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OU RBY OU Discussion Thread

"If you get a KO with Rhydon I get to deal 15% to your Exeggutor and then switch out" is not the argument for Golem's viability you think it is
If you swap exeggutor is met with a range, it swaps into either body slam, rock slide or earthquake or is out swapped to either my jynx or starmie, or is vs my Chansey.

The difference is if it was golem instead of Rhydon being the main difference in calculus. Golem should cause enough calculatory differences in the opponents ability to understand if that if I didn't use explosion and they thought I could of, is the difference between the offset of why if it that it was a Rhydon instead that it would be easier to estimate what move that the Rhydon player would of made without being more wrong for the difference...despite the damage or 7% defensive buff.
 
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it's also not just those two ranges. more examples:


Golem Earthquake vs. Tauros: 119-141 (33.7 - 39.9%)
Rhydon Earthquake vs. Tauros: 133-157 (37.6 - 44.4%)
for a common example line where this matters,
2 Tauros Body Slams is 53.8 - 63.4%
so if you do the classic bull war Slam Slam and now you're in a hyperbeam mindgame, and you catch the hyperbeam with your Rock:
Golem's odds to kill the Tauros with EQ are abysmal (total roll 87.5-103.3), Rhydon's are nearly 50% (91.4-107.8)

Golem Rock Slide vs. Exeggutor: 97-114 (24.6 - 29%)
Rhydon Rock Slide vs. Exeggutor: 108-127 (27.4 - 32.3%)
chipping golem down takes a while longer - you're also gonna be mixing in bodyslams and earthquakes realistically over several entries, but golem very realistically will need 1 more entry to break it a lot of the time. of course there are infinitely many ways this can play out and it's virtually impossible to come up with a concise example of this damage difference mattering, but just because you can't calculate those scenarios a priori doesn't mean that they won't happen in game.

also the way the numbers line up against Snorlax is comical:
Golem Earthquake vs. Snorlax: 150-177 (28.6 - 33.8%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO
Rhydon Earthquake vs. Snorlax: 169-199 (32.3 - 38%) -- 97.1% chance to 3HKO


The point is not missing any one specific roll, the point is all of these rolls combined, and infinitely many more practical game situations where you will need that extra 5% for one reason or another. It's not going to be a single calc to demonstrate the difference, but rather it's the incalculable number of scenarios that you're not going to be able to draw up while theorymonning, but will very practically happen to you in games. Rhydon is just meaningfully much more efficient at trading in these ways; Golem wants to explode because it's really not good at doing Rhydon's job of EQing things over and over. It CAN try, when the situation is good enough for it, but otherwise just wants to peace out and 1 for 1.

Stats matter a lot, it's not just moves and types. And there's no clear and easy way to explain why and how much each stat matters on each Pokemon, cuz the reason is like 30 different calcs each time. So it's moreso a feel you build from playing and running into all of these scenarios and noticing "wow, I only barely hit that roll, lesser stats would've killed me there". or "wow, I was 1% off, if this mon was stronger I'd have hit it". Over and over and over until you really fine tune yourself to be perceptive to all this stuff.

With Rhydon/Golem specifically, because one of the desired duties is precisely getting to click like 8+ of your EQ PP over a long stretch of turns, punching and punching and punching, the stat differences are amplified. A Rhydon that only clicks 1 EQ before dying probably wishes it were a Golem who clicked Explosion instead. But most Rhydons have ambitions for much more than that, and when that works out as desired, Rhydon is miles better and it's not close
 
The question is whether golems 1% Spd + explosion offsets +20atk and +7% defense of Rhydon...I think it does IMO, although I do regard them as very similar, I don't think they are often regarded to how close they are in actual competitive value, it shouldn't be the difference between A tier and C tier....or whatever they are, whichever one of them is the other should be always within one half letter grade of the other. How do you regard them as more than one half letter grade of each other? Because Rhydon can get some KO's that golem can't should be often offset by the chip damage incurred during the course of most games, because golem and Rhydon should most often be facing things with slight chip damage, and that chip damage isn't calculated when looking at calculator stats .

