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More fundamentally, and I say this every time, the point of gyms shouldn't be purely "how difficult can we make this fight?" Because they're the devs, they can make it impossible if they want. The point of each gym should be to test whether the player has mastered various game mechanics. Make the first couple gyms monotype roadblocks where a player without a type advantage will be in trouble, but a player with one will find it easy. 3 Geodude is a fine first gym IMO. But then make the next gym a stat check, do you have a team that can trade hard hits until the enemy breaks? Can you defeat a status-using stall team that can't be OHKO'd without massive overleveling? What about monotype with good coverage to counter your obvious picks? VoltTurn?

A player should reach the end of the game knowing not just the type chart, but how to use setup moves, how to recognize a bad matchup and switch, the benefits of healing in-combat but also when that's a trap, etc. I don't like Blaine and "just use Surf lol" sorts of lategame gyms, they aren't interesting and discourage doing anything other than sweep. If the gyms are supposed to be a skill check, have them check more than just whether we've caught mons of a specific type.
Genuinely this has been something the series has been struggling with for such a long time that’s it’s honestly concerning.
There’s so many mechanics the game just ignores completely that the entire meta game is basically built off of.

And I don’t mean stuff like Trick Room or Stealth Rocks, I mean basic stuff like stat changing moves after removing Growl/Leer. Everyone here has had a time where they just gave your Mons exclusively attacking moves.
Either because they either didn’t understand them as a kid, or because there’s absolutely zero reason to care about anything else.
Why make your attack stronger when you already 1-2HKO everything anyway and get ko’d 3-4 hits?

And that’s before talking about how easy it is to just spam a single attack to win. I hate how the series is so bad about that, it wouldn’t even be that difficulty to fix it either
 
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I honestly find the older Purugly design too empty for back + it looks way too similar to Glameow. I get liking the neck ruff, but the rest is too flat for me

Similarly, while I want Delibird to have an evo, I'm not a fan of how aggressively human centric the design is. It's an issue people have for starters pater Gens
 
I honestly find the older Purugly design too empty for back + it looks way too similar to Glameow. I get liking the neck ruff, but the rest is too flat for me

Similarly, while I want Delibird to have an evo, I'm not a fan of how aggressively human centric the design is. It's an issue people have for starters pater Gens
i dont like final purugly for the same reason in the name

its not cute and its deliberately ugly

they could have made its evolution the design equivalent of cardboard but if it was something Palettable to me i'd actually be using the line in the games

nothing annoys me more than the cute mon -> evolves into ugly guy style line. i dont want that
 
I honestly find the older Purugly design too empty for back + it looks way too similar to Glameow. I get liking the neck ruff, but the rest is too flat for me

Similarly, while I want Delibird to have an evo, I'm not a fan of how aggressively human centric the design is. It's an issue people have for starters pater Gens
Beta Purugly looks like if Glameow were a single stage line and someone drew fanart of a hypothetical evolution they made up.
 
While I do agree that Purugly is a better design than the beta, I think that really just highlights the difference between a beta design and something that has been iterated on to completion. If they’d taken Purnotugly all the way to finalization instead, it wouldn’t look so much like a fan-made fakemon and would probably feel like a more organic evolution to Glameow.

But honestly even just the concept I feel is a little more interesting with Purugly as it is. A sleek, beautiful cat going to a more sleek, beautiful cat obviously can work, but it’s so straightforward, and we already have a few cats both before and after Glameow that follow that direction. So I like that there’s at least one cat Pokémon that goes a different way and turns into a snooty fat cat.

I still don’t get why its ears look like fingers though
 
While I do agree that Purugly is a better design than the beta, I think that really just highlights the difference between a beta design and something that has been iterated on to completion. If they’d taken Purnotugly all the way to finalization instead, it wouldn’t look so much like a fan-made fakemon and would probably feel like a more organic evolution to Glameow.

But honestly even just the concept I feel is a little more interesting with Purugly as it is. A sleek, beautiful cat going to a more sleek, beautiful cat obviously can work, but it’s so straightforward, and we already have a few cats both before and after Glameow that follow that direction. So I like that there’s at least one cat Pokémon that goes a different way and turns into a snooty fat cat.

