Format Discussion Scarlet/Violet Random Battle Sets

[Rincewind Fan]

Regarding the recent change to the setup set: can we please give it the lefties back? I know this literally just got changed but it feels so much worse. Miraidon is already more than strong enough to blow through most mons with a couple cms, its more limited by its relatively bad speed. The orb just puts it on a timer and makes it more unreliable and vulnerable to being revenged. I have no problem with the moveset changes but the item is so much worse now, I feel like it would definitley benefit much more from an item that could let it stick around like lefties or even boots.

I get that this was just added and its probably better to wait for data to come in but I just wanted to weigh in.

 

[A Cake Wearing A Hat]

Regarding the recent change to the setup set: can we please give it the lefties back? I know this literally just got changed but it feels so much worse. Miraidon is already more than strong enough to blow through most mons with a couple cms, its more limited by its relatively bad speed. The orb just puts it on a timer and makes it more unreliable and vulnerable to being revenged. I have no problem with the moveset changes but the item is so much worse now, I feel like it would definitley benefit much more from an item that could let it stick around like lefties or even boots.

I get that this was just added and its probably better to wait for data to come in but I just wanted to weigh in.

We very well might do so! Since the data comes in at the same time we make updates, we'll be waiting until the data comes in either way.

 

[Cazenovia]

I noticed that Fast Attacker Magnezone sets have the possibility of having Analytic, which seems like kind of an unhelpful ability for a set that is guaranteed to be Scarfed and thus presumably should be outspeeding a lot of the meta. I'm just curious as to why Fast Attacker Magnezone can have Analytic as its ability but not Sturdy, given that (imo) the latter seems more useful on a Fast Attacker than the former.

 

[Volsur]

I noticed that Fast Attacker Magnezone sets have the possibility of having Analytic, which seems like kind of an unhelpful ability for a set that is guaranteed to be Scarfed and thus presumably should be outspeeding a lot of the meta. I'm just curious as to why Fast Attacker Magnezone can have Analytic as its ability but not Sturdy, given that (imo) the latter seems more useful on a Fast Attacker than the former.

Analytic activates on switches, which means you have a fast mon that can get bonus damage on the opponent switching out of a bad matchup or attempting to escape a revenge kill.

 

[A Cake Wearing A Hat]

yeah i don't like it either but the team hates magnet pull and the stats don't show that analytic is worse on scarf than magnet pull was. Last thing I want is having sturdy too, though. I'm a magnet pull believer through and through and don't want that to be any less common than it already is.

 

[bwarang]

Fix Sableye. This mon just auto wins into a ton of different sets and worst of all you're very limited in your switches because it can have both Thunder Wave and Will o Wisp. Give it just Thunder Wave and it's much more manageable.

 

[Volsur]

Fix Sableye. This mon just auto wins into a ton of different sets and worst of all you're very limited in your switches because it can have both Thunder Wave and Will o Wisp. Give it just Thunder Wave and it's much more manageable.

Mons are not intentionally nerfed or made worse for the sake of it, if it is too strong it will have high winrates to show and get its level nerfed at the end of the month.

 

[lesllamas]

What is the point of tera ghost oricorio sensu?

Oricorio generally isn't one to use tera to juice its revelation dance a little bit more. There's so much more value in other tera types like fighting, and though I don't think it's ever had it, probably ground or steel as well (to avoid twave/toxic). There's just so much more momentum you can grab from a well timed defensive tera on a quiver dancer, and one that gives you variation in move coverage to boot.

 

[Antsaya]

What is the point of tera ghost oricorio sensu?

Oricorio generally isn't one to use tera to juice its revelation dance a little bit more. There's so much more value in other tera types like fighting, and though I don't think it's ever had it, probably ground or steel as well (to avoid twave/toxic). There's just so much more momentum you can grab from a well timed defensive tera on a quiver dancer, and one that gives you variation in move coverage to boot.

