Project Metagame Workshop

[CaioXLive12]

Rock-Paper-Chan!
Premise: All teams will consist of only 2-3 hitmonchans. They'll have the 3 following moves: Upper Hand, Focus Punch and Mach Punch, which will lead to a Rock-Paper-Scissor Match:

- Upper Hand beats Mach Punch, but loses to Focus Punch
- Mach Punch beats Focus Punch, but loses to Upper Hand
- Focus Punch beats Upper Hand but loses to Mach Punch

Banlist:
- All other moves except Upper Hand, Mach Punch and Focus Punch
- All other mons except Hitmonchan
- Terastal is banned.

Alternatively, instead of building a team, showdown could give you for the battle 2 hitmonchans, just like in randoms.

Questions:
- Can we code so that both Pokémons cant attack if both use the same move?

 

[grovylestand!]

that already exists in a form as a 1v1 1 chan format where they all have upper hand mach punch and focus punch.

 

[Delibird Heart]

High Noon
​

Premise: The speed stat no longer exists. In fact, the turn order no longer exists ! All actions happen simultaneously, and the results are evaluated at the end of the turn.

So let's say you have Cinderace vs Metagross for example. Cinderace clicks Pyro Ball, killing Metagross. In a normal game, because Cinderace is faster, it stops here. But here, because everything is simultaneous, Metagross also gets to click EQ and kill Cinderace back.

Another thing to consider is the way healing works here: Since you can heal even on a turn where you would die, until a turn ends and everything is properly evaluated, you can overheal (but all overheal returns to 100% at the end of a turn), or get overkilled, because else things get messy (for example if you can only be damaged down to 0% then spamming recover effectively makes you immortal). To avoid ties, if the last 2 mons kill eachother, the one who got overkilled the most loses. So in the case of the Cinderace vs Metagross scenario from earlier, assuming they were both at 100% and each of them was the last mon on their trainer's team:

(They would run max HP/bulk cause speed is useless.)
252+ Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 318-374 (87.3 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 312-368 (85.7 - 101%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Ok well I didnt expect them to live actually but lets pretend they both got the absolute maxroll -> Cinderace wins, because he did the most damage.


Status moves that would affect the other pokemon's move (Taunt, boosting your defenses, setting up terrain or a weather condition, etc...) are considered to take effect starting from the next turn (although this could be changed).

An exception is priority moves, which will still behave normally; if you kill something with priority, everything will happen as it would in normal game. Same if you die before using a negative prio move.

This has all sorts of interesting implications, such as:
- Bulkier mons or mons that have huge offenses but no speed become better.
- Purely offensive set up moves like Swords Dance or Nasty Plot aren't as good anymore, as even if you can ohko everything, you'll still take damage from them before. Stuff like bulk up/curse is favored instead (defense boosts only apply starting from the next turn however, consistently with the way status works).
- Sturdy becomes much better, as a mon living on 1% guarantees it will get another move off, even if it's slow (Any Forretress fans in the audience?)
- All pivoting is slow pivoting. This makes defensive pivots much better, but it's also weird because it's not like your switch in can outspeed on the next turn.
- Drain moves become much stronger, as they allow you to stay alive on a turn you would have otherwise died (Primarina, hatterene, and probably some grass types with stab giga drain become much better)
- And probably a bunch of other stuff, too ! This premise seems decently unique, I don't think I've heard of something like that before. There are probably still some rule points that need clarification I guess, but thats why the workshop thread exists :)

(I called it High Noon because in cowboy movies everyone turns around and shoots at the same time in the duel scenes, kinda)

 

[Cuddly]

Epyt Wen
​

Metagame Premise: In this metagame, every Pokemon’s typing is replaced by the typing that matches its reverse alphabetical order type (not including Stellar).

Example:

Pikachu is an Electric type and Electric the 4th type when you list each type alphabetically. So in this Metagame, Pikachu’s type would become the 4th last type, which is Psychic.

Charizard is a Fire/Flying type. Fire is the 7th type in alphabetical order, and Flying is 8th. In this metagame, Charizard would become an Ice/Ground type as Ice and Ground are the 7th and 8th last types alphabetically.

