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Evasion: Test or Ban?
- Thread starter kamikaen
- Start date
Really? Oops :s Didn't realise that.
In that case, counters to Double Team are even more limited. Out of the listed moves, Haze, Perish Song and Yawn seem to be the most viable. Out of those, the 'viable' users of those are;
Haze:
Weezing
Tentacruel
Vaporeon
Dragonite (maybe)
Milotic
Perish Song:
Celebi
Mismagius
Yawn:
Slowbro
Snorlax
Hippowdon
Togekiss
Vaporeon
Umbreon
Empoleon
I may have missed a couple, but those are the ones I can see using any of those well, that are OU viable. You'll probably need at least two, if not more, of those to counter all the potentially viable Double Teamers. I would say that that is overcentralising.
In that case, counters to Double Team are even more limited. Out of the listed moves, Haze, Perish Song and Yawn seem to be the most viable. Out of those, the 'viable' users of those are;
Haze:
Weezing
Tentacruel
Vaporeon
Dragonite (maybe)
Milotic
Perish Song:
Celebi
Mismagius
Yawn:
Slowbro
Snorlax
Hippowdon
Togekiss
Vaporeon
Umbreon
Empoleon
I may have missed a couple, but those are the ones I can see using any of those well, that are OU viable. You'll probably need at least two, if not more, of those to counter all the potentially viable Double Teamers. I would say that that is overcentralising.
Actually I don't. Just because a pokemon can learn a certain move, it doesn't mean I have to prepare for it. I only have to prepare for what the metagame demands that I have to. My team will adapt accordingly to the metagame. If DT is unbanned, there will be a certain few pokemon that may utilise that strat (umbreon maybe) and I may decide to prepare my team against it. There are also plenty of other pokemon who can use it but won't because it just isn't worth the moveslot and will be nothing more than a gimmick.
I think it will break THIS metagame, yes, but I don't think it would break a metagame in which teams are prepared for evasion moves.
This is the problem, its not that the moves themselves are game breaking, its that people don't want to have to accommodate their teams for it in standard play.
On the topic of brightpowder, I'd leave it unbanned as its a fixed evasion modifier that can only affect the pokemon thats holding it, like sand veil and snow cloak. Its not groundbreaking in our current meta-game, just annoying, like being hit with critical hits. As someone said previously, I know I'd rather have my pokemon holding leftovers or life orb or whatnot then brightpowder.
EDIT: Does Yawn go through substitute? Only because I assume half of pokemon that have DT would have substitute, making Yawn a shaky counter for it.
This is the problem, its not that the moves themselves are game breaking, its that people don't want to have to accommodate their teams for it in standard play.
On the topic of brightpowder, I'd leave it unbanned as its a fixed evasion modifier that can only affect the pokemon thats holding it, like sand veil and snow cloak. Its not groundbreaking in our current meta-game, just annoying, like being hit with critical hits. As someone said previously, I know I'd rather have my pokemon holding leftovers or life orb or whatnot then brightpowder.
EDIT: Does Yawn go through substitute? Only because I assume half of pokemon that have DT would have substitute, making Yawn a shaky counter for it.
^no, it does not.
Also if the reason we ban DT is, the reason I like, that we want a game with more skill less luck, than banning luck-based items would be viable. I'm totally thinking the same as Obi. >.>
Also if the reason we ban DT is, the reason I like, that we want a game with more skill less luck, than banning luck-based items would be viable. I'm totally thinking the same as Obi. >.>
I'm all for banning BrightPowder, but let's be careful not to go down the slippery slope. Once we ban one item that increases luck, then we'll eventually want to ban ANY item that increases luck, such as:
Focus Band
King's Rock
Lax Incense
Lucky Punch
Razor Claw
Razor Fang
Scope Lens
Stick
I assume that we're level-headed enough to not let it get that far, but it doesn't mean that we shouldn't keep that in mind.
Focus Band
King's Rock
Lax Incense
Lucky Punch
Razor Claw
Razor Fang
Scope Lens
Stick
I assume that we're level-headed enough to not let it get that far, but it doesn't mean that we shouldn't keep that in mind.
