Evasion: Test or Ban?

[seds]

You guys realize that roar can miss? It happened to me against a brightpowder chomp...

I have uxie! enemy sent in garchomp. Garchomp use substitute! Uxie used yawn, but it failed!

Go leafeon! garchomp used swords dance

Garchomp used swords dance. Leafeon used roar! but it missed!

Garchomp used outrage! (80~%) Leafeon used roar! but it missed!



It ended right there. A chomp with a sub and +4 attack. Anyways, I dislike the fact that roar can miss... Lock on used to be able to miss in Ru/Sa/Emerald, but it is nice to see that they fixed it.

I don't like double team, but I don't see any problem with testing it to make some people happy... I have fought double teamers on wi-fi... it was annoying, but statistically it looks like double team isn't so good.

Taunt doesn't solve much, it just can't double team for a few turns... it still has 1 or more boosts by the time it is taunted.








EDITS: I noticed someone earlier pointed out that roar can miss... But it is something that should be brought up... :\

 

[Fenikkusu]

We're aware roar and whirlwind can miss, yes. It sucks that you hit a 7.8% bracket in a double roar miss, but it's almost as likely that garchomp would've just crit and killed leafeon anyway.

 

[phalanx]

yea but leafeon can DT as well lol, can garchomp kill leafeon with one crit? it an survuve fire punch from life orb infurnape...

that and encore can miss, i think evasion is something best avoided especially when it comes to walls

http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/minimize this draws me a scary thought, blissey an awsome wall, learns minimize, the best sub passer in the game learns minimize as does clefable and that can set up defence behind it as well.
and guess what annyoing pink egg of annoying wallage learns double team, BLISSEY, also notables are breloom *hard enough to kill wiht all its healing) deoxys (frail yes, guarenteed to get one off? yes) foretress, zong, chomp, gengar, gyara, hippo...


so this will have a huge effec on the OU tier in my view, there is too much that can have it, and forcing swift, phazers (going to be needed with the sheer number of DT learners) or the accuracy item to me centralizes

 

[Fenikkusu]

If you'd read the log, it was a double SD'd Garchomp.

 

[Bliksem]

Add minimize to Blissey's moveset.

~Seismic Toss/Ice Beam
~Softboiled
~Thunder Wave
~Minimize/Double Team

From what I see, this Pokemon would see very little use out of Double Team as it really wouldn't serve to accomplish too much. HOWEVER, in the event of a calm minder, the Blissey can use Double Team or Minimize to reduce the chance the Calm Minder has of sweeping. However, which would be less stressful? Relying on whatever percentage hit that the +6 CM'd Pokemon has of OHKOing Blissey or knowing that the only way it'd be able to OHKO you is through a 6.25% chance of a critical hit? I see it as a viable alternative.

Remember, every Pokemon that learns Double Team either has to remove another one of its offensive/defensive status moves to compensate or lose type coverage. Haven't an unhittable wall is fine and dandy until you realize that you're not actually accomplishing anything.

 

[phalanx]

true but surly with something like a blim where you have an option already

Batton pass
Substitute
hypnosis/calm mind/stockpile
shadow ball

this is the BP moveset add double team to the end of the 3rd move option and thats potentialy nasty

 

[astrohawke]

It's all very good theorymon to talk about having a pokemon baton pass DT and saying that it's ownage and overpowered without actually knowing that it is.

There's a reason baton passing is a gimmick in the standard metagame and that's because generally it doesn't work out to well for too many reasons. Yes I can use something like DT ninjask or drifblim and it can be potentially devastating if passed to the right pokemon but there are just so many downsides to using such a strategy. I would go so far as to say using such a strategy basically forces you to play 5v6. If you think giving up a moveslot for DT is bad, I'd say giving up a pokemon slot for passing DT is even worse. You're basically stuck with a dead weight pokemon that is really no threat. It's probably gonna sacrifice most of its health subbing + DTing a few times to pass it to another pokemon after which it will be useless. Even if somehow you get lucky and manage to pass 6 DTs to something, there's still no guarantee that the recipient will be able to sweep a team.

But that's all theorymon and there's no sense in arguing about that. I don't see anyone with a solid reason why not to at least test it.

 

[Dragontamer]

true but surly with something like a blim where you have an option already

Batton pass
Substitute
hypnosis/calm mind/stockpile
shadow ball

this is the BP moveset add double team to the end of the 3rd move option and thats potentialy nasty

How is that any worse than Umbreon's set? Blim has no possible way to actually prevent a phazer, is weak to bolt/beam, has lower defenses and is just as slow to boot (Taunt).

http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/minimize this draws me a scary thought, blissey an awsome wall, learns minimize, the best sub passer in the game learns minimize as does clefable and that can set up defence behind it as well.