Every type conversion:
Bug -> Water
Dark -> Steel
Dragon -> Rock
Electric -> Psychic
Fairy -> Poison
Fighting -> Normal
Fire -> Ice
Flying -> Ground
Ghost -> Grass
Grass -> Ghost
Ground -> Flying
Ice -> Fire
Normal -> Fighting
Poison -> Fairy
Psychic -> Electric
Rock -> Dragon
Steel -> Dark
Water -> Bug

Potential Threats and “un-Threats”:

With Pokemon getting a bunch of new typings, some of them are buffed having a better type. Others get nerfed by losing their STABs and getting worse typings.
Annihilape goes from a Fighting/Ghost type tona Normal/Grass type. Being worse both defensively and losing that amazing STAB combo especially STAB Rage Fist, might cause Annihilape to be ok in the Meta.
Espathra isn’t so bad, but still loses out on STAB from Stored Power or any STAB at all.
Regieleki swaps types with Espathra, losing out in STAB entirely. Making its Thunderbolts and Volt Switches far weaker.
And Iron Bundle becomes terrible. Having Volcarona’s old typing and its only Bug move being U-turn, it is no longer such a massive threat.


Some Pokemon end up being completely unchanged. This gives them an edge as they don’t have to worry about changing up anything. Keeping their STABs and all.


Some Pokemon do get buffed thanks to 1 change or another.
Kommo-o becomes a Rock/Normal type. This typing is worse defensively, but as you might have guessed, gives Kommo-o valuable STAB on Boomburst.
Ting-Lu is already hard to take down, but now becomes a Steel/Flying type. Having only 1 weaknesses, 2 immunities, and an immunity to Poison/Toxic.
We also have Garganacl which is now a Pure Dragon type. Garg never really cared about its own STAB, so replacing its weakness filled Rock typing with one that has many resistances is a huge buff.
Some more arguably buffed Pokemon:
Normal/Dark with STAB Extreme Speed
Quark Drive Electric types with Electric being way better defensively than Psychic.
Dragon/Steel keeping its Sand immunity for a much stronger defensive typing.
Fairing much better with Electric and having Levitate too.

Questions:
-Should moves also be including in the changing of typings? This would change the viability of some Pokemon such as Kommo-o and Lucario missing out on STAB. However changing each move too would let most Pokemon keep their STABs.
-Would a different order be appropriate? Such as each type justing 9 places? Which would mean Bug becomes Ghost, Dark becomes Grass, etc.

 

[grovylestand!]

High Noon
​

Premise: The speed stat no longer exists. In fact, the turn order no longer exists ! All actions happen simultaneously, and the results are evaluated at the end of the turn.

So let's say you have Cinderace vs Metagross for example. Cinderace clicks Pyro Ball, killing Metagross. In a normal game, because Cinderace is faster, it stops here. But here, because everything is simultaneous, Metagross also gets to click EQ and kill Cinderace back.

Another thing to consider is the way healing works here: Since you can heal even on a turn where you would die, until a turn ends and everything is properly evaluated, you can overheal (but all overheal returns to 100% at the end of a turn), or get overkilled, because else things get messy (for example if you can only be damaged down to 0% then spamming recover effectively makes you immortal). To avoid ties, if the last 2 mons kill eachother, the one who got overkilled the most loses. So in the case of the Cinderace vs Metagross scenario from earlier, assuming they were both at 100% and each of them was the last mon on their trainer's team:

(They would run max HP/bulk cause speed is useless.)
252+ Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 318-374 (87.3 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 312-368 (85.7 - 101%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Ok well I didnt expect them to live actually but lets pretend they both got the absolute maxroll -> Cinderace wins, because he did the most damage.


Status moves that would affect the other pokemon's move (Taunt, boosting your defenses, setting up terrain or a weather condition, etc...) are considered to take effect starting from the next turn (although this could be changed).

An exception is priority moves, which will still behave normally; if you kill something with priority, everything will happen as it would in normal game. Same if you die before using a negative prio move.

This has all sorts of interesting implications, such as:
- Bulkier mons or mons that have huge offenses but no speed become better.
- Purely offensive set up moves like Swords Dance or Nasty Plot aren't as good anymore, as even if you can ohko everything, you'll still take damage from them before. Stuff like bulk up/curse is favored instead (defense boosts only apply starting from the next turn however, consistently with the way status works).
- Sturdy becomes much better, as a mon living on 1% guarantees it will get another move off, even if it's slow (Any Forretress fans in the audience?)
- All pivoting is slow pivoting. This makes defensive pivots much better, but it's also weird because it's not like your switch in can outspeed on the next turn.
- Drain moves become much stronger, as they allow you to stay alive on a turn you would have otherwise died (Primarina, hatterene, and probably some grass types with stab giga drain become much better)
- And probably a bunch of other stuff, too ! This premise seems decently unique, I don't think I've heard of something like that before. There are probably still some rule points that need clarification I guess, but thats why the workshop thread exists :)

(I called it High Noon because in cowboy movies everyone turns around and shoots at the same time in the duel scenes, kinda)

i like this concept ill look into strategies. presumably weird abilities like stakeout would be banned but has potential

 

[grovylestand!]

now the concept is great but im not sure how it would be implemented. like how does prio work and most importantly how do same turn boosts realistically apply?

