Resource GSC Simple Question, Simple Answer Thread

[Jorgen]

What structural issues do teams without Snorlax tend to have?

Snorlax is a huge check to most things. Without it, Nidoking, Zapdos, Raikou, and Jynx require a much more intentional defense. Things you wouldn't think of as offensive threats because Lax covers them so well, like vanilla Starmie, also start to require mental bandwidth to handle in the builder that you normally wouldn't even need to think about. You also need to be more intentional about how you cover Gengar and even something like Mixed Ttar. Alakazam becomes a terror unless you run one of Blissey, Ttar, or Umbreon.

Lax isn't unique in covering all this, of course. But you'll need a committee of Pokemon to cover everything. Plus, on top of needing more teamslots, that committee will end up ceding a lot more momentum than Lax does. Lax forces really passive play in a way nothing else really can. That means you're spending more turns reacting, potentially even reeling from the lack of "reset button" that Lax provides, and fewer turns trying to make progress when using Laxless.

 

[LHF]

Snorlax is a huge check to most things. Without it, Nidoking, Zapdos, Raikou, and Jynx require a much more intentional defense. Things you wouldn't think of as offensive threats because Lax covers them so well, like vanilla Starmie, also start to require mental bandwidth to handle in the builder that you normally wouldn't even need to think about. You also need to be more intentional about how you cover Gengar and even something like Mixed Ttar. Alakazam becomes a terror unless you run one of Blissey, Ttar, or Umbreon.

Lax isn't unique in covering all this, of course. But you'll need a committee of Pokemon to cover everything. Plus, on top of needing more teamslots, that committee will end up ceding a lot more momentum than Lax does. Lax forces really passive play in a way nothing else really can. That means you're spending more turns reacting and fewer turns trying to make progress when using Laxless.

This is an amazing answer to pzwrd's question but I would also like to add that Snorlax's vast movepool makes it irreplaceable as well. There are very few angles a Snorlax can take to make itself completely unviable in the builder - the question is oftentimes more about making your team synergize with the Snorlax set you've selected. So not only does it check a variety of mons well as Jorgen says, it also can potentially:

- serve as your wincon
- absorb sleep with a viable rest talker
- support other wincons. One angle I often think of is Snorlax + double electrics, where you often find your goal is to boom the opposing lax to let your Zapdos and Raikou unleash hellfire(hellelectric?) on the opponent's team without the main built in electric check in their way.

 

[Lillilee]

a pokemon that stands out to me in my newfound expedition into gsc ou is granbull. it is the only pokemon in all of gsc with access to heal bell and roar, providing a unique kind of role compression i've found myself tempted to utilize. has anyone top level in the tier used them at all, or is the role compression generally not worth the slot when you can use standard phazers and heal bell users?

 

[LHF]

a pokemon that stands out to me in my newfound expedition into gsc ou is granbull. it is the only pokemon in all of gsc with access to heal bell and roar, providing a unique kind of role compression i've found myself tempted to utilize. has anyone top level in the tier used them at all, or is the role compression generally not worth the slot when you can use standard phazers and heal bell users?

I cannot speak as a high level OUer, but here's my own thoughts that may or may not be useful on why it's not very seen.

Granbull is a wonderful part of the GSC UU metagame(imo, top 2 pokemon behind Haunter, but I wouldn't hate on anyone who calls it #1!) and makes use of these moves quite a lot in this format. Return + Heal Bell + Rest Talk is a very viable set, and some sets do manage to squeeze in Roar as an emergency phazer even if I personally would opt into other sets.

As far as OU... The role compression argument is definitely an interesting aspect to Granbull, but think about it this way. To use both those moves, Granbull will lack a means of recovery for itself. Without Rest+Talk, Granbull would be sleeping for two turns every single time, giving incredible passivity to a Pokemon that is already fairly frail without boosts in the UU metagme, MUCH less OU's power level. And obviously running Heal Bell + Roar + RestTalk is... well, a bad set that doesn't do anything quite meaningful. Stalls are already strapped for slots in GSC, and unfortunately Granbull, despite its unique trait, probably wouldn't hack it on them.

