Only seems to be one mention that I can find of foul play not working properly as a forte but it was never addressed. After some testing, it seems the issue is that it probably uses the target's attack stat as intended, but it ignores the target's stat stage changes to attack, which doesn't happen when using foul play under normal conditions, in which it does account for stat stage changes to the target's attack. Example from testing: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9fortemons-2464042614-gu8i14gyycs8720mgj15km2ouvck99ypw
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The leaders of this forum are April, dhelmise, and Giagantic. The moderators of this forum are Chessking345, KaenSoul, kenn, Ransei, QT, and Tea Guzzler.
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Metagame Fortemons
- Thread starter KaenSoul
- Start date
Body Press, Ancient Power, Circle Throw, and Dragon Tail should be restricted from this metagame.
The argument that "Diancie is the only broken Body Press user" is clearly false, as I have seen Skarmory, Cobalion, Regirock, even Avalugg all be extremely annoying Body Pressers that are difficult to take down. Because all of them are mixed attackers, they are absolutely unwallable and require you to have extremely strong special attackers to defeat.
The argument that "Diancie is the only broken Body Press user" is clearly false, as I have seen Skarmory, Cobalion, Regirock, even Avalugg all be extremely annoying Body Pressers that are difficult to take down. Because all of them are mixed attackers, they are absolutely unwallable and require you to have extremely strong special attackers to defeat.
I like BP, but I agree that the other 3 are unfun to play around
The issue I have with body press is it's basically 3 EVs in 1. It boosts attack, special attack and defense at the same time, and lets mons that aren't special attackers run special attacks because everything gets calced off defense.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9fortemons-2473930465-4qxv8blthgx38b8eoisxmuc4o0qq9umpw
What if your attacks could gain additional effects based on what attack is held in the item slot? Instead of holding an item, you can instead hold an attack, giving all of the attacks in your move-slots the primary and secondary effects of that held move.
Rules:
Mechanic:
An attack put into the item slot will grant its primary and secondary effects to all of the attacks in the move-slots. The regular attack maintains its base power, accuracy, typing, physical or special, and original primary and secondary effects. Status moves cannot be put into the Item-slot, nor will they grant any additional effects in Fortemons. The mechanic will only work with attacks.
For example: Holding Fire Punch grants the properties of being a punching move, makes contact, and has a 10% to burn. Sludge Bomb would be a 90BP Special Attack with a 30% to poison, categorized as a bullet move, and boosted by Sheer Force, as well as the aforementioned effects gained through Fire Punch.
Resources: VR and Move-list in progress
Playability: This format is challengeable
Council:
KaenSoul
Dark Koopatrol
FAQs & Clauses:
How does Swift work? Does it grant 100% accuracy to all attacks?
-Itemized moves do not pass their accuracy on to move-slot moves.
How does Knock Off work?
-Itemized moves cant be knocked off or removed in any way such as Trick or Fling. Knock Off would remain 65BP.
How does move legality work?
-Pokemon can only use moves they have access to in the Item-slot.
Can I itemize a move and also use it as a moveslot?
-No, one or the other.
How do itemized effects stack with move effects?
-It is two separate rolls. If you would roll for a 30% Thunder paralysis and then roll for a 10% Thunderbolt paralysis for a 37% total chance, rather than adding 30+10 and having a 40% chance overall. When it comes to healing, you'll heal once for 50% (assuming Giga Drain) and then once again for 50% (assuming another move like Mega Drain)- so in this particular case, you'll be effectively healing additively for 100% of the damage dealt.
Which order do the primary/secondary effects occur?
- temized effects happen after effects from moves in the move slot. Primary effects will occur before secondary effects for both.
What happens if I stack secondary effects like contact moves in the Item-slot and Move-slot with abilities like Tough Claws or Sheer Force?
-Abilities are only applied once in Fortemons. For example, even if there's a contact move in both the item and the move slot, Tough Claws applies once. The same concept applies to abilities like Triage and Sheer Force.
What would happen if I had Tera Blast in the Item-slot and Terastallized?
-Your move-slot attacks would change to either Special or Physical, as well as their typing accordingly similar to Tera Blast in this scenario.
Does Rage Fist and Last Respects pass its BP boosting?
-Both moves would pass their conditional BP boosts.
Does holding Body Press mean Special Attacks use the Defense stat for damage calculation?
-Yes.
What happens if I put Low Kick of Electro Ball in the Item slot?
- Whatever BP those moves would be, the rest of your attacks would mirror that BP. If your opponent had Steelix out for example, Low Kick would be 120 BP, meaning all of your attacks would become 120 BP. This also applies even if you have something like Hyper Beam, which is 150 BP, since the effect being transferred is the conditional damage based on Speed or weight.
Will High-Crit Ratio stack if I put it in the Item slot?
-Yes, it will be similar to holding a Scope Lens along with all the added flags that attack may have like Slicing.
What happens if I have Weather Ball in the Item slot?
-All of your attacks will change types depending on the Weather currently in play, as well as gain the double damage property if Weather is up.
Is Sheer Force bugged?
-As of right now, we're led to believe that it's working fine when it removes the stat dropping secondary effects from moves like CC, or the recharge effect from moves like Giga Impact. Though we are not entirely sure why Recoil is not removed while those are. We do believe that Sheer Force is working as of right now, and it may be due to the interaction of how Sheer Force removes secondary effects for increased damage now being applied to all moves (even with one possessing secondary effects not applicable to Sheer Force). Recoil seems to be the odd one out in this situation.
