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CAP 3 CAP 3 – Part 4 (Style)
- Thread starter Gothic Togekiss
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I voted offensive because I'm hopelessly in love with dual Grass/Fire STAB and the awesome potential therein, but TBH I'm fine with anything as long as it's offensively threatening (preferably from the special side) and can actually outspeed something useful. Hyra's spread with HP/Spd switched would make me a happy camper.
Note, I recognize the following post is about spreads, however, I would just like to emphasize the importance of originality.
^ That is Heatran's spread. If we go with your spread, Hyra, we'll have essentially made a Heatran- :( (With arguably no typing advantage, since Fire / Grass and Fire / Steel are both awesome)
I'll be honest, even though I have been pushing for special emphasis over physical, just for the sake of creativity this might cause me to shift over to physical offense for this guy.
I would also like a preference of one defensive stat over the other, though the smaller stat still being considered "good defensively." I am still pushing for balanced, just somewhat original balance.
The following is purely hypothetical spread that merely attempts to be original.
A spread like 110 HP / 105 Atk / X Def / 60 SpA / Y SpD / 70 Spe
would total 345, giving us at least 195 (assuming we reach 540 of course, which seems to be a safe lower limit) for the defenses. Just for conversation's sake, let's say we decide to play around and make it 112 Def and 83 SpD. 110 HP + 112 Def gives us a physical tank (pretty much only Torkoal can claim this for the Fires, and Heatran somewhat but it is predominantly used as a special tank), and 110 HP + 83 SpD definitely makes it able to take a few special hits.
My point? In terms of maximizing creativity while still remaining relatively balanced for Fire types, going with high HP seems to be the easiest call. Only Entei has high HP for a Fire in the standard metagame. Since Special Attack seems to emphasized on average over Attack, I would recommend going with Attack over Special Attack. In terms of speed, we have fast and slow Fire Pokemon, so just for the sake of being able to pump more into the defenses I think slow is pretty easy to decide upon as well.
That leaves the real ambiguity in the defensive stats themselves...which I am sure we will be able to discuss in the next topic ;D
Go balanced!
EDIT: Remember, I tried to emphasize originality as much as possible, so view in that perspective.
EDITEDIT: If you don't want to read...high HP, more defensive than offensive with emphasis on physical offense type of "balance" is the main spread I can see that would yield the most original Fire Pokemon base stat spread.
91 90 106 130 106 77
^ That is Heatran's spread. If we go with your spread, Hyra, we'll have essentially made a Heatran- :( (With arguably no typing advantage, since Fire / Grass and Fire / Steel are both awesome)
I'll be honest, even though I have been pushing for special emphasis over physical, just for the sake of creativity this might cause me to shift over to physical offense for this guy.
I would also like a preference of one defensive stat over the other, though the smaller stat still being considered "good defensively." I am still pushing for balanced, just somewhat original balance.
The following is purely hypothetical spread that merely attempts to be original.
A spread like 110 HP / 105 Atk / X Def / 60 SpA / Y SpD / 70 Spe
would total 345, giving us at least 195 (assuming we reach 540 of course, which seems to be a safe lower limit) for the defenses. Just for conversation's sake, let's say we decide to play around and make it 112 Def and 83 SpD. 110 HP + 112 Def gives us a physical tank (pretty much only Torkoal can claim this for the Fires, and Heatran somewhat but it is predominantly used as a special tank), and 110 HP + 83 SpD definitely makes it able to take a few special hits.
My point? In terms of maximizing creativity while still remaining relatively balanced for Fire types, going with high HP seems to be the easiest call. Only Entei has high HP for a Fire in the standard metagame. Since Special Attack seems to emphasized on average over Attack, I would recommend going with Attack over Special Attack. In terms of speed, we have fast and slow Fire Pokemon, so just for the sake of being able to pump more into the defenses I think slow is pretty easy to decide upon as well.
That leaves the real ambiguity in the defensive stats themselves...which I am sure we will be able to discuss in the next topic ;D
Go balanced!
EDIT: Remember, I tried to emphasize originality as much as possible, so view in that perspective.
EDITEDIT: If you don't want to read...high HP, more defensive than offensive with emphasis on physical offense type of "balance" is the main spread I can see that would yield the most original Fire Pokemon base stat spread.
I voted balanced.
