OU RBY OU Discussion Thread

[dangerk1d]

how common is single sleeper? i always find myself wanting at least two sleepers incase something happens to my first sleeper. feels like an insurance worth investing in say, if you're running lead jynx and don't wanna lose your single sleeper in the worst case scenario. though i reckon it's eggy in the back most often used for single sleeper and more uncommon for single sleeper to lead jynx?

Your hunch about single sleep jynx being less consistent than egg is spot on, but it's not necessarily less common. A lot of players prefer to greed solo sleep jynx, either because they view jynx as an inherent risk that should be committed to fully or because the costs of double sleep for them are too high. For example, I almost always prefer double sleep with jynx, but doing so on jynx mie don forces you to drop bolt on chansey and blizz on starmie, which makes the team feel way worse at breaking egg. And then you usually have to run to beamlax for starmie, which makes you worse into opposing egg don teams. So in that particular case for me, the consistency of double sleep is usually not worth the other bad matchups + drop in power. It ultimately comes down to what you prefer.

 

[SpoiledBerries]

Your hunch about single sleep jynx being less consistent than egg is spot on, but it's not necessarily less common. A lot of players prefer to greed solo sleep jynx, either because they view jynx as an inherent risk that should be committed to fully or because the costs of double sleep for them are too high. For example, I almost always prefer double sleep with jynx, but doing so on jynx mie don forces you to drop bolt on chansey and blizz on starmie, which makes the team feel way worse at breaking egg. And then you usually have to run to beamlax for starmie, which makes you worse into opposing egg don teams. So in that particular case for me, the consistency of double sleep is usually not worth the other bad matchups + drop in power. It ultimately comes down to what you prefer.

@solosleepjynx i wanna add that i think those teams get considerably safer to run at a higher level. The main thing you're watching out for with solosleep jynx is getting gar boomed on imo, but since it's understood the safer click when you don't know the jynx players team is taking the hypno thats what you generally see getting clicked more often. With JynxMieDon specifically once jynx is sleeping the matchup can be equalized eqlax and chansey, especially if its vs GarZap. Since JynxMieDon is a super synergistic team if your early sleep gets down and running singchans requires big concessions to be made the solosleep variant still sees tons of play even though its greedy, Sceptross especially used it a ton last SPL and sometimes twice a set.

https://pokepast.es/8fe6936162a5c7bb
I like this version of the 6 a lot, the team has to risk starmie often so blizzbolt ros is a huge help vs cloy teams and leerdon is good so enemy reflax don't run through your team with starmie paralyzed. Boomlax rounds out the team really nicely and bandaids the mild tauros weakness that comes with running rhydon but the rhydon ditto and gar mus are made a lot harder.
One more thing, after running it a bit in the past and seeing it flop I don't think singchans on this team is very viable. You have to run SingIce or you're too rhydon weak, which forces you into running SurfBolt starmie which means you're a rhydon team that gets dogwalked by eggy and starmie. If you think they're likely to garboom you, run MieEggDon.

 

[Amaranth]

@solosleepjynx i wanna add that i think those teams get considerably safer to run at a higher level. The main thing you're watching out for with solosleep jynx is getting gar boomed on imo, but since it's understood the safer click when you don't know the jynx players team is taking the hypno thats what you generally see getting clicked more often. With JynxMieDon specifically once jynx is sleeping the matchup can be equalized eqlax and chansey, especially if its vs GarZap. Since JynxMieDon is a super synergistic team if your early sleep gets down and running singchans requires big concessions to be made the solosleep variant still sees tons of play even though its greedy, Sceptross especially used it a ton last SPL and sometimes twice a set.

https://pokepast.es/8fe6936162a5c7bb
I like this version of the 6 a lot, the team has to risk starmie often so blizzbolt ros is a huge help vs cloy teams and leerdon is good so enemy reflax don't run through your team with starmie paralyzed. Boomlax rounds out the team really nicely and bandaids the mild tauros weakness that comes with running rhydon but the rhydon ditto and gar mus are made a lot harder.
One more thing, after running it a bit in the past and seeing it flop I don't think singchans on this team is very viable. You have to run SingIce or you're too rhydon weak, which forces you into running SurfBolt starmie which means you're a rhydon team that gets dogwalked by eggy and starmie. If you think they're likely to garboom you, run MieEggDon.