 

[Ihateclodsire]

Hi, I don’t know if this counts as an OM, but it can’t be an unnoficial meta since it’s not possible on cartridge, but I thonk
An ADV metagame where Pokemon can use moves that they lost from the gens 2-3 shift would be fun, like giving dragonite a niche over salamence or thanks to it having Espeed, or being able to use lovely kiss Snorlax and Nidoking

 

[Cuddly]

High Noon
​

Premise: The speed stat no longer exists. In fact, the turn order no longer exists ! All actions happen simultaneously, and the results are evaluated at the end of the turn.

So let's say you have Cinderace vs Metagross for example. Cinderace clicks Pyro Ball, killing Metagross. In a normal game, because Cinderace is faster, it stops here. But here, because everything is simultaneous, Metagross also gets to click EQ and kill Cinderace back.

Another thing to consider is the way healing works here: Since you can heal even on a turn where you would die, until a turn ends and everything is properly evaluated, you can overheal (but all overheal returns to 100% at the end of a turn), or get overkilled, because else things get messy (for example if you can only be damaged down to 0% then spamming recover effectively makes you immortal). To avoid ties, if the last 2 mons kill eachother, the one who got overkilled the most loses. So in the case of the Cinderace vs Metagross scenario from earlier, assuming they were both at 100% and each of them was the last mon on their trainer's team:

(They would run max HP/bulk cause speed is useless.)
252+ Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 318-374 (87.3 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 312-368 (85.7 - 101%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Ok well I didnt expect them to live actually but lets pretend they both got the absolute maxroll -> Cinderace wins, because he did the most damage.


Status moves that would affect the other pokemon's move (Taunt, boosting your defenses, setting up terrain or a weather condition, etc...) are considered to take effect starting from the next turn (although this could be changed).

An exception is priority moves, which will still behave normally; if you kill something with priority, everything will happen as it would in normal game. Same if you die before using a negative prio move.

This has all sorts of interesting implications, such as:
- Bulkier mons or mons that have huge offenses but no speed become better.
- Purely offensive set up moves like Swords Dance or Nasty Plot aren't as good anymore, as even if you can ohko everything, you'll still take damage from them before. Stuff like bulk up/curse is favored instead (defense boosts only apply starting from the next turn however, consistently with the way status works).
- Sturdy becomes much better, as a mon living on 1% guarantees it will get another move off, even if it's slow (Any Forretress fans in the audience?)
- All pivoting is slow pivoting. This makes defensive pivots much better, but it's also weird because it's not like your switch in can outspeed on the next turn.
- Drain moves become much stronger, as they allow you to stay alive on a turn you would have otherwise died (Primarina, hatterene, and probably some grass types with stab giga drain become much better)
- And probably a bunch of other stuff, too ! This premise seems decently unique, I don't think I've heard of something like that before. There are probably still some rule points that need clarification I guess, but thats why the workshop thread exists :)

(I called it High Noon because in cowboy movies everyone turns around and shoots at the same time in the duel scenes, kinda)

This entire post feels like that explaination of what blind people see by imagining looking out your elbow. It legitimately doesn’t make any sense.
Turn order is a massive part of the game and how the game even functions to begin with. Aside from the fact that the entire game is balanced around that idea, where faster Pokemon are typically frailer and weaker to compensate for how fast they are, tons of mechanics rely on turn order.
What are you gonna do about weather and terrain being set the same turn? How would Libero in that example work if say Cinderace used U-turn? How would you handle Metagross using Meteor Mash and getting an Atk boost? What about Protect? What about flinching moves? What happens when your item changes like when Knock Off removes a Choice Band? If this were doubles, what would happen if your Pokemon use Scald into the same target, both burn, but the target is holding a Lum Berry? What happens when both players knock out each other’s Pokemon by a direct attack?
Again, that’s only mentioning the technical problems. This entire metagame idea would invalidate a majority of Pokemon, as well as a good chunk of moves and abilities becoming useless or near useless. Agility? Dragon Dance? Trick Room? Swift Swim? Speed Boost? All of these things are now useless or complete dogshit.
Might as well only run the bulkiest and hardest hitting Pokemon, only being concerned how much harder your toy can hit vs your opponents.