How does Rollout work?
-Your first attack will be the move you picked, and then next turn it will lock you into Rollout with the stacks added. If you used a multi-hit, then next turn you will get Rollout with 3 stacks applied.
How does Future Sight work?
-Attacks don't come out 2 turns later with Future Sight in the item slot, but Future Sight in the item slot seems to let you bypass immunity. Based on the coding, this may be intentional.
How does Magic Room work?
-Magic Room will work on regular items but not fortes.
Why isn't Hydro Steam working?
Hydro Steam doesn't have an effect to pass. Instead Sunny Day interacts with it and boosts it as a weather effect. This is not applied to Psyblade and Electric Terrain though.Clauses:
Terastal Clause
Standard OMs
Sleep Moves Mod
Min Source Gen=9
Ban History:
1/17/2023: Houndstone banned and Flinch moves restricted from Item slot.
1/21/2023: Fury Cutter and Flame Charge are restricted from Item slot. Multi-hit moves are unrestricted from Item slot.
1/25/2023: Baton Pass is banned.
1/27/2023: Cloyster is banned.
1/31/2023: Low Kick and Grass Knot are restricted from Item slot.
2/11/2023: Riolu and Serene Grace are banned. Spit Up is restricted from Item slot.
2/27/2023: Moody is banned and Flame Charge is unrestricted from Item slot.
3/1/2023: Shadow Tag and Arena Trap are banned.
3/3/2023: Chien Pao, Espathra, Chi-Yu, Flutter Mane, Iron Bundle, and Weavile are banned. Rapid Spin is unrestricted from the Item slot.
3/8/2023: Great Tusk is banned. Volt Switch, U-Turn, and Reversal are restricted from the Item slot.
3/14/2023: Dragonite, Azumarill, Annihilape, and Beat Up are Banned. Freeze, Flail, and Heavy Slam are restricted. Weavile is unbanned.
3/20/2023: Heat Rock and Damp Rock are banned.
7/2/203: Single Item Clause is implemented.
8/7/2023: U-Turn is unrestricted.
9/14/2023: Dialga-O, Giratina-O, Azumarill are unbanned. Grassy Glide and Heat Crash are restricted. Shaymin-Sky and Darkrai are banned.
9/24/2023: Skeleirge is banned.
12/16/2023: Legendaries ban post DLC release.
12/28/2023: Dragonite and Darkrai are unbanned. Tera banned.
1/1/2024: Smeargle is banned.
1/1/2024: Fake Out is banned.
1/2/2024: Tera Blast is restricted.
1/4/2024: Comfey, Urshifu-Rapid Strike, Meowscarada, and Shed Tail are banned. Weather Ball is restricted.
1/4/2024: Sleep Move Clause is implemented.
1/5/2024: Archuladon is banned.
Banlist & Restrictions:
Abilities:
Serene Grace
Arena Trap
Shadow Tag
Moody
Items:
Damp Rock
Heat Rock
Light Clay
Pokemon:
Annihilape
Arceus
Archaludon
Azumarill
Calyrex-Ice
Calyrex-Shadow
Chi-Yu
Chien-Pao
Cloyster
Comfey
Deoxys-Attack
Deoxys-Neutral
Dialga
Espathra
Eternatus
Flutter Mane
Giratina
Great Tusk
Groudon
Ho-Oh
Iron Bundle
Iron Treads
Koraidon
Kyogre
Kyurem-Black
Kyurem-White
Lugia
Lunala
Magearna
Meowscarada
Mewtwo
Miraidon
Necrozma-Dawn-Wings
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane
Palafin
Palkia
Palkia-Origin
Rayquaza
Reshiram
Samurott-Hisui
Shaymin-Sky
Skeledirge
Smeargle
Sneasler
Solgaleo
Spectrier
Terapagos
Urshifu Single Strike
Zacian
Zacian-Crowned
Zamazenta
Zamazenta-Crowned
Zekrom
Moves:
- Low Kick/Grass Knot/Heat Crash/Heavy Slam/Hard Press/Electro Ball/Gyro Ball (Restricted)
- Fury Cutter (Restricted)
- Stored Power (Restricted)
- Power Trip (Restricted)
- Mud Slap (Restricted)
- Flip Turn (Restricted)
- U-Turn (Restricted)
- Flail (Restricted)
- Future Sight (Restricted/Bugged)
- Doom Desire (Restricted/Bugged)
- Reversal (Restricted)
- Weather Ball (Restricted)
- Beat Up
- Baton Pass
- Shed Tail
At the end of the battle, my Ting Lu's Heavy Slam didn't do damage, but didn't send any reason in chat for why. The Forte is Avalanche.
Avalanche overwrites the damage multiplier, and now your Heavy Slam with 0 Base power gets doubled to 0.
it's the the 1st question in the FAQ, it's just that the move has infinite accuracy, it's not an effect of the move
Ohh I see, thank you. I couldn't find it anywhere in the thread, didn't check the FAQ's
I managed to peak with a variant of my old webs HO team.
Fortemons is a fun meta to play and I'm glad it's back.