There are many many upsides of Sing Chans on JynxMieDon aside from Gengar Explosion insurance:
* Improved lines to switch on twave turn 1 - boltbeam chansey can also do this to some degree, but you need to find a switch back to Jynx later, Sing makes it much cleaner. This helps the match ups vs a lot of stuff and especially stuff that goes Sing SToss Chans to greed a sleepless Eggy (not especially common, but reasonably popular over the last ~year id say).
* Much improved Jynx mirror (duo sleep vs solo sleep is decisively ahead if you win the lead tie, and only concedes a couple freeze chances if you lose it as opposed to having to play a full 5v6)
* Many times opponent doesn't even think to play around the Sing bc they just see lead Jynx and assume/gamble on no Sing (especially true of SingIce if you can reveal Ice early).
* Not autolosing to Gengar Explosion is a nice side effect, but about #4 on the list of reasons to run this (match up is still pretty bad as garboom t1 is usually followed by Eggy or Jynx sleeps which means your Chansey still can't get sleep, you either have to give up the Starmie and play a very gimped Rhydon endgame, or the Rhydon itself but it needs to hard switch from unrevealed on the sleep move which can be awkward)

Also: I don't really understand how running TBolt Mie makes you "dogwalked by Starmie" either, and if Exeggutor wants to come on SurfBolt Starmie when you're running a Rhydon team to take twave and chip, you're more than happy. This whole analysis doesn't really make sense to me.
Of course Egg+Mie is always going to be a bad match up for Rhydon teams but you're as well equipped as any other version really, certainly the match up is a hell of a lot worse if your Starmie is *not* Thunderbolt (as you end up falling for the easy line of Egg booms Chans -> your Starmie+Lax+Tauros+Rhydon all lose to enemy Starmie)

It's clear that solo sleep Jynx is still viable of course, and a necessary greed at high levels into certain scouts, but dual sleep has felt FAR more consistent to me on paper and in practice. The opportunity cost of Sing>TBolt just isn't very high to me as I don't think SurfBolt (or PsyBolt) Starmie is bad on this 6 at all. Like I wouldn't be running Blizz Mie at all anyways, what are you hitting? You've got tools for both Exeggutor and Zapdos, you're certainly not struggling in either match up. "Oops all Eggy hate" teams are pretty good, but any Rhydon team is by definition not that, so that's not the reason for Blizz Mie either. What is the reason you want Blizz Mie so bad on this 6? Abusing opps who risk Eggy vs unrevealed Mie by default? It's an upside but hardly fundamental imo. Is there anything else I'm missing?

 

[violet river]

There are many many upsides of Sing Chans on JynxMieDon aside from Gengar Explosion insurance:
* Improved lines to switch on twave turn 1 - boltbeam chansey can also do this to some degree, but you need to find a switch back to Jynx later, Sing makes it much cleaner. This helps the match ups vs a lot of stuff and especially stuff that goes Sing SToss Chans to greed a sleepless Eggy (not especially common, but reasonably popular over the last ~year id say).
* Much improved Jynx mirror (duo sleep vs solo sleep is decisively ahead if you win the lead tie, and only concedes a couple freeze chances if you lose it as opposed to having to play a full 5v6)
* Many times opponent doesn't even think to play around the Sing bc they just see lead Jynx and assume/gamble on no Sing (especially true of SingIce if you can reveal Ice early).
* Not autolosing to Gengar Explosion is a nice side effect, but about #4 on the list of reasons to run this (match up is still pretty bad as garboom t1 is usually followed by Eggy or Jynx sleeps which means your Chansey still can't get sleep, you either have to give up the Starmie and play a very gimped Rhydon endgame, or the Rhydon itself but it needs to hard switch from unrevealed on the sleep move which can be awkward)

Also: I don't really understand how running TBolt Mie makes you "dogwalked by Starmie" either, and if Exeggutor wants to come on SurfBolt Starmie when you're running a Rhydon team to take twave and chip, you're more than happy. This whole analysis doesn't really make sense to me.
Of course Egg+Mie is always going to be a bad match up for Rhydon teams but you're as well equipped as any other version really, certainly the match up is a hell of a lot worse if your Starmie is *not* Thunderbolt (as you end up falling for the easy line of Egg booms Chans -> your Starmie+Lax+Tauros+Rhydon all lose to enemy Starmie)