I've stated multiple times in this thread... Cosmic Power is better than DT / Minimize on the average. Further, Blissey learns Calm Mind of all things to boost its Sp. Def to even more absurd levels, and that is far worse than what Minimize has to offer. Calm Mind Blissey can actually sweep your team if you don't have a fighting attack to fend it off... with the ability to survive Adamant CB Garchomp Outrage and OHKO back at him after a calm mind... and utterly utterly wall any attempt at attacking it from the special side... etc. etc.

And... on the other hand.. if you throw T-Wave at the incomming Infernape instead of Double-Teaming, you can cripple your opponent's Pokemon for the rest of the game... or you can switch out. Mind you: Double Team's effect is no better than T-Wave.

and guess what annyoing pink egg of annoying wallage learns double team, BLISSEY, also notables are breloom *hard enough to kill wiht all its healing) deoxys (frail yes, guarenteed to get one off? yes) foretress, zong, chomp, gengar, gyara, hippo...

Breloom? Hard to kill with healing? A 4x weak to flying, 2x weak to poison, fire, ice and psychic with Sp. Defenses frailer than Eevee and Physical Defenses no better than Azelf... hard to kill? You've got to be kidding me.

As noted before... multiple times... Cosmic Power is better on the average than Double Team. Deoxys-S doesn't do well with Cosmic Power... and most of the time Cosmic Power will in fact be superior to Double Team.

Deoxys is simply too frail to make it worth double-teaming for. Okay... so Deoxys just double teamed. It still is completely walled by Milotic. Further, you lose a necessary moveslot for that attack. What did you lose? Superpower? Ice Beam? You gotta be kidding me... no attack on the Standard Set is worth losing for Double Team.

so this will have a huge effec on the OU tier in my view, there is too much that can have it, and forcing swift, phazers (going to be needed with the sheer number of DT learners) or the accuracy item to me centralizes

Phazers are already necessary for the fear of Ninjask, CM Suicune, and just about every other baton pass team. Further, Double Team is worse on the average than one of the least used moves in the game... Stockpile / Cosmic Power.

-------

There are all of these complaints about Double Team in this thread, but I have yet to see a double team set that actually is better on the average than another set that Pokemon already has. One Double Team is arguably much worse than one T-Wave in terms of effectiveness and no one seems to complain about T-Wave hax.

 

[Lord Alchemy]

I love Double Team discussions. Why do these constantly pop up? Even if a 'Double Team' environment proved to be balanced (despite the heavy focus of tanks, double team, baton passing, hazing, and taunting), it would be boring as shit. I'm not a big fan of stall teams to begin with, and Double Team would make it even worse.

Some defense is fine, but fucking introducing luck with evasion is purely annoying. Any element of luck that can be removed by the community must be done to push along any competitive environment. Competitive players tend to want to test their skill, not random number generators.

Then again, I might be a jaded fighting game fan that hates random shit killing me. The excitement of a good close match between equally skilled players is unmatched by "HAHA I TRIPPED AND EXPLODED HAHA", or even "HAHA I CRIT YOU AFTER YOU MISSED ME BECAUSE I DT'D ONCE LOLOL".

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Pokemon is not a fighting game. Removing luck does not further the competitive environment as the game is inherently probabilistic unlike most fighting games.

 

[Dragontamer]

I love Double Team discussions. Why do these constantly pop up? Even if a 'Double Team' environment proved to be balanced (despite the heavy focus of tanks, double team, baton passing, hazing, and taunting), it would be boring as shit. I'm not a big fan of stall teams to begin with, and Double Team would make it even worse.

Some defense is fine, but fucking introducing luck with evasion is purely annoying. Any element of luck that can be removed by the community must be done to push along any competitive environment. Competitive players tend to want to test their skill, not random number generators.

Then again, I might be a jaded fighting game fan that hates random shit killing me. The excitement of a good close match between equally skilled players is unmatched by "HAHA I TRIPPED AND EXPLODED HAHA", or even "HAHA I CRIT YOU AFTER YOU MISSED ME BECAUSE I DT'D ONCE LOLOL".

There are competitive games with more luck than Pokemon (Poker), and there are competitive games with less luck than Pokemon (ermm... a lot >_>).

For all we know... Gravity will become common and absurdly powerful attacks (Blizzard, Thunder, etc. etc.) can become mainstream with everyone's reliance on Gravity. Or maybe the metagame will become more offensive so that the opponent never gets off a single Double Team. We can theorymon situations all day about how the metagame might or might not turn out... but until we test it, then we won't know for sure.

