Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [ survey results -- see post 21,221 ]

[Rekka's Backend]

I don't know what's this obsession with wanting rain to be good. I'd go as far as to say rain being doghsit is good a thing (ig this is where I thank woger dnite gambit etc for killing rain)

i want to just make clear for the record my statement wasn't about hoping for rain to be good either. i legit do not give a shit about weather (i love sand only because TTar is cool) so it was more 'even outside the usual sprouted reasons for its banning', my issues with Woger stem solely from the fact that I find it to be an obxious mon that feels infinitely unfun to play against vs many others. Even if I hate Kyu due to freeze cheese or subtect, I'd sooner have to spam a thousanding Gambit Suckerpunchs to make it fuck off than have to deal with Woger's suitcase of annoyances.

As time has gone on I have advocated for a certain number of bans--But as I have played the tier for longer and explored its dynamics (I usually hover around 1700 when im not shitting up 1500 due to my improv team building lmao) I find Woger to be the one piece that frustrates me deeply. Ivy Crits, Encore or Playrough predictions, hell even the annoying healing bulky variants, all of them require different answers or team building repercussions for answering them.

That's before the basic nature of "click swords dance and immediately threaten the poor sod coming in" dilemma. It's the entire reason I run Grass Mandibuzz as a catch all for when I'm well and truly going "fuck this mon in particular." Or you know, Zama. But Mandibuzz has more soul.

 

[ScribeofRevocis]

Imo woger is NOT broken; no way in hell bulky teams can't fit something faster (because almost anything faster just beats it) or a hydrapple/fatnite (these two being some of the most reliable woger checks ever)
Offense also just kinda beats woger every time anything faster in this current meta will just straight up ohko it.

Woger is kind of like kyurem but you can actually check it reliably and its not nearly as unpredictable. 90% of wogers are ivy cudgle, grass stab, sd, filler (encore or playrough)

Oh and finally, it can't hold boots, so hazard chip is easy af to stack on this thing.

If you play around wogerpon right it's not the most annoying matchup. Unless you have alo, then I guess I get why you'd hate it so much.

Speaking of alo, this Mon is honestly kind of toxic in some ways, and in some ways not. It walls so much of the metagame by just existing it you run AV, then just lets you pivot around kinda easily.
BUT it's honestly not the biggest problem ever. A well made switch or pivot into the mola can let you js use it as setup bait alot of the times, or just take advantage of the fact that it's the most passive mom in existence. Alo is also really good for bo/balance teams in general. Not ban worthy at all imo.

 

[Finchinator]

This is probably a lame take, but I do not personally feel the desire to ban anything from OU right now. After playing OU around the clock for 2-3 months for SCL, I spent the last week or two away, reflected a bit, and really do not think much stands out. The few things that stand out I do not think are worthy of a ban right now either. Please note I am not going to step in the way of any suspects that go garner sufficient support in the coming weeks, but this just represents my individual opinion on some hot-button topics in the tier.

Kingambit is actually the closest Pokemon to broken for me, but Dragonite, which is almost certainly the conventional pick, is a close second. I also will give my thoughts on Tera Blast, Light Clay, and Ogerpon-Wellspring, for whatever that is worth.

Regarding Kingambit, it’s just doing the same thing as always, but a tad less often due to role crowding. You’re still able to stop it with timely status or Encore later in games, Pokemon like Dondozo or 200 Iron Press Corviknight cover the majority of variants on bulkier teams, and offense that is properly constructed can suffocate it. I still find Kingambit to mandate resource preservation in order to assure you beat it. There are few actual hard checks/counters, and almost all of them end up losing to the wrong Tera Fairy/Ghost or Fire honestly. I’m not sure this makes it broken, I don’t think I would vote ban, and I do not see a world where it actually gets banned this late in the game, which is fine, but there’s a strain there.

Dragonite is easily the most controversial Pokemon in OU right now. It got ok survey support and people have spoken out about it a lot. Personally, I don’t find it broken and think the most devastating variants — Tera Blast Fly — have become a bit more predictable on certain structures and also a bit less common outright. What really makes things tricky is the lack in overlap between the different variants, so you’re trying to preserve counterplay to multiple different potential avenues. I do not find this strain to be too much since most variants individually have a lot of checks or counters, but I at least understand why people have gripes with the Pokemon given this practical range.

Tera Blast is the lifeblood of a lot of dynamic sweepers, permitting Dragonite or DD Kyurem to hit otherwise unrecognized peaks. I do not find the premise of Tera Blast problematic and I do not think enough users are broken (past or present) to warrant action on the move personally, but there are admittedly a lot of people who feel differently when going through the full applications of the move.