Let's have a look at the typing combo
Resistances- Electric (2*) Grass (4*) Steel (2*)
It's not an ice type when it comes to resistances, but it's not too impressive either. The only thing steel is ever used for is gyro ball, electric is generally t-bolt, which goes together with ice beam and Grass is often paired with poison (neutral and super effective respectively).
Weaknesses- Flying (2*) Poison (2*) Rock (2*)
Again, not truly bad, but nothing to write home about. Air slash and brave bird come on a few pokemon, but not very often. Poison comes on fewer. Rock's the main problem; every man and his poochyena uses stone edge AND it gives a weakness to the oh so common stealth rock. Of course, it could be worse.
Types combinations that resist both Fire and Grass- Fire/Anything not weak, Dragon/anything not weak.
Considering the popularity of Salamence and Heatran, this may be a problem. Then again, HP Ice or ground takes care of them if it leans to the special side (or ice beam/earth power if we want to give it even more punch) and Earthquake or Ice punch take care of them if it's physical.
From what I understand, Fire/Grass has a healthy number of pokemon it deals SE to, most of the rest it deals neutral to. HOWEVER, unlike a theoretical Ice/Electric pokemon, it doesn't completely sacrifice it's defensive typing.
Considering the number of supporting options open to a grass pokemon, I'd like to see something that has a bit of bulk, coupled with a nice attack stat(s) behind it (speed isn't as important).
E.G.
100/105/80/55/70/120
BST-530
Let's have a look at the typing combo
Resistances- Electric (2*) Grass (4*) Steel (2*)
It's not an ice type when it comes to resistances, but it's not too impressive either. The only thing steel is ever used for is gyro ball, electric is generally t-bolt, which goes together with ice beam and Grass is often paired with poison (neutral and super effective respectively).
Weaknesses- Flying (2*) Poison (2*) Rock (2*)
Again, not truly bad, but nothing to write home about. Air slash and brave bird come on a few pokemon, but not very often. Poison comes on fewer. Rock's the main problem; every man and his poochyena uses stone edge AND it gives a weakness to the oh so common stealth rock. Of course, it could be worse.
Types combinations that resist both Fire and Grass- Fire/Anything not weak, Dragon/anything not weak.
Considering the popularity of Salamence and Heatran, this may be a problem. Then again, HP Ice or ground takes care of them if it leans to the special side (or ice beam/earth power if we want to give it even more punch) and Earthquake or Ice punch take care of them if it's physical.
From what I understand, Fire/Grass has a healthy number of pokemon it deals SE to, most of the rest it deals neutral to. HOWEVER, unlike a theoretical Ice/Electric pokemon, it doesn't completely sacrifice it's defensive typing.
Considering the number of supporting options open to a grass pokemon, I'd like to see something that has a bit of bulk, coupled with a nice attack stat(s) behind it (speed isn't as important).
E.G.
100/105/80/55/70/120
BST-530
My point is in the opening post, he said BOTH defenses have to be higher than the HIGHEST attacking stat.
Hm, many of the proposed spreads are giving our Fire/Grass Pokemon high Defense. Am I the only one that believes that a burning plant is relatively fragile?
Anyway, I want to see if you agree with the reasoning of my spread:
100/75/79/115/94/82
Defensively, I gave it roughly the physical defenses of Milotic and the special defenses of Noctowl. 100 HP for the obvious ability to make 101 Subs.
...
Then again, maybe 80/89/104 would be better defensively. Perhaps I'm too attached to the 101 Subs.
Offensively, I didn't believe that a burning plant could physically harm much of anything, but I still gave it a "usable" Attack in case we decided to give it Swords Dance later on. The 115 Special Attack puts it as strong as Raikou and Lucario, which is fine with me.
I expect a plant on fire to be a little "rushed," so to speak, thus it should have some speed. I wanted this thing to outrun Gyarados, as well. 82 Speed trumps Gyarados--and Milotic, too.
...Okay, the more I type this post, the more I think this is trying to go too far ahead, but I would like to see everyone's perceptions of what this Pokemon should be able to do in order for me to tailor a better spread to those ideas. Maybe the next poll or two will give me the info I need.
Anyway, I want to see if you agree with the reasoning of my spread:
100/75/79/115/94/82
Defensively, I gave it roughly the physical defenses of Milotic and the special defenses of Noctowl. 100 HP for the obvious ability to make 101 Subs.
...
Then again, maybe 80/89/104 would be better defensively. Perhaps I'm too attached to the 101 Subs.