As for the testing, we need to test it in a manner that keeps the current ladder in tact. If there was a way to have a ladder on Shoddybattle with similar statistics, then that would be better IMO than throwing it into the real ladder. We really need statistics and battle experience before this discussion can continue.

 

[CardsOfTheHeart]

Let me just wrap up my argument with this:

-A competition is a test of skill.

-Skill is within the competitor's control.

-Luck is outside of the competitor's control.

If you agree with the above statements, then does it not follow that luck should be minimized in a competition?

Smogon is a competitive Pokemon battling community. If we truly are competing, then luck should be controlled as much as possible. If we are not controlling luck, then are we really competing? Or are we all just simply playing a game of chance?

 

[Fenikkusu]

We can further minimize luck by removing all attacks with secondary effects. Following that we can remove all attacks with less than 100% accuracy.
[/sarcasm]


Anyway, while it is certainly annoying, "annoying" has proven to be not a valid reason to ban something (see wobba).

 

[kamikaen]

@Fenikkusu: I don't know if you were meaning that as a valid argument, or not, but yours is the most recent of a long line of such posts. Moves with extra effects are many, and accomplish more than just injecting luck into the equation.

@DragonTamer: I don't know if you can just "create a ladder". If testing Deoxys-S was optional, it might still be considered uber in more people's eyes, including my own. So I don't know if an effective test would be done.

Either way, I have my doubts about how DT will "help" the metagame. A shift towards more accurate moves? That will just leave things at the status quo (if that) as far as averages go, but leave that element of randomness there, as well. Gravity isn't stackable (and it's only on very few Pokemon, most of which have many things to do), and if you use it, then switch out, everything is negated if your opponent keeps DTing for those two turns. Well, negated until turn 5, where it "gains" two DTs. An offensive metagame sounds fun, but wouldn't you need more powerful (and therefore, generally more innacurate) moves to accomplish that? Of course, you could argue that "killing them before they can use their evasion modifiers would work", but that's only workable on paper... you'd never be able to keep that up against an equally skilled opponent.

The main point is, many Pokemon players play for the strategic element (coupled with the depth of the customizations available) over the luck element. Of course, odds can be used strategically, but I'd prefer to remove the element of randomness to a comfortable degree. I think that DT has the possibility of working it's way into the metagame while remaining "comfortably" on the low side of a luck filled metagame, but I still think that it would have a negative effect either way, so why bother? Also, if this just "could" help, but yet will take months of ladder testing (imo; this isn't just a one tourney thing), then why bother? I'd personally have two extra months of the status quo than the rest of my Pokemoning life with something just slightly better, not to mention, something likely worse.

 

[Fenikkusu]

@Fenikkusu: I don't know if you were meaning that as a valid argument, or not, but yours is the most recent of a long line of such posts. Moves with extra effects are many, and accomplish more than just injecting luck into the equation.

It was reductio ad absurdem, because if we're minimizing "luck" for the sake of minimizing luck, then anything with an RNG involved that can be removed, ought to be removed.

 

[Dragontamer]

@DragonTamer: I don't know if you can just "create a ladder". If testing Deoxys-S was optional, it might still be considered uber in more people's eyes, including my own. So I don't know if an effective test would be done.

There was a Deoxys-S test that was done. It was the Deoxys-S tournament. For me, it was a time for me to shut up. I did not participate in the tournament and thus I banned myself from the discussion on Deoxys-S's tier.

Despite the large number of claims of unfairness and all that, there was a Deoxys-S test, and the discussion that I cared about was done by those who participated in the tournament. Had the same gone with Wobbuffet, I would not have participated in the Wobbuffet discussion either. My main beef with Wobbuffet was that its "testing" period disturbed the ladder. It was an untested rule change, no one knew whether Wobbuffet was Uber or not. No statistics were gathered beforehand.

While I'm much in the opinion that DT is not broken and will open up the game to new strategies and so forth... I cannot stand for an untested mechanic to be thrown into the ladder. At very least, the testing should be a public event such that a single person has no excuse for missing the testing period.

Either way, I have my doubts about how DT will "help" the metagame. A shift towards more accurate moves? That will just leave things at the status quo (if that) as far as averages go, but leave that element of randomness there, as well. Gravity isn't stackable (and it's only on very few Pokemon, most of which have many things to do), and if you use it, then switch out, everything is negated if your opponent keeps DTing for those two turns. Well, negated until turn 5, where it "gains" two DTs. An offensive metagame sounds fun, but wouldn't you need more powerful (and therefore, generally more innacurate) moves to accomplish that? Of course, you could argue that "killing them before they can use their evasion modifiers would work", but that's only workable on paper... you'd never be able to keep that up against an equally skilled opponent.

