that mon quickly.
Before I get to why im so high on gyara right now i need to set the framework of why its traits are valuable at all.
Dragonite, specifically agility Dragonite has quickly come to my attention as one of the most obnoxiously powerful pokemon this tier has. All it asks is lapras is chipped and hypno preferably cant sleep and the mon goes on rampages the likes of which this tiers rarely seen. Gyarados while unable to do much post agility serves as a constant threat to Dragonite users. Able to ohko with blizzard as well as bully most mons dnite may hope to retreat to.
Okay so I really like alot of what's said here but i wanna take this opportunity to tackle clefable. Specific the arguments presented here calling it a better alternative dual status lead and whatnot.
I could not agree less and I actually despise sing clefable. Ive seen the move pop up a bit and each time ive honestly cringed. Sing is a move so unreliable and luck based I think its best left on lapras who even still actually clicks it pretty sparingly. Clefable running sing are presented with countless issues because of the move slot they lose to do so.
Not being able to pad this mon out with something like seismic toss or tbolt to round out its mu should it survive late game is truly dreadful. As well as there honestly being few lead mus the mon actually wants to click sing anyway.
Idk just wanna get it out there that I detest that set.
I also see you touched on my precious baby raichu and said something ive deemed as objectively incorrect from the very first day of this metagame. "Raichu cannot drop thunder wave" i think this is ab absolutely bullshit claim lol. This tier has plenty enough twave support to enable raichus frankly most powerful set of agility 3 attacks.
Id also like to note that tangelas 100 special is certainly anything but bad, its actually the same as gyarados who i notice seems to have gone undiscussed in this post? So ill touch on that mon quickly.
Before I get to why im so high on gyara right now i need to set the framework of why its traits are valuable at all.
Dragonite, specifically agility Dragonite has quickly come to my attention as one of the most obnoxiously powerful pokemon this tier has. All it asks is lapras is chipped and hypno preferably cant sleep and the mon goes on rampages the likes of which this tiers rarely seen. Gyarados while unable to do much post agility serves as a constant threat to Dragonite users. Able to ohko with blizzard as well as bully most mons dnite may hope to retreat to.
Thanks for replying! To be honest, the reason I didn't touch on Gyarados was because my post was just writing down whatever came to mind at the time. I actually think Gyarados is very good myself! I just didn't really have anything too remarkable to cover about it, but I'm glad you wrote about it because it is definitely worthy of being pointed out in the current meta.
I think when discussing Tangela's special I worded this very poorly and what I should have said is that Mega Drain is not exactly the most spammable move + it dislikes the fact that most things will be outspeeding it so it will often have to stomach more hits. However, that doesn't take away from Tang's strengths at all(double status, walling Raichu/Dug, etc).
On Clefable, I think the point for me is that it usually isn't a life or death situation clicking a sleep move like it can be for Haunter because it has the bulk to "afford" missing Sing and assess the risk-reward of clicking it in that specific moment(or else it could BSlam fish, Blizzard, or TWave as necessary). I'd be open to trying out a different slot on Clef other than Sing and trying something new though; the mon is known for its flexibility, after all.
As far as Raichu goes. I've used Agility TWave TBolt Surf a few times just to get off an emergency para on something trying to RK me, but I honestly might have to try out agil + 3 atk when I get the chance to build again. Do you usually end up preferring Hyper Beam in that slot?
Heya, I'm new to this tier but have been playin for a few weeks. Got second in RBY UU Open so that's cool (GGs to Wanted btw). Figured I'd make a post about the meta. Apologies if its a bit long i just got a lot to say.
Starting with a Personal VR!
Its mostly ordered within tiers, gonna give they higher up mons more detailed sections and then cram most of the lower stuff into smaller little blurbs. S1: Use it always
This guy is stupid as hell and pretty much required on a serious team. Beefy, strong, has both Hypnosis and Twave, and JUST enough speed to be annoying for slower stuff. Checks a vast majority of special attackers but kinda ends up getting beat up trading with the opposing hypno in a lot of games. This kinda brings me to my problem with it in the tier as a whole, from what ive seen from playing this tier, a lot of times Hypno wars can end up resulting in one side being extremely favored depending on how the rng swings, ESPECIALLY if nothing has been slept yet. This, in my opinion, is what causes the sort of rough rng based games we've seen in UUCL and various other tours. I wont go much more into it bc theres a lot more to go, but i kinda think Hypno is a problem (also fuck cray there is no reason to keep that shit legal)
S2: Use on most teams
Really nice bulky glue for the tier, soft checks most physical attackers and can hit hard enough back to justify switching in in the first place. The main issue it faces is how awful its speed is, and how it kinda wants to save its health for late game but really cant afford to in most cases. Regardless, its an amazing paralysis abuser and provides the tier with defensive utility that its needed for a while. Unfortunately it can kinda devolve to cray shenanigans sometimes but yknow it's not its fault it learns the move. Main thing separating it from Hypno is the fact that its not required on most teams, as more offensive structures have proved to be fully capable of dropping it.