Light Clay and screens actually received some complaints recently. I personally think it’s playable and screens can be covered well enough. You don’t need Unaware or Court Change to combat these teams necessarily even, but they can surely help. I don’t find screens to be needing tiering action.

Wellspring I just find to be the face of “great Pokemon that pushes limits, but isn’t overpowered or broken” right now. Will definitely be grouped with any survey or included in any discussion, but not a priority for me personally.

 

[ScribeofRevocis]

Gambit is definitely not banworthy imo, there's a lot of checks to Gambit that are kinda just in the meta rn, such as almost any fighting type, moltres, most fairies, and the occasional encore/random substitute.
I never considered it broken tbf

 

[RightOnTime]

This is probably a lame take, but I do not personally feel the desire to ban anything from OU right now. After playing OU around the clock for 2-3 months for SCL, I spent the last week or two away, reflected a bit, and really do not think much stands out. The few things that stand out I do not think are worthy of a ban right now either. Please note I am not going to step in the way of any suspects that go garner sufficient support in the coming weeks, but this just represents my individual opinion on some hot-button topics in the tier.

Kingambit is actually the closest Pokemon to broken for me, but Dragonite, which is almost certainly the conventional pick, is a close second. I also will give my thoughts on Tera Blast, Light Clay, and Ogerpon-Wellspring, for whatever that is worth.

Regarding Kingambit, it’s just doing the same thing as always, but a tad less often due to role crowding. You’re still able to stop it with timely status or Encore later in games, Pokemon like Dondozo or 200 Iron Press Corviknight cover the majority of variants on bulkier teams, and offense that is properly constructed can suffocate it. I still find Kingambit to mandate resource preservation in order to assure you beat it. There are few actual hard checks/counters, and almost all of them end up losing to the wrong Tera Fairy/Ghost or Fire honestly. I’m not sure this makes it broken, I don’t think I would vote ban, and I do not see a world where it actually gets banned this late in the game, which is fine, but there’s a strain there.

Dragonite is easily the most controversial Pokemon in OU right now. It got ok survey support and people have spoken out about it a lot. Personally, I don’t find it broken and think the most devastating variants — Tera Blast Fly — have become a bit more predictable on certain structures and also a bit less common outright. What really makes things tricky is the lack in overlap between the different variants, so you’re trying to preserve counterplay to multiple different potential avenues. I do not find this strain to be too much since most variants individually have a lot of checks or counters, but I at least understand why people have gripes with the Pokemon given this practical range.

Tera Blast is the lifeblood of a lot of dynamic sweepers, permitting Dragonite or DD Kyurem to hit otherwise unrecognized peaks. I do not find the premise of Tera Blast problematic and I do not think enough users are broken (past or present) to warrant action on the move personally, but there are admittedly a lot of people who feel differently when going through the full applications of the move.

Light Clay and screens actually received some complaints recently. I personally think it’s playable and screens can be covered well enough. You don’t need Unaware or Court Change to combat these teams necessarily even, but they can surely help. I don’t find screens to be needing tiering action.

Wellspring I just find to be the face of “great Pokemon that pushes limits, but isn’t overpowered or broken” right now. Will definitely be grouped with any survey or included in any discussion, but not a priority for me personally.

I agree with your analysis, the only thing I will say is that all of these things are inextricable screens, Dragonite, Kyurem, Tera blast, Gambit, and Oger all are aiding HO or offensive play styles which make it feel really oppressive. Building to handle all of those threats at once feels a bit overwhelming and people typical don’t have concrete answers besides “sequence” or “get hazards up.” Sort of a bummer that there’s no changes for the rest of the gen, but understandable.

 

[Avira]

I agree with your analysis, the only thing I will say is that all of these things are inextricable screens, Dragonite, Kyurem, Tera blast, Gambit, and Oger all are aiding HO or offensive play styles which make it feel really oppressive. Building to handle all of those threats at once feels a bit overwhelming and people typical don’t have concrete answers besides “sequence” or “get hazards up.” Sort of a bummer that there’s no changes for the rest of the gen, but understandable.

Finchinator didn't say there'd be no changes for the rest of the generation, just that he doesn't think there's anything banworthy in the meta but would allow a suspect test depending on whether the qualified demographic of survey takers score something at 3.5 or above (This part is implied based on past statements. Dragonite had a 3.44 on the last OU Tiering Survey, and Finchinator said that Dragonite was close to getting a suspect and previously stated that 3.5 is automatic suspect territory provided no other mon had a higher score than that, and it isn't a score for something previously tested already). Dragonite is the only thing I can maybe see getting a suspect test as support for it getting banned has been growing over time. Whether we have reached critical mass for a suspect test to happen is what we will see with the upcoming survey.

