Uh, I'd say being effectively itemless 90% of the time is pretty hurtful myself. Care to try battling with no items attached?
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Evasion: Test or Ban?
- Thread starter kamikaen
- Start date
Just to elaborate on this point: If your pokemon lives for 6 turns on the average, then in about 46.85% of battles, Brightpowder didn't help your Pokemon at all. On the other hand, if you start living significantly longer than that, why the hell don't you have Leftovers attached?
Evasion is only two moves, where Fire Blast has many siblings. I agree with the most popular option here, which, to the question, "what is the purpose of standard play", gives this answer, "ban as few Pokemon as possible while avoiding 'overcentralization'". I think the same thing can be said for moves; ban as few moves as possible while avoiding overcentralization.
Also, if Fire Blast truly was "as bad" as Double Team, I would personally see no problem with banning it (aside from the above argument).
Also, if Fire Blast truly was "as bad" as Double Team, I would personally see no problem with banning it (aside from the above argument).
Umbreons can be easily taunted due to their low speed. Thats the best thing to do to them most of the time anyway. What are they going to do? Faint Attack you? What makes Zapdos dangerous is its speed and relative bulk combined.
Also, a Snorlax can actually outrun an Umbreon, and probably would if the sole purpose was to stop Umbreon. I somehow doubt Double Team would be that bad however.
As for a more realistic example: try No Guard Machamp, or Foresight Medicham.
Incorrect. It missed 20% of the time because you gave your opponent one free turn. If you had better skill, your opponent would not have the chance to Double Team.
It is not your opponent's fault if he manages to get in a Dragon Dance on a Gyarados. It is not your opponent's fault if you give Boah a Subsitute.
If you're willing to take the 20% chance of miss over the 33% less damage (+50% defense from Cosmic Power), or the 20% chance to miss over the 0% chance to hit (SD / Extreme Speed Lucario Sweep in the late game)... go on ahead. While Double Team is certainly good if you get lucky... if you simply get "average performance" on Double Team, you'd actually be much better if you did something else.
The true question is... are you, a battler, willing to waste 1 turn to do something that will take on the average 5 turns to pay off (It won't work 80% of the time, and even after 5 turns... it will only work 67% of the time) ? Do you really think your pokemon can survive for that long?
I see no reason why something that has not received testing should be denied it because of biased opinions. That is all this thread is at the moment, opinions; you cannot make assumptions about something that has never been implemented. If you say that it adds to the luck factor, which is involved with every attack you use; then we should go ahead and ban anything that boost evasion. Who's to say that Bright Powder Garchomp won't cause just as much over-centralization as something that takes 2 turns to set up. Me personally I would more rather spend those two turns throwing up a substitute and sword dancing. I really see no reason as to why these moves would be considered broken, I say we test it!
My point would've been the reverse really. Since they are less effective than already given things, there's no point in banning them.
I am opposed to evasion, in that I believe that it reduces the skill involved in the game, and increases the presence of luck, which I do not believe would be in any way beneficial to the metagame.
~ Obviously, like any other stat-ups, evasion can be phazed. This is, in a way, easier than phazing the likes of Swords Dancers and Nasty Plotters, simply because a Double Teamer doesn't pack the insane power that offensive stat-uppers do, and, as far as I know, all the common phazing moves go straight round evasion. The biggest problem, in my opinion, with this argument, is the fact that quite simply anything (Well, nearly) can learn Double Team or Minimise. It throws phazing out the window. Sure, if you start Double Teaming with a Tyranitar, I'll just send in Hippowdon and Roar you out. But if you start Double Teaming with a Vaporeon, what can I do? I'd then have to stick Roar on my Vaporeon counter. The list goes on; it's just overcentralising. The same thing can arguably be said about Gravity; so few viable Pokes learn it (To my memory, Blissey and Dusknoir) that it's very situational to suggest it as a way of getting past evasion.
~ Aerial Ace, Faint Attack, Aura Sphere, any others I've missed, are another commonly used argument as a way of bypassing evasion. They're perfectly effective against anything fragile, but two of them will hardly scratch anything that's got any kind of defenses, which most Double Teamers will have, whilst the other is only available to two Pokes in OU, only one of which gets STAB on it.
~ The most common argument I've heard is that it's no different to moves just not having 100% accuracy, or the 'natural' critical hit chance. Thing is, you can't feasibly ban all moves without 100% accuracy, no side effects that aren't guaranteed to occur, as you're left with such a small range of moves that the metagame is just going to become overly limited. Same goes for crits; keeping Lucky Chant up the whole game isn't practical. And even then, there's the fact that moves do variable damage anyway. However, in an attempt to make the game as skilled an affair as possible, minimising the presence of luck is, in my opinion, the best way to go about it.