A1: Normals and the Rat
I dont really see a super major difference between all of these viability-wise, they all got their ups and downs that keep them close together and rather inter-changeable in terms of rankings. Odds are most teams have 1-3 of these guys and are almost never worse off as a result.
Raichu provides the tier with a scary and fast clicker that can support teammates w twave in a pinch, but its held back by the development of Grass-types (mainly vic but also tangela), as well as Agility spamming teams hindering the effectiveness of its twaves.
Dodrio is a busted breaker in the right matchups and is even a nice lead, but Golem kinda ruins its day and it struggles as a lead with lead Electabuzz being everywhere.
Kanga is cool due to its handy ability to trade into most teams, making it a serviceable answer to a good number of agility clickers (Dragonite, Raichu), though it struggles w molt and cuno if not carrying Rock Slide. Its god-awful special bulk and average speed dont really do it favors
Persian being super fast and having an autocrit move makes it a really nice speed control option, it can also take a hit in a pinch vs smth like Hypno or the tradebots. It just wishes it was a little stronger a lot of times.
A2: Rock Paper Scizors. Or in this case, Flying Ground Electric (yes i know dnite isnt elec weak shut up)
Dragonite is a demon, its super fat and poses a solid offensive threat and can opt to either spread twaves early or sit in the back and clean with Agility. Doing all of this while being a great answer to both the Grounds and Grass gives it a reall nice role. Main problem is how literally anything with blizzard makes it shit itselt and run, leaving whatever comes in to take the full brunt of it to the face. Regardless, it offers a nice set of tools for a good amount of teams.
This thing is easily the tiers best and most consistent lead, with its base 105 speed scaring out/forcing para on the base 100 leads Dodrio and Ninetales, while also outspeeding every sleeper in the tier. Its main issue arrises when Dugrio and especially Golem get in on it trying to Twave, but the former really doesnt like risking a Body Slam Para and isnt super hard to switch into early on, while the ladder can be chipped pretty well by Psychic.
Ok so imagine Dragonite if it played more like a Kangaskhan, thats Gyarados. It doesnt have the same utlity or endgame potential as Dragonite, but it can still come in on similar stuff while being nearly as threatening on the physical side and just as, if not more threatening on the special side due to having access to an actual STAB move. Additionally, it has 1 more base speed than Dnite and has the benefit of not drawing out Blizzards, so while it doesnt exactly have the same consistency as Dnite, it has its benefits.
"Whats the fastest mon in the tier doing at the bottom of A?" To put it simple, it really does not like the meta atm due to just how weak it is. Anything with half decent physical bulk or thats just immune to ground can kinda bully it. However, it does have the benefit of being able to RNG its way out of this, either with crits or sand attack nonsense. Also being this fast and immune to twave can never be truly bad.
B1: Hey these guys have some cool roles
Fastest sleeper in the tier on top of being an amazing Persian answer, so whats the issue? Well, post sleep its kinda.... awkward, not really super threatening without booming so unless you really need a Persian check it can be a tad weird to slot given how most teams tend to just have a sleeper built in w Hypno. I dont hate it as a lead despite how weird it can be into buzz bc early sleep can be nice, but its defo an oddball
The propaganda spreads... really nice Raichu check that can spread dual status and has a speed tier that outspeeds Hypno. Auto-crit Razor Leaf is also super nice for punching a hole in Lapras and nuking the occasional AmneBro. The downside would be its matchups into the guy directly above it in this post, as well as the guy at the top of A2. Paralyzing Haunter is still very nice so thats not a horrendous matchup, but facing Agility Dnite is super rough for this guy, as are legendary birds. So, always exhibit caution with this guy.
Slowbro here has the nice benefit of having a great defense stat that lets it kinda check the normals. Emphasis on "kinda" because it has a tendency to become a crit magnet if it cant land a para on its target quickly, so its usually better to hide this guy till a few paras are out. Amnesia sets can also be demons in the back so long as Hypno (and any other potential Stossers) are taken out.