It's clear that solo sleep Jynx is still viable of course, and a necessary greed at high levels into certain scouts, but dual sleep has felt FAR more consistent to me on paper and in practice. The opportunity cost of Sing>TBolt just isn't very high to me as I don't think SurfBolt (or PsyBolt) Starmie is bad on this 6 at all. Like I wouldn't be running Blizz Mie at all anyways, what are you hitting? You've got tools for both Exeggutor and Zapdos, you're certainly not struggling in either match up. "Oops all Eggy hate" teams are pretty good, but any Rhydon team is by definition not that, so that's not the reason for Blizz Mie either. What is the reason you want Blizz Mie so bad on this 6? Abusing opps who risk Eggy vs unrevealed Mie by default? It's an upside but hardly fundamental imo. Is there anything else I'm missing?

the main downside wrt having to run psybolt/surfbolt mie is that in order to check mie like that, you have to absorb paralysis on your starmie. keeping a pristine starmie is often very important in my opinion for both restlax and tauros. i feel as though you trade off sing>bolt on chans in that you get better early lines and sleep game etc, but the sacrifice is that you're forced to take paralysis on starmie a lot of the time.

 

[Amaranth]

the main downside wrt having to run psybolt/surfbolt mie is that in order to check mie like that, you have to absorb paralysis on your starmie. keeping a pristine starmie is often very important in my opinion for both restlax and tauros. i feel as though you trade off sing>bolt on chans in that you get better early lines and sleep game etc, but the sacrifice is that you're forced to take paralysis on starmie a lot of the time.

But this always happens no? Your Chansey gets boomed and then you just have to anyway? Unless you go Starmie on Egg straight away to protect Chansey from the boom... which also gets your Starmie paralyzed? It's such a marginal improvement IMO it makes things more comfortable but not really in a way that meaningfully improves any match up

 

[violet river]

But this always happens no? Your Chansey gets boomed and then you just have to anyway? Unless you go Starmie on Egg straight away to protect Chansey from the boom... which also gets your Starmie paralyzed? It's such a marginal improvement IMO it makes things more comfortable but not really in a way that meaningfully improves any match up

i think it decreases the amount of time where you get to play the game with an unpar starmie

 

[dangerk1d]

My preference for jynx (psyblizz) mie don might be a case for the particular meta trends of the now. Mie teams are low, egg teams are high, and those that use both in the back seem to prefer psyblizz on mie to hedge for zapdos, which means I can still have a chance if egg blows up on chansey. Chansey walled by mie + mie walled by egg means I have to play a little more slowly with a structure that feels very defensively unsound, and I really value the offense that bb chansey enables in this case. Having to get lax or starmie parad in order to stop mie (as river mentioned) slows things down a lot for me, and being able to run other moves on lax is also nice (boom to be a bit better into tauros + less exploited by don, and I guess ice/eq versions too).

I also think rhydon is so strong and so good at abusing paralysis that losing out on sleep is less of a tragedy than for other teams, because you can para and break to make up the disadvantage.

 

[Leader of the Rockets]

I mean at that point you're just describing stall, which has pretty much always struggled in rby. Parahax and crits ruin the efficacy of stalling out the game, making teambuilding for that sort of thing even more of a stretch.

As much as I like to bash Wrap, it's just better at utilising poison/burn (which isn't saying much). Why waste turns for the sake of time when you can just go for the win? Games taking longer cuts both ways because it allows more opportunity for the aggressive player to land hax

Well the question, "Why not go for the win?" depends entirely on if wrap is really "going for the win." My answer would be no. I like trapping moves as a way to get out of corners or in situations in which they are relatively safe, but like you, I have found building teams that depend on them is never consistent.

You don't need to make the whole team stall. You don't need to be in the team builder thinking, "How do I make a stall team that uses toxic to win the game?" I'm not saying I have a found a way to bring gsc spikes and stall teams to gen 1. You just need to be able to stall the specific pokemon that is poisoned, such as Chansey or Alakazam. You need to be able to stall in parts of the game. Not the whole game.

