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DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

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Kira said:
I am shocked some of you thought the list was real... come on, if Arcanine and Smeargle were OU material then so would Togekiss/Hippowdon who were not on that fake list.

Glad to know I was one of the few that posted in thier that could easily say it was a fake.
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Had they said they were going to pick the top 75% or something, and Arcanine and Smeargle were OU, I wouldn't have believed them. Nobody would have. But I checked a couple, like Smeargle, and noticed he'd jumped from 78th to 63rd in 2 months, so then I thought it may be true.

Anyway, are we actually going through with this? If so, have we asked Colin if he's going to a a UU ladder this month?
 
Azumarill should definitely be a BL because of its 654 attack...it has got aquajet of power 60.If it is raining its power goes up in 120 which can OHKO any UU pokemon other than quagsire.
 
This isn't a thread to discuss breeding and natures and the like. This thread is for tiering.
 
This topic kind of confuzzles me, as I thought tiers were determined by usage...whatever. Anyway, I think Toxicroak should be moved up to BL... it's very unpredictable and has great offense. I used this Toxicroak which wrecked quite a bit of havoc:

Toxicroak @ Leftovers
Dry Skin
Modest/Rash
4 HP
252 SA
252 Spd

Nasty Plot
Focus Blast
Hidden Power Flying
Sucker Punch

Dry Skin is great for absorbing water moves and compliments Rain Dance fairly well. Sucker Punch is great for stopping sweepers and taking out Gengars/Starmies (though I don't think it's a OHKO), and a Focus Blast after a Nasty Plot does around 78% to Blissey. It's nice to be able to switch on Machamp or Heracross and HP Fly them to death.

Of course, there's many other variations, such as Sub/FPunch/SPunch, Swords Dance versions, Choice Band versions...
 
Anyway, I think Toxicroak should be moved up to BL... it's very unpredictable and has great offense. I used this Toxicroak which wrecked quite a bit of havoc:
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Ok.

Toxicroak @ Leftovers
Dry Skin
Modest/Rash
4 HP
252 SA
252 Spd

Nasty Plot
Focus Blast
Hidden Power Flying
Sucker Punch

Dry Skin is great for absorbing water moves and compliments Rain Dance fairly well. Sucker Punch is great for stopping sweepers and taking out Gengars/Starmies (though I don't think it's a OHKO), and a Focus Blast after a Nasty Plot does around 78% to Blissey. It's nice to be able to switch on Machamp or Heracross and HP Fly them to death.

Of course, there's many other variations, such as Sub/FPunch/SPunch, Swords Dance versions, Choice Band versions...
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I don't understand? You provided a set and listed pokemon it can beat in OU and not UU. What makes Toxicroak too powerful for the current UU metagame? You said generic "it's very unpredictable and has a great offense". That can apply to many pokemon currently in UU.

Just because a UU pokemon can perform well in OU, it should be BL? Toxicroak is now warranting enough usage to be considered OU now?

I think you're a bit confused.
 
I'm not sure whether or not this is the correct place to post this, but according to my argument:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39424

Sandslash is right about Donphan power, more depending on how much you value sand Veil and Swords Dance. Now, the question I have is, why is Sandslash UU while Donphan is OU? I'm not going to suggest a place for Sandslash to move, but I'm just bringing that out there.
 
Uhh, truthfully, until the UU metagame is established, we shouldn't even have a BL tier (note this isn't what I feel, I'm just staying consistent with objectivity or whatever as the reasoning behind the tiers)

Everything isn't OU right now should be considered UU. A Pokemon's status in BL has nothing to do with how it fairs in OU, and everything to do with how it fairs in the UU environment...and since, well, that is barely developed...I'd say its safe to say we don't really have any reasoning for the majority of the BL list.
 
I don't see how Pinsir is UU. I'm not going to barge in with the "mini-Heracross" argument because obviously it is nowhere near Heracross's power. But the only thing I can see that can switch in on Pinsir is Hitmontop. With Stealth Rocks, Top is able to be 2HKO'd by Close Combat, and is 3HKO'd by EQ, but and the only way it can take it down is with Stone Edge, but even that only does a pathetic 50-60% back, thanks to Pinsir's great Defense.

I'm also sure that everyone agrees that Pinsir is the most broken Pokémon in UU... Sorry for bringing this up as I'm sure it has been discussed countless times before, but I felt something needed to be said.
 
You are not alone in thinking this, and at one point it was considered being moved, however with Obi's proposed retiering all of the proposed changes seem to have vanished into the ether, and "UU" seems to be in limbo for the moment.
 
Yagami Light said:
Is that enough to account for Donphan being OU and Sandslash being BL though?
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Because Sandslash sucks? No really, it does. Donphan only has a crapload more HP, atk, defense, s.def and even SPECIAL ATTACK. Oh and a decent priority move in Ice Shard, Roar and even Charm as if its physical abilities weren't enough as it is. Its not bad as a physical sweeper but even thats stretching it abit.
 
Aldaron said:
Uhh, truthfully, until the UU metagame is established, we shouldn't even have a BL tier (note this isn't what I feel, I'm just staying consistent with objectivity or whatever as the reasoning behind the tiers)

Everything isn't OU right now should be considered UU. A Pokemon's status in BL has nothing to do with how it fairs in OU, and everything to do with how it fairs in the UU environment...and since, well, that is barely developed...I'd say its safe to say we don't really have any reasoning for the majority of the BL list.
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Isn't that the point of the thread? To establish the UU metagame?
 