Okay, so Gyarados uses Double team. What are its other 3 attacks? You either will get a weaker, slower Bulky Gyara who's 2 attack syndrome prevents you from sweeping... or you'll get a weaker slower Gyara than the Dragon Dancer.
Weavile starts to DT up. What the hell? You have an 75% chance of getting hit on that turn. 75% of the time, you'd be better off swords dancing. Its not like Weavile sweeps anyway... the low BP on every one of his attacks makes him do less damage than a Miltank Return. Without a boost from Choice Band... Weavile is perhaps one of the worst candidates for Double Team.
Really, 75% of the time, Double Team does nothing. How do you stop a Double Teaming Weavile? Rejoice! It can't have Choice band or Swords Dance. Off the top of my head, Walrein will utterly wall anything from Weavile. On the other hand, if you used Swords Dance or CB Brick Break on the switch, there might be some problems if my Walrein is injured / stealth rocks in play. For a more typical OU pokemon, I'd like to see what DT Weavile could do to a Swampert or Skarmory.
Blissey's and Cresselia's single turn double-teaming is better spent using T-Wave, which offers 25% higher evasion and quarter's your opponent's speed. In contrast, Double Team offers 25% evasion (on the first turn, less on later turns), and goes away when you're forced to switch out from that Mixape that came in.
Are you really going to risk Dragon Dancing when the opponent's Thunderbolt has an 75% chance of shutting you down? Porygon2 still walls you. Gardevor still walls Gyarados. You don't need a DT counter for Gyarados, his typical counters already pwn him even harder because he isn't dragon dancing on those turns.
Dragon dance + Double Team. What are your other 2 attacks? Regardless of your answer, P2 and Gardevoir still walls you. With the lack of taunt... Skarmory can switch in freely and wall you till it phazes you. Celebi still has Perish Song and won't take much from Ice Fang. More typically, I'd expect it to just smack you twice with grass knot.
Gyarados's list of counters grows once you remove the notion of Taunt and/or Dragon Dance, while DT doesn't stop any of its hard counters.
---------------------
Ultimately: Double Team offers you a choice. The choice is, give up 1 turn and moveslot now, for a 25% chance that you get a free turn on each turn. On the average, 1 Double Team requires 4 turns to break even. 2 Double Teams requires you to live 5 turns to break even on the average.
And after that... your opponent can still throw things like No Guard Machamp at you completely negating the deal.
You missed quick claw.
Double Team can stop any number of counters; that's why I'm against it. Starmie is 2HKO'd, IIRC, by an unboosted Gyarados Earthquake. The luck involved can mean that Starmie, Celebi, Tangrowth, all the reliable counters, can be beaten when evasion is introduced. The luck aspect means that you can miss four times in a row after a single DT, or you could hit first time and every time after that. It's this inconsistency that means that his 'counters' are suddenly made less reliable.
Admittedly, Weavile was a bad example :p It was just that though; to illustrate a point.
The fact that Double Team is overall an unreliable strategy shouldn't undermine the fact that it will, often, bring about a haxxy miss or something which will cost someone the game.
Yeah, average is the key word there. You might DT six times and I still hit you every go, or you might DT once and I might not be able to hit you until you've killed my entire team. A +1 evasion Blissey could stay in on Infernape if it wanted, hope that four Close Combats miss, and kill it off with Seismic Toss. It throws prediction out of the window; whilst you can predict your opponent, predicting what the game is going to choose next is completely different.
Furthermore; the million pound question; what does evasion add to the game? You've said yourself that it's an unreliable strategy, it rarely works out for the user, it's furthering the presence of luck in the game at the expense of skill.
The key issue here is that some people, like me, believe that minimising the presence of luck is the most beneficial way to go to make the metagame as competitive and enjoyable as possible. Others accept that as luck is going to be present in the game anyway, we might as well just let it all go. Both are perfectly valid viewpoints; I just don't think that we're going to get very far until we decide which one would be more beneficial to the general metagame.
Admittedly, Weavile was a bad example :p It was just that though; to illustrate a point.
The fact that Double Team is overall an unreliable strategy shouldn't undermine the fact that it will, often, bring about a haxxy miss or something which will cost someone the game.