 

[Lectrys]

High Noon
​

Premise: The speed stat no longer exists. In fact, the turn order no longer exists ! All actions happen simultaneously, and the results are evaluated at the end of the turn.

So let's say you have Cinderace vs Metagross for example. Cinderace clicks Pyro Ball, killing Metagross. In a normal game, because Cinderace is faster, it stops here. But here, because everything is simultaneous, Metagross also gets to click EQ and kill Cinderace back.

Another thing to consider is the way healing works here: Since you can heal even on a turn where you would die, until a turn ends and everything is properly evaluated, you can overheal (but all overheal returns to 100% at the end of a turn), or get overkilled, because else things get messy (for example if you can only be damaged down to 0% then spamming recover effectively makes you immortal). To avoid ties, if the last 2 mons kill eachother, the one who got overkilled the most loses. So in the case of the Cinderace vs Metagross scenario from earlier, assuming they were both at 100% and each of them was the last mon on their trainer's team:

(They would run max HP/bulk cause speed is useless.)
252+ Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 318-374 (87.3 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 312-368 (85.7 - 101%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Ok well I didnt expect them to live actually but lets pretend they both got the absolute maxroll -> Cinderace wins, because he did the most damage.


Status moves that would affect the other pokemon's move (Taunt, boosting your defenses, setting up terrain or a weather condition, etc...) are considered to take effect starting from the next turn (although this could be changed).

An exception is priority moves, which will still behave normally; if you kill something with priority, everything will happen as it would in normal game. Same if you die before using a negative prio move.

This has all sorts of interesting implications, such as:
- Bulkier mons or mons that have huge offenses but no speed become better.
- Purely offensive set up moves like Swords Dance or Nasty Plot aren't as good anymore, as even if you can ohko everything, you'll still take damage from them before. Stuff like bulk up/curse is favored instead (defense boosts only apply starting from the next turn however, consistently with the way status works).
- Sturdy becomes much better, as a mon living on 1% guarantees it will get another move off, even if it's slow (Any Forretress fans in the audience?)
- All pivoting is slow pivoting. This makes defensive pivots much better, but it's also weird because it's not like your switch in can outspeed on the next turn.
- Drain moves become much stronger, as they allow you to stay alive on a turn you would have otherwise died (Primarina, hatterene, and probably some grass types with stab giga drain become much better)
- And probably a bunch of other stuff, too ! This premise seems decently unique, I don't think I've heard of something like that before. There are probably still some rule points that need clarification I guess, but thats why the workshop thread exists :)

(I called it High Noon because in cowboy movies everyone turns around and shoots at the same time in the duel scenes, kinda)

I'm seeing just as many nightmares programming this and nasty implications regarding moves as with this proposed OM from 2024, "My Turn", where each player takes their turns at completely different times and players do not input their moves/switches simultaneously like they usually do: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/metagame-workshop.3709907/post-10315178

For nasty implications, priority is wiped out in both your OM and "My Turn", and abilities that raise priority such as Prankster go through similar wipeout hell.

Admittedly, your OM has the additional problems of Flinch either not working at all or only working the next turn, and moves like Focus Punch and Beak Blast having strange timing logistics (say they use Focus Punch and you use Ice Punch simultaneously - do they punch you or not? Do they flinch next turn or not?).

 

[Delibird Heart]

This entire post feels like that explaination of what blind people see by imagining looking out your elbow. It legitimately doesn’t make any sense.
Turn order is a massive part of the game and how the game even functions to begin with. Aside from the fact that the entire game is balanced around that idea, where faster Pokemon are typically frailer and weaker to compensate for how fast they are, tons of mechanics rely on turn order.
What are you gonna do about weather and terrain being set the same turn? How would Libero in that example work if say Cinderace used U-turn? How would you handle Metagross using Meteor Mash and getting an Atk boost? What about Protect? What about flinching moves? What happens when your item changes like when Knock Off removes a Choice Band? If this were doubles, what would happen if your Pokemon use Scald into the same target, both burn, but the target is holding a Lum Berry? What happens when both players knock out each other’s Pokemon by a direct attack?
Again, that’s only mentioning the technical problems. This entire metagame idea would invalidate a majority of Pokemon, as well as a good chunk of moves and abilities becoming useless or near useless. Agility? Dragon Dance? Trick Room? Swift Swim? Speed Boost? All of these things are now useless or complete dogshit.
Might as well only run the bulkiest and hardest hitting Pokemon, only being concerned how much harder your toy can hit vs your opponents.

Maybe it wasnt extremely clear, but I feel like several of these were explained in the post:

1) Priority and negative priority still work as expected. So like if you have Scizor out and Bullet Punch kills your target, they die before getting to use their move. This was in the post.