 

[Leader of the Rockets]

I haven't really kept up with what people have used in tournaments as of late, so idk if I'm late or early to the party, but reflect beam/bolt Chansey has just straight up surprised me and beaten me in a couple of games. This prompted me to try it for myself, and I felt immediate pay off. It seems to be really good against the popular team structures right now. I don't have any interesting commentary to add. Just reporting my experience.

 

[SpoiledBerries]

Also: I don't really understand how running TBolt Mie makes you "dogwalked by Starmie" either,
I don't think SurfBolt (or PsyBolt) Starmie is bad on this 6 at all.

surfbolt MieDon is a really obvious synergy, surfbolt is clearly fine on this 6. The problem is that you're making your chansey a useless sack of shit on a team that needs all of it to not be to function properly. Starmie is a pretty vital defensive piece on this team bc its your only special breaker + 1 of 2 para spreaders + faster-than-tauros-guy and to not let enemy starmie walk all over you u have to instantly let it get paralyzed lol. It makes u super weak into tauros and lax and since your chansey is griefed you have a super hard time breaking through eggy too, which can cause big problems if its running a recovery move in drain/rest which are both getting more common in the meta rn. You get dogwalked by Starmie because if you don't get the freeze it puts pressure on your biggest defensive flaw (normals). JynxMieDon is a team that has to risk Starmie anyway and a lot of games it is gonna be forced into taking a twave, but usually thats after lax has gotten his slams off and maybe boomed and your chansey has spread some waves so that your physical attackers are set up to try win. Getting your starmie forced out and kneecapped if you dont want theirs to farm you sounds like a recipe for disaster, and I think that correlates with what I've seen, the team flows a lot better defensively with a freed starmie and chansey.

Im a rly big SingChans user so this would all be forgiveable if it freed up tons of room for your team in other places

* Improved lines to switch on twave turn 1

This isn't something I super value that much without getting a builder advantage out of it with sleepless egg and i'm sure it doesn't help with your general lax woes but i mean yeah ok it streamlines ur plays compared to bb chans, this can be good if its a line you're looking to take before the set

* Much improved Jynx mirror

if you win the tie:
you get the privilege of playing the same team but with a griefed chansey waow
if you lose the tie:
Instasinging the jynx for the 5v5 is another decent reason to run singchans here i suppose. Personally I think that playing 5v6 but their 6th is a Jynx is a fine gamestate to be in especially with this team, proportionally to how bad singice sux if you win the tie, but i can concede this too.

* Many times opponent doesn't even think to play around the Sing bc they just see lead Jynx and assume/gamble on no Sing (especially true of SingIce if you can reveal Ice early).

I think you'd like tbolt counter chansey this is mickey lol

* Not autolosing to Gengar Explosion (match up is still pretty bad)

The mu still sux yeah. I do like pblizz a little for this because if u get boomed and they're running egg u can go mie and try hateblizz them for the critmiss or freeze, and that + egghate and psydrop utility are why I like it on this team (though surfbolt is pretty interchangable (maybe better?) and I guess psybolt too).

I'm not super convinced but please do respond and tell me if i've got something super wrong, I'm writing this up bc i don't understand ur perspective and not to say "ur stupid and wrong". Perhaps UnViable(tm) is harsh but I do believe that if you think solosleep Jynx is too greedy in the mu that you're better off running a different team that can more easily afford two sleepers, eg. MieEggDon or CloyDon or like JynxMieEggDon maybe.

 

[Amaranth]

I'm not super convinced but please do respond and tell me if i've got something super wrong

i dont think you got anything "super wrong" but theres this general attitude from people that having sing on chansey is this gigantic sacrifice and i don't really agree with it at all, obviously it is A Sacrifice but its a price i'm more than willing to pay for the upsides. "griefed chansey" is crazy, your chansey still beats enemy starmie. you sit there and ice beam with a shit eating grin on your face. what are they gonna do? switch to lax? congrats thats the same counterplay they have for boltbeam chansey. tbolt improves almost nothing in an early game position, it only matters if opponent is trying to full send the 1v1 with psydrops which... why? you're happy to take frz odds or even just to settle for twave (you have a rhydon team after all). not to mention, if they are psyblizz and trying this 1v1, then you also dunk on them with your own starmie whenever the hell you like (sure you have to accept your twave, but they have to accept losing the game, so that's a good trade i think)

ofc its possible they bait a twave and catch it with starmie and *now* your chansey feels a bit griefed but that shouldnt happen all that much and not without giving up a significant number of ice beams in the process

and of course it matters in endgames, but endgame chansey is a total brick in a majority of situations and should be avoided as a whole generally

