Ok I'm posting this because Alice is lazy (Wobbuffet "discussion")

Those people deserve to lose.

Because they use a fairly effective strategy with dealing with CBchomp? It works, and if you're that afraid of CBchomp but still want Blissey on your team (some people actually do use her because they like her) then its a fairly decent option.

Nothing, because you outspeed wobba and take a chunk out of him/status him, dugtrio would be better in that situation.

You only outspeed a speed based Wobby if you in invest speed EVs yourself, and if then you've gimped your tanking ability. I'd also wager a few people would say specifically EVing every wall to outspeed a max speed Wobby is a slight centralization. You also only do anything to it if you predict correctly, and if you fail to 2HKO you get yourself Mirror Coated/Countered.

If you ever fail to predict the Wobby switch in, you're screwed.
 
But don't forget Softboiling Blissey, and MANY other slower yet bulky pokemon who can't afford to waste most of their EVs on speed just in case a Wobba appears and threatens to PP stall / struggle them to death. IF that is not "overcentralization", I honestly don't know what IS.

I forgot to mention this earlier, but Encore ends when the encored move runs out of PP. Encore then fails until another move is used. Hence, I don't think we'll see a lot of Wobbuffet causing things to Struggle themselves to death.
 
I just don't see how maxing Wob's speed is overcentralizing the metagame. Sure it is definitely a good strategy, but overcentralizing is exagerating a bit. Wob has to invest all of those speed ev's and use a +speed nature to outspeed the walls, which takes away from the ev's he can use elsewhere. I just don't think Wobbuffet should be Uber. He is good, but doesn't overcentralize the game. I mean, by some of the logic shown in this thread, Magnezone should be uber because he makes most Skarmory's use shed shell, and we all know Magnezone is not going to Ubers anytime soon.
 
I'd actually much sooner rather use Doorman's EVs spread and just keep it away from special attackers for the most part. It's not as if taking more damage from special attacks is 100% a bad thing when you're talking about a Mirror Coat user. If we're talking about outpacing popular, walling pokemon with expliotable set-up moves in Skarmory (176-177), Weezing (157), Blissey (147), Swampert (140), Donphan (136), Hippowdon (130), Forretress (104), and Bronzong (91), you realize that of those eight, only Swampert poses the threat of a special attack in Surf (Blissey's Ice Beam does 16.44-19.35% to Seismic Toss's 17.12% which is kind of a wash even with the freeze chance). And it doesn't even matter when a 181 Speed Wobbuffet is switching into Blissey and Swampert anyway, because they won't even have a chance to use Ice Beam and Surf respectively if they didn't on the switch. Therefore your EVs would actually be much better spent in Def and Spe (with 4 in SpD for completeness) if this is the way you plan on using Wobbuffet, since it's not geared towards revenge-killing special-attacking pokes at all and the standard doesn't have 252 in HP for a reason anyway.

And TMN, of course it was predicated on the Encore user picking WW, because he knows he doesn't want to use Brave Bird since he will likely die in two turns or one. If he did not suspect Tickle (which is the real point of this thread), then he would likely either SR again or Roost. Sure, maybe the Wobby user has Magnezone after all, but chances quite literally are that he does not, and therefore using BB on Wobby would be needlessly eventually suicidal when there's a better chance that he will be able to switch out when Wobby's done being annoying (read: when Encore ends or even before that if Wobby uses Counter since WW will actually work first turn). That's how I see it, at least.

For those of you complaining about Wobbuffet still, and/or those of you retarded enough to insult Colin and some members of our staff by proxy, take a page out of Doorman's book and actually use Wobby to show the competitive battling scene how broken it is. And I almost don't want to even believe that most of the top ladder people are refusing to use Wobbuffet on some stubborn principle because that is the most backwards line of thinking I can imagine of a "smart" player. People sitting on their hands and crying about how unfair and unbalanced the metagame is currently is fast becoming one of my biggest pet peeves, especially when they can actually do something about it.
 