2) I also said in the post that lingering effects of moves (such as meteor mash getting an atk raise) only start being applied from the next turn (which in the case of meteor mash is what would happen anyways in the real game???). I do admit there are confusing interactions like the one with Libero, and I said that at the end of my post as well, that theres probably some stuff that still needs to be figured out, but thats part of, you know, workshopping an OM :)

This one here is an argument I can't take in good faith.

3) "This OM would invalidate a lot of pokemon therefore its bad!!". This argument makes ZERO SENSE. EVERY tier invalidates some pokemon, OM or not!! You won't do very well using a Skwovet in OU. Fast frail pokemons are useless in Twisted Dimensions. A lot of abilities are bad in AAA and theres like a selection of 20-30 optimal viable abilities to use. Defensive pokemon like Blissey are bad in Linked because they can't stand up to double attacks. The list goes on and on... I don't see what the problem is in that ? You should also consider that a lot of pokemon becoming worse / not as good means a lot pokemon that arent good in regular play are gonna become better, you know, almost like some sort of,,,, OTHER,,, METAGAME??????

4) Technical problems schmenical problems. Biomechmons was accepted. If its really that difficult I could help code it or even do it myself entirely, its what I do for a living :)

5) Answering Lectrys, first of all thank you for being much more agreeable when pointing out flaws in my idea and actually making sense when doing it lol

The priority thing I already covered, but focus punch would work as it does normally, because Focus Punch is a negative priority move. As for flinch, I hadn't really thought about it, but flinch next turn seems the most consistent with what I've established before so we can go with that. Thanks for bringing it up !

 

[grovylestand!]

OMG FELLOW PROGRAMMER OMGOMGOMG... yeah its hard to code but the prio thing makes sense cause speed not turn order is removed. how does fpunch work?

 

[Lectrys]

Maybe it wasnt extremely clear, but I feel like several of these were explained in the post:

1) Priority and negative priority still work as expected. So like if you have Scizor out and Bullet Punch kills your target, they die before getting to use their move. This was in the post.

2) I also said in the post that lingering effects of moves (such as meteor mash getting an atk raise) only start being applied from the next turn (which in the case of meteor mash is what would happen anyways in the real game???). I do admit there are confusing interactions like the one with Libero, and I said that at the end of my post as well, that theres probably some stuff that still needs to be figured out, but thats part of, you know, workshopping an OM :)

This one here is an argument I can't take in good faith.

3) "This OM would invalidate a lot of pokemon therefore its bad!!". This argument makes ZERO SENSE. EVERY tier invalidates some pokemon, OM or not!! You won't do very well using a Skwovet in OU. Fast frail pokemons are useless in Twisted Dimensions. A lot of abilities are bad in AAA and theres like a selection of 20-30 optimal viable abilities to use. Defensive pokemon like Blissey are bad in Linked because they can't stand up to double attacks. The list goes on and on... I don't see what the problem is in that ? You should also consider that a lot of pokemon becoming worse / not as good means a lot pokemon that arent good in regular play are gonna become better, you know, almost like some sort of,,,, OTHER,,, METAGAME??????

4) Technical problems schmenical problems. Biomechmons was accepted. If its really that difficult I could help code it or even do it myself entirely, its what I do for a living :)

5) Answering Lectrys, first of all thank you for being much more agreeable when pointing out flaws in my idea and actually making sense when doing it lol

The priority thing I already covered, but focus punch would work as it does normally, because Focus Punch is a negative priority move. As for flinch, I hadn't really thought about it, but flinch next turn seems the most consistent with what I've established before so we can go with that. Thanks for bringing it up !

My brain did somehow completely ignore the "priority is not ignored" paragraph of your post...

...possibly because it invalidates part of your premise and therefore makes the OM self-inconsistent. While no priority is arguably the even bigger programming (mainly software architecture resolving previously changed-priority moves like Beak Blast) nightmare, keeping priority but having all moves in the same priority bracket happen at the same time is hard enough to program.

When it's this easy to skip over the "priority still works" part of the rules (or at least it publicly happened twice), your premise has a problem. At least "My Turn" strived as hard as possible to keep players' turns completely separate and therefore not be self-inconsistent.

 

[Cuddly]

1) Priority and negative priority still work as expected. So like if you have Scizor out and Bullet Punch kills your target, they die before getting to use their move. This was in the post.

This just makes things more confusing. So priority just so happens to turn off the entire metagame? What happens if 2 players use priority? It’s inconsistent.