 

[Jorgen]

Yeah, simply put, Granbull just doesn't have the stats to hang in OU.

 

[GrapeSauna]

There seems to be a commonality in Spikes users also having a self-destructing move in their move set (Cloyster and Forretress, for example) - it's possible that I'm not seeing something immediately apparent but, offensive advantage aside, wouldn't it be more strategically sound to keep a Spikes user from exploding and have them stay in the fight for as long as possible in the case that, say, a Rapid Spin user would render their setup redundant?

 

[JoshSketch]

Are there any good tutors available for OU with availability right now? With tours slowing down for me in other tiers I kinda want to get back into OU after some shody results in GSC GC. I still know how to play, what works, what doesn't, and practice makes perfect obviously but I'd like some in-depth talk about the tier so I can fine-tune my play. Haven't really surrounded myself with enough GSC friends and I feel awkward just walking into GSCcord again to ask lol.

 

[jus]

There seems to be a commonality in Spikes users also having a self-destructing move in their move set (Cloyster and Forretress, for example) - it's possible that I'm not seeing something immediately apparent but, offensive advantage aside, wouldn't it be more strategically sound to keep a Spikes user from exploding and have them stay in the fight for as long as possible in the case that, say, a Rapid Spin user would render their setup redundant?

Spikes users main purpose more often than not is to simply just get the spike up. A lot of the time you will know an opponents 6 early on or at the very least you will know if they don’t have a rapid spinner, so the “defensive” reasoning for why they often carry explosion would be to use it as a pivoting move while also gaining great value on the opposing pokemon once it’s outlasted its main use.

There are many such cases where people have dropped explosion on these pokemon to make more use of their defensive/offensive strengths which is more commonly seen with HP Fire/Ghost Forretress and the niche Rapid Spin/Rest Cloyster

 

[Jorgen]

Spikes users main purpose more often than not is to simply just get the spike up. A lot of the time you will know an opponents 6 early on or at the very least you will know if they don’t have a rapid spinner, so the “defensive” reasoning for why they often carry explosion would be to use it as a pivoting move while also gaining great value on the opposing pokemon once it’s outlasted its main use.

There are many such cases where people have dropped explosion on these pokemon to make more use of their defensive/offensive strengths which is more commonly seen with HP Fire/Ghost Forretress and the niche Rapid Spin/Rest Cloyster

Adding to this:

The Explosion threat is a big part of what makes these Pokemon good, apart from Spikes. Without it, they have no offensive presence and very specialized defensive utility, a big part of which is tanking Snorlax, and they're even kinda mediocre at that because they can't even Phaze and absolutely crumple to the right coverage move.

It's kind of a coincidence that the two main Spikers happen to also Explode; if Skarm got Spikes it'd be the premier spiker in the tier imo. But since these two get it, it's nicer to have the Explosion in your back pocket than not, even if you're in a position where you're trying to outlast a spinner.

Also, Forry often runs no Explosion because it's a lot worse at using it effectively. Cloyster's STAB Surf means it's hard to stick a Normal resist in front of it; Forry is often left biting on a rock. Plus, Forry is immune to Toxic, so it's a lot better at not withering away and consequently needing the burst damage to make its presence felt at low health.

 

[shreves0]

What's keeping Meganium from true OU status? It seems to have 2 great roles it can fill on teams. Is it hard to fit? Does it have flaws that I don't see? Do people just not use it enough? What's holding it back?

 

[Jorgen]

What's keeping Meganium from true OU status? It seems to have 2 great roles it can fill on teams. Is it hard to fit? Does it have flaws that I don't see? Do people just not use it enough? What's holding it back?