Oh how the mighty have fallen... anyways its an alright "second Hypno" i guess, can help to avoid some of the Hypno War RNG shenanigans that can occur. 105 base speed is also nice as it matches Electabuzz in its speed, problem with it as a lead is that any physical lead sends it directly to the pearly gates if they dont get full parad.
B2: Round Guys and Fire-Types... and Clef
I think moltres is threatening enough in this tier to deserve a rise, but im probably not as high on it as some due to it really hating some matchups. These being Dragonite, Gyarados, and the occasional Slowbro (especially amnesia). The ladder of which really sucks to face because Amne sets tend to hide in the back just like Moltres, so if you spend the whole game setting up a Molt clean and see that guy, it just feels rough. Regardless, these are not infallible mons, so if you play your cards right they can be overwhelmed and Moltres can be opened up big time
This is kind of an oddball in terms of normal types because it doesnt really operate similarly to the others at all. Regardless, a bulky normal with twave is very nice even if it is ungodly slow compared to the other normals. It also packs an actually decently good Special stat letting it fire off Blizzards and Thunderbolts that can dent stuff. I usually like it as a lead so it can get early value with Twave clicking and bashing the opposing lead pretty hard but I'm sure its fine enough in the mid-game.
These two are pretty much the same outside of the fact that dash opts for more consistency while tales plays for rng bullshit. I know I'm defo alone on the Dash train but having 105 speed as well as Agility for shrugging of para from leads like Electabuzz is really cool. All I have to say about tales is fuck confuse ray.
Similar to vic in that its a nice check to electrics, but this guy can also check grounds too! Just wish it wasnt so ungodly passive and had an actually good grass move. Regardless, its a nice damage sponge so long as you can accommodate its passivity.
Loves:
Para Spreaders
Dodrio Present on Opposing Team
Hates:
Its abysmal speed and special bulk
Tangela
People who think its a Moltres switch
Considering the rest of these guys are pretty fringe they arent getting much said at all
C1
Moltres but with higher highs and lower lows
Hard to really get value out of with having it kill itself
Haunter with less speed and damage in favor of access to para
C2
Fire types hate this guy
Imagine if fire blast was backed up by SD + EQ
idk this guy wins sometimes so surely a dug and dodo switch that outspeeds everything relevant is cool
Kind of an asshole if a ground isnt present
Uhhhhhh
These are just guys i looked at in the builder for a few minutes and went "idk maybe they got some sauce"
Lastly, a brief look at the Personal Lead VR because im getting tired not gonna talk about all of them bc some are like super specific (Unordered in tiers):
A
See what i said about it in the main VR
B
Strong as hell and hits good into any lead that isnt Buzz
Buzz that trades elec stab and the ability to eat any phyical hit ever for Psychic Stab
See: Main VR
Good at getting early value while preserving the more broken normals for later, also can Para and absorb a sleep given its less valuable than the stuff in the back.
C
Nice Offensive team lead that helps start games with a fast pace
Fastest sleep lead is a nice trait to have even if its a tad wonky to use afterwards
Fire lead that can SD is fun
Second fastest sleep lead with access to paralysis is fun.
Similar to clef, but is a bit awkward due to having weaknesses. Main benefit is its higher speed and resistance to Fire.
- Speaking about RNG, let's talk about Ninetales. This pokemon is such a funny cheesy lead, as its speed tier means it can toss a Confuse Ray out against most leads and then try to chip them down with Body Slam or Fire Blast for additional rng. I do not actually believe this mon is broken, but it is arguably uncompetitive and I want to hear what others have to say about it. I'd rather not see it go as I do think it becomes a lot easier to manage if you break through and/or para it, but I can't be completely honest about the tier without bringing this mon up. In a tier that's already accused of being RNG heavy, Ninetales, even more than Clefable as I mentioned above, seeks to exploit this viciously.
A little under three weeks after posting this my opinion could not be more different. Ninetales as a lead is definitely more on the uncompetitive side and it's purely due to Confuse Ray, meaning Ninetales is almost definitely not staying UU once we VR it for the future NU drops. Lapras is also able to make use of Cray as well to get some cheesy interactions, but it's much less integral to its kit as post-ban it can just go back to Sing/Body Slam/BoltBeam coverage. And just to be exhaustive for those wondering, the only other mon that could "technically" be viable with it here is Haunter, but it's already strapping itself with TBolt/Psychic/Hypnosis/Explosion, none of which are droppable in the current meta making it a moot point.