I can see the argument for it, given that Ghost is a fantastic neutral typing and being able to push your damage just a little further (whilst dodging flying's associated weaknesses, especially priority like Ice Shard) is nice. Sensu can also generate Tera Fighting for strong defensive benefits (Dark weakness becomes a resistance) and offensive benefits (guaranteed neutral hit on a target expecting Ghost-type elevation dance) that are different enough from Tera Ghost to create some unpredictability.

Personally, Tera Steel is not strong enough offensively - especially with Hurricane - to be successful.

Tera Ground was removed due to tanking winrates. From a theoretical point of view, though; the para immunity is nice, and most combined resistances, namely airborne steels, don't have the best special bulk. Weakness to multiple forms of physical priority (Aqua Jet, Ice Shard, and the rare Jet Punch) sucks though.

I'd prefer Tera Electric over Ground, personally, as you get similar sorts of benefits without the priority and shared Ice weaknesses and have a full immunity to paralysis.

If it were up to me, I would keep Tera Ghost and Fighting. Maybe I'd try out Tera Electric, though I'm unsure if it offers enough differences to not also last a single update cycle.

 

[lesllamas]

I can see the argument for it, given that Ghost is a fantastic neutral typing and being able to push your damage just a little further (whilst dodging flying's associated weaknesses, especially priority like Ice Shard) is nice. Sensu can also generate Tera Fighting for strong defensive benefits (Dark weakness becomes a resistance) and offensive benefits (guaranteed neutral hit on a target expecting Ghost-type elevation dance) that are different enough from Tera Ghost to create some unpredictability.

Personally, Tera Steel is not strong enough offensively - especially with Hurricane - to be successful.

Tera Ground was removed due to tanking winrates. From a theoretical point of view, though; the para immunity is nice, and most combined resistances, namely airborne steels, don't have the best special bulk. Weakness to multiple forms of physical priority (Aqua Jet, Ice Shard, and the rare Jet Punch) sucks though.

I'd prefer Tera Electric over Ground, personally, as you get similar sorts of benefits without the priority and shared Ice weaknesses and have a full immunity to paralysis.

If it were up to me, I would keep Tera Ghost and Fighting. Maybe I'd try out Tera Electric, though I'm unsure if it offers enough differences to not also last a single update cycle.

To be clear, I think Tera Fighting is excellent.

I strongly disagree that tera ghost pushing your damage a bit further is a very useful benefit for oricorio. That archetype of usefulness is most noticeable on hard hitting mons with big STAB threats (perhaps choiced) like Psystrike on Mewtwo or Liquidation on Wugtrio. Moves that are powerful enough that the tera boost results in a large damage delta.

A quick example on a neutral hit mon with identical def/spdef:

Lvl 91 84 Atk Choice Band Wugtrio Liquidation vs. Lvl 73 81 HP / 84 Def Arceus-Bug: 135-159 (45.7 - 53.8%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO
Lvl 91 84 Atk Choice Band Tera Water Wugtrio Liquidation vs. Lvl 73 81 HP / 84 Def Arceus-Bug: 180-212 (61 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Lvl 85 84 SpA Oricorio-Sensu Revelation Dance vs. Lvl 73 81 HP / 84 SpD Arceus-Bug: 82-97 (27.7 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Lvl 85 84 SpA Tera Ghost Oricorio-Sensu Revelation Dance vs. Lvl 73 81 HP / 84 SpD Arceus-Bug: 110-130 (37.2 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

The tera results in a 15.3-18% damage increase for Wugtrio, and only a 9.5-11.2% damage increase for Oricorio Sensu. I don't particularly want to argue about Wugtrio, but I'm just using it as a quick example that shows what most people probably feel intuitively: when you click the same type "I want a lil extra STAB" tera on a mon, its impact is greater on mons that pose a higher base threat. As a quiver dancer, Oricorio really doesn't fall in that bucket.

Oricorio is a mon that does best when it can enable its quiver dance setup. Something like Tera Fighting does that very successfully.