Yeah, average is the key word there. You might DT six times and I still hit you every go, or you might DT once and I might not be able to hit you until you've killed my entire team. A +1 evasion Blissey could stay in on Infernape if it wanted, hope that four Close Combats miss, and kill it off with Seismic Toss. It throws prediction out of the window; whilst you can predict your opponent, predicting what the game is going to choose next is completely different.
Furthermore; the million pound question; what does evasion add to the game? You've said yourself that it's an unreliable strategy, it rarely works out for the user, it's furthering the presence of luck in the game at the expense of skill.
The key issue here is that some people, like me, believe that minimising the presence of luck is the most beneficial way to go to make the metagame as competitive and enjoyable as possible. Others accept that as luck is going to be present in the game anyway, we might as well just let it all go. Both are perfectly valid viewpoints; I just don't think that we're going to get very far until we decide which one would be more beneficial to the general metagame.
Hi my name is Haze. IIRC, DT raises one Pokemon's evasion by 10% and this is how it really works: For instance you manage to get 6 DTs up, a move with a 100% accuracy(no not Aura Sphere and such) will reduce to 40%, a move with 80% accuracy will reduce to 32%, etc etc.
Testing this would be interesting as we'll start seeing [insert move here that cancels evasion effects], never-miss moves such as Aerial ace, etc or even weird Pokemon builds like Bulky Vital Throw Machamp.
Vital Throw Machamp seems a little silly tbh, when you've got the awesome No Guard to play with. I guess it could work with a Guts variant, but even after a Guts boost DynamicPunch is more powerful, and still never misses.
Throw on HP EVs and Leftovers, and it takes 3 hits to KO Starmie. (IE: Spinner Starmie or Counter-star sets). Unboosted, Gyarados is completely walled by Celebi (4-hit or 5-hit KO with Ice Fang and Leftovers... don't forget Recover) and Tangrowth (5-hit KO).
Waterfall 5 to 6 hit KOs Porygon2 with Leftovers (Remember: Porygon2 and Gardevoir Traces Intimidate and counter-intimidates Gyarados on the switch in)
Porygon2, Celebi, and Starmie all have Recover. Gardevoir has Wish, Tangrowth has Morning Sun. Assuming Gyarados Double Team, these counters all pwn Gyarados even harder now. You're not getting through these guys, and Porygon2, Starmie, and Gardevoir all OHKO back with T-Bolt.
If you're not breaking their recover damage, that doesn't stop the fact that you're completely and utterly walled.
Incorrect. A single haxxy miss evens the playing field. It still cost you one turn to set up double team. It is only fair that it pays off every now and then.
And the average is skewed towards the attacker, not the double teamer.
4 Close Combats missing in a row against a +1 Evasion Blissey is a 0.4% chance of happening. For those who played RBY, this is equivalent to the probability that Swift missed. (damn RBY bug).
Again: for those who are truely worried about the miss, Perish Song, Yawn, No Guard Machamp, Vital Throw... the possibilities are almost endless if you really get worried about Double Team. "Hard Counters" to double team exist. And not only that, if you don't have a hard counter, your typical strategy will work the majority of the time... except the opponent has one less moveslot to work with.
So... you have Double Team / Rest / Calm Mind ? Whats your last attack? Surf? I raise you a Lapras, Vaporeon, Quagsire, Parasect, or Toxicroak. Lapras can Perish song, Vaporeon can roar, Parasect answers with Swords Dance and Toxicroak can Swords Dance or Nasty plot faster than you can Calm Mind.
A pokemon with at least 5 complete counters is not something to be feared. And thats just off the top of my head. I doubt it will get through a No Guard Machamp either. Dynamic Punch lowers suicune's accuracy by 50% because of confusion hax, and that prevents rest / cm / whatever you plan to do.
Ignoring the obvious question of course of... what the hell was your opponent doing for 12 turns while he let you set up 6 Calm Minds and 6 Double Teams?
Seriously I welcome double team to the metagame because it means the people who try to abuse it are more likely to make foolish moves and give me easy kills.