 

[violet river]

i dont think you got anything "super wrong" but theres this general attitude from people that having sing on chansey is this gigantic sacrifice and i don't really agree with it at all, obviously it is A Sacrifice but its a price i'm more than willing to pay for the upsides. "griefed chansey" is crazy, your chansey still beats enemy starmie. you sit there and ice beam with a shit eating grin on your face. what are they gonna do? switch to lax? congrats thats the same counterplay they have for boltbeam chansey. tbolt improves almost nothing in an early game position, it only matters if opponent is trying to full send the 1v1 with psydrops which... why? you're happy to take frz odds or even just to settle for twave (you have a rhydon team after all). not to mention, if they are psyblizz and trying this 1v1, then you also dunk on them with your own starmie whenever the hell you like (sure you have to accept your twave, but they have to accept losing the game, so that's a good trade i think)

ofc its possible they bait a twave and catch it with starmie and *now* your chansey feels a bit griefed but that shouldnt happen all that much and not without giving up a significant number of ice beams in the process

and of course it matters in endgames, but endgame chansey is a total brick in a majority of situations and should be avoided as a whole generally

so we're already accepting we have to be throwing beam out and not twaving, and giving enemy lax better entry on jynx teams(ones that do not take kindly to normals smashing through them as a general rule). BBchans is more able to spread paralysis/have the team spread paralysis, because it doesn't get permablocked by mie. the main thing tbolt improves in an early game position is you have a proactive swap versus starmie that can start laying down paralysis. hrm, i'm phrasing pretty poorly, but my point is that we either accept more passive lines, or we have to use our Starmie for the enemy starmie/ros earlier in the game. JynxMieDon especially is a team that adores having its starmie pristine, imo - once it takes paralysis, Tauros and RefLax both look like huge threats.
Snorlax swap on monoice chansey isnt the same counterplay as snorlax swap on bbchansey, because you're heavily disincentivised from thunder waving.
Having to raw our snorlax into their unpar snorlax means our lax has less health, meaning it can take on tauros less, meaning starmie has to check tauros.
Generally just having a less self sufficient chansey means starmie has to fight more stuff, and JynxMieDon is a team that likes to try keep starmie, is my thinking. I don't HATE singchans on this team, but it's definitely making you worse vs cloy ros reflax etc. I have one set of this team that I like well enough.

 

[BeeOrSomething]

Generally, if the opponent is fine accepting paralysis on their Starmie when you’re playing with Rhydon, Lax, and Tauros, then surely that is plenty enough in many situations to accept that Chansey is technically “walled” by Starmie. Depends what you as a player care about more, I suppose. I agree that BB Chans is typically going to be better at spreading paralysis and being a backup option in end games. Having unparalyzed Jynx open in the back against a likely slept psychic lead team is certainly quite good though.

 

[dangerk1d]

You don't need to make the whole team stall. You don't need to be in the team builder thinking, "How do I make a stall team that uses toxic to win the game?" I'm not saying I have a found a way to bring gsc spikes and stall teams to gen 1. You just need to be able to stall the specific pokemon that is poisoned, such as Chansey or Alakazam. You need to be able to stall in parts of the game. Not the whole game.

The most promising application for this I've seen is toxic to support amnesia reflect bolt lax, because the electric resists/immunities often can't heal and one of your other biggest obstacles is Chansey pp stalling you, which becomes way harder to do with the assistance of passive damage. I tried it on ladder while testing for tour and it can indeed farm, there are plenty of things (jolt, zap, gar, toss chansey) to bait don, and opposing Chansey of course will be switching into plenty of things.