I'm not saying that it's impossible to find a situation where clicking tera ghost could give Oricorio a benefit--I'm saying that those situations are rarely applicable and probably weak enough that you should have much better tera options on other mons on your team. Revelation dance changing type with Tera is a really big deal. It lets you bluff some threats, and expands the scope of what you can potentially threaten in a match. Giving that up to reduce ice shard / accelerock damage or slightly juice the revelation dance power (when hurricane is also just sitting there if you really need to nuke something) makes no sense to me.

 

[livid washed]

To be clear, I think Tera Fighting is excellent.

I strongly disagree that tera ghost pushing your damage a bit further is a very useful benefit for oricorio. That archetype of usefulness is most noticeable on hard hitting mons with big STAB threats (perhaps choiced) like Psystrike on Mewtwo or Liquidation on Wugtrio. Moves that are powerful enough that the tera boost results in a large damage delta.

A quick example on a neutral hit mon with identical def/spdef:

Lvl 91 84 Atk Choice Band Wugtrio Liquidation vs. Lvl 73 81 HP / 84 Def Arceus-Bug: 135-159 (45.7 - 53.8%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO
Lvl 91 84 Atk Choice Band Tera Water Wugtrio Liquidation vs. Lvl 73 81 HP / 84 Def Arceus-Bug: 180-212 (61 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Lvl 85 84 SpA Oricorio-Sensu Revelation Dance vs. Lvl 73 81 HP / 84 SpD Arceus-Bug: 82-97 (27.7 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Lvl 85 84 SpA Tera Ghost Oricorio-Sensu Revelation Dance vs. Lvl 73 81 HP / 84 SpD Arceus-Bug: 110-130 (37.2 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

The tera results in a 15.3-18% damage increase for Wugtrio, and only a 9.5-11.2% damage increase for Oricorio Sensu. I don't particularly want to argue about Wugtrio, but I'm just using it as a quick example that shows what most people probably feel intuitively: when you click the same type "I want a lil extra STAB" tera on a mon, its impact is greater on mons that pose a higher base threat. As a quiver dancer, Oricorio really doesn't fall in that bucket.

Oricorio is a mon that does best when it can enable its quiver dance setup. Something like Tera Fighting does that very successfully.

I'm not saying that it's impossible to find a situation where clicking tera ghost could give Oricorio a benefit--I'm saying that those situations are rarely applicable and probably weak enough that you should have much better tera options on other mons on your team. Revelation dance changing type with Tera is a really big deal. It lets you bluff some threats, and expands the scope of what you can potentially threaten in a match. Giving that up to reduce ice shard / accelerock damage or slightly juice the revelation dance power (when hurricane is also just sitting there if you really need to nuke something) makes no sense to me.

We’ll get rid of tera ghost and probably won’t replace it with anything else, so it’ll be just tera fighting.

 

[Emkatt]

We’ll get rid of tera ghost and probably won’t replace it with anything else, so it’ll be just tera fighting.

counterpoint https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9randombattle-2602330435

 

[lesllamas]

counterpoint https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9randombattle-2602330435

What is it exactly do you think this shows tera ghost accomplishing that tera fighting would not? You still take down Minior easily and now instead of removing a weakness to stone edge, you gain a resistance to it + your revelation dance is super effective against Tera Steel Hitmontop (obviously if it doesn't tera, it's susceptible to Hurricane).

All that replay shows is that quiver dancing venomoth gives Oricorio an insane head start lol

 

[Emkatt]

What is it exactly do you think this shows tera ghost accomplishing that tera fighting would not? You still take down Minior easily and now instead of removing a weakness to stone edge, you gain a resistance to it + your revelation dance is super effective against Tera Steel Hitmontop (obviously if it doesn't tera, it's susceptible to Hurricane).