Some quick thoughts and first impression, is
legal intentionally? I don't believe the ogerpons were legal last time around, they're not ranked on the vr and I haven't seen any discussion on them. I'm not entirely sure they're broken, but Ogerpon-Heartflame is very, very strong right now. It's very difficult to switch into, with a ton of movepool options. It's usually only one crit or so away from winning you the game. Giratina-O kind of soft counters it, but play rough is always an option. A QB is probably premature, but keep an eye on it.
is a real demon and should get banned. It will absolutely run through your entire team given half a chance. I ran a HO team without it, relying on momentum, pressure, sash and primarina to keep it in check - but it only takes one turn for it to start rolling down your team. I don't think this is particularly healthy. It's a nightmare for all archetypes with taunt to harass stall and fat teams.
should've been banned last time this was OMOTM tbh. It doesn't have any switch ins except Giratina-O - even then it's just a matter of time. It's not as oppressive as Quaguaval, but it usually gets a kill every time it comes in. I've been running four attacks for the extra punching power of the bat and it easily carries its weight. 
/ 
/ 
- charge beam is also problematic. It can get out of hand very quickly. Iron valiant is probably the best users since it has priority and few reliable switch ins, but the others are also very good. Seems like charge beam is the culprit here, not the others. Body press is fine imo, it's fun to play around with. I don't find iron defense corviknight or skarmory that threatning, a strong special attack (lots of choices there) will send them to an early grave no matter how much they set up. Diancie is pretty strong and difficult to switch into, but there's lot of steel types to choose from (iron crown, heatran, lando-i etc) which will always be able to revenge kill it. Sure, if it gets a trick room up and a diamond storm boost its pretty damn strong - but if we're playing up scenarios then a +2 atk +1 speed quag is far scarier imo.
Trick room isnt broken and is still very gimmicky in singles. I faced it a couple of times on the ladder and even with the bad match up (HO vs TR is hard because you cant easily stall out turns) it was still a matter of predicting the outcomes along the way.
Anyone know why my opponent's heavy slam failed? I've never seen anything like this before. Not sure if this is a quirk of the metagame.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9fortemons-2474251908
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9fortemons-2474251908
So Fun fact i've just fallen into a deeper rabbit hole than i should have when teambuilding for this wacky OM, i literally just created this account to talk about it and it has to do with these two sets
Froslass (F) @ Rollout
Ability: Snow Cloak
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Triple Axel
- Poltergeist
- Destiny Bond
- Will-O-Wisp
the description for rollout is that it "doubles in power with every hit and repeats for five turns" wich means that, the second turn that you use poltergeist you would be nuking everyone with a 220 BP STAB move (AND double every turn after) but it also means the multi hit moves double in power after EACH HIT with something like icicle spear or rock blast it would go 25/50/100/200/400 if it hits 5 times or 25/50/100 (3 hits on turn 1) then 200/400/move fails (3 or more hits on turn 2) BUT with triple axel specifically that's when shit hits the fan because triple axel also raises in power after each hit, According to what ive read on other forums and the description for triple axel it should THEORETICALLY go like this:
1st hit is 20 BP as normal then 2nd hit raises its BP to 40 due to triple axel and doubles to 80 due to roll out then 3rd hit goes to 60 due to triple axel and then rollout QUADRUPLES it to 240 giving a total of 340 BP + STAB on TURN ONE, but there's more. you're forced to click triple axel again on turn two and the roll out multiplier its STILL active, so on turn two the first hit its 20x8 for 160BP second hit is 40x16 for 640BP!! and since you used all 5 multipliers the 3rd hit doesn't even come out and the move fails, or at least that is how i THINK it should happen, i havent tested it yet.
the second set is:
Cinccino @ Echoed Voice
Ability: Skill Link
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tail Slap
- Triple Axel
- Tidy Up
- Thunder Wave
Echoed voice also scales but it does so by 40 BP every turn not every hit, wich means it simpler to predict, tail slap + skill link would be 125 BP like normal on turn one then 325 BP turn two adding 200 BP every consecutive turn its used up to 225x5 or 1125 BP after 5 turn, but then again triple axel ruins everything because i have no flippin idea how it interacts with BP increases! is turn 2 triple axel 60/80/100? is it 60/40/60?
is the power increase of triple axel a multiplier that applies on TOP of the 40 bp increase of echoed voice? bc then it would be 60/120/180.