 

[Magcargo]

I agree with your analysis, the only thing I will say is that all of these things are inextricable screens, Dragonite, Kyurem, Tera blast, Gambit, and Oger all are aiding HO or offensive play styles which make it feel really oppressive. Building to handle all of those threats at once feels a bit overwhelming and people typical don’t have concrete answers besides “sequence” or “get hazards up.” Sort of a bummer that there’s no changes for the rest of the gen, but understandable.

Aren't a lot of these mons like Dragonite & Gambit really good into offense because of their strong priority? Most HO or bulky offense teams I've seen struggle with Dnite esp because their defensive backbone against it can be a bit fake. I'd imagine dealing with Sun, TR or Webs would be harder if they were banned.

 

[RightOnTime]

Aren't a lot of these mons like Dragonite & Gambit really good into offense because of their strong priority? Most HO or bulky offense teams I've seen struggle with Dnite esp because their defensive backbone against it can be a bit fake. I'd imagine dealing with Sun, TR or Webs would be harder if they were banned.

Good point. Dnite and Gambit are sort of flexible any way you cut it. I don’t think either are broken, but I do think the meta advantages HO/offense more than bulkier playstyles right now.

 

[cat111ca]

Can we talk about ? Like. How does it rise but not hydraplle or sinistcha?

 

[Hon07rial]

Can we talk about ? Like. How does it rise but not hydraplle or sinistcha?

There is a triple weather team spammed by a bot on ladder that massively inflated its usage.

Torkoal recently hit 4.54% usage on the OU ladder for November. 56% of these Torkoal were ran on a single team spammed by a bot on the OU ladder. Excadrill hit 6.68% usage, with 38% of the usage coming from this same bot. If trends continue, two mons that would otherwise get about 2% and 4.1% usage respectively will end up rising to OU not off of real people, but off of a bot using a gimmick triple weather team.

 

[Finchinator]

Sand got better over the last few months regardless of the bot. We saw a number of Tar Drill uses in SCL, for example.

 

[cat111ca]

Shouldn't we do something about bots? But what could we do? I think usage should be determined by different teams used on ladder and not amount of use (using the exect same team doesn't add to usage)

 

[UltraSword]

There is a triple weather team spammed by a bot on ladder that massively inflated its usage.

In my opinion, if there is a bot that is inflating the usage of certain pokemon then the usage by that bot should not count. Is it really fair to let Excadrill rise to OU if it isn't getting enough usage from actual human players? I am aware that this is probably a post I should make in some tiering discussion thread so I apologize. (Also what is Tyranitar's usage without the bot inflation? I am sure it will still rise to OU anyway from actual human usage but I am still a bit curious.)

 

[KamenOH]

There is a triple weather team spammed by a bot on ladder that massively inflated its usage.

But how do we even know its a bot? Is it a bot, or is it just one person playing a lot of games?

If its one person playing like, 5 or so games simultaneously, then yeah its a bot i wont disagree, but how do we know?

 

[miya_04]

But how do we even know its a bot? Is it a bot, or is it just one person playing a lot of games?

If its one person playing like, 5 or so games simultaneously, then yeah its a bot i wont disagree, but how do we know?

Owner of the bot already came forward : )

 

[Setsu]

This is indeed not the place to discuss bots in ladder. There is a thread in Policy Review if you wish to read and talk about it. Otherwise, lets please try to avoid it here.

...

Excadrill is doing quite well, you can find a few replays from OLT quarterfinals and SCL. The social media section is working on an Excadrill spotlight coming out this month, and among teams you have this RMT by 658greninja and JackRG1. Both Swords Dance and Substitute sets are quite good, has entry points against the likes of Galarian Slowking and Raging Bolt, provides speed control, hazard removal, a potential wincon, and its somewhat hard to wall outright.

 

[Magcargo]

It is interesting to see at the generations tail-end, former OU mons that "fell off" like Tyranitar, Tornadus-T, Heatran, and Garchomp are seeing a resurgence. The impression I get is that this isn't entirely a fad and will likely last a while.