I've struggled to find other win conditions that prefer toxic > paralysis though, even something like molt often seems better with paralysis to hedge for how shit your move accuracy is. I considered golem > don on laxless structures, basically like the old amaranth toxic boom spams to wear down a few things until i can outnumber them with explosions, but I feel like the meta is way too fast right now to not have something to clean and close a won position.

Maybe a team with beam agilinite (1 wrapper) could work with boom support to protect you from Tauros/other things that'll hax you in a long game, you can stall/slow the game down and then have the option to pounce, agility, and then win the game, kind of like those gsc drumlax teams. Thinking out loud so that may be crap, but I'd have to look into it.

 

[Teh]

How do people make Big 6 work? I feel obligated to use it occasionally for scout diversity but it just feels completely miserable to play, with pretty shit matchups across the board, bad early game lines, and very little breaking power. Are the "obvious" sets holding the team back?

 

[Amaranth]

How do people make Big 6 work? I feel obligated to use it occasionally for scout diversity but it just feels completely miserable to play, with pretty shit matchups across the board, bad early game lines, and very little breaking power. Are the "obvious" sets holding the team back?

a good amount of the time i go countersing chansey, try it out. stronger early lines with sing, autowin potential removing lax especially with occasionally zam and/or blizzbolt mie behind, and even if they don't fall for it, giving enemy lax a harder time is still nice as it helps you along your midgame wincon of just being ahead in the chans/lax dances

i suspect you can also get improved results by going either sing or counter, not necessarily both at once

 

[Eeveeto]

Big 6 are good and solid, but also the team that makes Zapdos look great (he is not).

 

[Vileman]

Big 6 are good and solid, but also the team that makes Zapdos look great (he is not).

You're nuts

 

[Believer of GXE]

So when I'm team building.......
The "Big 6" is the theoretical I use to determine what team I'll be facing when thinking what my team should be every single time...

Such as an example would be; the team I auto assume my opp has is leading Alakazam or Starmie and has the "big 6".


For using it in particular I feel it lacks the physical stat presence to push through my opps. Idk what advantage I'm expecting if I assume my opp has the same team?

 

[bdt2002]

Such as an example would be; the team I auto assume my opp has is leading Alakazam or Starmie and has the "big 6".


For using it in particular I feel it lacks the physical stat presence to push through my opps. Idk what advantage I'm expecting if I assume my opp has the same team?

This is unironically one of the reasons I like Starmie + Cloyster so much. I find that, specifically on low ladder, but you’ll see this in higher levels of play every so often too, that people react to fast Lead Psychics with some degree of predictability. Chansey switching into Thunder Waves, attempting to trade Psychic Special drops, and MieDon teams in particular can try and force an Agility from a paralyzed Zapdos, which in turn would grant the Starmie user a free switch into an unreleased Rhydon even if the Zapdos clicks Thunder(bolt). Things like these have a pattern that I myself have fallen victim to plenty of times- low ladder players gravitate towards the plays that have the highest potential upside rather than what’s necessarily the most practical, and even then the MieDon example becomes more shaky if the Zapdos user makes the correct reads.

This is all where Cloyster comes into play. The threat of paralysis from Lead Psychics significantly enhances the threat of partial trapping- in this case, STAB Clamp- and I really like using Cloyster’s surprise factor in tandem with partial wrapping’s pivoting potential (say that ten times fast) to take advantage of common structures I often face when I’m playing this tier.

My current favorite team I’ve been using is a Starmie/Alakazam/Cloyster variant that uses double Fast Psychics for late game Alakazam cleaning and any occasional Victreebel usage spikes, Chansey as my preferred check to Electric-Types over Rhydon, and the combination of Lead Starmie, Cloyster itself, and Snorlax to lock down my opponent’s chosen answers to Alakazam and Tauros’s progress-making. The hardest matchup for me is probably Exeggutor, specifically Sleep Powder Egg (Stun Spore Egg is usually doable), so I’m still wondering what I can do about that. Other cores, though? Love this team. Starmie + Cloyster eats these teams alive if you know what you’re doing.