All that replay shows is that quiver dancing venomoth gives Oricorio an insane head start lol

I only took down minior because of tera ghost. If I tera fighting and he clicks acrobatics I die. Also Hurricane misses 100% of the time there. Tera ghost was the only winning play

In all seriousness though, I think your whole premise was just wrong. It's not about the percentage multiplier you get from the stab tera, it's about how often that turns things from 2kos into ohkos or 3kos into 2kos. Oricorio doesn't have a huge special attack so even after 1 or 2 QDs it often needs just a little bit extra to kill stuff. If tera ghost gives you only 20% more damage but you are always 15% away from winning the game that's good enough. And getting rid of flying is decent defensively, you're only threatened by sucker punch but you can outplay it with roosts.

I think tera fighting is probably better most of the time but not so much better that tera ghost should be removed.

 

[lesllamas]

I only took down minior because of tera ghost. If I tera fighting and he clicks acrobatics I die. Also Hurricane misses 100% of the time there. Tera ghost was the only winning play

In all seriousness though, I think your whole premise was just wrong. It's not about the percentage multiplier you get from the stab tera, it's about how often that turns things from 2kos into ohkos or 3kos into 2kos. Oricorio doesn't have a huge special attack so even after 1 or 2 QDs it often needs just a little bit extra to kill stuff. If tera ghost gives you only 20% more damage but you are always 15% away from winning the game that's good enough. And getting rid of flying is decent defensively, you're only threatened by sucker punch but you can outplay it with roosts.

I think tera fighting is probably better most of the time but not so much better that tera ghost should be removed.

If you click tera fighting and he clicks acrobatics, you take 30-36%.

And there's no reason to even tera at all. You have +2 spd into a Minior still in meteor form. You can just quiver dance straight into a shell smash, and even quiver dance a second time into a second shell smash.

 

[Emkatt]

If you click tera fighting and he clicks acrobatics, you take 30-36%.

And there's no reason to even tera at all. You have +2 spd into a Minior still in meteor form. You can just quiver dance straight into a shell smash, and even quiver dance a second time into a second shell smash.

In that scenario he would have smashed first, my attack would bring him to attack form and make him outspeed me, then acrobatics would kill. I could have tried to predict it by quiver dancing a 3rd time I guess. But then if he is tera flying he can also predict that and tank the revelation dance. So tera ghost is still the only completely safe play.

 

[lesllamas]

In that scenario he would have smashed first, my attack would bring him to attack form and make him outspeed me, then acrobatics would kill. I could have tried to predict it by quiver dancing a 3rd time I guess. But then if he is tera flying he can also predict that and tank the revelation dance. So tera ghost is still the only completely safe play.

Attacking there instead of just quiver dancing for +3 is entirely nonsensical. There'd be no need to tera fighting at all, since the only thing that does for you is give you resistance to power gem (which is completely unthreatening when you have +3spd and you still outspeed + have access to roost). Acrobatics prior to shell smash does practically no damage. After the shell smash in meteor form, acrobatics had a 12.5% chance to OHKO you at 68%, while your revelation dance has an 81.3% chance to OHKO (hurricane a guaranteed OHKO if they tera flying but obviously 81.3%>70% acc).

Your tera ghost in that scenario was an unnecessary luxury that just sped up the game (which, fine).

At +3 you could even afford to Roost into a tera flying acrobatics (presuming the opposing minior rolled tera flying instead of one of its 3 other tera types, none of which resist your base revelation dance), since you still outspeed a +4 meteor form minior at +3 (meaning they can't read your roost with an additional shell smash since the spdef drop would guarantee that they get OHKOd on the next turn).

 

[lesllamas]

Is there a way to ensure scarfed Slither Wing always gets U-Turn?

Not 100% sure how the set gets generated / I know that Slither Wing has MANY movesets possible, so understand it may not be so straightforward.

 

[A Cake Wearing A Hat]

Is there a way to ensure scarfed Slither Wing always gets U-Turn?

Not 100% sure how the set gets generated / I know that Slither Wing has MANY movesets possible, so understand it may not be so straightforward.

Sets with First Impression and no U-turn are fine imo. bug/fighting needs the coverage sometimes.