Offensively, I didn't believe that a burning plant could physically harm much of anything, but I still gave it a "usable" Attack in case we decided to give it Swords Dance later on. The 115 Special Attack puts it as strong as Raikou and Lucario, which is fine with me.
I expect a plant on fire to be a little "rushed," so to speak, thus it should have some speed. I wanted this thing to outrun Gyarados, as well. 82 Speed trumps Gyarados--and Milotic, too.
...Okay, the more I type this post, the more I think this is trying to go too far ahead, but I would like to see everyone's perceptions of what this Pokemon should be able to do in order for me to tailor a better spread to those ideas. Maybe the next poll or two will give me the info I need.
I would definitely prefer a balanced stat total. I think it was agreed that we need another defensive fire aside from Heatran. It also should have a way to deal with an opposing Heatran. The grass type could even be utilized for powerful grass attacks from both sides. Both types have great, high power moves from both sides- I would propose not making broken attack stats.
I humbly think it should look like this:
(in the format of HP/ATK/DEF/SP. ATK/SP. DEF/SPD)
85/98/106/90/80/106
BST: 565
Base 85 HP yields 374 HP level 100. 369 HP is good enough as it allows near perfect leftovers recovery and 4 switches into stealth rock. Base 98 attack yields 324 level max. It isn't much, but it is enough for people to use a move like Flare Blitz or Power Whip effectively.
Base 106 defense allows it to take random non STAB hits. I didn't have a particular reason for this, it can be toyed with if nessecary. Base 90 sp. atk is an important number, as it reaches just enough to OHKO the Dragons with HP Ice all the time with Life Orb. It also seperates itself from Heatran with a lower special attack.
Base 80 special defense allows it to switch into some weak hits with its decent resistances. The most important number is probably speed: At Base 106, it comfortably outspeeds Chomp. It also outspeeds neutral nature Alakazam and other base 120's with a +nature.
With this spread, this pokemon would be an effective subseeder, creating powerful subs that can still be replenished relatively quickly (yes it is a compromise). His great speed allows him to put up a sub before the enemy attacks. He also can be a threatening sweeper if he was given stat boosting moves (read: Swords Dance). It could even pull off a Chain-Chomp type set (Swords Dance/Power Whip/Overheat/Hp Ground/Ice).
With this BST, Levitate and Flash Fire would go well (imo).
Just my $.02. Any comments? (I definitely don't mean to rush any decisions- I'm just listing what I envision the pokemon would fit best with based on the BST).
I humbly think it should look like this:
(in the format of HP/ATK/DEF/SP. ATK/SP. DEF/SPD)
85/98/106/90/80/106
BST: 565
Base 85 HP yields 374 HP level 100. 369 HP is good enough as it allows near perfect leftovers recovery and 4 switches into stealth rock. Base 98 attack yields 324 level max. It isn't much, but it is enough for people to use a move like Flare Blitz or Power Whip effectively.
Base 106 defense allows it to take random non STAB hits. I didn't have a particular reason for this, it can be toyed with if nessecary. Base 90 sp. atk is an important number, as it reaches just enough to OHKO the Dragons with HP Ice all the time with Life Orb. It also seperates itself from Heatran with a lower special attack.
Base 80 special defense allows it to switch into some weak hits with its decent resistances. The most important number is probably speed: At Base 106, it comfortably outspeeds Chomp. It also outspeeds neutral nature Alakazam and other base 120's with a +nature.
With this spread, this pokemon would be an effective subseeder, creating powerful subs that can still be replenished relatively quickly (yes it is a compromise). His great speed allows him to put up a sub before the enemy attacks. He also can be a threatening sweeper if he was given stat boosting moves (read: Swords Dance). It could even pull off a Chain-Chomp type set (Swords Dance/Power Whip/Overheat/Hp Ground/Ice).
With this BST, Levitate and Flash Fire would go well (imo).
Just my $.02. Any comments? (I definitely don't mean to rush any decisions- I'm just listing what I envision the pokemon would fit best with based on the BST).
COH: It doesn't have to be a flaming plant. The panda suggestion seems to be the one that makes the most sense with a balanced design. Panda's are decently bulky, and I can see it fitting in pretty well.
I like Kingdrom's spread, but i don't think something bulky like this needs to be THAT fast, adding in chlorphyl. I'd sacrafice some of the speed for Sp. attack, or maybe even just flip them.
I like Kingdrom's spread, but i don't think something bulky like this needs to be THAT fast, adding in chlorphyl. I'd sacrafice some of the speed for Sp. attack, or maybe even just flip them.