Let's take gyarados who has just used double team. I send in something that is clearly gonna ohko it with an electric attack. Normally, any competent player will switch out. But hey...the gyarados just used double team. Let's take that 25% chance that it won't die and stay in. Sure...I might just be unlucky and end up missing but I play by probability and I know that 75% of the time I'm not the one that's gonna end up owned. If you're willing to bet against me and take that 25% chance then by all means be my guest.
I think people are just scared by "what ifs" rather than looking at the actual probabilities of the success of using double team. Even if double team reduced accuracy to 99% it still wouldn't be acceptable because "what if I'm that 1% and it misses and costs me the game". Well what if I got on a plane tomorrow and it crashes? There's a small chance but it may just happen to me. Should I ban myself from taking planes?
Let's take gyarados who has just used double team. I send in something that is clearly gonna ohko it with an electric attack. Normally, any competent player will switch out. But hey...the gyarados just used double team. Let's take that 25% chance that it won't die and stay in. Sure...I might just be unlucky and end up missing but I play by probability and I know that 75% of the time I'm not the one that's gonna end up owned. If you're willing to bet against me and take that 25% chance then by all means be my guest.
I think people are just scared by "what ifs" rather than looking at the actual probabilities of the success of using double team. Even if double team reduced accuracy to 99% it still wouldn't be acceptable because "what if I'm that 1% and it misses and costs me the game". Well what if I got on a plane tomorrow and it crashes? There's a small chance but it may just happen to me. Should I ban myself from taking planes?
Ooh, yay, a controversial discussion.
Okay, since the last time we had an argument on theorymon I ended up spending 6 hours debating how a Cosmic Power Deoxys-S was not Uber, I'll heed Obi's advice and not debate on theorymon grounds as a principal argument.
Double Team increases the effect of luck. Now, Pokémon as a game cannot and should not exist without luck; the game would be vastly different without hax, critical hits, or Serene Grace. At the same time, Double Team has the potential to increase the magnitude of the luck factor to the point of frustration, where the game isn't fun anymore. Rolling a die over and over until your move FINALLY hits isn't the way the game should be played, really.
So, uh... I kinda think where things are now is fine (surprise!). Evasion Clause should still exist and be frequently used by people that don't want Double Team or Minimize fucking with the game, and the simple option of playing without it should remain. I mean, it's that simple.
----------
Unrelated side note: Why do only some people get to be "policy maker"s? It kinda sounds a bit elitist to say "okay, these guys get to decide the fate of everyone"... I guess...
Another side note: When we get down to specifics like item bans, then Pokémon gets even more complex than it is. How hard would it be to explain to everyone who's picking up Shoddy that "oh by the way you can't use Soul Dew on these guys, Leftovers on these, Brightpowedr on these...".
Last side note: There's really a movement to unban the Lati twins? Ah, nothing says "fun" like base 130 SAtk 110 Speed Dragons with no 4x weaknesses, Draco Meteor, Calm Mind, and Recover.
Okay, since the last time we had an argument on theorymon I ended up spending 6 hours debating how a Cosmic Power Deoxys-S was not Uber, I'll heed Obi's advice and not debate on theorymon grounds as a principal argument.
Double Team increases the effect of luck. Now, Pokémon as a game cannot and should not exist without luck; the game would be vastly different without hax, critical hits, or Serene Grace. At the same time, Double Team has the potential to increase the magnitude of the luck factor to the point of frustration, where the game isn't fun anymore. Rolling a die over and over until your move FINALLY hits isn't the way the game should be played, really.
So, uh... I kinda think where things are now is fine (surprise!). Evasion Clause should still exist and be frequently used by people that don't want Double Team or Minimize fucking with the game, and the simple option of playing without it should remain. I mean, it's that simple.
----------
Unrelated side note: Why do only some people get to be "policy maker"s? It kinda sounds a bit elitist to say "okay, these guys get to decide the fate of everyone"... I guess...
Another side note: When we get down to specifics like item bans, then Pokémon gets even more complex than it is. How hard would it be to explain to everyone who's picking up Shoddy that "oh by the way you can't use Soul Dew on these guys, Leftovers on these, Brightpowedr on these...".