My point was not that the metagame will become Gravity based or more offensive, but that we cannot predict the metagame shift until we actually perform a proper test. Be it a tournament, an alternative ladder, or even just throwing it into the ladder (bad bad bad)... no one here can accurately predict the effects of Double Team onto the metagame

The main point is, many Pokemon players play for the strategic element (coupled with the depth of the customizations available) over the luck element. Of course, odds can be used strategically, but I'd prefer to remove the element of randomness to a comfortable degree. I think that DT has the possibility of working it's way into the metagame while remaining "comfortably" on the low side of a luck filled metagame, but I still think that it would have a negative effect either way, so why bother? Also, if this just "could" help, but yet will take months of ladder testing (imo; this isn't just a one tourney thing), then why bother? I'd personally have two extra months of the status quo than the rest of my Pokemoning life with something just slightly better, not to mention, something likely worse.

I'm of the opinion that Pokemon's Metagame will improve as a result of the change. I understand and respect your opinion which is why I'll continue to stress the importance of creating a proper testing environment for this mechanic.

 

[garo]

well.. for some guys who claimed for a poll i did one a few weeks ago,titled "the most annoying hax effect" and these are the results:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39300


so, as we can see a third part of the voters consider evasion as the most annoying hax effect, also almost a fourth part voted for critical hits, so you make the conclusion guys, for me an advantage of 20 votes above the second place is significant, but not as much as a considerable advantage for banning the effect. we must consider that criticals got many votes, but we still play with them and there is no one attempting to ban them.

 

[Lord Alchemy]

Let me just wrap up my argument with this:

-A competition is a test of skill.

-Skill is within the competitor's control.

-Luck is outside of the competitor's control.

If you agree with the above statements, then does it not follow that luck should be minimized in a competition?

Smogon is a competitive Pokemon battling community. If we truly are competing, then luck should be controlled as much as possible. If we are not controlling luck, then are we really competing? Or are we all just simply playing a game of chance?

Bingo. Said everything on my mind. This works with anything that can be taken to a competitive level too. And don't give me any Poker shit, the entire mechanics of the game involve a randomly shuffled deck, that isn't the case with Pokemon.

We can further minimize luck by removing all attacks with secondary effects. Following that we can remove all attacks with less than 100% accuracy.
[/sarcasm]

Which is just dumb when you consider how many moves have secondary effects. I see the sarcasm tag, but it is still worth mentioning. We want to work with what we can control effectively, not gut the entire game. It is called balance. The way the game was designed forces us to deal with some luck or play with a horribly gimped version of the game. Banning evasion stuff doesn't gimp the game as badly as banning Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, etc. would.

Could someone pull some crazy shit with a Shoddy server or something? Sure, but then it isn't anywhere near a close representation of the actual games, and despite all the ladder shit and HP stuff, the games and their PC simulations are connected at the hip.

 

[Fenikkusu]

The whole point of reductio ad absurdum is to bring a proposition to an absurd outcome, so yes. Of course it is absurd. XD

 

[Dragontamer]

-Luck is outside of the competitor's control.

Double Team on the other hand... is completely inside the control of at least one player. You have to give up a moveslot to put DT on a Pokemon. You have to give up a turn to DT instead of attack. Executing these things in balance with the rest of your team while consistently winning will require skill.

Further, attacks that ignore evasion modifiers are within the grasp of the other player. So both players have complete control of the Double Team situation.

Bingo. Said everything on my mind. This works with anything that can be taken to a competitive level too. And don't give me any Poker shit, the entire mechanics of the game involve a randomly shuffled deck, that isn't the case with Pokemon.

As if every attack doesn't deal a random amount of damage from 85% to 100%. Oh wait...

As if every attack doesn't critical hit. Oh wait...

As if hax effects like burn, defense drop, and all stats up don't happen. Oh wait...

As if "fully paralyzed" or "attracted" didn't always happen. Oh wait...

Every single calculation in Pokemon is paired up with the random number generator. Every single one. Period. Be it the hit percentage, the damage delt, the chance for crit... everything. The whole game is completely tied to the random number generator.

 

[Murkrow]

so, as we can see a third part of the voters consider evasion as the most annoying hax effect

Also, I just wanted to note that "evasion" is a rather broad category in a sense; Double Team and Sand Veil and Brightpowder, while in principle effect the same kind of "luck hax" that everybody hates, are not the same thing. Double Team is a move--it takes up a move slot and a turn to use it. Sand Veil+Brightpowder Chomp, given an earlier Ttar or Hippo switch-in, does not require a turn nor a move slot (though it requires an item slot). So while someone may object to SV+BP Chomp, as many in the poll seem to do, that might not necessarily reflect on Double Team in general.