I still don’t get why its ears look like fingers though
you say its straightforward except you just described 60% of pokemon evolution lines

having cute pokemon evolve into cute pokemon is practically a twist

its to a point where when i play a new game with a new dex im not letting myself get attached anymore because ive been burnt by training a cute pokemon that is dogshit for hours only to immediately box it or not like it upon evo
 
my problem isnt that cute pokemon dont exist or that mons i dont care for exist

it is that

1. there are like 5 purugly fans and idgaf even if its their favorite pokemon Delete It For All I Care

2. most of the cute pokemon are pre evos to mons that are like purugly

a pokemon line like the glameow line is designed to troll you if you train a cute cat pokemon and then it literally has Ugly in The Name, and then the previous gen cat IS cute on evolution but it's yknow

one of the worst performing fully evolved pokemon of all time
 
i do think purugly is cute though :( i cant have ethical fat cats that look kinda like shit irl cuz that comes w 1000 health problems so pokemon will have to do. i think she needs to let go of the body thinning puff though. its ok girl lay the paw off the ozempic.....

also this doesnt mean anyone is forced to like it but sometimes i wonder if some of these Uglier evos come from both wanting to make adult forms but also from a pretty frequent theme of designs meant to evolve a bit ugly because thats how people percieve adult animals. one the baby fever goes theyre big and annoying and nasty and such. in a way i like that these mons exist bc its nice to still love them as you did despite them not being so cute
 
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i do think purugly is cute though
thats fair tbh like i dont feel it is but eye of the beholder type shit yknow?


i cant have ethical fat cats that look kinda like shit irl cuz that comes w 1000 health problems so pokemon will have to do. i think she needs to let go of the body thinning puff though. its ok girl lay the paw off the ozempic.....
lmaooo fair


also this doesnt mean anyone is forced to like it but sometimes i wonder if some of these Uglier evos come from both wanting to make adult forms but also from a pretty frequent theme of designs meant to evolve a bit ugly because thats how people percieve adult animals.
you're probably right but im a weirdo that thinks most of the time adult animals are cuter than the babies

i also feel that glameow reads as an "adult" cat? i have a really small cat irl so im probably biased, tho skitty to me definitely gives kitten vibe bc it feels idk like

Spherical

to me the baby mon design language is supposed to be Sphere, Skitty/Yamper/Starters/Most Of The Baby Mons etc, while Glameow feels like its not rlly a baby to me and more just a small grown cat, and then purugly is supposed to be "The cat is spoiled and then this happened!!" or smth

glameow has a lot more in common with delcatty than skitty basically, imo? idk if any of this makes sense
in a way i like that these mons exist bc its nice to still love them as you did despite them not being so cute
i do want these to exist im just kinda salty

im actually a big fan of the stunky line because while neither are cute there is a like "Aww who's my big stinky little guy" to it lol. i also like this trope with three stage evos with the middle awkward shit, like larvitar is cool so you wanna catch it -> it evolves and now its a stone and very ugly -> then it evolves into The Sickest Guy Woaghhh
 
Honestly I prefer beta Stunky line (leaks not vid) cuz final puts WAY too much emphasis on the ass face

Also suspect it wasn't meant to be cream instead of muddy tan, which I feel works better, but we don't have the palette for the older sprite :(
 
I like barbaracle(rare probably,) but I feel like now we won't get a mega of other fossils...esp the two gen ones that share the base type. Idk, seems like it'd be even rarer to care about that.

Edit: I think by now, no spoiler tag necessary, idk though. That other person mentioned chandelure.
 
:bw/reshiram: :bw/zekrom:

Here’s a discussion some of you aren’t ready for. The storyline of Pokémon Black & White is objectively one of the worst in the core series and while it is absolutely not the worst- it takes genuine effort to write a storyline as bad as what Sword & Shield was given- I do not believe this game ever truly figures out what it wants to be as someone with a bit of background and interest in creative writing myself.