2) I also said in the post that lingering effects of moves (such as meteor mash getting an atk raise) only start being applied from the next turn (which in the case of meteor mash is what would happen anyways in the real game???). I do admit there are confusing interactions like the one with Libero, and I said that at the end of my post as well, that theres probably some stuff that still needs to be figured out, but thats part of, you know, workshopping an OM :)

This implementation is fine for scenarios involving 1 Pokemon doing it.
This issue becomes when both Pokemon use same type of move.
What happens if Torkoal and Pelipper are sent out on the same turn? Speed determines which weather gets set as it would set Rain first as Pelipper is faster, then have Sun override the Rain as Torkoal sets Sun afterwards.
Or what about that double burn vs lum berry that I mentioned earlier? That also depends on turn order.
And most importantly, who wins in cases of double ko?

3) "This OM would invalidate a lot of pokemon therefore its bad!!". This argument makes ZERO SENSE. EVERY tier invalidates some pokemon, OM or not!! You won't do very well using a Skwovet in OU. Fast frail pokemons are useless in Twisted Dimensions. A lot of abilities are bad in AAA and theres like a selection of 20-30 optimal viable abilities to use. Defensive pokemon like Blissey are bad in Linked because they can't stand up to double attacks. The list goes on and on... I don't see what the problem is in that ? You should also consider that a lot of pokemon becoming worse / not as good means a lot pokemon that arent good in regular play are gonna become better, you know, almost like some sort of,,,, OTHER,,, METAGAME??????

First and formost, most OM actually buff most Pokemon. Like STABmons giving Sableye any Ghost or Dark type move that isn’t banned. STABmons might have some Pokemon worse off than others because they didn’t get buffed enough compared to others, or makes a Pokemon that counters them more prominent. That doesn’t apply to everything and the negative impact is less sever than the positive impact.
What you’re proposing is essentially Ursaluna the Metagame. What’s the point of running any archetype other than Trick Room team, but without Trick Room? The only stats that matter now are bulk and offenses. No need to worry about those pesky faster Pokemon using their speed advantage to KO you before you get an attack off. Just run 6 strong and bulky wallbreakers, and just bash your toys together until someone wins.
There is a reason why Trick Room is limited in the base game. It’s because speed is a core function of Pokemon and lots of balance decisions are made around speed.
Even if you get past the technical issues, you are still dealing with the issue that any Pokemon that was designed with speed being their main weakness having said weakness removed will dominate the metagame.

 

[Crazyxd]

Ok I have an idea, but it's pure rng mess but it sounds really interesting to me but it's fine you don't like it
Chaotic Background:
Basically on any turn there is a chance for a random weather, terrain, room or even one of the combined pledge moves effect to appear for a limited number turns (to be honest I think 3 is balanced) any before you say 'trick room is hell' we can make the problematic and strong background effect to be really rare while sliding the chance to the more less severe ones maybe like terrains has 30% to appear with 1/4 chance from it for each terrain to appear, so wdyt? (let's hope this doesn't already exist)

 

[DragonPhoenix333]

so take everything i say with a grain of salt because i am not delibird heart, however i do think there are some problematic points here

This just makes things more confusing. So priority just so happens to turn off the entire metagame?

This is true but i guess the premise essentially boils down to "speed doesnt matter", and

What happens if 2 players use priority? It’s inconsistent.

idk what you're saying is inconsistent considering you just asked a question and called whatever the answer is inconsistent. i could think of priority on same turn just works like neither of you used priority if you are in the same priority bracket or if youre in different it just works like regular priority

This implementation is fine for scenarios involving 1 Pokemon doing it.
This issue becomes when both Pokemon use same type of move.
What happens if Torkoal and Pelipper are sent out on the same turn? Speed determines which weather gets set as it would set Rain first as Pelipper is faster, then have Sun override the Rain as Torkoal sets Sun afterwards.
Or what about that double burn vs lum berry that I mentioned earlier? That also depends on turn order.

presumably this is a singles based om so idt these would be relevant, that being said i could see it being problematic if somebody tries to challenge a doubles game with this added as a mod but idt thats relevant to an om's initial creation?

And most importantly, who wins in cases of double ko?

This is actually covered by OP.

To avoid ties, if the last 2 mons kill eachother, the one who got overkilled the most loses.

yeah please actually read thanks.