TLDR: triple axel interacts weirdly with power increasing effects and im gonna go test it to either destroy people or get destroyed myself wish me luck
UPDATE people!: it doesnt work :(
but that doesnt mean the interaction is not interesting, first thing i got wrong, itemized rollout doesnt lock you into the move you clicked, but rather locks you into roll out itself, even if you dont have it, you get forced to use rollout until you used all the multipliers or miss, second thing i got wrong. with triple axel it seems that the bp increase of triple axel and roll out dont stack second hit does damage as normal while third hit comes at 80 bp instead of 60, the interaction with 2-5 hit moves does work closer to what i predicted, first turn doubles its damage after each hit but in the second turn you get locked into rollout with its multiplier depending of how many times you hit with the previous move (so if you hit 3 times turn one, your roll out will come at x8 turn 2 and continue as normal) so while not insane its a decent niche
echoed voice however doesnt do anything, it seems or at least i think that the move its programed to apply the bp increase if you used echoed voice itself the previous turn instead of apliying if you use the same move you used last turn, so theoreticaly if you were to somehow use echoed voice while having it equiped (wich its not legal) then the bp increase would apply to next move you use. but it makes sense since fury cutter a different move that does something similar does work as youd expect and hence got banned for being to strong. i would have liked that the rollout interaction worked as i predicted for some sort of hyper powerful band/specs, but it would have been too powerful
Froslass (F) @ Rollout
Ability: Snow Cloak
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Triple Axel
- Poltergeist
- Destiny Bond
- Will-O-Wisp
the description for rollout is that it "doubles in power with every hit and repeats for five turns" wich means that, the second turn that you use poltergeist you would be nuking everyone with a 220 BP STAB move (AND double every turn after) but it also means the multi hit moves double in power after EACH HIT with something like icicle spear or rock blast it would go 25/50/100/200/400 if it hits 5 times or 25/50/100 (3 hits on turn 1) then 200/400/move fails (3 or more hits on turn 2) BUT with triple axel specifically that's when shit hits the fan because triple axel also raises in power after each hit, According to what ive read on other forums and the description for triple axel it should THEORETICALLY go like this:
1st hit is 20 BP as normal then 2nd hit raises its BP to 40 due to triple axel and doubles to 80 due to roll out then 3rd hit goes to 60 due to triple axel and then rollout QUADRUPLES it to 240 giving a total of 340 BP + STAB on TURN ONE, but there's more. you're forced to click triple axel again on turn two and the roll out multiplier its STILL active, so on turn two the first hit its 20x8 for 160BP second hit is 40x16 for 640BP!! and since you used all 5 multipliers the 3rd hit doesn't even come out and the move fails, or at least that is how i THINK it should happen, i havent tested it yet.
the second set is:
Cinccino @ Echoed Voice
Ability: Skill Link
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tail Slap
- Triple Axel
- Tidy Up
- Thunder Wave
Echoed voice also scales but it does so by 40 BP every turn not every hit, wich means it simpler to predict, tail slap + skill link would be 125 BP like normal on turn one then 325 BP turn two adding 200 BP every consecutive turn its used up to 225x5 or 1125 BP after 5 turn, but then again triple axel ruins everything because i have no flippin idea how it interacts with BP increases! is turn 2 triple axel 60/80/100? is it 60/40/60?
is the power increase of triple axel a multiplier that applies on TOP of the 40 bp increase of echoed voice? bc then it would be 60/120/180.
TLDR: triple axel interacts weirdly with power increasing effects and im gonna go test it to either destroy people or get destroyed myself wish me luck
UPDATE people!: it doesnt work :(
but that doesnt mean the interaction is not interesting, first thing i got wrong, itemized rollout doesnt lock you into the move you clicked, but rather locks you into roll out itself, even if you dont have it, you get forced to use rollout until you used all the multipliers or miss, second thing i got wrong. with triple axel it seems that the bp increase of triple axel and roll out dont stack second hit does damage as normal while third hit comes at 80 bp instead of 60, the interaction with 2-5 hit moves does work closer to what i predicted, first turn doubles its damage after each hit but in the second turn you get locked into rollout with its multiplier depending of how many times you hit with the previous move (so if you hit 3 times turn one, your roll out will come at x8 turn 2 and continue as normal) so while not insane its a decent niche
echoed voice however doesnt do anything, it seems or at least i think that the move its programed to apply the bp increase if you used echoed voice itself the previous turn instead of apliying if you use the same move you used last turn, so theoreticaly if you were to somehow use echoed voice while having it equiped (wich its not legal) then the bp increase would apply to next move you use. but it makes sense since fury cutter a different move that does something similar does work as youd expect and hence got banned for being to strong. i would have liked that the rollout interaction worked as i predicted for some sort of hyper powerful band/specs, but it would have been too powerful
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This is team I've had the most success on, Arcanine-Hisui is an insane revenge killer with retaliate e-speed, and with decent speed can also threaten to one-shot almost anything that get's hit by a retaliate head-smash.
Milotic with avalanche is a really strong special tank with about 400 spdef and 400 hp, and avalanche makes it so that, you have negative prio switch outs and also double damage scald and ice beam.
And the Palossand set I thought would just be a bit of fun, but actually walls so much and deals so much damage over time when toxic spikes are down as well, and with protect and shore up it can survive until a lot of targets are dead.
The rest of the mons I feel are pretty standard so won't go into detail.
Misha (Milotic) (F) @ avalanche
Ability: Competitive
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Recover
- Scald
- Flip Turn
- Ice Beam
Salti (Garganacl) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Stealth Rock
- Recover
- Salt Cure
Rai (Arcanine-Hisui) (M) @ retaliate
Ability: Rock Head
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Flare Blitz
- Head Smash
- Wild Charge
Mint (Latios) @ chargebeam
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Scale Shot
- Psyshock
- Aura Sphere
- Dragon Pulse
Tania (Palossand) (F) @ sandtomb
Ability: Water Compaction
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shore Up
- Protect
- Earth Power
- Shadow Ball
Doof (Forretress) (M) @ rapidspin
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Body Press
- Volt Switch
- Toxic Spikes
- Thunder Wave
Milotic with avalanche is a really strong special tank with about 400 spdef and 400 hp, and avalanche makes it so that, you have negative prio switch outs and also double damage scald and ice beam.
And the Palossand set I thought would just be a bit of fun, but actually walls so much and deals so much damage over time when toxic spikes are down as well, and with protect and shore up it can survive until a lot of targets are dead.