BTW, I can't say I'm in favor of "evasion," but I'm interested in how it fares if tested and how badly abused it can be. DT Pressure users (Suicune, Spiritomb, and possibly Dusknoir) seem like they would be ridiculously annoying, though whether they would be effective, I don't know.

 

[garo]

Double Team on the other hand... is completely inside the control of at least one player. You have to give up a moveslot to put DT on a Pokemon. You have to give up a turn to DT instead of attack. Executing these things in balance with the rest of your team while consistently winning will require skill.

Further, attacks that ignore evasion modifiers are within the grasp of the other player. So both players have complete control of the Double Team situation.

You can choose when you use DT, but you cant control when you are gonna be hit after DT, you can control when you hit with prefect accuracy moves and thats all.

As if every attack doesn't deal a random amount of damage from 85% to 100%. Oh wait...

you pointed out an incredible important factor in pokemon battles: EVERY SINGLE ATTACK WE MAKE IS AFFECTED BY THE RNG. not matter if it is a perfect accuracy move, it is still random the amount of damage you do. so if as some members posted above, we need to remove secondary effect moves in order to remove luck from the game, thats false, instead we need to remove the moves from the game, so we have no game to play with. for example you can do 50% damage and then 49% damage, the opponent poke dont die and you lose the match, just the luck inherent to the game. every second im getting convinced that evasion would be unbanned or tested at least.


As if every attack doesn't critical hit. Oh wait...

As if hax effects like burn, defense drop, and all stats up don't happen. Oh wait...

As if "fully paralyzed" or "attracted" didn't always happen. Oh wait...

Every single calculation in Pokemon is paired up with the random number generator. Every single one. Period. Be it the hit percentage, the damage delt, the chance for crit... everything. The whole game is completely tied to the random number generator.

 

[Fenikkusu]

I would just like to point out that I didn't say removing luck. I've never used a premise that luck can be removed altogether. I have always said minimizing luck, and then generally only in conjunction with taking the premises of others to their extreme conclusions.

We can further minimize luck by removing all attacks with secondary effects. Following that we can remove all attacks with less than 100% accuracy.
[/sarcasm]

It was reductio ad absurdem, because if we're minimizing "luck" for the sake of minimizing luck, then anything with an RNG involved that can be removed, ought to be removed.

I will admit that I overlooked paralysis, confusion, and attraction in my initial statement.

 

[astrohawke]

Bingo. Said everything on my mind. This works with anything that can be taken to a competitive level too. And don't give me any Poker shit, the entire mechanics of the game involve a randomly shuffled deck, that isn't the case with Pokemon.

wtf...the entire mechanics of poker isn't just a randomly shuffled deck. The reason we are comparing pokemon to poker is because poker is a mixture of luck (the cards you get) and probability (how you choose to play the cards) very similar to pokemon. The poker player will use probability in his favor to decide when and how much to bet and when to fold depending on the cards in his hand and on the table.

Sometimes, luck will overcome skill. For instance, the poker player could have calculated probabilities perfectly and decided he had a 90% chance of winning only to be beaten by that 10% on the river. But on the average it's the player with the skills and not the luck who will win more money. It's the same with pokemon. I could have played a great game only to be haxed by full para or crit etc...towards the end and lose. But on the average there's more chance I will win because I have skills rather than lose because of that hax.

 

[garo]

Also, I just wanted to note that "evasion" is a rather broad category in a sense; Double Team and Sand Veil and Brightpowder, while in principle effect the same kind of "luck hax" that everybody hates, are not the same thing. Double Team is a move--it takes up a move slot and a turn to use it. Sand Veil+Brightpowder Chomp, given an earlier Ttar or Hippo switch-in, does not require a turn nor a move slot (though it requires an item slot). So while someone may object to SV+BP Chomp, as many in the poll seem to do, that might not necessarily reflect on Double Team in general.

BTW, I can't say I'm in favor of "evasion," but I'm interested in how it fares if tested and how badly abused it can be. DT Pressure users (Suicune, Spiritomb, and possibly Dusknoir) seem like they would be ridiculously annoying, though whether they would be effective, I don't know.

absolutely evasion have many faces, but i think that people posted about sand veil chomp because is the type of evasion most used nowdays, i think surely that these people would find annoying as well DT if it is unbanned, a DT poke have no instant evasion boost like chomp in SS, but i think these people votes and opinions would have some relevance in DT discussion anyway.