First and formost, most OM actually buff most Pokemon. Like STABmons giving Sableye any Ghost or Dark type move that isn’t banned. STABmons might have some Pokemon worse off than others because they didn’t get buffed enough compared to others, or makes a Pokemon that counters them more prominent. That doesn’t apply to everything and the negative impact is less sever than the positive impact.

cmon man what are we saying... if you look at twisted dimensions it also buffs pokemon and significantly nerfs others... i dont see how buffing or nerfing being close to each other in terms of pokemon impacted is really a bad thing

What you’re proposing is essentially Ursaluna the Metagame. What’s the point of running any archetype other than Trick Room team, but without Trick Room? The only stats that matter now are bulk and offenses. No need to worry about those pesky faster Pokemon using their speed advantage to KO you before you get an attack off. Just run 6 strong and bulky wallbreakers, and just bash your toys together until someone wins.

"the only stats that matter now are bulk and offenses"... oh no only 5 out of 6 stats are applicable, that's such a big deal!!!! seriously, are we ignoring the existence of defensive pokemon now? also mons like hatt that can draining kiss even after they fall below 0% hp and heal back to above 0%? if something is that bulky and strong, it can be banned. the class of "strong and bulky wallbreakers" is not large enough to warrant this
to prove my point, here is every pokemon with more than 500 BST and 60 speed or less:
Ampharos, Arboliva, Avalugg, Avalugg-Hisui, Beartic, Blissey, Brute Bonnet, Calyrex-Ice, Coalossal, Conkeldurr, Decidueye-Hisui, Diancie, Dondozo, Dudunsparce, Dusknoir, Eelektross, Empoleon, Enamorus-Therian, Exeggutor, Exeggutor-Alola, Farigiraf, Glastrier, Goodra-Hisui, Grimmsnarl, Hatterene, Hippowdon, Hydrapple, Incineroar, Iron Hands, Kingambit, Lapras, Magnezone, Porygon2, Primarina, Probopass, Regice, Regirock, Registeel, Rhyperior, Snorlax, Swampert, Sylveon, Ting-Lu, Torterra, Ursaluna
The problematic ones i see are kingambit, iron hands, and ursaluna (and caly-ice but thats an uber so who cares), and then maybe enamorus-t, glastrier, dondozo, conkeldurr (dondozo, hydrapple?)
thats like 3-8 mons banned bc of the gimmick, which is not that much

There is a reason why Trick Room is limited in the base game. It’s because speed is a core function of Pokemon and lots of balance decisions are made around speed.

Hey did you know there was an OM that was literally just Trick Room is permanently up?

Even if you get past the technical issues, you are still dealing with the issue that any Pokemon that was designed with speed being their main weakness having said weakness removed will dominate the metagame.

See my above points

Thanks for reading my line by line.

 

[AintTellingUNothing]

What you’re proposing is essentially Ursaluna the Metagame. What’s the point of running any archetype other than Trick Room team, but without Trick Room? The only stats that matter now are bulk and offenses. No need to worry about those pesky faster Pokemon using their speed advantage to KO you before you get an attack off. Just run 6 strong and bulky wallbreakers, and just bash your toys together until someone wins.
There is a reason why Trick Room is limited in the base game. It’s because speed is a core function of Pokemon and lots of balance decisions are made around speed.

Look, Twisted Dimensions literally exists, and personally, having another meta where power is valued over unfair speed is refreshing. Yes, some slow mons will be banworthy, but this might be the only meta where Rampardos can actually do something. Mons that where previously unviable because of their lack of bulk/speed/both become way better now that they can kill their opponents even if they die.

 

[VannAccessible]

On the subject of priority in High Noon, when bulky offense mons become dominant in a meta, and when everything gets to invest in bulk and/or offense, priority becomes relatively weaker. This is something else we saw in Twisted Dimension.

So while priority is useful in some scenarios, I don’t think the meta would become “priority, the meta” by any means.

It sounds like a cool concept to me.

(Speed =/= priority)

 

[Cuddly]

Look, Twisted Dimensions literally exists, and personally, having another meta where power is valued over unfair speed is refreshing. Yes, some slow mons will be banworthy, but this might be the only meta where Rampardos can actually do something. Mons that where previously unviable because of their lack of bulk/speed/both become way better now that they can kill their opponents even if they die.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of Trick Room being good or the central mechanic of a Metagame. For the same reasons why GameFreak doesn't try buffing it with Room extenders or Trick Room setter. It screws with the balance of the game, and its frankly boring and uncompetitive.
In regular Singles, its very match-up fishing-y, where it basically looks to see if you can stall out Trick Room turns on Stall/Balance or find a way to prevent Trick Room for Offense. Then when you do play the match, the only thing that matters is the turns when the opponent is setting up Trick Room.
Then in metas where Trick Room is buffed or the main mechanic, it just becomes boring to actually fight. With a few exceptions, the game just becomes Ursaluna the metagame where you bang 2 Ursaluna toys and hope you manage to win out with barely any strategy.
And what's the point of High Noon is it's also just gonna be Twisted Dimensions with slight changes? It'll effectively play out the same way but arguably worse since Pokemon even slower than Ursaluna and co will go the same time as said Pokemon.