It's been discussed a bit amongst RBY UUers, but most of us are in agreement that it'll be a party when Confuse Ray is gone. Nobody's confused on that one.
There's also been rumblings of banning accuracy dropping moves, specifically one of the more dangerous examples being Sand-Attack on Dugtrio, since it can go into the same sort of "fishing" category. The idea being that if Dugtrio can sub up on a switch or a para or whatever, that it'll likely get one or two Sand-Attacks off to basically cut your accuracy in half. I don't know how I feel about this one yet though. Dugtrio doesn't exactly "need" slash as its fourth slot, but I'd be lying if I said there weren't games I've won purely by having it over Sand Attack. There are some other acc fishing pokemon, but that's the biggest offender imo.
I think blatantly sand attack shouldn't get looked at until we deal with Confuse ray and by extension supersonic.
Sand attack truly only has one user unless you consider variants of it like flash and kinesis which simply have not seen tour play in current meta.
I think Confuse ray is just frankly a league above and needs a ban as fast as humanly possible. Make lapras honest again.
Ninetales as a lead is definitely more on the uncompetitive side and it's purely due to Confuse Ray, meaning Ninetales is almost definitely not staying UU once we VR it for the future NU drops. Lapras is also able to make use of Cray as well to get some cheesy interactions, but it's much less integral to its kit as post-ban it can just go back to Sing/Body Slam/BoltBeam coverage. And just to be exhaustive for those wondering, the only other mon that could "technically" be viable with it here is Haunter, but it's already strapping itself with TBolt/Psychic/Hypnosis/Explosion, none of which are droppable in the current meta making it a moot point.
I broadly agree with your take on confuse ray being uncompetitive, but wanted to comment on two things here:
1) I don't think Ninetales is only a decent lead because of confuse ray. When I run Ninetales, I tend to prefer fblast/bslam/hbeam/quickattack for consistency, and it's still a perfectly serviceable mon both in lead and in the back. Saying it'd definitely drop to NU without confuse ray feels a bit too premature— it still hits everything in the tier quite hard and doesn't have the same bliz/tbolt/4x rock weakness that moltres does.
2) I think Psychic is droppable on Haunter right now for Night Shade. The 33% special drop on psychic and the chance to crit are nice, but night shade is safer into more of the tier, and notably helps a lot into a slowbro with amnesias up. I think you could make an argument for loading either one, but I see night shade more often.
Ninetales as a lead is definitely more on the uncompetitive side and it's purely due to Confuse Ray, meaning Ninetales is almost definitely not staying UU once we VR it for the future NU drops.
I think you aren't giving Ninetales enough credit. Ninetales isn't just some cheese lead, it's a great lead even without Confuse Ray. Fire Blast gets great ranges, it hits almost every threshold that Moltres Fire Blast does, while being bulky and having a better defensive profile for the lead slot, and the 30% burn rate on Fire Blast means that even stuff that could switch into it doesn't want to. It beats Normal-Type Leads, trades out and is favored vs Electrics, beats sleepers, and to top of it all off, nothing really likes switching into it. This is all independent of Confuse Ray, as it gets the 3HKO on Hypno without it. That's fine in the same way no one is clamoring to click Hypnosis versus the legendary birds. Sometimes you don't click Confuse Ray vs Hypno anyways if your opponent actually respects Ninetales as a real mon and tends to click Thunder Wave t1 instead of gambling with Hypnosis. The 30% burn rate of Fire Blast means that switchin-ins like Gyarados and Dragonite do not particularly like switching in, and in the case of Dragonite, it might be Ninetales favored since Dragonite can't really do much back to you barring Thunder Wave if it gets burned, which could be spun into a positive since it gives a healthy and decent sleep blocker. Back Moltres is unfavored to win, especially if it switches into a Fire Blast, since if has to take Double-Edge recoil chip, contend with Body Slam paralysis, and overall has a lower critrate. Lead Rapidash is so much more afraid of paralysis and usually comes out behind in a Ninetales vs Rapidash mirror because of it. Nothing else likes switching in.