Yagami Light said:
Oh whoops, didn't even notice I made that typo. Sandslash is UU while Donphan is OU. A difference which I believe is too vast.
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Yeah, but who knows? If Donphan suddenly stops being used, does he have a reason to go down to BL, or would he be shoved swiftly into UU like Tentacruel would? Is there any reason Donphan couldn't be UU?
 
Bologo said:
Yeah, but who knows? If Donphan suddenly stops being used, does he have a reason to go down to BL, or would he be shoved swiftly into UU like Tentacruel would? Is there any reason Donphan couldn't be UU?
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Too strong comes to mind. Its not as if Donphan has issues with coverage when it has some freedom to tank, its just defensive utility in OU because it fits that niche better.
 
smeargle is good but not OU material, i have a feeling there are a couple of decent smeargle move sets floating around currently
smeargle@focus sash
spore
endeavor

i have noticed a smeargle being used to that i cant remember last 2 moves but it was a level 1 smeargle (12 hp)
 
Forsety said:
Too strong comes to mind. Its not as if Donphan has issues with coverage when it has some freedom to tank, its just defensive utility in OU because it fits that niche better.
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Ehh, I'm just saying, if we were thinking about allowing Marowak into UU, then why not Donphan if its usage drops?

Also, there's plenty of things that hit just as hard as Donphan in UU, and a lot of them have boosting moves as well. Eg. Pinsir

I can't really see Donphan being a threat in UU if he goes there, especially since it has that awful special defense, which can easily be capitalized on when he only has 50 base speed to work off of. He might be able to take 1 special attack, but he's going to have a lot of trouble taking another one since he has no recovery move besides Rest.

Another point to remember, is that a lot of the walls/tanks in UU are Grass-typed, which means that they can walk all over Donphan, especially since they resist the STAB Earthquake and SE Ice Shard is only 5 BP more than a NVE STAB Earthquake.

If people can handle the hard hitters in UU right now, they can definitely handle Donphan.
 
Just a question, why is Armaldo in UU? He's got the same attack as Pinsir (btw, only 3 pokemon have an attack stat higher than 125, two of them don't know the meaning of the word movepool (Glaceon and Flareon) and the other one is Kingler) and doesn't have a piece of crap SpD. He gets STAB on X-Scissor and Stone Edge, gets Rock Polish, Swords Dance, Rock Blast, Earthquake, Aerial ace, Cross poison, Brick break, Iron tail (for what they're worth) and SR. Although he only resists Normal and Poison, he doesn't have any glaring 4x weaknesses, his actual weaknesses are Rock, Water and Steel (Rock and water ain't nice, but who cares about steel).

He also has a useable special attack (70; same as crobat), not great, but useable if you really want (too bad he doesn't get any useable special attacks besides HP, Flash Cannon, Ancient Power, Hyper beam and Water pulse). His only main problem is his speed (which still beats out Gastrodon, Bastiodon, Macargo, Probopass, Quagsire, and equals a whole heap of other pokemon).

Here's a list of pokemon that outspeed him and get stab on one of it's weaknesses in UU;
Aggron
Bibarel x
Blastoise
Cloyster x
Crawdaunt x
Dewgong x
Golduck x
Gorebyss x
Huntail x
Kabutops
Kingler x
Lanturn
Lapras
Lumineon x
Luvdisc x
Mawile
Omastar x
Phione x
Probopass
Politoad x
Poliwrath
Quilfish
Relicanth x
Sharpedo
Wailord x
Walrein
Whiscash x

Now let's take out all the pokemon very rarely used (marked with crosses, although this may come under fire). That leaves;
Aggron
Blastoise
Kabutops
Lanturn
Lapras
Mawile
Poliwrath
Probopass
Quilfish
Sharpedo
Walrein

There's only three of them there that aren't weak to stone edge or earthquake; Blastoise, Sharpedo and Poliwrath (who, unfortunately for Armaldo, resists both stabs). Most Poliwrath sets are 3HKO'd by unboosted EQ (possible 2HKO with Choice band, definite with SR), Sharpedo dies to everything, especially X-Scissor and Blastoise with Max def/HP is 2HKOed by unboosted Stone Edge and SR (assuming Max attack and nature Armaldo, which you should unless your going support). There's very little that likes taking one of his STABs, and although he's got 40 (yes 40) less base speed than Pinsir, he has 75/100/80 for defenses; pretty bulky for UU. With choice band, Swords danced up, or with trick room support, very little is getting past Armaldo (specially if you use Aerial Ace, considering how common fighters are in UU).
 
Does your list of rarey used UU's relate to Shoddy Battle or Wi-fi?

Because if it's the former I have doubts that Mawile, Qwilfish or Walrein see more usage than Cloyster, Golduck, Relicanth and Gorebyss
 
I've seen Gorebyss once, Relicanth once, Golduck a few times. I've seen Mawile quite a few times, Walrein I see heaps (although probably because I've been couting hail teams), and Qwilfish (stupid spelling) I've never seen; I was mostly basing it off something I saw. Sorry if I was wrong about that, I'll edit it if you want...
EDIT: Darg, I've missed out so much stuff and made so many errors in these two posts, its not funny. Still, the point stands; Armaldo has the same base attack and defense as Pinsir + 10 base HP and 5 SpD (whoop dee do) + STAB on stone edge + Rock Polish + Support moves - 40 base speed - Close combat (in exchange for BB) and Quick attack
 
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