The rest of the mons I feel are pretty standard so won't go into detail.
Misha (Milotic) (F) @ avalanche
Ability: Competitive
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Recover
- Scald
- Flip Turn
- Ice Beam
Salti (Garganacl) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Stealth Rock
- Recover
- Salt Cure
Rai (Arcanine-Hisui) (M) @ retaliate
Ability: Rock Head
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Flare Blitz
- Head Smash
- Wild Charge
Mint (Latios) @ chargebeam
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Scale Shot
- Psyshock
- Aura Sphere
- Dragon Pulse
Tania (Palossand) (F) @ sandtomb
Ability: Water Compaction
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shore Up
- Protect
- Earth Power
- Shadow Ball
Doof (Forretress) (M) @ rapidspin
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Body Press
- Volt Switch
- Toxic Spikes
- Thunder Wave
I don’t understand how you label Body Press as fine and balanced while Charge Beam is absolutely broken. The list of Steel types you provide for counterplay still take significant from Diancie (also Landorus-I isn’t a Steel type). You mention that a “strong special attack” can easily take them out, but exactly what special attack is doing this and what opponent is going to be leaving their Body Presser into a special attacker?
Body press is fine imo, it's fun to play around with. I don't find iron defense corviknight or skarmory that threatning, a strong special attack (lots of choices there) will send them to an early grave no matter how much they set up. Diancie is pretty strong and difficult to switch into, but there's lot of steel types to choose from (iron crown, heatran, lando-i etc) which will always be able to revenge kill it. Sure, if it gets a trick room up and a diamond storm boost its pretty damn strong - but if we're playing up scenarios then a +2 atk +1 speed quag is far scarier imo.
252+ Atk Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 84 HP / 0 Def Iron Crown: 99-117 (28.9 - 34.2%) -- 3.6% chance to 3HKO
Quaquaval being potentially broken is not relevant to Body Press.
Body Press is literally more banworthy than Charge Beam since you don’t even need to attack in order to have extremely powerful physical or special moves. In addition, the best Charge Beam users are all very predictable, unlike Body Press, which has Diancie, Skarmory, Corviknight, Cobalion, Avalugg, Torkoal, Regirock, Registeel, etc. Body Press is not as easily countered nor fun to face as you claim. Sweeping teams with Body Pressers is far too easy.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9fortemons-2474006853?p2
The only real Charge Beam users are Iron Valiant, Darkrai, Latios, and Iron Moth (can use Acid Spray).
puerta720 Triple Axel fails with Rollout since the multipliers override each other. It would just be a 140 BP Triple Axel. Echoed Voice also fails in general.
From a few casual matches of this OM and a lot of discussions with friends so far, I believe that there are more than a few things that could be a benefit to the format if they got the boot. There has already been talks of people wanting to take action against Body Press and phasing moves, so I will stick to what I personally feel may be worth looking at in the future.
While I believe Volt Switch forte is fine if not a bit obnoxious,
is far and away the best abuser of this. Volt Switch forte allows it to pretty easily take advantage of defensive switches that would normally attempt to take it on by slamming said mons with DPulse/Draco Meteor. If you're willing to burn a moveslot on it, you can even use moves with no existing overlap with Electric/Dragon or zero immunities altogether like Hyper Voice or Snarl to entirely avoid 50/50 situations where the opponent can either switch to a Ground or Fairy, all while still ensuring the mon attempting to stop it is left at some disadvantage as Bolt switches out. This is also not mentioning how Thunderclap paired with this can gain free momentum for the Bolt user while punishing attackers for doing the one thing they're supposed to be doing in the first place.
Small side tangent incoming, regardless of how gimmicky
and as an extension Electric Terrain may be, Rising Voltage forte has to be a crime somewhere thanks to the sheer numbers it can put out with all of its moves being doubled in BP then boosted again by Eterrain. I seriously do not think that Bolt should be able to wield a basic STAB move and a Sucker Punch clone that are both comfortably stronger than regular Draco Meteor, and Draco Meteor having 10 less BP than Explosion, so long as Eterrain stays up.
, and/or Rapid Spin forte may need to be looked at as well. While Spin forte alone may not be broken, it's definitely given these two above others the ability to become threats that are extremely hard to stop once given the chance, and especially so with Excadrill when some games can essentially be decided on the spot thanks to a convenient Iron Head flinch. Even if these two don't get the opportunity to sweep on their own, getting an attack off at the very least still allows you to get great value out of them by getting hazards off and automatically making life easier for the rest of your team.