This is all in spite of Confuse Ray, really. Confuse Ray helps a bit in the lead Haunter and to a lesser extent lead Hypno matchups, which IMO are already mediocre in spite of the existence of Confuse Ray. The only other use of Confuse Ray is see is clicking it versus a Dragonite or Slowbro switch, especially in the case of a burn, since out of everything on your team you probably want Ninetales to take paralysis and Confuse Ray makes it much safer for you to switch after you get paralyzed. If you get lucky enough with Confuse Ray you can just stay in and push, but that really isn't the primary goal. Ninetales also has some other moves I've run and liked. You can run Flamethrower for consistenty, or you can run Quick Attack which can definitely pick up some surprise KOs since I feel Ninetales ends up paralyzed quite often. I know I'm a bit of an outlier on this, but I've also ran (or at least seriously considered) back Ninetales as well. If one considers Ninetales as UU right now, banning Confuse Ray won't suddenly make it niche as Rapidash or whatever takes its place.
There's also been rumblings of banning accuracy dropping moves, specifically one of the more dangerous examples being Sand-Attack on Dugtrio, since it can go into the same sort of "fishing" category. The idea being that if Dugtrio can sub up on a switch or a para or whatever, that it'll likely get one or two Sand-Attacks off to basically cut your accuracy in half. I don't know how I feel about this one yet though. Dugtrio doesn't exactly "need" slash as its fourth slot, but I'd be lying if I said there weren't games I've won purely by having it over Sand Attack. There are some other acc fishing pokemon, but that's the biggest offender imo.
Largely cheese, not game breaking currently. The usual suspects (Sand Attack Dug, Kinesis Kadabra, Flash Hypno, etc.) either are playing a huge gamble due to their low bulk or in the case of Hypno want to be doing something else, not accuracy fishing. The formats biggest RNG elements imo are rando Cray, Paralysis spreading, and various crits associated with the big dogs and normals. Would be more interested to tackle those in some form first for stuff that is deemed an issue.
Wouldn't care to see acc drop moves go but they're not the worst offenders of the cons this format has imo.
Fire STAB is really strong in UU right now. Since the playerbase has convinced themselves that Slowbro is mid there is a strong possibility your ninetales gets strong neutral coverage against the normals, hypno, lapras, and electrics on teams currently. Also as Wanted mentions u don't really wan't Gyarados or Dragonite to take burn, so even if they are your resists you don't like switching them. I think Ninetales is good as both a lead and backmon mainly due to the 100 speed tier and how deadly Fire Blast is in this tier, it's not rlly a cheese mon that requires cray to function.
On the topic of Sand Attack, I think you can't really just equate accuracy drops to being unhealthy, especially since there are some instances where accuracy dropping moves is actually improve a tier (see RBY Ubers). When I weigh the competitiveness of a move, the question I ask myself is "how often does a bad click of this move get rewarded?" The thing about is that it Sand Attack is very often actually the optimal play. For example if you are behind a sub and facing a Dragonite, your best odds to 1v1 it are to use Sand Attack on it and fish for misses. This is obviously luck reliant, but it is the optimal strategy for the 1v1. This is different than Ninetales randomly clicking Confuse Ray on Kangaskhan and hoping for a self-hit rather than just forcing damage on it with Fire Blast. For this reason I think if we tackle Sand Attack on Dugtrio, any kind of tiering action should be Dugtrio itself for being broken, not Sand Attack for being uncompetitive. There are no other problematic users of accuracy moves in this tier, so if the problem is Sand Attack Dugtrio then we should go for Dugtrio itself.
Thanks to all who responded to this! Any RBY LT discussion on a forum is a good thing and I'm always happy to have my takes on competitive Pokemon challenged.
1) I don't think Ninetales is only a decent lead because of confuse ray. When I run Ninetales, I tend to prefer fblast/bslam/hbeam/quickattack for consistency, and it's still a perfectly serviceable mon both in lead and in the back. Saying it'd definitely drop to NU without confuse ray feels a bit too premature— it still hits everything in the tier quite hard and doesn't have the same bliz/tbolt/4x rock weakness that moltres does.
I think you aren't giving Ninetales enough credit. Ninetales isn't just some cheese lead, it's a great lead even without Confuse Ray. Fire Blast gets great ranges, it hits almost every threshold that Moltres Fire Blast does, while being bulky and having a better defensive profile for the lead slot, and the 30% burn rate on Fire Blast means that even stuff that could switch into it doesn't want to.
Fire STAB is really strong in UU right now. Since the playerbase has convinced themselves that Slowbro is mid there is a strong possibility your ninetales gets strong neutral coverage against the normals, hypno, lapras, and electrics on teams currently. Also as Wanted mentions u don't really wan't Gyarados or Dragonite to take burn, so even if they are your resists you don't like switching them. I think Ninetales is good as both a lead and backmon mainly due to the 100 speed tier and how deadly Fire Blast is in this tier, it's not rlly a cheese mon that requires cray to function.
