That's more like icing on the cake, primarily I believe why people should use Jynx is, that a strong starting objective should be to get your own sleep off, and Jynx is the best mon to do that, based off of usage rates, I didn't say everyone had to use it. I'm just saying I think it's S tier.
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OU RBY OU Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Enigami
- Start date
>I think the only true correct opening is Jynx,
Uh huh.
Anyways yeah it was just me oversimplifying its 1 am i apologize for that.
However this is still just absolute air. THE strongest starting objective is to get your own sleep off, and yes jynx is the best mon at doing that, but its facing 2 dedicated sleep sacks both with their own ways of getting off sleep (Hence T1 chansey and T1 exeggutor vs Twave leads is so popular) that twave her to push sleep past her ASAP, Fast electric types that can cheese jynx easily (If Kiss misses or jynx blizzards zapdos can peck -> beam, or just twave and get slept or lead into peck, can also very rarely 2hko with peck, and jolt can pin missile her down + twave hax, and most likely backing exeggutor), and a demon genetically designed to be both a slot machine AND her worst nightmare while also being a sleeper, as well as an ensamble of other leads that She isnt meant to ever see, barring the Bull that will tear her to shreds (Who, suprise! Also has a gameplan for sleep.)
Mons is also just so much more than early game. Majority of the mons in the game Happen to work good in all 3 stages of the game, early, middle, and late. In most cases it is a MIRACLE jynx isnt serverely hindered by the middle game, let alone late. Her dominance in the starting turns of the game is what earned her a B tier spot, but all the mons above her just do more stuff and sometimes more valuable stuff across the course of a game, as well as other mons being able to take her spot on teams to compensate in places she doesnt.
She being the best sleeper does not inherently make her S tier, it just makes her the best sleeper.
Well, when I'm thinking about it, I consider sleep to be near functionally as useful as something like 85% of a KO. Jynx needs do little more than land an LK and a blizzard to meet it's 1:1 requirement.
Edit: what this means is that if each mon achieved it's 1:1 or more purpose, than you win. So Jynx only needs to achieve an LK and like 2-3 blizzards and it's already there.
(Stacking 9% frz chances)
85%+9%'s....you can adjust what you think the sleep to Ko conversation ratio is and add that you would need to land more blizzards to make the 1:1. Such as if you think getting sleep is only half of a KO, than you would do this:
100%-50%=50% so we need to get LK+
6 blizzards (9% each) on average to meet your personal standard of having Jynx achieve your version of its 1:1.
Edit2: this was under the assumption that frz=KO, but obviously it is less than a KO, because frz, blocks frz. So let's say it's 97% of a KO? Idk.
Tldr; So like, my point is it's easy for Jynx to meet it's quotient of usefulness required to win a match, and that is that it provides at least that it captures the equivalent of 1 mon or more before it goes down. If sleep is between 50-85% of a KO than Jynx needs to land between 2-6 blizzards on non ice or ice move blocking targets to meet it's quotient to win,provided that you know that each blizzard is about 9% to freeze. Jynx is likely to land within this 2-6 range of blizzards on average, so Jynx usually will meet quota, or will be close to quota every game, and it's very easy for anyone to play jynx to be either near 1:1 or above 1:1, with not much skill needed, Jynx is simple.
And this is why I think Jynx is S-Tier, is because anyone can play Jynx and have great results.
***(For what its relative turns were when it was in play)!
The questions you have to ask yourself is: What do you believe getting sleep in the match is worth relative to a KO? And what is freeze worth relative to a KO?
If you believe sleep is worth between 50-85% of a KO, and freeze is 90%+ of a KO, than getting LK+2-6 blizzards is the average that Jynx must do to be a self-sustainable winner of games.
......But, its always easy for jynx to come close to this don't you think? All it takes is clicking LK turn 0 gets most of this, and only needing to do a few more things like, landing a few blizzards or even blocking a few blizzards, blocking sleep, or doing damage,
if Jynx lands sleep and does anything else than it already met quota imo.
.....Actually it's as simple as if Jynx lands sleep, and then blocks sleep by taking the opps sleep ATK.... than....it's already near its 1:1 quota.lol.and if that's all it did, it would be good enough to be self sustainably winning games for its own slots sake. Each slot has to make quota, Jynx can easily.
Edit: what this means is that if each mon achieved it's 1:1 or more purpose, than you win. So Jynx only needs to achieve an LK and like 2-3 blizzards and it's already there.
(Stacking 9% frz chances)
85%+9%'s....you can adjust what you think the sleep to Ko conversation ratio is and add that you would need to land more blizzards to make the 1:1. Such as if you think getting sleep is only half of a KO, than you would do this:
100%-50%=50% so we need to get LK+
6 blizzards (9% each) on average to meet your personal standard of having Jynx achieve your version of its 1:1.