I forgot to mention this earlier, but Encore ends when the encored move runs out of PP. Encore then fails until another move is used. Hence, I don't think we'll see a lot of Wobbuffet causing things to Struggle themselves to death.
Really? It should be fixed on Shoddy then. I guess that leaves Tickle + Encore the only viable strategy needs to be discussed now.
 
This totally doesn't help this discussion but it's always funny when your Blissey ends up beating out the Wobbuffet cause you used Protect and end up potentially fucking up 3 of it's PP just to get one off lol.

I've thought about using Leppa Berry Wobbuffet with heavy Wish support though! 16 Encore PP is pretty great!!
 
Destiny Bond should not be ignored.

Let's imagine a scene: Wobbuffet is facing a garchomp, so, what to do now? Encore him predicting a Swords Dance or Counter predicting a demage move like Earthquake? Note that if a error happens here, you will lose wobbuffet without demaging garchomp, or even worse, lose wobbuffet and let garchomp set-up. But Destiny Bond doesn't need predictions. You use destiny bond, in a Swords Dance or in a demage move, now your foe must chose: Kill wobbie and garchomp itself(destiny bond) or using Swords Dance, and if he decides to dance, you just encore him (after destiny bond, the obvious move is encore, almost ever). Now you switch to your dugtrio(if you managed to encore his Swords dance) and kill him.

What i want to show is how good destiny bond is, cause he forces the opponent to kill you or get encored in a non-demaging attack.
 
I see a different stradegy with wobbefett that I noticed before. It almost always to let yourself setup as encore forces a move. Wobbefett Is very great with the correct support. That is my biggest problem with wobbo, is that it traps you, and you can not really do much bare taunt, which might have to be used more. Whose Idea was it to add Wobbo in OU? *on shoddy*.
 
Wob has to invest all of those speed ev's and use a +speed nature to outspeed the walls, which takes away from the ev's he can use elsewhere.

Except he really doesn't need those EV's elsewhere. Especially if you're attempting the Encore+Tickle+CBPursuit strategy, which is sorta the whole discussion. Hardly any tanks threaten Wobb from the special side other then Pert (as Jump noted), so why invest the EVs? We simply want to get a free tank kill, not set up something else or Mirror Coat+Counter it to death. Thats just a plus you can use after you've Pursuited their tank to death.

I mean, by some of the logic shown in this thread, Magnezone should be uber because he makes most Skarmory's use shed shell, and we all know Magnezone is not going to Ubers anytime soon.

Thats only Skarmory though. Not all the other tanks.
 
lol you guys are really overreacting.

This same strategy could be employed more effectively (because it doesn't have you using up extra Encore PP) by just using Magnezone. You can similarly trap and kill grounded foes with a Dugtrio. Weavile and Tyranitar already threaten CB Pursuit on a lot of Pokemon.

And finally, you are taking them down one at a time this way, rather than setting up something like a Belly Drum pass. After you Pursuit their Skarmory, they can bring in whatever to take on Tyranitar.

Also this won't work on Blissey. Blissey has one major threat to Wobbuffet: Toxic. Blissey used Toxic, good luck "stalling" it, regardless of your moveset.

If you like the "one kill a time" approach, you could trap pass with Smeargle / Umbreon (both of which can put their target to sleep with Spore / Yawn) to a Perish Song Celebi.

Here's the problem. All the moderately intelligent players know that Wobbs is Uber material and doesn't belong in the OU metagame.

If you make insinuations against my intelligence one more time, you will be infracted for disrespect for staff. I don't think Wobbuffet is uber material, so the only thing I can draw from your post is that I must be an idiot. I find it far more foolish to insult several staff members.
 