These were excellent points. I think what happened here is that I put such a premium on Moltres' additional flying type that I didn't really consider the benefits of mono fire in other situations - and as mentioned, Body Slam and the base 100 speed tier are also really valuable tools. I may have been thinking too one dimensionally with Ninetales, so I'm going to end up trying out CRayless Ninetales sooner rather than later.
On the topic of Sand Attack, I think you can't really just equate accuracy drops to being unhealthy, especially since there are some instances where accuracy dropping moves is actually improve a tier (see RBY Ubers). When I weigh the competitiveness of a move, the question I ask myself is "how often does a bad click of this move get rewarded?" The thing about is that it Sand Attack is very often actually the optimal play. For example if you are behind a sub and facing a Dragonite, your best odds to 1v1 it are to use Sand Attack on it and fish for misses. This is obviously luck reliant, but it is the optimal strategy for the 1v1. This is different than Ninetales randomly clicking Confuse Ray on Kangaskhan and hoping for a self-hit rather than just forcing damage on it with Fire Blast. For this reason I think if we tackle Sand Attack on Dugtrio, any kind of tiering action should be Dugtrio itself for being broken, not Sand Attack for being uncompetitive. There are no other problematic users of accuracy moves in this tier, so if the problem is Sand Attack Dugtrio then we should go for Dugtrio itself.
Hopefully my post didn't come off as all accuracy fishing being unhealthy; I'm a huge fan of what Kinesis Zam and Flash Mewtwo bring to Ubers to shut down opposing setup mons, as well as Sand-Attack Pidgeot in current ZU/PU just for other tiers' examples. I even ended up trying Flash Raichu during the last RBY UU individual to see if it had any merit, but it ended up being a one time cheese tool and I didn't find it to have much consistency at all. I think you'd be right policy-wise to target Dugtrio rather than accuracy itself; even if I think what else Dugtrio offers is overall a positive to the tier(lategame cleaner, a fast ground in a tier that sorely lacks it), I can't really argue that there's any other accuracy lowering Pokemon that exploits this nearly as well.
I don't want to say I agree with banning the mon yet though as I personally need more time, calcs/interactions, and games to come to my own conclusion about it. But again, if and when the RBY UU community has that discussion, the argument for targeting Dugtrio instead makes complete sense.
Going to end my post by saying that I can see why some players think Slowbro is mid or awkward but that I don't share the take at all. Slowbro's got a number of viable moves it can choose to run and I haven't regretted using it. There are some games it falls flat on its face, but others where it really shows its worth in picking it. If Moltres and Ninetales continue to impress in the current format, and I don't see why they wouldn't given how everyone is correctly hyping up Fire Blast's 30% burn chance + overall power, Slowbro may become more appreciated.
The main issue I've always had with Slowbro is less to do with Slowbro itself and more to do with how awkward it can be to slot due to its awful speed. The thing is even slower then Golem which means its prone to getting the crap beaten out of it and when most teams already have Hypno and Lapras, adding another super slow mon can be rather awkward. It does have its upsides of course, good physical bulk alongside Twave will never be bad, and its bulk and typing let it check the Normals decently as well as the Fires. The biggest issue is just how much of a crit magnet it tends to be due to how much it can be forced to click Rest. I think the best way to run it is as a support option that you keep hidden till later after some paras have been spread, letting it be a pain now that it actually outspeeds some stuff, however needing to keep a defensive piece away from para so that it can function well enough is rather annoying. Alternatively, a late game Amnesia sweeper could be fun to mess with given how its pretty nice into most endgame Agility cleaners (Moltres, Articuno, can take Dnite Tbolt once Amne is up), perhaps thats the angle Slowbro needs to go at.
These were excellent points. I think what happened here is that I put such a premium on Moltres' additional flying type that I didn't really consider the benefits of mono fire in other situations - and as mentioned, Body Slam and the base 100 speed tier are also really valuable tools. I may have been thinking too one dimensionally with Ninetales, so I'm going to end up trying out CRayless Ninetales sooner rather than later.
the 90 speed and weakness to blizzard and thunderbolt really hurt moltres efficacy as a lead, electabuzz is one of the most neutral leads and usually needs no team support for bad matchups, and given it outspeeds and 3hkos with rby critrate its a lot more likely to lose the 1v1 to electabuzz, like ninetales just excels a lot more here, not to mention any faster sleeper leads or dragonite having the 3hko on moltres with blizzard. its much better as a back pokemon as it can switch into kangaskhan earthquake and use agility
Going to end my post by saying that I can see why some players think Slowbro is mid or awkward but that I don't share the take at all. Slowbro's got a number of viable moves it can choose to run and I haven't regretted using it. There are some games it falls flat on its face, but others where it really shows its worth in picking it. If Moltres and Ninetales continue to impress in the current format, and I don't see why they wouldn't given how everyone is correctly hyping up Fire Blast's 30% burn chance + overall power, Slowbro may become more appreciated.