Edit2: this was under the assumption that frz=KO, but obviously it is less than a KO, because frz, blocks frz. So let's say it's 97% of a KO? Idk.
Tldr; So like, my point is it's easy for Jynx to meet it's quotient of usefulness required to win a match, and that is that it provides at least that it captures the equivalent of 1 mon or more before it goes down. If sleep is between 50-85% of a KO than Jynx needs to land between 2-6 blizzards on non ice or ice move blocking targets to meet it's quotient to win,provided that you know that each blizzard is about 9% to freeze. Jynx is likely to land within this 2-6 range of blizzards on average, so Jynx usually will meet quota, or will be close to quota every game, and it's very easy for anyone to play jynx to be either near 1:1 or above 1:1, with not much skill needed, Jynx is simple.
And this is why I think Jynx is S-Tier, is because anyone can play Jynx and have great results.
***(For what its relative turns were when it was in play)!
The questions you have to ask yourself is: What do you believe getting sleep in the match is worth relative to a KO? And what is freeze worth relative to a KO?
If you believe sleep is worth between 50-85% of a KO, and freeze is 90%+ of a KO, than getting LK+2-6 blizzards is the average that Jynx must do to be a self-sustainable winner of games.
......But, its always easy for jynx to come close to this don't you think? All it takes is clicking LK turn 0 gets most of this, and only needing to do a few more things like, landing a few blizzards or even blocking a few blizzards, blocking sleep, or doing damage,
if Jynx lands sleep and does anything else than it already met quota imo.
.....Actually it's as simple as if Jynx lands sleep, and then blocks sleep by taking the opps sleep ATK.... than....it's already near its 1:1 quota.lol.and if that's all it did, it would be good enough to be self sustainably winning games for its own slots sake. Each slot has to make quota, Jynx can easily.
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They’re not any percentage of a ko. 0% of a ko. They are qualitatively different, and different mons have different values when frozen/asleep. For example, frozen gengar can still catch multiple explosions, frozen chansey can’t. I think you should just stop using that framework. The answer is 0%
CC
How useful is freeze relative to a KO?
...are you trying to say this doesn't have an answer?
This is something with an Answer.
Edit: My own personal answer is if I aggregate the sum of all freezes(including Gengar) that the average sum of a freeze is worth over 90% of that of a KO, idk how that's controversial?
Also....there's a thing about catching explosions that frozen Gengars aren't common among that's hard to explain, but opps don't like exploding into ranges that contain frozen Gengars often.
They can be qualitatively converted to a KO, yes your right that Gengar gets some extra equity,.but it is trivial percentages, like because it's frzn Gengar its 92% of a Ko instead of 97%. These things can absolutely be converted, because I'm just comparing how useful something is.
How useful is freeze relative to a KO?
...are you trying to say this doesn't have an answer?
This is something with an Answer.
Edit: My own personal answer is if I aggregate the sum of all freezes(including Gengar) that the average sum of a freeze is worth over 90% of that of a KO, idk how that's controversial?
Also....there's a thing about catching explosions that frozen Gengars aren't common among that's hard to explain, but opps don't like exploding into ranges that contain frozen Gengars often.
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It's also important, in my opinion, that just getting a sleep doesn't count as a ko because you could have just got that sleep later. If jynx has to die for the sleep and a blizzard, but an Exeggutor could have sleep powdered and kept a 75% health Exeggutor...is that really a good Jynx?
Exeggutor for its own turn 0 relative comparison, already lost way too much equity in the sleep battle vs Jynx and Gengar, and swapping out from starmies.
Wait! Fundamentally this is why (par) Chansey can block sleep early game, and then prevent it from then the entire game, is technically possible. Sleep isn't a KO, but it can be converted to a qualitative relative usefulness quotient.
I would personally avoid using numbers and percentages in this abstract metaphorical way. Numbers are empirical and should be based in concrete data rather than arbitrary assumptions when possible, anything else is confusing and muddling. I don't think these pseudo-stats are an effective means of illustrating your point.
Than how can we establish how a queen is worth 8 pts in chess? It takes abstract thought to understand how a queen is 8 pts and a rook is 5 pts. If a KO is 1 pt, what is a sleep worth relative to a KO? Can't I ask that?
We can start with an estimate, and move to empirical data, such as how often does an asleep thing wake and up and then not fall back to sleep.same turn?
I just think it's silly when you say things like:
Zam has a 108% chance of running into a bad opening
A queen is worth 9pts btw
And anyone who knows any actual chess also would know that the evaluation of the position isn't just adding up the material. You can be down material and have the eval be like +5 under some conditions. If you want to look into chess some more and learn something from it that you can then bring back to Pokemon - great, I think it's useful - but this is not how anything works
You know what I mean though, someone had to establish the relative value of the pieces by comparing them at some point.