The grade letter difference between the two should be closer in grade quality.

Such as of one of them is currently B tier, the other should be either B+ thru B- but not more than that...
 
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Stats matter a lot, it's not just moves and types. And there's no clear and easy way to explain why and how much each stat matters on each Pokemon, cuz the reason is like 30 different calcs each time. So it's moreso a feel you build from playing and running into all of these scenarios and noticing "wow, I only barely hit that roll, lesser stats would've killed me there". or "wow, I was 1% off, if this mon was stronger I'd have hit it". Over and over and over until you really fine tune yourself to be perceptive to all this stuff.
This. So few people talk about this when theorymonning, and so many people theorymonning don't even understand that this is where it all starts. This should always be the foundation of your theorymonning. You acquire an embodied understanding of all these scenarios in game, and then you can flesh out this acquired understanding in words and numbers on forums or else where. Attempting to do this process backwards always leads to erroneous thinking.
 
If I went with stats I would use all the legendary birds.
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And D-Nite.
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Actually, I would say
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Moltres is a proof stats don't matter,
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Moltres has 500BST and nearly nothing to show for it.... for a flying/ fire type that I would say
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Moltres is worse than
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Charizard, but it's a hard argument to make based off of those stats ...
 
The question is whether golems 1% Spd + explosion offsets +20atk and +7% defense of Rhydon...I think it does IMO, although I do regard them as very similar, I don't think they are often regarded to how close they are in actual competitive value, it shouldn't be the difference between A tier and C tier....or whatever they are, whichever one of them is the other should be always within one half letter grade of the other. How do you regard them as more than one half letter grade of each other? Because Rhydon can get some KO's that golem can't should be often offset by the chip damage incurred during the course of most games, because golem and Rhydon should most often be facing things with slight chip damage, and that chip damage isn't calculated when looking at calculator stats .

The grade letter difference between the two should be closer in grade quality.

Such as of one of them is currently B tier, the other should be either B+ thru B- but not more than that...
Dude is explosion like the best move in the game for you? You don't NEED a mon with explosion to win in RBY. Even if you did there are other mons that can put the pressure of explosion on mons without having to give up half the reason they are on the team to begin with. Rhydon can just sit there and do damage and live just long enough to put in work while still being a zapdos counter. To get ANY use out of golem that would do more than don you have to

A. Kill zapdos
B. Win another 1v1
C. Explode on a mon

And tbh all that work is just not worth it with this kind of meta, maybe if zapdos wasn't as oppressive as it is now golem could see more use. As of late, however, I just don't see how golem is better than don.
 
Explosion is an S-tier move IMO, right below I guess recover and softboiled, sleep powder, LK, t wave, explosion is right up there near that stuff.

Every single mon that gets explosion uses it for a move slot.

And substitute is this like D-tier move, nearly everything gets substitute yet nothing uses it.

If I grade the moves for each of them.
1.
Earthquake is A+ Tier for Rhydon
Earthquake is A Tier for Golem
2.
Rock Slide is B Tier for Rhydon
rock slide is B- Tier for Golem
3.
Body Slam is C tier for Rhydon
Body Slam is C tier for Golem
4.
Substitute is D Tier for Rhydon
Explosion is A tier for Golem

So the end classroom grade for Rhydon is 95+85+75+65= 320 points
The end classroom grade for Golem is
90+80+75+90=335 points

For the moves anyways
Therefore it would be something like on one side you have
* +7% defense and +7% SpD and +18% dmg output.
and on the other side you have
* +1% crit rate and one move that is like 300% better.

No one's going to argue substitute is better than explosion on average, if Rhydon had explosion it would be standard on it...it's how often 18% more damage and 7% more defense comes into play, vs when that golem explodes it gains back much of this all at once.
 
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So the end classroom grade for Rhydon is 95+85+75+65= 320 points
The end classroom grade for Golem is
90+80+75+90=335 points
My brother in christ Rhydon and Golem are not trying to graduate they are trying to kill each other. These score cards don't actually mean anything. I can make up a score system where Farfetch'd is better than either of these guys, this is not how you evaluate this game
 
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