The main issue I've always had with Slowbro is less to do with Slowbro itself and more to do with how awkward it can be to slot due to its awful speed. The thing is even slower then Golem which means its prone to getting the crap beaten out of it and when most teams already have Hypno and Lapras, adding another super slow mon can be rather awkward. It does have its upsides of course, good physical bulk alongside Twave will never be bad, and its bulk and typing let it check the Normals decently as well as the Fires. The biggest issue is just how much of a crit magnet it tends to be due to how much it can be forced to click Rest. I think the best way to run it is as a support option that you keep hidden till later after some paras have been spread, letting it be a pain now that it actually outspeeds some stuff, however needing to keep a defensive piece away from para so that it can function well enough is rather annoying. Alternatively, a late game Amnesia sweeper could be fun to mess with given how its pretty nice into most endgame Agility cleaners (Moltres, Articuno, can take Dnite Tbolt once Amne is up), perhaps thats the angle Slowbro needs to go at.
Notably, as of week 7 of UUCL most players have run articuno at least once and moltres has been performing well, so the lack of slowbro is clearly being taken advantage of.
The reality of slowbro is that its the actual slowest pokemon in an rby tier and it also lacks a lot in immediate threat -- it is heavily incentivized to click thunder wave because it easily crumbles to opponent pressure otherwise. it will barely crit at all and it has 80 special with 2 stab attacking types that are both walled by a common pokemon in the tier, so it relies on amnesia/seismic toss for breaking potential. its absolutely viable rn, think we just need to figure out teammates and lines for it more than anything , since slowbro doesnt play as straightforwardly as other rby mons do
the 90 speed and weakness to blizzard and thunderbolt really hurt moltres efficacy as a lead, electabuzz is one of the most neutral leads and usually needs no team support for bad matchups, and given it outspeeds and 3hkos with rby critrate its a lot more likely to lose the 1v1 to electabuzz, like ninetales just excels a lot more here, not to mention any faster sleeper leads or dragonite having the 3hko on moltres with blizzard. its much better as a back pokemon as it can switch into kangaskhan earthquake and use agility
Notably, as of week 7 of UUCL most players have run articuno at least once and moltres has been performing well, so the lack of slowbro is clearly being taken advantage of.
The reality of slowbro is that its the actual slowest pokemon in an rby tier and it also lacks a lot in immediate threat -- it is heavily incentivized to click thunder wave because it easily crumbles to opponent pressure otherwise. it will barely crit at all and it has 80 special with 2 stab attacking types that are both walled by a common pokemon in the tier, so it relies on amnesia/seismic toss for breaking potential. its absolutely viable rn, think we just need to figure out teammates and lines for it more than anything , since slowbro doesnt play as straightforwardly as other rby mons do
- I am a Moltres believer. Not in the lead like a prospective sample has, but after talking with Maris and Phil about it I ended up giving it a chance and I think it's poised to take the "splashable special bird nuke" role that Articuno had prior.
Yeah, I tried lead Moltres a number of times on the ladder last month with the prospective sample and just kinda hated everything about it for the reasons you and ButtGallon mentioned earlier. Then I ended up stealing half the Molt stuff I saw you + others bring in UUCL and that was when I started appreciating it a lot more; I covered the Ninetales stuff a bit above so won't repeat myself(though Backtales as gastlies mentioned could be kinda cool to try out too)
Alternatively, a late game Amnesia sweeper could be fun to mess with given how its pretty nice into most endgame Agility cleaners (Moltres, Articuno, can take Dnite Tbolt once Amne is up), perhaps thats the angle Slowbro needs to go at.
Most of the Slowbros I've liked have been Amnesia + Psychic, but Seismic Toss and counter sets are quite good too. I think it'll just take more time for people to appreciate Slowbro, but we will definitely get there.
This is different than Ninetales randomly clicking Confuse Ray on Kangaskhan and hoping for a self-hit rather than just forcing damage on it with Fire Blast.