~ As for the difference between Double Teaming and letting the likes of Gyarados stat up; the difference is simple. I know that if I let Gyarados get a Substitute, he's going to be sitting on about 500 Attack and 350 speed (Not sure how accurate that is) and is in a position to do damage to my team. However, I can switch in my Starmie/Gyarados counter, knowing that I can survive an attack unless they run bite, and OHKO back with Thunderbolt.
However, if the same Gyarados decides to use Double Team instead, I don't know what to do. I know he can 2HKO my Starmie, but I can OHKO it. I switch in on the DT, miss with Thunderbolt twice, and lose my Starmie, opening my team up to a Gyarados sweep. Alternatively, I can hit first turn, and I've got nothing to worry about. The difference is that the game becomes about predicting the RNG, as opposed to predicting your opponent.
~ As for the 'if you were more skilled, your opponent wouldn't be able to use it anyway' argument, I'm not sure :s The simple fact of the matter is, unless you have one Pokemon that is faster than your opponents entire team, which is also in a position to OHKO them, then they will have a chance to use [move]. If [move] happens to be Double Team, then your opponent will be able to get one off, however much skill you have.
All in all, whether you think evasion should be banned depends entirely which viewpoint you take; that luck is a given in the games and so we may as well just accept it, or that in order to make it as skilled an affair as possible, the presence of luck should be minimised. Personally, I would be inclined to agree with the latter, as my overly one-sided, opinionated post probably shows :p However, don't get me wrong, I do believe that testing would be a good idea; I just don't think that testing is going to change anything.
~ Obviously, like any other stat-ups, evasion can be phazed. This is, in a way, easier than phazing the likes of Swords Dancers and Nasty Plotters, simply because a Double Teamer doesn't pack the insane power that offensive stat-uppers do, and, as far as I know, all the common phazing moves go straight round evasion. The biggest problem, in my opinion, with this argument, is the fact that quite simply anything (Well, nearly) can learn Double Team or Minimise. It throws phazing out the window. Sure, if you start Double Teaming with a Tyranitar, I'll just send in Hippowdon and Roar you out. But if you start Double Teaming with a Vaporeon, what can I do? I'd then have to stick Roar on my Vaporeon counter. The list goes on; it's just overcentralising. The same thing can arguably be said about Gravity; so few viable Pokes learn it (To my memory, Blissey and Dusknoir) that it's very situational to suggest it as a way of getting past evasion.
~ Aerial Ace, Faint Attack, Aura Sphere, any others I've missed, are another commonly used argument as a way of bypassing evasion. They're perfectly effective against anything fragile, but two of them will hardly scratch anything that's got any kind of defenses, which most Double Teamers will have, whilst the other is only available to two Pokes in OU, only one of which gets STAB on it.
~ The most common argument I've heard is that it's no different to moves just not having 100% accuracy, or the 'natural' critical hit chance. Thing is, you can't feasibly ban all moves without 100% accuracy, no side effects that aren't guaranteed to occur, as you're left with such a small range of moves that the metagame is just going to become overly limited. Same goes for crits; keeping Lucky Chant up the whole game isn't practical. And even then, there's the fact that moves do variable damage anyway. However, in an attempt to make the game as skilled an affair as possible, minimising the presence of luck is, in my opinion, the best way to go about it.
~ As for the difference between Double Teaming and letting the likes of Gyarados stat up; the difference is simple. I know that if I let Gyarados get a Substitute, he's going to be sitting on about 500 Attack and 350 speed (Not sure how accurate that is) and is in a position to do damage to my team. However, I can switch in my Starmie/Gyarados counter, knowing that I can survive an attack unless they run bite, and OHKO back with Thunderbolt.
However, if the same Gyarados decides to use Double Team instead, I don't know what to do. I know he can 2HKO my Starmie, but I can OHKO it. I switch in on the DT, miss with Thunderbolt twice, and lose my Starmie, opening my team up to a Gyarados sweep. Alternatively, I can hit first turn, and I've got nothing to worry about. The difference is that the game becomes about predicting the RNG, as opposed to predicting your opponent.
~ As for the 'if you were more skilled, your opponent wouldn't be able to use it anyway' argument, I'm not sure :s The simple fact of the matter is, unless you have one Pokemon that is faster than your opponents entire team, which is also in a position to OHKO them, then they will have a chance to use [move]. If [move] happens to be Double Team, then your opponent will be able to get one off, however much skill you have.