Lets see, walls vs tickleffet

skarmory - just use a shed shell, then you won't fear magnezone either
bliss - toxic/sing
bronzong - hypnosis, could be using a shed shell
celebi - either has baton pass to escape or leech seed to drain wobba
cresselia - why would you bother with wobba instead of going straight to the cb pursuiter?
dusknoir- shadow sneak means he can't be outsped, also if wobba comes in on pain split he'll lose a huge chunk of hp.
forretress- might use a shed shell to escape magnezone anyway, can explode on wobba if he outspeeds.
gliscor- taunt or baton pass
hippowdon- yawn (if he predicts)
Jirachi - has u-turn
magnezone - will probably lose to this, does hit from the special side though
milotic- hypnosis
starmie - surf surf surf
tentacruel - see starmie
swampert -see starmie
vaporeon - blah blah

So most walls can deal with him if they outspeed him, now the ones that don't outspeed at no speed are :
skarmory
blissey
bronzong
forretress
hippowdon
magnezone

Skarm and forretress wouldn't mind a shed shell anyway, wouldn't be too bad on bronzong either.

This means that the end result of this will be either less usage or more speed for:
Blissey - do we really care if this thing is weakened so people might use other special walls?
Hippowdon - declining in usage anyway, he'll still set up SS even if he dies
magnezone - the no spd wobba might have trouble since it can only come in on at most 1 move on any magnezone set

I fail to see how this is really over centralizing.
 
Also this won't work on Blissey. Blissey has one major threat to Wobbuffet: Toxic. Blissey used Toxic, good luck "stalling" it, regardless of your moveset.

But this can work on Blissey, if you come in on Softboiled and encore it.
 
I think we should we should call it "Fore Play" or something >_>

but this is just hilarious, I love more reasons to add to the 2 stories of papers to ban the wobb.
That being said, I say to you to CONTRIBUTE and use Wobb "effectively" to get him banned.
 
Blissey - do we really care if this thing is weakened so people might use other special walls?

Before I get to anything else (in class), how would other special walls beat this? Cresselia will fall for the same trick, and I can't see anyone else being able to do much.

Also, I would personally love to have something that wrecks walls to the point where they simply cannot restore their HP or get totally fucked over. Just start wailing on the tank, and if they get into HP restore range, out comes Wobby, and they're now dead.
 
I had a much more well written post than this, but Microsoft Word decided to crash on me and I'm really pissed off. You must know how it feels when you put a lot of effort into a post and have to do it all again from scratch, it's never the same. So take that into account when reading this, I guess.. :(

I feel that this strategy is very clever, very annoying, but clever none the less. Everyone's coming up with ways to stop it, mainly involving our "trusted" walls changing what they do slightly to counter this "new threat". But honestly, would they be doing what they're meant to do as effectively if they had to worry about Wobbuffet as well? I personally believe Wobbuffet can be more threatening than the aformentioned Dgutrio & Magnezone (as stated by Obi). The reason is simple, you can trap everything and lock them into an attack, this works against basically everything not using a boosted attack, or rather powerful super effective attack, but you're usually going to have a counter to them if using Wobbuffet, right?

I see a lot more Thunder Wave Blissey than Toxic Blissey, I know you, Obi, love to use Toxic Blissey more often. But most people opt for Thunder Wave to hopefully slow down incoming physical attackers. If Wobbuffet comes in on Thunder Wave, there's a high chance you're going to be locked into Thunder Wave after the Encore. Since everyone else is being very situational as usual, I'll say Wobbuffet is holding a Lum Berry in order to escape that occasionally hindering Sleep or Paralysis, or even Poison status. If you want to paralyse this Wobbuffet, go ahead and get encored. That's perfect bait for a Dugtrio switch in, while you're locked into Encore. Dugtrio not having to worry about that Ice Beam, or whatever other attacking moves you have anymore. You can argue that Dugtrio could just switch in on its own to beat Blissey, but that usually requires weakening it substantially first. Having it locked into Thunder Wave would be an added bonus. Blissey can switch against anything else that uses Encore, but not Wobbuffet. This might seem like a lot of effort, but if you think about it,, isn't it less effort than having your whole team collectively focusing on ridding of that special walls HP enough so Dugtrio can pick it off for a sweep with a special attacker? Don't get me wrong, but I think that's a lot cheaper than having to work hard to pull of your sweep or rid of a problem Pokémon.