Defensive set is a roadblock for a ton of stuff, but the standard set relies on Synthesis. This makes it vulnerable to status and simply getting stalled out of its 8PP. Granted, you could run RestTalk on it, but even if you solve the Synthesis set's biggest glaring issue, it's still just slightly different Umbreon, who itself isn't exactly the most-used Pokemon nowadays. And Meganium is different in a worse way to boot: Unlike Umbreon, which squares up much better against more contemporaneous threats like Gengar and Jynx, Meganium is optimized for older metagames featuring the likes of Marowak and Vaporeon. And if you're hoping it has a unique support niche: not exactly. Dual screens support is generally pretty mediocre due to the time limit and lack of OHKOs in the tier, and anything else it could do (e.g. status) is hardly unique to it.

Offensive set with SD can get plenty of chances to set up, sure, but can't hurt anything without a boost, can never hope to break Skarmory no matter how many boosts it gets, will importantly lose to Curselax, and just generally needs the right team matchup. Even then, it's no world-beater, it's just okay.

 

[Meriksn]

With Snorlax, Zapdos, Cloyster, and the majority of good offensive Pokémon in GSC OU being Generation 1 Pokémon, to which degree does one shoot oneself in the foot by limiting oneself to only Generation 1 Pokémon in teambuilding? What comes to mind is a BORAT-style team with Golem over Steelix, or a Thief offense with Gengar, Nidoking and Jynx, but these are just two out of a multitude of possible combinations. Can you get away with it?

 

[Jorgen]

With Snorlax, Zapdos, Cloyster, and the majority of good offensive Pokémon in GSC OU being Generation 1 Pokémon, to which degree does one shoot oneself in the foot by limiting oneself to only Generation 1 Pokémon in teambuilding? What comes to mind is a BORAT-style team with Golem over Steelix, or a Thief offense with Gengar, Nidoking and Jynx, but these are just two out of a multitude of possible combinations. Can you get away with it?

Absolutely. Gen 1 Pokemon just have wider movepools than their gen 2 counterparts. NidoGarTar but with Golem > Ttar is another way to go about it. It gets tricky if your opponent knows you can't bring e.g. skarm, though. And if you limit yourself to just gen 1 moves, too, you're going to have a bad time. And a smidge worse still if you try to make a team that's competitive in gen 1 as well.

 

[Meriksn]

And if you limit yourself to just gen 1 moves, too, you're going to have a bad time.

Obviously. No Spikes, no Curse, no Hidden Power, the list goes on. That was never the purpose of this hypothetical.

And a smidge worse still if you try to make a team that's competitive in gen 1 as well.

Not the initial idea, but it leads to an interesting follow-up question. If you have exactly one PC box available, and this 20-Pokémon "roster" of sorts is meant to be able to form a sufficient variety of competitive teams in both RBY and GSC OU, who do you bring and why? Individual movesets can be changed as you wish between battles and are subject to no restrictions outside of what the format regulations already say, but all twenty Pokémon have to be legal in both formats.

My list is Snorlax, Zapdos, Cloyster, Gengar, Exeggutor, Golem, Nidoking, Jynx, Alakazam, Machamp, Vaporeon, Jolteon, Marowak, Rhydon, Starmie, Tauros, Chansey, Dragonite, Moltres, and maybe Tentacruel. Are there any obvious mistakes in Pokémon that have no business being on the list, or ones that have been left out?

 

[Eeveeto]

For the sake of it, checked my Teambuilder and I have 3 teams with Gen 1 Pokemon only. None of it is in my list of good teams, but its possible to get wins with them sometimes:

https://pokepast.es/5fd8fe69e229ea4d < Team built around Dynamic Punch Sandslash.
https://pokepast.es/7e15b2611fb5b7d7 < Growth + Roar + BP (slow) Jolteon, Moltres and Egg are the main recipients.
https://pokepast.es/43eb3d1744769c37 < Pikachu + boom guys. If you replace Pika with either Jolteon or Vaporeon, this becomes almost an standart team. Golem is another option if you want an extra boom instead of a sweeper.