Last side note: There's really a movement to unban the Lati twins? Ah, nothing says "fun" like base 130 SAtk 110 Speed Dragons with no 4x weaknesses, Draco Meteor, Calm Mind, and Recover.
Even if it is "inprobable" that a move is going to miss, it still subtracts a degree of skill (and enjoyment) from the metagame.
Lets say you have a move that takes out my pokemon 40% of the time and kills yours 60% of the time. The advantage would be with me, but it would still not make for a fun or skillfull game. This is not taking the subject out of context because there are several times where two pokémon can both ohko each other so it would come down to whether the fater pokémon's move hits or not.
Also, I'm not worried about gyara using DT, more about something bulky like umby using it whilst abusing its good defenses to stay alive, before proceeding to own you.
I don't have strong feelings about evasion-raising moves, but I see a lot of holes in the arguments people are making for the continued banning of them. I'll go over them one at a time.
Double Team is too powerful
I think Dragontamer is doing a fantastic job of showing that Evasion-raising moves aren't overpowered, so I won't have to do any math here. Thanks, Dragontamer!
One thing we need to understand is the difference between the Battle Tower and the Shoddy ladder. In the Battle Tower, one loss means you're out. Since Pokémon has a lot of luck in it, you will eventually get unlucky in the Battle Tower and lose. When you lose because your opponent hits with a Fire Blast, you might be disappointed, but you won't be all that upset. After all, it's more likely that Fire Blast hits than that it misses. When you lose due to a Crawdaunt Quick Claw/Guillotine-ing your entire team to death, you cry hax, and rightly so. After all, the odds of that happening are very low.
It was a real dick move on Nintendo's part to have what is essentially a never-ending, single-elimination game and then to fill it with hax moves. However, I argue that it's these two factors together (single-elimination and high-luck effects) that make DT and OHKOs so unpopular and give them a bad rap. If DT is allowed on the Shoddy Ladder and you lose a game because of it, it's not a big deal. Sure, your ranking goes down, but unless Double Team is overpowered, you'll win at least one game because your opponent's Double Team didn't pay off for every game you lose because it did.
EDIT: Special note on Garchomp here: If your biggest argument for banning Double Team is that it would make Garchomp too powerful, you could easily argue for the banning of Garchomp instead.
Double Team centralizes the metagame
Like X-Act has been saying, there are many, many ways to 'counter' Double Team. I think what a lot of people are missing is that Double Team often won't need a counter. Most of the time, you're going to hit through one level of Evasion if your moves are fairly accurate. On average, moves (especially physical ones) are a lot more powerful now than they were a few generations ago. This means that Double Team users have to be significantly luckier for their gamble to pay off.
In RBY, if you needed a Swift-Dancer to beat Double Team, that's centralization. If you now need to have a No Guard Machamp OR a Technician Pokémon with a never-miss move OR Foresight/Odor Sleuth OR Yawn OR Trump Card OR Haze OR etc., etc., that's not centralization. Where I come from, we call that de-centralization.
Now, if your argument is that you won't be able to counter all the threats once Double Team is allowed, that's basically saying that you don't want the game to become less centralized. This is a personal preference and there's nothing inherently wrong with it, but I think it's important that we call it what it is.
Double Team adds luck and removes skill from the game
I honestly believe that Pokémon has so much luck in the form of inaccurate moves, critical hits, confusion, sleep duration, and added effects that Double Team's effect on the total amount of luck in the game would be negligible. However, even the claim (made famous by Obi) that Double Team will strictly increase the amount of luck in the game is not necessarily true.
I predict that if Double Team were to be introduced, one of two things would happen.
A. People use it for a while, realize that it's hurting their rankings, and stop using it for the most part. I believe this is the most likely outcome.
B. People continue to use it, and the metagame shifts from less accurate moves toward more accurate moves to counter the change. This in turn reduces the amount of luck in the game.
Let's talk about B for a moment. If my opponent has a bunch of moves with base 100 accuracy, I can't really see myself wasting a turn using Double Team in order to give those moves a 75% accuracy. However, if I predict my opponent is going to throw Focus Blasts at me, lowering their accuracy to 52.5% with one Double Team is a bit more tempting. If Double Team really did become popular, it could conceivably discourage the use of inaccurate moves. Whether this would completely counter the amount of luck introduced by Double Team itself is not readily apparent. I think we'd need a testing period to see what the effect on the metagame would be.