I haven't played for a couple of months, but I do wanna give a big shoutout to the resident GOAT (and of course ) for matching up incredibly well into a lot of these rising mons. Its a bit weird seeing that both Meowscarada / Weavile are currently in the B Ranks when they are arguably two of the best mons at farming a lot of these Torn-T builds we see on the ladder. Pads Meow I think is particularly nice since Helmet mons like Chomp or contract cheesers like Zapdos / Heatran just become more fodder. I think Meow just generally doing well vs standard cores like Ogerpon-W + Raging Bolt + Gking is just really nice asw.

https://pokepast.es/b4d95daa44bb1bfa <- Hit a peak of 1982 w/ this team a couple months ago. Meow is very nice partner for Keldeo since it has a great MU vs the regen crowd Keldeo struggles with. Its also an excellent opener for Gambit as its good at luring Gambit's checks like Zama / Corv early, and either crippling them w/ Knock Off or putting the pressure on Corv with Axel + Rocks, forcing it to expend Roosts & making it tougher for it to beat Gambit later.

Some replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2450105871-ccudaelr1xknmehq9yjypijrxuwiiyapw?p2
Got a bit lucky w/ Low Kick crit, but the opps team pretty much had no switch-ins to Meow here. Most of their mons were fodder.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2453320616
This guy is a bot I think, but uh..... Meow kinda cooked here I think with the Gambit Lure & Pads really helped it break down Moltres.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2451391364
Another Samu / Torn / Treads build where Meowscarada was a big threat throughout.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2451987972
Snipes Garchomp with Axel, Knock's off Corv's Helmet, and almost breaks through the bird if Axel didn't miss.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2453326276-7584vo7gnh7svinlhejn2qfhdx8a16xpw?p2
I played pretty shit here, but Meow basically 6-0'd this team and still extracted a lot of value even with my poor play. Low Kick was so strong, it forced Kyurem Tera, still deleted Lando-T with Axel, etc.

I haven't been playing lately, but based on general meta conditions where we are seeing more Helmet Chomp / Torn-T / Ttar, etc, I feel like things have only gotten better for Meow. I think its being slept on. Same with Weavile. That mon is crazy broken.

 

[Karxrida]

It is interesting to see at the generations tail-end, former OU mons that "fell off" like Tyranitar, Tornadus-T, Heatran, and Garchomp are seeing a resurgence. The impression I get is that this isn't entirely a fad and will likely last a while.

Tyranitar's initial drop was honestly more than understandable. The removal of Pursuit back in SWSH did it no favors and kind of killed one of its main niches, which hurts when a lot of good Ghosts are running around the tier that it wants to deal with but can't. Forcing something like Gholdengo to Tera when it might not want to with the threat of trapping could have been neat tech, too. Gaining access to Knock Off in the DLCs didn't fix anything outright, admittedly, but it definitely makes up for it a bit. If you get T-tar in safely it's very easy to click Knock Off with little regard for planning and cripple or potentially outright KO something when boosted by Band and maybe Tera Dark on top of that, and Ting-Lu can't even switch in safely more than once because Low Kick does 70% minimum to the standard Careful spread. (The Zamazenta matchup does suck, but you might be able to pressure you opponent into bringing it out early and burn Dauntless Shield I guess?) Sandstorm chip is also quite helpful when Boots are so common to deny hazards.

Tornadus-T falling off for a bit still kind of surprises me because it got a nice little buff in Bleakwind Storm being more accurate STAB than Hurricane. You're still going to miss a bit cause 80% accuracy, but a higher hit chance is a higher hit chance and means Bleakwind is mathematically more consistent on landing damage even if Hurricane has higher BP. Tera is also nice because you were probably already running Boots and can easily swap types to something better defensively with little consequence since losing Spikes immunity isn't a factor. Otherwise it still does annoying Torn-T things like spam fast Knock Offs, Taunts, and U-turns and shurging off damage with Regenerator to continue harrassing you throughout a game.

 

[658Greninja]

What are people’s thoughts on ?

For those who are unaware like a Dondozo, Zarude has recently been added to the Viability Rankings and moved up to C tier. This comes from the few impressive showings in OLT and SCL. The most notable of these is GXE ‘s match with Attribute where SD Zarude was used on a Sun team to make use of Leaf Guard + Synthesis with Tera to claim every kill.

Zarude also has unique qualities such as STAB Knock Off, and a slew of common resistances to Ghost, Dark, Ground, Grass, and Water. It also absorbs status with Jungle Healing, letting it 1v1 mons like Toxic Gliscor or G-Weezing if Zarude terastilizes. There’s alot of exploration for this mon that people may start partaking in since Zarude is now a BL knight. It has Trailblaze, Encore, and U-Turn. Zarude had matchups that range from solid to very good such as non-Spinner Treads, Hamurott, Ting-Lu, defensive Gholdengo, Mola, and Garganacl. The speed tier is really nice for Pecharunt, Kyurem, Lando, and offensive Zapdos. Could this be the next sleeper pick?