I don't think that this is the main complaint about Confuse Ray. In many cases it is the best click, which means facing Confuse Ray is more of an inevitability throughout a season than anything. Calls to ban Confuse Ray are the strongest now in UU than ever before in any other lower tier, and it's because the move is genuinely good in this format, and therefore inescapable.
When I weigh the competitiveness of a move, the question I ask myself is "how often does a bad click of this move get rewarded?" The thing about is that it Sand Attack is very often actually the optimal play.
I don't think this is a good metric to determine if something's uncompetitive. If you apply this logic to Confuse Ray, you'd come to the conclusion that Confuse Ray is healthy, actually. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1uu-2432393715-h6pfp2k7bvcym672ywyalqrnt1puonwpw
I will stand by all Confuse Ray clicks in this battle. I believe all clicks were optimal, and it allowed me come back from a completely lost position, but my win really wasn't "deserved." I don't think how often a click is optimal should really be factored into whether or not it is competitive. Pretty much every move can reward you for playing bad if you get lucky. I'm not too much of a stickler for the rigid definition of uncompetitive, so I consider metrics like "Would the better player win more often with it gone?" or "Do people enjoy playing with it?" or "How important is the move for tier balance?" to be much more useful.
confuse ray obviously should be banned its far from just ninetales anyway. not sure if any real argument to keep it tbh and i think lapras is a bigger abuser than ninetales.
craying haunter/hypno is not healthy either btw.
i still think accuracy lowering moves (at least the 100% accurate ones, you cant ban sand attack and ignore smokescreen on account of same acc but smokescreen being an "upgrade" due to higher pp. not a valid reason for uu action but ill point out smokescreen>hpump seadra is real and stupid).
yes the issue is primarily dug, no i do not think "well its just dug" makes sense in order to save something like sand attack (sure im big on policy and get that if its just dug, dug "should be" the target but i think this is still somewhat bs especially if we had an unironic discussion on banning hypnosis in the past)
confuse ray is a lot more pertinent since it's not 1 mon and im fine with keeping accuracy lowering on the burner for now/ever rly even if ill seethe over being the one who popularized dug sandattack+sub cheese
btw run sand attack over slash not rs pls
dugtrio actually often can extend its poor bulk further by spamming sub and often end up being rewarded. twave immunity+speed tier is the big reason here.
I don't think that this is the main complaint about Confuse Ray. In many cases it is the best click, which means facing Confuse Ray is more of an inevitability throughout a season than anything. Calls to ban Confuse Ray are the strongest now in UU than ever before in any other lower tier, and it's because the move is genuinely good in this format, and therefore inescapable.
I don't think this is a good metric to determine if something's uncompetitive. If you apply this logic to Confuse Ray, you'd come to the conclusion that Confuse Ray is healthy, actually.
Seconding the idea that an optimal click does not mean a healthy click for the meta, if anything it's your obligation to run the broken/messily competitive stuff to build up links/evidence for it to be banned because it shows more data on why the element is unhealthy.
yes the issue is primarily dug, no i do not think "well its just dug" makes sense in order to save something like sand attack (sure im big on policy and get that if its just dug, dug "should be" the target but i think this is still somewhat bs especially if we had an unironic discussion on banning hypnosis in the past)
I would of course prefer to retain Dugtrio without Sand-Attack over having it banned, think I wrote that above too, but I'm following the policy precedent. If RBY UU is fine with changing that up though I'm all for that, especially because like I said I think Dugtrio does bring some great things to this meta(fast cleaner, t-wave immune, literally the only fast ground we have).
Glad to see that everyone unanimously agrees Confuse Ray should go though
as one of the all time greats of rby uu i feel the need to give my thoughts
1. molt and cuno are good, slowbro is undervalued rn but they still have solid odds to beat bro with good play also because bro often replaces lap
2. confuse ray being the best click doesnt make it not dumb, the reason we banned wrap was because it was always the best click and yet was so rng heavy (rng was always weighted towards the wrap user cuz 85% accuracy)
3. i dont think cray is actually that good on any non tales users but its robbed enough to deserve a look at (and a ban), supersonic is unusable dogshit but we might as well ban it on principle idk idt anyone would miss it
4. rby uu is as rng heavy as ever! :mickey:
5. ill share my full thoughts on the tier at a later date
) hypno.
) common and strong sleepers.
:) the other guys.
) Solid consistent choices
) other twavers with uses.
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