Double Team doesn't add anything to the game
My previous point more-or-less covers this claim as well. Double Team is a viable strategy for avoiding attacks that already have a low accuracy rating. It's still not surefire, and you won't catch me using it most of the time, but allowing it does open more options and may decentralize the game. Again, if you like the current amount of centralization in the game and you don't want to have to counter another strategy, that's a perfectly legitimate opinion. It's a decision that can be made by the community and/or the policy makers after a test period to see what Double Team's actual effect on the metagame is.
Double Team is too powerful
I think Dragontamer is doing a fantastic job of showing that Evasion-raising moves aren't overpowered, so I won't have to do any math here. Thanks, Dragontamer!
One thing we need to understand is the difference between the Battle Tower and the Shoddy ladder. In the Battle Tower, one loss means you're out. Since Pokémon has a lot of luck in it, you will eventually get unlucky in the Battle Tower and lose. When you lose because your opponent hits with a Fire Blast, you might be disappointed, but you won't be all that upset. After all, it's more likely that Fire Blast hits than that it misses. When you lose due to a Crawdaunt Quick Claw/Guillotine-ing your entire team to death, you cry hax, and rightly so. After all, the odds of that happening are very low.
It was a real dick move on Nintendo's part to have what is essentially a never-ending, single-elimination game and then to fill it with hax moves. However, I argue that it's these two factors together (single-elimination and high-luck effects) that make DT and OHKOs so unpopular and give them a bad rap. If DT is allowed on the Shoddy Ladder and you lose a game because of it, it's not a big deal. Sure, your ranking goes down, but unless Double Team is overpowered, you'll win at least one game because your opponent's Double Team didn't pay off for every game you lose because it did.
EDIT: Special note on Garchomp here: If your biggest argument for banning Double Team is that it would make Garchomp too powerful, you could easily argue for the banning of Garchomp instead.
Double Team centralizes the metagame
Like X-Act has been saying, there are many, many ways to 'counter' Double Team. I think what a lot of people are missing is that Double Team often won't need a counter. Most of the time, you're going to hit through one level of Evasion if your moves are fairly accurate. On average, moves (especially physical ones) are a lot more powerful now than they were a few generations ago. This means that Double Team users have to be significantly luckier for their gamble to pay off.
In RBY, if you needed a Swift-Dancer to beat Double Team, that's centralization. If you now need to have a No Guard Machamp OR a Technician Pokémon with a never-miss move OR Foresight/Odor Sleuth OR Yawn OR Trump Card OR Haze OR etc., etc., that's not centralization. Where I come from, we call that de-centralization.
Now, if your argument is that you won't be able to counter all the threats once Double Team is allowed, that's basically saying that you don't want the game to become less centralized. This is a personal preference and there's nothing inherently wrong with it, but I think it's important that we call it what it is.
Double Team adds luck and removes skill from the game
I honestly believe that Pokémon has so much luck in the form of inaccurate moves, critical hits, confusion, sleep duration, and added effects that Double Team's effect on the total amount of luck in the game would be negligible. However, even the claim (made famous by Obi) that Double Team will strictly increase the amount of luck in the game is not necessarily true.
I predict that if Double Team were to be introduced, one of two things would happen.
A. People use it for a while, realize that it's hurting their rankings, and stop using it for the most part. I believe this is the most likely outcome.
B. People continue to use it, and the metagame shifts from less accurate moves toward more accurate moves to counter the change. This in turn reduces the amount of luck in the game.
Let's talk about B for a moment. If my opponent has a bunch of moves with base 100 accuracy, I can't really see myself wasting a turn using Double Team in order to give those moves a 75% accuracy. However, if I predict my opponent is going to throw Focus Blasts at me, lowering their accuracy to 52.5% with one Double Team is a bit more tempting. If Double Team really did become popular, it could conceivably discourage the use of inaccurate moves. Whether this would completely counter the amount of luck introduced by Double Team itself is not readily apparent. I think we'd need a testing period to see what the effect on the metagame would be.