I understand that with fortes running around the average power level is high enough that some ubers can reasonably be allowed in, but what the hell are, 
and 
doing here lmao
(edited a bit for clarity)
While I believe Volt Switch forte is fine if not a bit obnoxious,
is far and away the best abuser of this. Volt Switch forte allows it to pretty easily take advantage of defensive switches that would normally attempt to take it on by slamming said mons with DPulse/Draco Meteor. If you're willing to burn a moveslot on it, you can even use moves with no existing overlap with Electric/Dragon or zero immunities altogether like Hyper Voice or Snarl to entirely avoid 50/50 situations where the opponent can either switch to a Ground or Fairy, all while still ensuring the mon attempting to stop it is left at some disadvantage as Bolt switches out. This is also not mentioning how Thunderclap paired with this can gain free momentum for the Bolt user while punishing attackers for doing the one thing they're supposed to be doing in the first place.Small side tangent incoming, regardless of how gimmicky
and as an extension Electric Terrain may be, Rising Voltage forte has to be a crime somewhere thanks to the sheer numbers it can put out with all of its moves being doubled in BP then boosted again by Eterrain. I seriously do not think that Bolt should be able to wield a basic STAB move and a Sucker Punch clone that are both comfortably stronger than regular Draco Meteor, and Draco Meteor having 10 less BP than Explosion, so long as Eterrain stays up., and/or Rapid Spin forte may need to be looked at as well. While Spin forte alone may not be broken, it's definitely given these two above others the ability to become threats that are extremely hard to stop once given the chance, and especially so with Excadrill when some games can essentially be decided on the spot thanks to a convenient Iron Head flinch. Even if these two don't get the opportunity to sweep on their own, getting an attack off at the very least still allows you to get great value out of them by getting hazards off and automatically making life easier for the rest of your team.I understand that with fortes running around the average power level is high enough that some ubers can reasonably be allowed in, but what the hell are
, and doing here lmao(edited a bit for clarity)
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I will soon post a survey to gather information on any elements that seems troublesome in the format, priority will be on abusers, but also on anything not in the forte slot to preserve the identity of the format the most we can. So please complain now about anything you want in the survey. I'm also looking for council people to not have to turn the survey into a pseudo vote.
In the meantime, I will be banning Metronome (the move) as it was allowing mons to attack with negative priority moves (phazing) while ignoring that priority drop. The moves doesn't really have any healthy competitive use, so we can forget about it.
In the meantime, I will be banning Metronome (the move) as it was allowing mons to attack with negative priority moves (phazing) while ignoring that priority drop. The moves doesn't really have any healthy competitive use, so we can forget about it.
echoed voice doesn't work because I think it requires you to click the move echoed voice for it to scale upSo Fun fact i've just fallen into a deeper rabbit hole than i should have when teambuilding for this wacky OM, i literally just created this account to talk about it and it has to do with these two sets
Froslass (F) @ Rollout
Ability: Snow Cloak
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Triple Axel
- Poltergeist
- Destiny Bond
- Will-O-Wisp
the description for rollout is that it "doubles in power with every hit and repeats for five turns" wich means that, the second turn that you use poltergeist you would be nuking everyone with a 220 BP STAB move (AND double every turn after) but it also means the multi hit moves double in power after EACH HIT with something like icicle spear or rock blast it would go 25/50/100/200/400 if it hits 5 times or 25/50/100 (3 hits on turn 1) then 200/400/move fails (3 or more hits on turn 2) BUT with triple axel specifically that's when shit hits the fan because triple axel also raises in power after each hit, According to what ive read on other forums and the description for triple axel it should THEORETICALLY go like this:
1st hit is 20 BP as normal then 2nd hit raises its BP to 40 due to triple axel and doubles to 80 due to roll out then 3rd hit goes to 60 due to triple axel and then rollout QUADRUPLES it to 240 giving a total of 340 BP + STAB on TURN ONE, but there's more. you're forced to click triple axel again on turn two and the roll out multiplier its STILL active, so on turn two the first hit its 20x8 for 160BP second hit is 40x16 for 640BP!! and since you used all 5 multipliers the 3rd hit doesn't even come out and the move fails, or at least that is how i THINK it should happen, i havent tested it yet.
the second set is:
Cinccino @ Echoed Voice
Ability: Skill Link
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tail Slap
- Triple Axel
- Tidy Up
- Thunder Wave
Echoed voice also scales but it does so by 40 BP every turn not every hit, wich means it simpler to predict, tail slap + skill link would be 125 BP like normal on turn one then 325 BP turn two adding 200 BP every consecutive turn its used up to 225x5 or 1125 BP after 5 turn, but then again triple axel ruins everything because i have no flippin idea how it interacts with BP increases! is turn 2 triple axel 60/80/100? is it 60/40/60?
is the power increase of triple axel a multiplier that applies on TOP of the 40 bp increase of echoed voice? bc then it would be 60/120/180.
TLDR: triple axel interacts weirdly with power increasing effects and im gonna go test it to either destroy people or get destroyed myself wish me luck
UPDATE people!: it doesnt work :(
but that doesnt mean the interaction is not interesting, first thing i got wrong, itemized rollout doesnt lock you into the move you clicked, but rather locks you into roll out itself, even if you dont have it, you get forced to use rollout until you used all the multipliers or miss, second thing i got wrong. with triple axel it seems that the bp increase of triple axel and roll out dont stack second hit does damage as normal while third hit comes at 80 bp instead of 60, the interaction with 2-5 hit moves does work closer to what i predicted, first turn doubles its damage after each hit but in the second turn you get locked into rollout with its multiplier depending of how many times you hit with the previous move (so if you hit 3 times turn one, your roll out will come at x8 turn 2 and continue as normal) so while not insane its a decent niche
echoed voice however doesnt do anything, it seems or at least i think that the move its programed to apply the bp increase if you used echoed voice itself the previous turn instead of apliying if you use the same move you used last turn, so theoreticaly if you were to somehow use echoed voice while having it equiped (wich its not legal) then the bp increase would apply to next move you use. but it makes sense since fury cutter a different move that does something similar does work as youd expect and hence got banned for being to strong. i would have liked that the rollout interaction worked as i predicted for some sort of hyper powerful band/specs, but it would have been too powerful
After around 70 games going as high at 1400, and then back down to 1100, and back up to 1300, I'm gonna throw in some that I think are problem children:
Body Press is a problem, and I dont understand those who think it isnt. The problem I'm seeing is a lot of people run ID, and just run Drill Peck to avoid recoil, not remembering that it enables you to be mixed. ID Air Slash + Iron Head on both of those birds hits HARD, and has a 30% flinch chance while being one of the biggest physical walls in the game after 1 ID. Some of the things that CAN take them on, cannot switch in. Volcarona, Regieleki and Iron Moth can beat them, but take a STAGGERING amount of damage just to switch in, and then they just swap out. Only Raging Bolt really doesnt care about these two, and I've been exclusively running Bolt just to avoid the birds.