Pokémon Black & White’s storyline ultimately suffers from a major identity crisis that begins the moment the player meets N in Accumula Town. Placing extra story emphasis on a character who is not the player isn’t the issue here- it’s the fact that the game is deliberately trying to balance telling the story of the player character and their indeterminate actions with the linear storyline of N’s character arc. For the first 1/3 or 1/2 or so of the main story, N doesn’t do too much besides provide cryptic dialogue just like we saw from Maxie/Archie and Cyrus earlier in the franchise, and he really only gets off the ground after the Ferris wheel scene where he reveals he’s a part of Team Plasma. This shift towards N’s role with Team Plasma changes the player’s perception of what Team Plasma was attempting to do in previous parts of the story (we never did find out what they wanted to do with that Dream Mist either, did they just forget about that whole part?) and I would like to say Team Plasma is more relevant in the story’s second act, but compared to other evil teams they’re really not, and their appearance at Dragonspiral Tower and the Relic Castle reeks of “Evil Team shows up right around the seventh Gym cliché”. During the third act of the story where you finally get to see more of what Ghetsis has been planning, you start to think, man, the game’s taken ages to get here but finally we’ll get to see what sets Team Plasma apart from the other evil teams. Aaaand then the entire thing falls apart the moment the player defeats N in the castle. Not only is this the one set of games where the main character of the story arguably not the player, but any sort of character depth Ghetsis had disappears as he regresses back to the archetypal “I want to rule the region” villain the Junichi Masuda Era of games is known for. You can make the argument that he’s simply trying to silence the protagonist from revealing the truth about his plans to Unova now that N’s been defeated… except this logistically makes little sense because we’re a Silent Protagonist™️ and even if we weren’t, in the situation that the player loses against Ghetsis, Game Freak hardly ever incorporates the consequences of an important loss in these Pokémon games because this is a gigantic multimedia franchise for kids! We don’t have to put in effort! We’re going to make billions regardless! In all seriousness, since the player doesn’t get exposed to the consequences of something like that, any impact of Ghetsis’s threat is completely undermined by Game Freak’s handling of whiting out to the nearest Pokémon Center and trying again like nothing ever happened.

…so as you can see, I don’t like Team Plasma, but this post doesn’t end there. A major part of the appeal of Pokémon in the late 1990s and again in the mid-2010s onward is that, in a sense, the adventure and discovery was the story. What I mean by this is that, especially for large ensembles of newer fans playing Pokémon for the first time, the writing direction of these games is directly influenced and attributed to the concept of exploring a new, vaguely familiar world to our own but with a touch of fantasy, and by the time Unova came out, Pokémon was already an established franchise, and while Unova’s writing is different in places, it’s fundamentally not THAT different. As much as we all bash on Kanto and Johto for how boring they can be to go back to, these older regions and their narratives worked because they leaned into the idea that you, the player, are experiencing this new world for the first time, and I also would not argue that elements of Johto’s storyline feel like an overcorrection of certain elements of its predecessor in the same way that Black 2 & White 2 intentionally try and erase the more in-depth but potentially controversial parts of their own predecessor, such as Team Plasma’s religious imagery for example.
 
:bw/reshiram: :bw/zekrom:

Here’s a discussion some of you aren’t ready for. The storyline of Pokémon Black & White is objectively one of the worst in the core series and while it is absolutely not the worst- it takes genuine effort to write a storyline as bad as what Sword & Shield was given- I do not believe this game ever truly figures out what it wants to be as someone with a bit of background and interest in creative writing myself.