A KO can absolutely be compared to a sleep and a freeze for it's value just like this, can't we come together and just say we can do that?
Edit: Who told you it was 9 pts?
If someone told you it was, that means they had to compare and contrast the value of the pieces.
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The way to compare a KO to a sleep or freeze is to ask, what what a KO is? A KO'd poke can't do anything. How often does a frozen thing do anything useful? It probably will lose a tempo if you sack a frozen thing wrong. If it's sacked, refreeze is reopened on you. Freeze should be easily at least 90% as valuable as a KO.
Sleep is harder to identify, but if I use heuristics and guess it's about 70%+ than I need 3.3 blizzards or so to have Jynx break even.
Sleep is harder to identify, but if I use heuristics and guess it's about 70%+ than I need 3.3 blizzards or so to have Jynx break even.
Sure, you count the pokemon on each side and then you say "this guy is frozen so if I play well he's kinda dead", "i have zapdos vs rhydon so i have some disadvantage", etc. This is useful to do in a game situation. It is not very useful to do in abstract, and it's certainly not useful to do it with percentages that don't mean anything.
Very frequently my evaluation of a position starts with counting the pokemon on each side and approximating (slept, frozen, paralyzed on low hp etc.) as basically dead. That's fine for a starting point. But then you have to think about all the differences between how the remaining pokemon match up with each other, how slept/frozen pokemon can be used for tempo in various ways, and all such nuances - and that's where people have an issue with your posts. Because you start listing random numbers devoid of all context.
Chess piece approximation is easy, the pieces in most situations are about as good as they always are. A Bishop is a Bishop, there can be some positional concerns but you're not going to have a paralyzed 60% HP Bishop. You're not going to have a Bishop with an unrevealed move that the opponent must play around. It's a Bishop and it will be roughly worth the same as it always is, in almost all game scenarios. So even if we hypothetically come together to agree that Alakazam is exactly 1 and Gengar is 0.9, but slept Alakazam is 0.15 and slept Gengar is 0.25 - what purpose does this exercise serve? You will have to re-approximate from those base values based on what's on the enemy team, whether you managed to burn sleep turns, a million other things, all the way down to converting mindgames and playstyle reads to numerical estimates if we really go all the way. Because we're playing against humans not bots, so of course those are important too. We're never going to have accurate numerical approximation for all of these scenarios, nothing close to it. We guess and we see who's right by the end of the game.
You are not going to math out who's the best lead. It's a completely impractical idea and the attempts have visibly led you to faulty conclusions. Nobody has an issue with the idea of approximating the evaluation of a game position, it's the way you get to your numbers that people find ludicrous, and the idea that instead of saying "the position seems slightly favored", you pull some insane number with no context to it, as if it's at all helpful to this exercise.
Practically, if someone finds out the "best lead" objectively, we will know. They will start winning a ton of games and everyone will notice and catch up. This is how progress is made.
Progress is not made by agreeing on "how much of a % of a full KO is sleep equivalent to". Any generic answer will extremely frequently lead you astray, you always have to tune it up or down. It's "kind of a KO but obviously not", you figure out the rest with your brain on a case by case basis.
My Starmie missed Blizzard against Exeggutor 3 times in a row the other day. I have since changed to Ice Beam, and I have not regretted it
Yet.
So far, it has only been giving me upsides. When I have some more games with it, I'll count up the moments in which I wish I had Blizzard instead, and see if it is really worth it. So far, I have not wished I had Blizzard instead.
Yet.
So far, it has only been giving me upsides. When I have some more games with it, I'll count up the moments in which I wish I had Blizzard instead, and see if it is really worth it. So far, I have not wished I had Blizzard instead.
Well,.if anyone wants large advancements in progress for RBY, we will have to aggregate data and pool it centrally, and then cross compare the data for facts within within the battles. One of the data points I was hoping to address was how often a frozen mon gains a tempo vs loses a tempo.
Its possible to control+f every frozen mon and then see when it goes down if it was a loss or gain in tempo.
Its possible to control+f every frozen mon and then see when it goes down if it was a loss or gain in tempo.
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Alright, I finally have a new edition to the tier list. One of the hardest things about making these team tier lists is coming up with the names. I'm not sure what to call this next one, so I'm just going to generically call it Zap!
Starmie/Alakazam/Exeggutor/Snorlax/Tauros/ annnnnnnddddddd Zapdos!!!!!!
And it will be going in *drruummm rolllllllll*
Mid A!!!
Congratulations!