Speaking of Raging Bolt, Volt Switch is so unbelievably annoying. Especially on Regieleki who, unlike Raging Bolt, doesnt get punished much for a wrong prediction. You swap in your ground type on Regieleki? Sure! Hyper Beam incoming and it outspeeds you ready to swap out. Not downplaying Raging Bolt tho, Modest Draco Meteors acting like Volt Switch are insane, while also having access to Hyper Beams of its own, but I've been running Snarl to nerf things like Glowking to make them easier to beat down.
Allowing a pokemon to clear all hazards, go +1 speed, and deal massive damage at the same time is insane. Quaquaval having Moxie is the cherry on top, but it also allows Excadrill to free up the 4th move slot to run a rock move to murder flying types. With Tusk and Treads already gone specifically because of this move, I think its more worth looking at Rapid Spin itself instead of banning the duck and drill.
Having faced InkyDarkBird on ladder when he used this thing, why is it allowed here? I get it can't use its item slot, whoop-de-doo its DIALGA-ORIGIN. 150 Sp.A with a 100-120-120 defensive spread and a fantastic Dragon/Steel Typing. Its speed isn't even that bad at 90. Access to rocks to be a setter. Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Ice Beam, it can even use ID-Press if you really wanted to. This thing was a bad idea.
Sheer Force Giga Impact + Earthquake. That's the post. This is one of those that I dont think is broken now, but once bans roll out for the others, (especially Body Press), it will become a much bigger problem.
Charge Beam is a little scary, and I do see the point some people are making that its a bit much, and I'm putting it in the same category as Lando-I that I don't think its banworthy now, but given a few bans it might get a bit better.
* Now for some picks that I think are just really cool in this meta:
Scarf Darkrai is genuinely good. Having something that reliably outspeeds and kills pult is awesome. Will-O-Wisp is a great sleeper move pick for it as you can surprise physical sweepers and nerf them before swapping out. Dark Pulse + Ice Beam + Sludge Bomb is so strong I dont think it really needs Charge Beam to function, and it loves the extra speed. I think it will become even better once Volt Switch is gone as Regieleki will fall in usage and it will essentially be the fastest mon around.
Specifically in this Quaquaval and Regieleki infested nightmare, having access to Grassy Terrain boosted Giga Draining Grassy Glides is really reliable for taking the frail attackers down. Wood Hammer having its recoil completely negated by Giga Drain heal is incredible for Rillabooms longevity, and it has access to High Horsepower for Iron Moths who think about switching in. Not an A tier mon, but a solid pick I've been liking.
Trailblaze Ursaluna gets out of hand SO fast. The fact that it hard counters OU's favorite specially defensive pivot Glowking, and uses it for setup is incredible. Once Bloodmoon gets into the 300s and starts outspeeding Moth and Duck its pretty much over. Still managable for now, but I think it could become broken given some bans.
Body Press is a problem, and I dont understand those who think it isnt. The problem I'm seeing is a lot of people run ID, and just run Drill Peck to avoid recoil, not remembering that it enables you to be mixed. ID Air Slash + Iron Head on both of those birds hits HARD, and has a 30% flinch chance while being one of the biggest physical walls in the game after 1 ID. Some of the things that CAN take them on, cannot switch in. Volcarona, Regieleki and Iron Moth can beat them, but take a STAGGERING amount of damage just to switch in, and then they just swap out. Only Raging Bolt really doesnt care about these two, and I've been exclusively running Bolt just to avoid the birds.
Speaking of Raging Bolt, Volt Switch is so unbelievably annoying. Especially on Regieleki who, unlike Raging Bolt, doesnt get punished much for a wrong prediction. You swap in your ground type on Regieleki? Sure! Hyper Beam incoming and it outspeeds you ready to swap out. Not downplaying Raging Bolt tho, Modest Draco Meteors acting like Volt Switch are insane, while also having access to Hyper Beams of its own, but I've been running Snarl to nerf things like Glowking to make them easier to beat down.
Allowing a pokemon to clear all hazards, go +1 speed, and deal massive damage at the same time is insane. Quaquaval having Moxie is the cherry on top, but it also allows Excadrill to free up the 4th move slot to run a rock move to murder flying types. With Tusk and Treads already gone specifically because of this move, I think its more worth looking at Rapid Spin itself instead of banning the duck and drill.