 

[grovylestand!]

its more diverse bcs it can still use faster mons. the premise is slightly more complcated 2 moves at once.

 

[Cuddly]

its more diverse bcs it can still use faster mons. the premise is slightly more complcated 2 moves at once.

But there is no point in using faster Pokemon. Those faster Pokemon are balanced around going first, letting them deal damage or use a status move before the opponent. That means they are typically frailer and don't hit as hard. Removing that means Pokemon like Deoxys-S, Dragapult, or Cinderace are entirely pointless since their best attribute is their speed. Like here, why would you ever use Regieleki over Raging Bolt, when Raging Bolt is stronger, way bulkier, has better movepool, and has dual STAB. Normally its because Regieleki is faster, but that doesn't matter in High Noon.

 

[DragonPhoenix333]

Personally, I'm not a big fan of Trick Room being good or the central mechanic of a Metagame. For the same reasons why GameFreak doesn't try buffing it with Room extenders or Trick Room setter. It screws with the balance of the game, and its frankly boring and uncompetitive.
In regular Singles, its very match-up fishing-y, where it basically looks to see if you can stall out Trick Room turns on Stall/Balance or find a way to prevent Trick Room for Offense. Then when you do play the match, the only thing that matters is the turns when the opponent is setting up Trick Room.
Then in metas where Trick Room is buffed or the main mechanic, it just becomes boring to actually fight. With a few exceptions, the game just becomes Ursaluna the metagame where you bang 2 Ursaluna toys and hope you manage to win out with barely any strategy.
And what's the point of High Noon is it's also just gonna be Twisted Dimensions with slight changes? It'll effectively play out the same way but arguably worse since Pokemon even slower than Ursaluna and co will go the same time as said Pokemon.

dawg your points are just ursaluna this and ursaluna that did u even read my post? if there are problematic pokemon just fucking ban them. there are not that many pokemon in this category "oh yeah we just stat gap everyone because our base stat total is so high and our speed is low so we are fucking broken when speed doesnt matter". there's like 10 that are borderline, and only like 4-5 of them are immediate threats imo (luna, hands, gambit, and idk im prolly missing something). <10 pokemon banned bc of the premise is far from many for oms.

 

[Cuddly]

dawg your points are just ursaluna this and ursaluna that did u even read my post? if there are problematic pokemon just fucking ban them. there are not that many pokemon in this category "oh yeah we just stat gap everyone because our base stat total is so high and our speed is low so we are fucking broken when speed doesnt matter". there's like 10 that are borderline, and only like 4-5 of them are immediate threats imo (luna, hands, gambit, and idk im prolly missing something). <10 pokemon banned bc of the premise is far from many for oms.

Problematic Pokemon exist, but High Noon is fundamentally flawed as a concept, even if you manage to solve the technical issues.
When you completely flip a games balancing, it isn't just 1 or 2 bad apples. The whole game mode ends up being bad apples.
Speed is important to the gameplay of Pokemon. It's like if you were to play a fighting game and just remove blocking. You know, the Attack-Block-Grab triangle of fighting games? Yeah, Pokemon has that too in archetypes. Fast (Pokemon like Dragapult) Wall (Pokemon like Toxapex) and Breaker (Pokemon like Ursaluna).
Do you see how there is a fundamental issue now?

 

[grovylestand!]

stop hating bruh if u dont like it then let us think about it and build a meta

 

[AintTellingUNothing]

stop hating bruh if u dont like it then let us think about it and build a meta

Yeah ngl if you have criticisms make sure that you can think of ways that those problems can be changed. Not every OM is perfect, and not every OM has to be. If it works, it works, and if it doesn't, find a way to make it work.

 

[Crazyxd]

Ok I have an idea, but it's pure rng mess but it sounds really interesting to me but it's fine you don't like it
Chaotic Background:
Basically on any turn there is a chance for a random weather, terrain, room or even one of the combined pledge moves effect to appear for a limited number turns (to be honest I think 3 is balanced) any before you say 'trick room is hell' we can make the problematic and strong background effect to be really rare while sliding the chance to the more less severe ones maybe like terrains has 30% to appear with 1/4 chance from it for each terrain to appear, so wdyt? (let's hope this doesn't already exist)

;-;