All in all, whether you think evasion should be banned depends entirely which viewpoint you take; that luck is a given in the games and so we may as well just accept it, or that in order to make it as skilled an affair as possible, the presence of luck should be minimised. Personally, I would be inclined to agree with the latter, as my overly one-sided, opinionated post probably shows :p However, don't get me wrong, I do believe that testing would be a good idea; I just don't think that testing is going to change anything.
Moves affecting the opponent that are not affected by evasion:
Block
Defog
Destiny Bond
Foresight
Gravity
Haze
Heart Swap
Imprison
Lock-on
Magic Coat
Me First
Mean Look
Mind Reader
Miracle Eye
Odor Sleuth
Pain Split
Perish Song
Psych Up
Role Play
Sketch
Skill Swap
Snatch
Spider Web
Spikes
Stealth Rock
Toxic Spikes
Transform
Trick Room
Yawn
Aura Sphere
Magical Leaf
Shock Wave
Swift
Trump Card
Aerial Ace
Bide
Faint Attack
Magnet Bomb
Shadow Punch
Struggle
Vital Throw
If you look at the above list, you'll see that there are many ways to counter evasion. Haze and Perish Song seem to be the best two. We just don't want to use them!
Block
Defog
Destiny Bond
Foresight
Gravity
Haze
Heart Swap
Imprison
Lock-on
Magic Coat
Me First
Mean Look
Mind Reader
Miracle Eye
Odor Sleuth
Pain Split
Perish Song
Psych Up
Role Play
Sketch
Skill Swap
Snatch
Spider Web
Spikes
Stealth Rock
Toxic Spikes
Transform
Trick Room
Yawn
Aura Sphere
Magical Leaf
Shock Wave
Swift
Trump Card
Aerial Ace
Bide
Faint Attack
Magnet Bomb
Shadow Punch
Struggle
Vital Throw
If you look at the above list, you'll see that there are many ways to counter evasion. Haze and Perish Song seem to be the best two. We just don't want to use them!
i remember reading somewhere that the effects of odor sleuth cannot be baton passed.
I don't see what all the fuss is about.
Any competitive player would more rather substitute and set up rather than spend two turns raising your evasion; all the while being beaten down by never miss attacks.
Also anything with Taunt could easily shut down the Cress described which would use DT, CM, Moon Light, Attack
Any competitive player would more rather substitute and set up rather than spend two turns raising your evasion; all the while being beaten down by never miss attacks.
Also anything with Taunt could easily shut down the Cress described which would use DT, CM, Moon Light, Attack
question I'd have is to test it for what? Test it whether it breaks the metagame? Because I doubt it would do that.
Test it for whether it makes the game less strategy based and more luck based (the current reason it's banned)? I doubt we need to test to know that, and I doubt there are many who would prefer a metagame of more luck and less skill. :/
Test it for whether it makes the game less strategy based and more luck based (the current reason it's banned)? I doubt we need to test to know that, and I doubt there are many who would prefer a metagame of more luck and less skill. :/
@Agahnim-- yeah, but test for WHAT?
Personally I don't care whether evasion is banned or not and I don't mind testing it out. But in some ways, I agree with ChouToshio. I think we've become lost in what we're trying to argue here.
Evasion was originally banned because it was deemed "too powerful" for the metagame. Not because it reduces skill. The thing is now it's probably not "too powerful" for the metagame because there are so many ways to stop it. So are we basically banning it because we don't want to have more luck in the game?
That seems to be the general consensus among those who want evasion banned. It's probably their only argument and it's hard to argue against it. This topic will be argued to death and we will get nowhere because that argument will always be thrown out there and there's really no rebuttal until we actually figure out why we are banning evasion.
If it's because it's too powerful for the metagame then it should definitely be tested. If it's because it reduces skill then there's no point because we already know it does.
This theorem of evasion is interesting, indeed.
As 100% of you would know just how fucking irritating Evasion is (A certain Dusclops moveset in the Hax Tower comes to mind), keep in mind that no battle is all skill. Indeed, battle can be around 50% skill and 50% luck. Why?
Simple. Luck refers to the act of good fortune, while Hax refers to the act of bad fortune or lack of luck. What we need to look at is not Luck, but Chance.
Chance, the act of the possibility of something happening. The great bitch who toys with us before castrating us just before the gravy stroke of a sweep with a critical hit Thunderbolt on a Focus Sash Jolteon against a DD6 Gyara. As is with all games, chance is a massive point here.