High A:
Mid A: Zap! (Starmie/Alakazam/Exeggutor/Snorlax/Tauros/Zapdos)
Low A: The Cholaski (Jynx/Chansey/Cloyster/Tauros/Starmie/Golem)
High B:
Mid B:
Low B: Classic Don (Starmie/Exeggutor/Chansey/Snorlax/Rhydon/Tauros)
The Specials (Alakazam/Exeggutor/Chansey/Snorlax/Starmie/Tauros)
Finally, someone fixed the specials team's lack of firing power. Not with counter chansey. Not with hyper beam exeggutor. But with Zapdos! Brilliant! And it doesn't even miss Chansey. The Cholaski is very good. It doesn't have any glaring weaknesses, but it doesn't want to see thunderbolt Tauros. Granted, very few people use that, so most of the time, it is smooth sailing, but if one suspects the opponent is using thunderbolt tauros, it forces one to play riskier in order to counteract that. Zap! on the other hand really only has Rhydon to deal with and honestly, I just don't have that much of an issue beating those teams. If that is the best the opponent can do to counter this team, then this team definitely has to go above The Cholaski. As Lusch said in his viability rankings, Zapdos is one of the best comeback pokemon. The value of that cannot be overstated in a game like this. If you are a skilled player in this game, you win the games you should win most of the time, but then there is a smaller percentage of games that the game tries to decide that you should just lose. Zapdos tries its best to annihilate the latter, increasing what your winrate would otherwise be.
Idk if I'll add to this again, but I'm very happy that I at least started this. If anyone wants to add to this (even lower tiers like C tier), or disagree with me and change the teams around, that would be cool. I just think a team tier list, in and of itself, is very valueable, and the most valueable thing that could come out of it is it changing the way we speak about the game (such as team weaknesses and team strengths), which would be very valuable in just giving us a new conceptual framework in which to think about the game.
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I totally agree that a tier list ranking of teams is a useful exercise. Depending on how much time I spend on dinner tonight I'll try contribute here
Gengar+Alakazam+Chansey+Cloyster+Zapdos+Tauros.
- This team got me to 88% GXE spamming it with no regard to anything.
Edit....in 2018.
Times change. Its creator doesn't seem to be fond of it anymore.
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Well, your listing, lacks a Gengar lead, that's my best one.
I can get 77% ,GXE with: Metapod, Jynx(False lead), Chansey,Starmie,Cloyster,Tauros.
Boy.does it sure get wrecked by any electric
Boy.does it sure get wrecked by any electric
I'll be impressed when its 80 plus. There's gotta be a way to get that last 3 percent.
Its senile hard use Metapod as a lead because many experienced opponents won't even take it for sleep, and will try to KO Metapod instead, so the lead spot needs Jynx to prevent those freeze and sleep odds as best as possible.
...which means it starts off with our Jynx asleep, Metapod who isn't good, and they are still awake. So it starts off 4 vs 6 sometimes, super tough to get 80%.
Sometimes opps will sleep Metapod first,.or paralyze Chansey first, and I can work on them, and win from behind, but it's tough to win from starting out by revealing a terrible bug.
...which means it starts off with our Jynx asleep, Metapod who isn't good, and they are still awake. So it starts off 4 vs 6 sometimes, super tough to get 80%.
Sometimes opps will sleep Metapod first,.or paralyze Chansey first, and I can work on them, and win from behind, but it's tough to win from starting out by revealing a terrible bug.
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Starmie is better. You want to avoid paralysis in general so you can instead get sleep or freeze, as that gives you a much bigger momentum boost than thunderwave, UNLESS you are thunderwaving the right things. Starmie is better both because it has better options than zam outside of thunderwave (well... a better option, ice>seismic toss), but even its thunderwave is better because it can thunderwave more valuable targets than zam, because those valuable targets like to stay in on Starmie, such as Jolteon. Pressing thunderwave on Jolteon is a little risky, but it is devastating. Lead Jolt does not want to be paralyzed. Huge early game momentum swing.
Edit: Also, having ice moves against Exeggutor is huge. Freezing Chansey is also nice. But even worst case scenario, paralyzing Chansey is also much better than having to thunderwave Exeggutor and just press seismic toss until he sleeps you. Paralyzed Chansey is obviously weak to your physical hitters and there is an obvious game plan to get rid of her. Whereas para'd Egg is still a real pain that you really have to watch out for. It's a worse trade off than para'd Chansey.
Edit 2: Just to be more concrete. Jynx is actually not a favorable match up for Starmie. Starmie wants to thunderwave Jynx, Jynx knows this and wants to switch to Chansey to catch the thunderwave. I press thunderwave more often than not and like I said... It's not the end of the world if they switch to Chansey.
Against Gengar, press psychic.
Against Alakazam, press ice. If he paralyzes you, switch to egg.
Against opposing Starmie, press ice.
Against Zapdos, if no Rhydon... this is not fun, but generally ice is good.
Against Tauros, thunderwave is the safe option, if you think he'll switch to Chansey, ice is good.
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