Pokémon Black & White’s storyline ultimately suffers from a major identity crisis that begins the moment the player meets N in Accumula Town. Placing extra story emphasis on a character who is not the player isn’t the issue here- it’s the fact that the game is deliberately trying to balance telling the story of the player character and their indeterminate actions with the linear storyline of N’s character arc. For the first 1/3 or 1/2 or so of the main story, N doesn’t do too much besides provide cryptic dialogue just like we saw from Maxie/Archie and Cyrus earlier in the franchise, and he really only gets off the ground after the Ferris wheel scene where he reveals he’s a part of Team Plasma. This shift towards N’s role with Team Plasma changes the player’s perception of what Team Plasma was attempting to do in previous parts of the story (we never did find out what they wanted to do with that Dream Mist either, did they just forget about that whole part?) and I would like to say Team Plasma is more relevant in the story’s second act, but compared to other evil teams they’re really not, and their appearance at Dragonspiral Tower and the Relic Castle reeks of “Evil Team shows up right around the seventh Gym cliché”. During the third act of the story where you finally get to see more of what Ghetsis has been planning, you start to think, man, the game’s taken ages to get here but finally we’ll get to see what sets Team Plasma apart from the other evil teams. Aaaand then the entire thing falls apart the moment the player defeats N in the castle. Not only is this the one set of games where the main character of the story arguably not the player, but any sort of character depth Ghetsis had disappears as he regresses back to the archetypal “I want to rule the region” villain the Junichi Masuda Era of games is known for. You can make the argument that he’s simply trying to silence the protagonist from revealing the truth about his plans to Unova now that N’s been defeated… except this logistically makes little sense because we’re a Silent Protagonist™️ and even if we weren’t, in the situation that the player loses against Ghetsis, Game Freak hardly ever incorporates the consequences of an important loss in these Pokémon games because this is a gigantic multimedia franchise for kids! We don’t have to put in effort! We’re going to make billions regardless! In all seriousness, since the player doesn’t get exposed to the consequences of something like that, any impact of Ghetsis’s threat is completely undermined by Game Freak’s handling of whiting out to the nearest Pokémon Center and trying again like nothing ever happened.

…so as you can see, I don’t like Team Plasma, but this post doesn’t end there. A major part of the appeal of Pokémon in the late 1990s and again in the mid-2010s onward is that, in a sense, the adventure and discovery was the story. What I mean by this is that, especially for large ensembles of newer fans playing Pokémon for the first time, the writing direction of these games is directly influenced and attributed to the concept of exploring a new, vaguely familiar world to our own but with a touch of fantasy, and by the time Unova came out, Pokémon was already an established franchise, and while Unova’s writing is different in places, it’s fundamentally not THAT different. As much as we all bash on Kanto and Johto for how boring they can be to go back to, these older regions and their narratives worked because they leaned into the idea that you, the player, are experiencing this new world for the first time, and I also would not argue that elements of Johto’s storyline feel like an overcorrection of certain elements of its predecessor in the same way that Black 2 & White 2 intentionally try and erase the more in-depth but potentially controversial parts of their own predecessor, such as Team Plasma’s religious imagery for example.
potentialman story

what has me endlessly upset about gen 5's story is 1. how much glaze it gets from gen5ers nostalgia 2. how it actually had potential and does nothing with it
 
:bw/reshiram: :bw/zekrom:

Here’s a discussion some of you aren’t ready for. The storyline of Pokémon Black & White is objectively one of the worst in the core series...

I think this has shifted toward being a common consensus. BW tries something which is neat but it doesn't even aim in the direction of a viable place to try and stick a landing.

I think the evil team plots are kinda junk across the series. Gen 1 Team Rocket works nicely due to the much less utopian setting and subtextual implications of wider corruption and the Rival... and that's the best it gets. SuMo gets away with a fair bit off the back of Team Skull being so charming but the Aether Foundation is sort of weak outside of specifically Lusamine. Gen 3 Team Aqua + Magma almost has me to some extent with how much more frighteningly reasonable ecoterrorism is becoming in the modern real world, but the actual writing doesn't hold up and ORAS being ORAS mostly just makes me cringe with embarrassment. (ORAS's aesthetic overhaul being a massive downgrade is my hot take within a hot take but I just don't have words to say that without the rose tintedest of glasses)

I've seen some people fill in the cracks with very cool fanfiction for some of the evil teams but as far as the text is concerned plot writing is bad in this series.
 