The massive problem lies within Double Team, famously quoted by dmon2 of GameFAQS as 'The move for cheaters only.' Why is this move so reviled? Is it because of the ease of access compared to other moves such as Charge Beam and Stealth Rock, which some say are a bit dirty, in the way that DT is an over-the-counter move unlike the other two? Is it because of the PP constraints of DT's hefty experience?
Nope, it's because of that boost of chance in the favour of the user of DT. On one playthrough of Emerald, against Wallace's Ludicolo, I had to practically resort to Dusclops to off the Samba Duck, simply because I wasn't hitting it with anything else, all the while letting it slowly kill me with Surf and Giga Drain. You should have heard me cheer when the bastard dropped like your momma's pants.
The next case was a major one, that against my good nemesis Flint and his Drifblim. Naturally it uses DT, I hit with Crunch, failing to kill it, and the bitch BPs to Steelix: Problem. EQ won't hurt it big time, and yet it isn't killing me, so one had to switch to my Gardevoir in the hopes that Focus Blast wastes it. First ball misses, idiot AI uses Screech, second one misses, same again, third hit is the charm.
Now, what if that wasn't Steelix, but some PP Whore like Dusknoir, a glass cannon like Rampardos or even BrightVeil Chomp, eh? Wouldn't that be unbalanced or what? Yes, since Tyranitar is used a lot in conjunction with Chompy, this would indeed imply that using said setup like that would practically doom you, not to mention the evils of a DTing Bibarel, instantly getting a +2 Evasion boost in UU: It would practically devastate the place.
Sure, there ARE moves that never miss, but seriously, aside from Scyther who gets extra power from it, what other pokemon's liable to OHKO BVChomp with Aerial Ace? Unless we had Aura Sphere, but then only two things learn that move and those things are needlessy outrun by Chomp, with only one of them getting STAB.
Exactly. By legalising DT, we give opportunity for movesets like this...
Ninjask@ Focus Sash
252 Speed/252 Def/4HP
Jolly
-Double Team
-Swords Dance
-Substitute
-Baton Pass
Obviously Jask would DT first, hope lousy defenses let it survive or that said Chance of missing works, then SubDance. Once Attack's maxed, up that evasion more until almost dead, then proceed to BP to BrightChomp or whatever sweeper and watch as the for disconnects in utter destruction and your branding as a 'cheater'.
Yes, this thing can be countered with Haze, and yes, Blizzard never misses in Hail, but with the certainty that everyone isn't using Hail, what are the chances of the whole shindig succeeding? Though one is loathe to admit that agreeing with Obi is right, he is in saying that banning DT is merely the best way to ensure that said moves are not abused in teams so that they are invincible. Just another thought: Imagine DDGyara with DT, and guess how many teams it'll rip through.
Surefire prevention of boosting chance for the opponent is better than almost certain defeat of the opponent, and simply put into my own terms...
DT stands for Double Team, and Dirty Tactics.
As 100% of you would know just how fucking irritating Evasion is (A certain Dusclops moveset in the Hax Tower comes to mind), keep in mind that no battle is all skill. Indeed, battle can be around 50% skill and 50% luck. Why?
Simple. Luck refers to the act of good fortune, while Hax refers to the act of bad fortune or lack of luck. What we need to look at is not Luck, but Chance.
Chance, the act of the possibility of something happening. The great bitch who toys with us before castrating us just before the gravy stroke of a sweep with a critical hit Thunderbolt on a Focus Sash Jolteon against a DD6 Gyara. As is with all games, chance is a massive point here.
The massive problem lies within Double Team, famously quoted by dmon2 of GameFAQS as 'The move for cheaters only.' Why is this move so reviled? Is it because of the ease of access compared to other moves such as Charge Beam and Stealth Rock, which some say are a bit dirty, in the way that DT is an over-the-counter move unlike the other two? Is it because of the PP constraints of DT's hefty experience?
Nope, it's because of that boost of chance in the favour of the user of DT. On one playthrough of Emerald, against Wallace's Ludicolo, I had to practically resort to Dusclops to off the Samba Duck, simply because I wasn't hitting it with anything else, all the while letting it slowly kill me with Surf and Giga Drain. You should have heard me cheer when the bastard dropped like your momma's pants.
The next case was a major one, that against my good nemesis Flint and his Drifblim. Naturally it uses DT, I hit with Crunch, failing to kill it, and the bitch BPs to Steelix: Problem. EQ won't hurt it big time, and yet it isn't killing me, so one had to switch to my Gardevoir in the hopes that Focus Blast wastes it. First ball misses, idiot AI uses Screech, second one misses, same again, third hit is the charm.