Plus, I don't think Bulk Up sets want U-turn either

edit: i didn't see scarfed. yeah, we know about that one, that's not really fixable without deleting some coverage entirely.

 

[lesllamas]

Sets with First Impression and no U-turn are fine imo. bug/fighting needs the coverage sometimes.

Plus, I don't think Bulk Up sets want U-turn either

edit: i didn't see scarfed. yeah, we know about that one, that's not really fixable without deleting some coverage entirely.

For sure, no worries. Was just a quick thought as usually scarfed mons with STAB pivot generate that pivot move in my experience. But I definitely understand that it's not a one-size-fits-all rule.

 

[wiff]

Does anyone have any advice about fighting against opponents with sticky web when you don't have hazard removal? I feel like I have just not been getting teams that have rapid spin/defog. It's especially worse if they happen to luck into leading with their web setter.
Also maybe related, I know there are win rates for Pokemon, but are there win or efficacy rates tied to moves as well? I would be curious to see how often a player wins when they have hazard setters compared to when they do not.

 

[lesllamas]

I don't think that that discussion is really the purpose of this thread, unless you have an idea for how the sets could or should change.

Sometimes you get tough matchups with regard to hazards, sometimes you get favorable ones. No different than getting tough or favorable matchups against specific walls like Blissey or sweepers like Spectrier.

 

[miracleeggy]

Hiya, was just wondering whether there are any scenarios where umbreon actually benefits from synchronize? It usually wants to toxic stall and with how many bulky mons have status moves it's not very helpful?
E.g. Giratina and misdreavus with will o wisp or a Milotic with scald
Even if synchronize reflected a toxic that wouldn't be very helpful as it's a one time thing.
Inner focus I feel would be better as it would never stop toxic from going up.

Also the recommended wish support set here : https://www.smogon.com/dex/sv/pokemon/umbreon/ has synchronize or inner focus listed, probably because they're both largely useless? No mention of the ability in the set details. So maybe a helpful change

 

[lesllamas]

Hiya, was just wondering whether there are any scenarios where umbreon actually benefits from synchronize? It usually wants to toxic stall and with how many bulky mons have status moves it's not very helpful?
E.g. Giratina and misdreavus with will o wisp or a Milotic with scald
Even if synchronize reflected a toxic that wouldn't be very helpful as it's a one time thing.
Inner focus I feel would be better as it would never stop toxic from going up.

Also the recommended wish support set here : https://www.smogon.com/dex/sv/pokemon/umbreon/ has synchronize or inner focus listed, probably because they're both largely useless? No mention of the ability in the set details. So maybe a helpful change

That's an interesting suggestion. It's an edge case, but I think switching in on mons that fish for body slam paras like Wyrdeer or Jirachi can sometimes be useful. Jirachi is probably the most compelling case to want to eat a para in order to get it paralyzed as well (in a 1v1 situation inner focus would end up being more useful, but in a holistic sense it'd be more beneficial for your other mons). Any steel type that paralyzes (e.g. Magearna, Jirachi, Duraludon off top of head) would probably hate to get synchronize para'd.

I guess there's also will o wisp dragapult, which I believe still gets Dragon Darts (so burning it does cripple it somewhat).

Inner focus certainly has applicability against a different subset of mons though. They're both kind of niche abilities.

 

[PrincessGardevoir]

I know Stantler is definitely nowhere near the strength of Bisharp or Girafarig, but I'm curious why it isn't in the list of possible mons for rands.

A Bulky Attacker set of Body Slam/Earthquake/Thunder Wave and a roll for Megahorn and Energy Ball (notably, for most Ground types that can absorb a Thunder Wave and often have high phys def, like Quagsire, Rhyperior, Hippowdon, etc) and/or Roar could be cool with Eviolite, playing a similar role to Granbull or Qwilfish as a para spreader with Intimidate, but packs Eviolite for more bulk and comes with STAB Body Slam and Energy Ball. Idk, could be cool?