I HATE the panda idea. Panda = Grass? How would it be part Grass? (Habitat and food can't be considered. By that logic, monkeys and giraffes could be part Grass.)
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38366&page=5
From post #103 and on. After the initial qualitative decryption, which is pretty clear, in my opinion, I basically made some numbers that seemed reasonable, proposed it, and everyone agreed more or less. It doesn't follow any kind of formula.
I've been thinking about this for a long time, along with considering speed for the offensive criteria. In the end, I concluded that HP isn't a determinant factor when deciding the style of the pokémon: The highest defense stat being higher than the highest offensive stat nearly guarantees that the pokémon will work better defensively than offensively, and the opposite is true, too. HP aids a defensive build, letting you having not that high defenses. But if we use this criteria, by having non-astronomical defenses thanks to good HP means it will have offenses 20% as non-astronomical, tops.
I'm not totally happy about this criteria, BTW, so if someone has a better idea, PLEASE propose it in the process guide workshop topic.
BTW, I voted "balanced". I'd love to expand on my reasons, as well as trying Revenankh, and writing a bit more about the style criteria, but I don't have that much time now. So, more in a few hours.
No he didn't. It says that, to be offensive, both defensive stats have to be 20% lower than the higher attacking stat. Then to be defensive, both offensive stats have to be 20% lower than the higher defending stat.
I'm not sure how to make this any more clear. You need to reread it more carefully, because you're clearly missing something in the definition. Note: The key is that the dependant stats are both 20% lower than the highest independant stat.
It's hard to quantify HP for a specific side, so it's just something that would be debated in the stat spread thread.
Link in my sig has most of the information
Can't really base how the thing would react based on a real life circumstance. Otherwise, Heatran would melt itself into a liquid.
Heatran is immune to fire and lives in a volcano; how is it going to melt itself?
I only wanted the Pokemon to beat Gyarados, anyway.
Okay...now where did you get that from? I don't even see that in the opening post.
Maybe I should have used Time Mage version of the description rather than Dane, as it's seem more user-friendly :P
If it's immune to fire, that doesn't matter.
Anyway, let's get off that. It's a pointless argument.
Anyway, let's get off that. It's a pointless argument.
Good point.
But alas, a discussion for another day.
--
I still think offensive is the way to go. Two resistances? With the right movepool, this thing could hit all types for at least neutral damage. Anything but a sweeper on this guy is a waste.
His typing completely screws him over in terms of defensiveness. Stealth Rock and spikes do more damage because of the fire, and Toxic Spikes...
But alas, a discussion for another day.
--
I still think offensive is the way to go. Two resistances? With the right movepool, this thing could hit all types for at least neutral damage. Anything but a sweeper on this guy is a waste.
His typing completely screws him over in terms of defensiveness. Stealth Rock and spikes do more damage because of the fire, and Toxic Spikes...
How are they different? Better not be the "offensive if attack stats are 20% higher than defense stats", because I've already shown they're different.
Maybe the description quote should've had examples in it?
Since when do spikes do more based on type? Not only that, but since when do you count spikes and toxic spikes immunity towards how well something can tank? Guess Blissey isn't a defensive Pokemon then, since it gets hit by spikes and toxic spikes just as hard as this guy would, right?
Besides, have you thought about how much healing this guy gets? Leech Seed, Synthesis, and Morning Sun to name a few. That easily offsets 25% damage from Stealth Rock, especially since very little will hit him for SE damage (basically just air slash, rock slide, and stone edge).
Uhh, I don't get how people are saying just because it has a weakness to Stealth Rock that it cannot be good defensively...
Zapdos / Moltres / Articuno, Regice, Gyarados, Togekiss, Walrein, Shuckle all fair absolutely fine as defensive Pokemon, even with their weakness to Stealth Rock.
It obviously just isn't the typing. Look at the potential support movepool for a Fire / Grass; obviously with balanced stats favoring defense, this Pokemon can be fine defensively.
Zapdos / Moltres / Articuno, Regice, Gyarados, Togekiss, Walrein, Shuckle all fair absolutely fine as defensive Pokemon, even with their weakness to Stealth Rock.
It obviously just isn't the typing. Look at the potential support movepool for a Fire / Grass; obviously with balanced stats favoring defense, this Pokemon can be fine defensively.
I was being slightly sarcastic in regards to that.
Dane's version said:
Both are the same except one imply the collective total of two stats.
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