 

[Leader of the Rockets]

Marcoasd made a video on Zapdos and spoke on how many people think it isn't that great. People say Rhydon walls Zapdos and give this as justification for why Zapdos is a mediocre ou mon. But, if instead of asking, "Does Rhydon wall Zapdos?" we instead ask, "Does Rhydon effectively wall this Zapdos team?", the answer should be no. And that changes everything. It has been said that one can only play double switching mind games until Rhydon is gone or that you're basically playing a 5 vs 6 for most of the game. I don't think this is true though. I mean, ideally, your opponent wants to save Rhydon until your Zapdos is gone. Can't this be exploited? Isn't this a weakness you are inducing within your opponent's team? If my opponent has Rhydon and he is genuinely playing a 5 vs 6 with me (i.e. getting Rhydon involved) instead of an equal 5 vs 5... then I'm winning. He is being careless, and I'm most likely winning because of it. I think Zapdos is a high skill pokemon (or Zapdos teams are high skill teams to be more precise), and I think a lot of people just don't know how to play Zapdos teams or they play them carelessly. There is really no reason why Rhydon teams should be walling Zapdos teams at any sort of dominant rate.

To be fair: I do think the popular Zapdos teams of the past were slow and not conducive to synergizing well with Zapdos. But with newer teams, I no longer feel that Rhydon teams are a counter to Zapdos teams. And I honestly don't hear anyone even try to argue that Rhydon teams do counter Zapdos teams, which is obviously harder to do.

I think another aspect is how much more limited rhydon structures are compared to zap ones.

Back when I made this post over a month ago, I was speaking from my experience in not feeling like I was being countered whenever my opponent brought Rhydon when I was using Zapdos. Many people disagreed with me, which made me second guess a little and made me think, "is there some Rhydon team I have just by happenstance avoided? Is there some player(s) who are especially good with Rhydon teams that I have just by chance missed?" Also, dangerk1d replied to my post with the above reply. At the time, I wasn't completely sure I agreed with it. Well, over a month later of really only being focused on this in my pokemon life, I have a complete embodied understanding of this matchup and can confidently say not only do Rhydon teams not counter Zapdos teams, but Zapdos teams are better and beat Rhydon teams, which are more predictable/i.e. less dynamic, and one of Zap teams' strengths is incentivizing the opponent to bring a Rhydon team.

Caveat: This is only true at the highest level; the opposite is true at lower levels. No one will agree with this now. I know this. But I will leave this here for future vindication. Everyone will eventually agree with this. This is one of the few things in this game in which I have zero doubts now.

 

[Leader of the Rockets]

Back when I made this post over a month ago, I was speaking from my experience in not feeling like I was being countered whenever my opponent brought Rhydon when I was using Zapdos. Many people disagreed with me, which made me second guess a little and made me think, "is there some Rhydon team I have just by happenstance avoided? Is there some player(s) who are especially good with Rhydon teams that I have just by chance missed?" Also, dangerk1d replied to my post with the above reply. At the time, I wasn't completely sure I agreed with it. Well, over a month later of really only being focused on this in my pokemon life, I have a complete embodied understanding of this matchup and can confidently say not only do Rhydon teams not counter Zapdos teams, but Zapdos teams are better and beat Rhydon teams, which are more predictable/i.e. less dynamic, and one of Zap teams' strengths is incentivizing the opponent to bring a Rhydon team.

Caveat: This is only true at the highest level; the opposite is true at lower levels. No one will agree with this now. I know this. But I will leave this here for future vindication. Everyone will eventually agree with this. This is one of the few things in this game in which I have zero doubts now.

To add a little bit more explanation: after talking to the other good players of this game, I am apparently one of the first to learn to play Zapdos teams optimally. I was amazed to hear a good player say to me, and have other really good players agree with him, that bringing Zapdos out mid game was the optimal way to play Zapdos. This is terrible advice. Saving Zapdos for the end game changes everything. Zapdos teams, at least generally, have the advantage in the 5 vs 5! To give credit where credit is due, BKC did say years ago to not bring Zapdos out early. Can't remember if he said to save it for end game, but his overall idea was, "Hey, your opponent might have Rhydon, so it's dumb to bring it out before you know." It amazes me that this isn't just the prevailing opinion among everyone. But... it will be.

 

[Soda_Eesti]

that bringing Zapdos out mid game was the optimal way to play Zapdos.

Do people not do this? I only ever save zapdos for later when I see a rhydon and even then i still use it a lot in shit like doubles to force it in. i almost rarely ever save any mons till the end of the game (Hell i even use shit like kingler a lot of the times mid game to push past stuff or force things.)