Double Team doesn't add anything to the game
My previous point more-or-less covers this claim as well. Double Team is a viable strategy for avoiding attacks that already have a low accuracy rating. It's still not surefire, and you won't catch me using it most of the time, but allowing it does open more options and may decentralize the game. Again, if you like the current amount of centralization in the game and you don't want to have to counter another strategy, that's a perfectly legitimate opinion. It's a decision that can be made by the community and/or the policy makers after a test period to see what Double Team's actual effect on the metagame is.
the point being, we would have to run totally different move sets to what we run currently draco meteor? too inacurate hypnosis? no way fire blast? megahorn? stone edge? focus blast? all these moves will be useless as they wont hit enough meaning running weaker variants and imagine if a subber got DT going and you miss that ONCE it gets another and another then starts setting up and sweeps you, sounds like a possibilty to me
I'm interested in seeing the math that proves this.
In Theoryland, where moves have 0% chance to CH or have a side-effect, this is true. However, using Flamethrower against a Cosmic Power Pokemon has a 6.25% chance to get a CH and a 10% chance to burn with each use. Against a Pokemon with Double Team, those chances drop. At six Double Teams, you have a 2.08% chance to CH and a 3.33% chance to burn. A critical hit on the Cosmic Power Pokemon does just as much damage as the critical hit on the Double Team Pokemon.
And this is why I'm not arguing against Double Team on the question of power. I wouldn't be surprised if it's not too difficult to counter (and that question would require testing). My argument is in the abstract: "Why should we increase the level of luck?".
The problem is that Pokemon isn't played on the average. Big tournaments are almost all single-elimination. Even double-elimination allows for a massive amount of luck. The only way to control for luck and to let the averages play out would be to have the standard tournament be a Swiss tournament or something of that nature, and too many people don't like the idea of a tournament that big for it to be standard any time soon.
Roar and Whirlwind, the only two phazing moves, do not go through evasion. Haze, Perish Song, and Yawn ignore evasion.
Imagine I am in a tournament and I am matched up against someone I consider to be a better player than myself. On the average, they will beat me. Therefore, I have to take advantage of the short-term nature of battles. The best way to do this is to inject luck into the equation. I don't have to make a team that wins on the average, I have to make a team that gives me the lowest chance to lose. If they are a better player than I am, the best way to do this is to increase the level of luck.
I'm just quoting this because it's an important question to ask. If you favor testing, what information could come from testing that would convince you that evasion should be banned? What information would come from testing that would convince you it shouldn't?
If the argument that is keeping it banned is "It increases luck by an unacceptable degree.", then the proper response to that is to either deny it increases luck or to claim that the degree of increase is an acceptable amount. You could also argue that increasing luck isn't a bad thing, but that is an incredibly difficult argument to make. The only way I could even consider following this line of reasoning would be if we were to change the foundations of tournament play, as I mentioned above.
Luck played no role in that scenario. Jolteon would OHKO Gyarados regardless of the CH.
lol what?
That's not my argument at all. I'm not saying it's too powerful; that would require some sort of play-testing to determine. I'm saying I don't like the idea of injecting that level of luck, even in theory.
Snow Cloak is a 20% evasion modifier; BrightPowder is a 10% evasion modifier. Combined, this gives a 28% chance to miss.
Quick Claw isn't banned on Shoddy, nor is it a standard ban on Smogon.
That's not how it really works. Assuming Double Team is the only accuracy / evasion modifier, your chance to hit is Accuracy * 3 / (3+n), where Accuracy is the accuracy of your move, and n is the number of Double Teams. This means the first Double Team brings the accuracy to 3/4 (75%). After six Double Teams, you have a 1/3 (33.3%) chance to hit with a 100% accurate move.
Smogon isn't a democracy, it's a meritocracy. Those who have shown themselves to be knowledgeable about Pokemon are the people who make the decisions, not little Joey who thinks "hyper beam blissey is good because it pwns water types :)".
These people don't decide the fate of everyone, they decide the fate of Smogon. Why shouldn't those people be required to be smart?