This list posted by user "the artic one" confused me, just a little:

skarmory - just use a shed shell, then you won't fear magnezone either
bliss - toxic/sing
bronzong - hypnosis, could be using a shed shell
celebi - either has baton pass to escape or leech seed to drain wobba
cresselia - why would you bother with wobba instead of going straight to the cb pursuiter?
dusknoir- shadow sneak means he can't be outsped, also if wobba comes in on pain split he'll lose a huge chunk of hp.
forretress- might use a shed shell to escape magnezone anyway, can explode on wobba if he outspeeds.
gliscor- taunt or baton pass
hippowdon- yawn (if he predicts)
Jirachi - has u-turn
magnezone - will probably lose to this, does hit from the special side though
milotic- hypnosis
starmie - surf surf surf
tentacruel - see starmie
swampert -see starmie
vaporeon - blah blah

Now then, Skarmory has been explained already. Occasionally people will use a Shed Shell so they can definately get Spikes and/or Stealth Rock down. However, I feel that the majority of the time Skarmory is the physical wall first, and the spiker second. Thus it will want Leftovers more often than Shed Shell. Too much empahasis is being made on Shed Shell, I'd like to stay away from it really. Blissey, IMO, wants to use Thunder Wave a little more often than Toxic or Sing, nor does it want to use a bit of a Speed investment. Bronzong can threaten with Hypnosis, but if Wobbuffet comes in on any other attack, which is likely, you're done. Celebi is likely to escape if it's a baton passer varient, but I've actually seen less passers these days, and generally see few U-turners, but I'd imagine they're more common than I thought. I don't think Wobbuffet is a great switch in to Celebi, though. With Cresselia, you can at least scout its moveset easier, but you are better off switching straight to your Pursuiter. Dusknoir would match up okay. Forretress is just as bad as Skarmory really, and I wouldn't want to use Shed Shell for the same reason as Skarmory. Plus the fact it lacks a recovery move. Gliscor using Taunt or Baton Pass isn't as common as the general physical wall set, but it's safe if it is using either attack, but that means it's not a wall, it's a baton passer. Hippowdon doesn't want to have to have Yawn all the time to deal with Wobbuffet, and once you've put something else to sleep you can't do it anymore. Jirachi does generally have U-turn so you'll be okay more often than not. Again with Milotic, once your Sleep is used up Wobbuffet would have a bit of fun with you. But if you get the Sleep in on a none Lum Berry version, fair enough. Everything else is pretty laughable, or are you completely forgetting Wobbuffet has Mirror Coat and Counter?

Anyway, Wobbuffet should stay Uber IMO. I might go as far to say it's something that's more annoying than "broken", but I still think it's broken and support it being banished to the Uber tier completely.
 
If you max Wobbuffet's Speed to beat the walls, your Wobbuffet is drastically less effective in other situations, because it will take hits much worse. You need those EVs to pump your defenses.
 
I'd sacrifice the ability to be more effective in other situations for the ability to guarantee a kill on the most common walls.
 
I'm concerned that Jolly Tickle Wobbuffet might actually be an impossible set ingame. Notably, I can't seem to find any evidence to suggest that it is legal. After much searching on the internet, I have been able to find only this thread with any information about someone who actually has one of the event Wynaut:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28090

It is a Lonely nature which for the forgetful is +atk -def (obviously a completely horrible nature for Wobbuffet). It's not uncommon for event Pokemon to be nature limited, and with the near total lack of information on the Pokemon originating from this Poke Park event I'm unsure if it's reasonable to allow it in venues such as Shoddy Battle (this also affects Encore Cacnea who is mildly notable). It might be best to either ban event moves altogether or at least restrict them to events in which we have very clear information. If it's impossible for a Tickle Wobbuffet to have a +spd nature, it's impossible for it to outspeed a 0 EV Skarmory and the other walls need 64 fewer speed EVs to outspeed it which is a pretty big deal! For those who enjoy the theorymon side of things, it would also allow max speed Snorlax to "win" the race to go first with a Tickle Wobbuffet which he currently cannot.