Now i have a very important question to ask. Why the hell do people save mons till the end of the game if there are situations mid game where you can get tremendous value. Lately ive also been trying out a playstyle where you just hit whats in front of you on ladder (Like mashing Zam psychic when leading it), and even then i still find myself using a ton of cloy and zapdos mid game. I just dont get it. Ofc i understand things like Sandslash i guess, but even then when i load it, it still gets used mid game as it has value there.

Saving things like tauros till the very end of the game is something i see parroted all the time, which I dont get either. Tauros is a great mid game progress maker than can wildly swing he momentum in your favor yet i still see the idea thrown around, especially by newer players, that you cant get it paralyzed at all and want 0 damage on it. Of course you would like it non paralyzed and healthy but a parad tauros is STILL a fucking tauros. The only thing ill say in their favor is that you shouldnt be suicidal with your tauros. If youre facing a mon with recovery and cant finish it off, WHILE having a wall, just switch out. Dont ASK for your tauros to be paralyzed, even if its rest. But dont be scared to get it parad either.

Atleast thats what I think.

Also, believer, you should never assume your opp has big 6. It would be more beneficial to assume they have MieEggDon than big 6 and even then, DONT DO THAT. LOL.

 

[Leader of the Rockets]

Do people not do this? I only ever save zapdos for later when I see a rhydon and even then i still use it a lot in shit like doubles to force it in. i almost rarely ever save any mons till the end of the game (Hell i even use shit like kingler a lot of the times mid game to push past stuff or force things.)

Now i have a very important question to ask. Why the hell do people save mons till the end of the game if there are situations mid game where you can get tremendous value. Lately ive also been trying out a playstyle where you just hit whats in front of you on ladder (Like mashing Zam psychic when leading it), and even then i still find myself using a ton of cloy and zapdos mid game. I just dont get it. Ofc i understand things like Sandslash i guess, but even then when i load it, it still gets used mid game as it has value there.

Saving things like tauros till the very end of the game is something i see parroted all the time, which I dont get either. Tauros is a great mid game progress maker than can wildly swing he momentum in your favor yet i still see the idea thrown around, especially by newer players, that you cant get it paralyzed at all and want 0 damage on it. Of course you would like it non paralyzed and healthy but a parad tauros is STILL a fucking tauros. The only thing ill say in their favor is that you shouldnt be suicidal with your tauros. If youre facing a mon with recovery and cant finish it off, WHILE having a wall, just switch out. Dont ASK for your tauros to be paralyzed, even if its rest. But dont be scared to get it parad either.

Atleast thats what I think.

Also, believer, you should never assume your opp has big 6. It would be more beneficial to assume they have MieEggDon than big 6 and even then, DONT DO THAT. LOL.

Tauros is amazing mid game and shouldn't be saved till the end game unless the game in progress is dictating that you do so. People who are saving Tauros all the time are missing out on huge momentum swings into their favor. Zapdos coming in mid game can work, but if it comes into Rhydon, it's a huge momentum stopper, and momentum is hugely important with teams that Zapdos should usually be on (it's good to have momentum in general obviously). Zapdos teams don't need Zapdos in the mid game (which is great and very important, because it doesn't really have to worry about Rhydon then), and, coupled with that, Zapdos is so good in the end game. If Zapdos, for some reason, could only realistically work in the midgame, then it would be a subpar pokemon thanks to Rhydon. On top of all this, if you start saving Zapdos for the end game against Rhydon teams, you might discover, as I have, that their teams aren't very conducive to saving Rhydon for Zapdos, which makes the mu go from one in their favor to a mu in your favor.

 

[violet river]

Some teams are more able to bring out a midgame Zapdos than others. For example, if you have a healthy Stun Spore Exeggutor, it's not so big of a deal if they bring out their Rhydon -> you're just going to sponge its attack easily, and return fire. If your team is Jynx/Starmie/Zapdos, you're probably going to bring out zapdos as the last mon always. But if you have a healthy exeggutor mainly, also ideally a cloyster or starmie, etc, you can afford to throw out midgame zapdos because rhydon just isn't all that scary yet