Here’s a discussion some of you aren’t ready for. The storyline of Pokémon Black & White is objectively one of the worst in the core series

Do you really need to misuse the word “objectively” like that? It doesn’t make your claim any bolder, it just starts it off on a wilfully incorrect foundation.

(we never did find out what they wanted to do with that Dream Mist either, did they just forget about that whole part?)

The grunts trying to obtain the Dream Mist say what they want it for right there in that scene:

“We're going to use that to make people want to release their Pokémon... We'll show them dreams to manipulate their hearts.”

It wasn’t part of some elaborate grand plan, it was just them looking for another tool to help sway people into releasing their Pokémon.

and I would like to say Team Plasma is more relevant in the story’s second act, but compared to other evil teams they’re really not, and their appearance at Dragonspiral Tower and the Relic Castle reeks of “Evil Team shows up right around the seventh Gym cliché”.

I mean, that’s clearly deliberate. Since they knew they were going to take the Team Plasma story all the way to the Elite Four instead of ending it around Badge #7 like usual, they turned the setpieces and plot sequences that would normally occur around that part of the game into more of a rising action phase in which Team Plasma’s efforts ramp up and they begin to get the upper hand.

During the third act of the story where you finally get to see more of what Ghetsis has been planning, you start to think, man, the game’s taken ages to get here but finally we’ll get to see what sets Team Plasma apart from the other evil teams. Aaaand then the entire thing falls apart the moment the player defeats N in the castle. Not only is this the one set of games where the main character of the story arguably not the player, but any sort of character depth Ghetsis had disappears as he regresses back to the archetypal “I want to rule the region” villain the Junichi Masuda Era of games is known for.

This feels like missing the forest for the trees. N is clearly “what sets Team Plasma apart from the other evil teams,” because none of them had characters who received such copious amounts of narrative focus with as much attention paid to illustrating their perspectives. Ghetsis is simply a means to that end. Why are you looking toward Ghetsis for character depth when the game has been serving that to you via N the whole time?

I’d also argue that the villains of the Junichi Masuda “era” aren’t really known for wanting to rule the region. That was Team Rocket’s thing, which was before Masuda took over. Masuda’s games were RS and DP, in which the villains were more about wanting to transform the world in order to correct some sort of wrong that they perceived in the order of things. N is an iteration on that concept, taking it much further than before by allowing him to have more of an active voice and a direct relationship with the player, but Ghetsis is not.

in the situation that the player loses against Ghetsis, Game Freak hardly ever incorporates the consequences of an important loss in these Pokémon games because this is a gigantic multimedia franchise for kids! We don’t have to put in effort! We’re going to make billions regardless! In all seriousness, since the player doesn’t get exposed to the consequences of something like that, any impact of Ghetsis’s threat is completely undermined by Game Freak’s handling of whiting out to the nearest Pokémon Center and trying again like nothing ever happened.

This is a pretty bizarre angle of critique.

Yes, these are games for kids.

No, the devs not including a Bad Ending isn’t a sign of them feeling that, because these are games for kids, they “don’t have to put in effort.” It’s them knowing that these are just not the kinds of games where that would even remotely make sense to do. Hence why that isn’t a thing for any evil team in the series.
 
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Game Freak hardly ever incorporates the consequences of an important loss in these Pokémon games because this is a gigantic multimedia franchise for kids! We don’t have to put in effort! We’re going to make billions regardless! In all seriousness, since the player doesn’t get exposed to the consequences of something like that, any impact of Ghetsis’s threat is completely undermined by Game Freak’s handling of whiting out to the nearest Pokémon Center and trying again like nothing ever happened.
So you'd get one cutscene of the player character getting marched off in chains and then what? Any meaningful result of Ghetsis' policies would logically lead to a crippled savefile: reduced Centers or battling-centric shops, limited trades, etc.. Letting the player overwrite their single save and get locked into that unless they want to start over from scratch is the kind of thing that's sketchy in purely single-player games trying to preach about gaming as a medium, let alone something as centered around multiplayer as Pokemon. The player absolutely needs to be able to try again like nothing happened, whether or not that's true for the characters.
 
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