For that matter, the number of places that even acknowledge the event happened is small. My reference FAQ on gamefaqs has a section where I attribute having seen the event mentioned on pokefor back in the day, and serebii acknowledges the event as well claiming it always has a silly nickname (which makes no sense given that he also says you get it as an egg, and as we all know, you are asked if you want to nickname a Pokemon when it hatches).

Do people have opinions on this? In the past it hadn't mattered, but if Tickle Wobbuffet is going to make itself obnoxious, I think we need to clarify whether what's being used is even legal at all though I wonder if something that's pretty much impossible to obtain ingame should be allowed regardless.
 
If you max Wobbuffet's Speed to beat the walls, your Wobbuffet is drastically less effective in other situations, because it will take hits much worse. You need those EVs to pump your defenses.

And? You completely ruin one of their big tanks which can make a sweep much easier. You could even manage this on every tank on the team if they let Wobby walk out of it.

And I'm still not sold on Shed Shell getting rid of this problem. Shed Shell will work once, then you have to kill Wobby before bringing back in that tank. If you keep Wobby alive, you're basically making their tank useless because it is too afraid to do anything.

Also if you have a sweeper beating on a tank, and they mispredict a Wobby switch and attack, you can kill them before they have a chance to heal off the damage. It seems like the only way for these tanks to deal with Wobby is god like prediction 100% of the time, otherwise they get themselves killed with minimal effort.
 
I think 'very clear information' may be, ironically, somewhat subjective (although I could be wrong). It might be cleaner just to ban all event moves.
 
I'm concerned that Jolly Tickle Wobbuffet might actually be an impossible set ingame. Notably, I can't seem to find any evidence to suggest that it is legal. After much searching on the internet, I have been able to find only this thread with any information about someone who actually has one of the event Wynaut:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28090

It is a Lonely nature which for the forgetful is +atk -def (obviously a completely horrible nature for Wobbuffet). It's not uncommon for event Pokemon to be nature limited, and with the near total lack of information on the Pokemon originating from this Poke Park event I'm unsure if it's reasonable to allow it in venues such as Shoddy Battle (this also affects Encore Cacnea who is mildly notable). It might be best to either ban event moves altogether or at least restrict them to events in which we have very clear information. If it's impossible for a Tickle Wobbuffet to have a +spd nature, it's impossible for it to outspeed a 0 EV Skarmory and the other walls need 64 fewer speed EVs to outspeed it which is a pretty big deal! For those who enjoy the theorymon side of things, it would also allow max speed Snorlax to "win" the race to go first with a Tickle Wobbuffet which he currently cannot.

For that matter, the number of places that even acknowledge the event happened is small. My reference FAQ on gamefaqs has a section where I attribute having seen the event mentioned on pokefor back in the day, and serebii acknowledges the event as well claiming it always has a silly nickname (which makes no sense given that he also says you get it as an egg, and as we all know, you are asked if you want to nickname a Pokemon when it hatches).

Do people have opinions on this? In the past it hadn't mattered, but if Tickle Wobbuffet is going to make itself obnoxious, I think we need to clarify whether what's being used is even legal at all though I wonder if something that's pretty much impossible to obtain ingame should be allowed regardless.

I know that Tickle Wynaut was indeed given out at the Poke Park from March 12th - May 8th in 2005. It was an egg, so therefore could be hatched and have any Nature & IVs.

However, I did once ask the question "What was Smogon's stance on Event Pokémon that had special moves, but had to have a certain nature". I can't seem to find the post now, so it must've been ignored & deleted. I think it's a question that needs answering.
 
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