 

[cat111ca]

What are people’s thoughts on ?

For those who are unaware like a Dondozo, Zarude has recently been added to the Viability Rankings and moved up to C tier. This comes from the few impressive showings in OLT and SCL. The most notable of these is GXE ‘s match with Attribute where SD Zarude was used on a Sun team to make use of Leaf Guard + Synthesis with Tera to claim every kill.

Zarude also has unique qualities such as STAB Knock Off, and a slew of common resistances to Ghost, Dark, Ground, Grass, and Water. It also absorbs status with Jungle Healing, letting it 1v1 mons like Toxic Gliscor or G-Weezing if Zarude terastilizes. There’s alot of exploration for this mon that people may start partaking in since Zarude is now a BL knight. It has Trailblaze, Encore, and U-Turn. Zarude had matchups that range from solid to very good such as non-Spinner Treads, Hamurott, Ting-Lu, defensive Gholdengo, Mola, and Garganacl. The speed tier is really nice for Pecharunt, Kyurem, Lando, and offensive Zapdos. Could this be the next sleeper pick?

Zerude is almost completely outclassed by meowscarada. If you really want the power without the price of a band, there's life orb (the chip doesn't even matter because it's already so frail)

 

[658Greninja]

Zerude is almost completely outclassed by meowscarada. If you really want the power without the price of a band, there's life orb (the chip doesn't even matter because it's already so frail)

Obviously you’re entitled to your option, but its important to note that Zarude and Meowscarada perform different roles. Zarude is more of a sweeper/stallbreaker with incredible bulk while Meowscarada is a frail speedy pivot with utility and Ice coverage. Honestly LO Swords Dance might be a cool route to explore since at +2 it guarantees a one-shot on Kyurem, Pecharunt, Lando (with Power Whip) and can set up on passive teams with help from Tera + Jungle Healing. It can also power through non-Low Kick Gambit. +2 Pwhip 2HKOs bulky Gambit and Iron Head barely scratches Zarude’s health, thus it wins the exchange.

 

[Eeveeto]

Zerude is almost completely outclassed by meowscarada. If you really want the power without the price of a band, there's life orb (the chip doesn't even matter because it's already so frail)

Wrong. In Sun Zarude switches into Toxic Gliscor easily, boosts up, Knocks and sometimes sweeps. They work very differently. All Grass Dark Mons, despite having a terrible typing have their use. I personally order them in Viability like this: Meowscarada > Wo-Chien > Zarude > Brute Bonnet > Cacturne > Shiftry. That doesn,t mean any of them outclass others, though certainly using any non-Meowscarada one is quite hard.

 

[ScribeofRevocis]

Speaking of grass-dark mons, do y'all think wochien has any real use in the tier?
I think it could be a niche check to some mons like pult, tusk, treads, etc, but the typing is really iffy.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Zerude is almost completely outclassed by meowscarada. If you really want the power without the price of a band, there's life orb (the chip doesn't even matter because it's already so frail)

meow doesn't have bulk up or good natural bulk. zarude has both, plus a recovery move that removes burn and toxic. that gives it an exponentially better matchup into fatter teams that rely on consistent chip to make progress and status to stop sweeps. i can see zarude being an excellent fatbreaker with the right support, which meow can't do super well because its damage output is honestly just not that good

 

[Eeveeto]

Speaking of grass-dark mons, do y'all think wochien has any real use in the tier?
I think it could be a niche check to some mons like pult, tusk, treads, etc, but the typing is really iffy.

Nite check.
SD Waterpon check (+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tablets of Ruin Wo-Chien: 240-284 (64.1 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). However, U-Turn one destroys you.
Decent vs Pult, some Rillabooms, Samurott, SD Gliscor, Excadrill, Garchomp. These are all Mons it usually doesn,t have to Tera against. With Tera (usually Poison, but Ghost, Water and Fairy are there too), it can check pretty much what it wants (among physical Mons).
Set to use:
Babosa Letal (Wo-Chien) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Tablets of Ruin
Tera Type: Poison / Fairy / Water / Ghost
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Knock Off
- Foul Play
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

That being said, it has big limitations. Typing is terrible, so its going to Tera in many battles. Special Mons (like CM Clef or NP Darkrai) can boost easily. Spikes Gliscor is going to land all Spikes, abusing pasivity. You can,t just slap this Mon on whatever team and expect it to work.