Now, what if that wasn't Steelix, but some PP Whore like Dusknoir, a glass cannon like Rampardos or even BrightVeil Chomp, eh? Wouldn't that be unbalanced or what? Yes, since Tyranitar is used a lot in conjunction with Chompy, this would indeed imply that using said setup like that would practically doom you, not to mention the evils of a DTing Bibarel, instantly getting a +2 Evasion boost in UU: It would practically devastate the place.
Sure, there ARE moves that never miss, but seriously, aside from Scyther who gets extra power from it, what other pokemon's liable to OHKO BVChomp with Aerial Ace? Unless we had Aura Sphere, but then only two things learn that move and those things are needlessy outrun by Chomp, with only one of them getting STAB.
Exactly. By legalising DT, we give opportunity for movesets like this...
Ninjask@ Focus Sash
252 Speed/252 Def/4HP
Jolly
-Double Team
-Swords Dance
-Substitute
-Baton Pass
Obviously Jask would DT first, hope lousy defenses let it survive or that said Chance of missing works, then SubDance. Once Attack's maxed, up that evasion more until almost dead, then proceed to BP to BrightChomp or whatever sweeper and watch as the for disconnects in utter destruction and your branding as a 'cheater'.
Yes, this thing can be countered with Haze, and yes, Blizzard never misses in Hail, but with the certainty that everyone isn't using Hail, what are the chances of the whole shindig succeeding? Though one is loathe to admit that agreeing with Obi is right, he is in saying that banning DT is merely the best way to ensure that said moves are not abused in teams so that they are invincible. Just another thought: Imagine DDGyara with DT, and guess how many teams it'll rip through.
Surefire prevention of boosting chance for the opponent is better than almost certain defeat of the opponent, and simply put into my own terms...
DT stands for Double Team, and Dirty Tactics.
Ok I basically lost respect for this post when you started comparing battle tower hax to competitive battling hax which just isn't the same because we all know the AI cheats.
I lost even more respect when you implied that a focus sash jolteon owning a 6 DD gyara was due to chance...
But I read the post anyway and you want to know the chance of "the whole shindig succeeding"? If ninjask wants to DT, it will be dead 75% of the after 1 DT, 60% of the time after 2 and 50% of the time after 3. Congrats on spending 3 turns using DT where there's a bloody high chance you will be dead before reaching 3 DTs and it's only after 3 DTs where the chances are actually in your favor.
I would not support the testing of evasion moves as I feel that evasion would make the metagame luck-based. Sure, Double Team and Minimize would take a long time to set up and be effective, but a even a single Double Team could make moves miss purely due to luck.
I don't think it should be tested or even considered because the game has luck built into it. I do not advocate further increasing the luck factor in battles. Critical hits, Sand Veil/Snow Cloak and similar luck factors are present in battles, and can net a win or a loss due to them. Why should we include another aspect of the game influenced by luck?
I don't think it should be tested or even considered because the game has luck built into it. I do not advocate further increasing the luck factor in battles. Critical hits, Sand Veil/Snow Cloak and similar luck factors are present in battles, and can net a win or a loss due to them. Why should we include another aspect of the game influenced by luck?
i have been hit by a ninjask using an evasion lowering attack just the other week, a quick pokemon using it in that way would basically allow it to sub and set up at more or less its own free will, we should not go testing it down this road, but to me having this clause here then having brightpowder as a LEGAL item seems a little counter productive
The main problem with using these to hit Double Teamers, as I outlined in my other post, is that absolutely anything can learn Double Team.
Say Gyarados starts to Double Team. This is fine, as I have Celebi with Perish Song. But what do you do when Tyranitar starts to? Ok, so now I've got to fit Roar in on my Hippowdon. Togekiss starts to Double Team, so I'll need Roar on my Zapdos. Weavile starts to DT up? Better stick Roar on Gyarados. See where this is going?
As everything can learn it, it is impossible to just say that you won't have evasion problems, because whatever your Hazer is, it can't stop everything, leaving you needing at least 3 or 4 Phazers per team. Then that's starting to overcentralise.
That's really only gonna happen if people start putting DT on every random pokemon. Most good battlers won't do that because a lot of these pokemon already have 4 moveslot syndrome as it is without adding a mediocre luck based move to the list.
Honestly if DT really worries you then it's only fair that you sacrifice a moveslot for a DT-counter move when your opponent sacrifices a moveslot for DT.
When team building, if anything can learn Double Team, you've got to take into account all the viable things (Pretty much anything bulky) that can learn it, and make sure your counters have a way of getting round it. That will certainly mean having to fit three or four phazers into a team at least. This is at best impractical, as an awful lot of things aren't capable of learning a phazing move.