Having faced InkyDarkBird on ladder when he used this thing, why is it allowed here? I get it can't use its item slot, whoop-de-doo its DIALGA-ORIGIN. 150 Sp.A with a 100-120-120 defensive spread and a fantastic Dragon/Steel Typing. Its speed isn't even that bad at 90. Access to rocks to be a setter. Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Ice Beam, it can even use ID-Press if you really wanted to. This thing was a bad idea.
Sheer Force Giga Impact + Earthquake. That's the post. This is one of those that I dont think is broken now, but once bans roll out for the others, (especially Body Press), it will become a much bigger problem.
Charge Beam is a little scary, and I do see the point some people are making that its a bit much, and I'm putting it in the same category as Lando-I that I don't think its banworthy now, but given a few bans it might get a bit better.
* Now for some picks that I think are just really cool in this meta:
Scarf Darkrai is genuinely good. Having something that reliably outspeeds and kills pult is awesome. Will-O-Wisp is a great sleeper move pick for it as you can surprise physical sweepers and nerf them before swapping out. Dark Pulse + Ice Beam + Sludge Bomb is so strong I dont think it really needs Charge Beam to function, and it loves the extra speed. I think it will become even better once Volt Switch is gone as Regieleki will fall in usage and it will essentially be the fastest mon around.
Specifically in this Quaquaval and Regieleki infested nightmare, having access to Grassy Terrain boosted Giga Draining Grassy Glides is really reliable for taking the frail attackers down. Wood Hammer having its recoil completely negated by Giga Drain heal is incredible for Rillabooms longevity, and it has access to High Horsepower for Iron Moths who think about switching in. Not an A tier mon, but a solid pick I've been liking.
Trailblaze Ursaluna gets out of hand SO fast. The fact that it hard counters OU's favorite specially defensive pivot Glowking, and uses it for setup is incredible. Once Bloodmoon gets into the 300s and starts outspeeding Moth and Duck its pretty much over. Still managable for now, but I think it could become broken given some bans.
Rollout should be restricted and Beat Up should be unbanned and restricted. There is no reason that Beat Up should be banned in its current state, meanwhile Rollout has already proven to be uncompetitive/broken by causing Smeargle to be banned. Beat Up offers many more competitive strategies than Rollout.
If Assurance + Beat Up becomes too powerful, then Weavile should be banned.
If you are scared of Beat Up + speed forte, then the only real users are Farigiraf and Scrafty, neither of which have any usage right now. The other Beat Up users either have a multihit move that can easily substitute for Beat Up (Shiftry Bullet Seed) or are too fast to benefit majorly from Beat Up + speed forte (Passimian, Primeape, Houndoom, Maushold)
If Assurance + Beat Up becomes too powerful, then Weavile should be banned.
If you are scared of Beat Up + speed forte, then the only real users are Farigiraf and Scrafty, neither of which have any usage right now. The other Beat Up users either have a multihit move that can easily substitute for Beat Up (Shiftry Bullet Seed) or are too fast to benefit majorly from Beat Up + speed forte (Passimian, Primeape, Houndoom, Maushold)
I gave it some thought, and I agree. Rest in peace rollout taxel ASandslash tho :(
does it stack
yes axel is 20-40-80. If you hit all 3, it is followed by a Rollout of 240 BP, then 480 BP - ends there.
I have a question, if I give G-Slowbro Shell Side Arm as the item, does it automatically turn my moves into physical or special moves depending on which is higher like Shell Side Arm? For example, if I give G-Slowbro Shell Side Arm as an item on a Belly Drum set, does Psychic become a physical move?
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9fortemons-2476165053 (Typhlosion doing increased damage at the end is because of Blaze)
The pledge moves and Hex (and Venoshock and Barb Barrage probably) override Water Spout and Eruption. This is probably not a bug, although it still supports extremely uncompetitive strategies like Paraspam and can be ridiculously powerful with setup.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9fortemons-2476159315
The pledge moves and Hex (and Venoshock and Barb Barrage probably) override Water Spout and Eruption. This is probably not a bug, although it still supports extremely uncompetitive strategies like Paraspam and can be ridiculously powerful with setup.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9fortemons-2476159315
First of all, I agree with a lot of the points you and Endrism make here. BP is very strong. I guess in the end I wouldn't be terrible sad to see it go. We will see what the survey results are. I get what you're saying here.
I think the big difference between charge beam (CB) and Body press (BP) is in the ease-of-use and speed. The best CB users (valiant, moth and darkrai) are very fast and difficult to revenge kill. It's not impossible, but they're harder to RK than BP users - which are usually slow and bulky. Of course, their bulk means they can usually live a neutral hit or two, but super effective hits (especially by special attackers) are still effective. Diancie, which can run Trick Room, is a complicated factor of course, and Cobalion is quite fast. But, for example, Landorus-I or Iron Moth can revenge kill most of the BP users between the two of them. There are other options as well, I won’t name them all.
Have you tried using Zapdos? Sp.def Zapdos is a great counter to both of the birds and landorus-i (special variants). With Static you also have a chance to para no matter what they use. It doesn't need a fortemon either, HDB works just fine.
I'm pretty sure it doesn't work with Venoshock. Anyways, outside of Typhlosion-Hisui there aren't a whole lot of pokemon that are good at abusing this. The replay you showed versus Gimlaf looks to be a mix between a bad match up for you and some unlucky paras more so than anything else. Imo Typhlosion seems like cool tech. Gimlaf builds around it, supporting it with hazard removal and paralysis, mitigating its low speed and SR weakness.