Edited for precision then. XD
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Evasion: Test or Ban?
- Thread starter kamikaen
- Start date
I understand what you're saying, and to be honest... I don't see Double Team being used so much that it would get annoying BECAUSE of the reasons you've said! Think about it... winning or not, do you want to drag a battle out forever?
I would also point to the arguments stating the risks of trying to set up Double Team. Experienced players, largely, will avoid trying to set it up.
I don't use Double Team, I rarely even consider it, so I'm not supporting it because I want to use it. I'm supporting it because I'm against this idea that we should change the game as it is presented to suit our needs.
I agree. I really don't understand how you can say something is less 'fun' when that's not really something that can be measured objectively. The stigma against Double Team is going to work against its success, considering that many people won't adopt it because they've been told it's overpowered.
You're not being competitive if you're removing elements of the game just because you don't want to deal with them. Double Team has not proven itself to be either unfair or unbalanced, and it shouldn't be banned because of that.
Perhaps expansion of that argument against Double Team is that the cost in terms of victories of using it is lower for people who rely less on skill. Therefore, it provides an extra avenue of victory for someone who has exhausted the avenues they can access by skill alone.
"The "OU metagame" is the result of a search for a balanced game, where player skill, teambuilding skill, and a certain amount of luck combine to execute victory."
Is devoting a moveslot to Double Team indicative of teambuilding skill? Is using Double Team effectively in battle indicative of player skill? Does Double Team allow players to demonstrate their skill?
Also, how much luck is a "certain amount?" Is there an acceptable level of luck besides the minimum? Does the presence of Double Team exceed that level?
Does a best answer to all of these questions even exist???
Is devoting a moveslot to Double Team indicative of teambuilding skill? Is using Double Team effectively in battle indicative of player skill? Does Double Team allow players to demonstrate their skill?
Also, how much luck is a "certain amount?" Is there an acceptable level of luck besides the minimum? Does the presence of Double Team exceed that level?
Does a best answer to all of these questions even exist???
@ Cooltrainer Jim: Actually, there are many people who would choose a more "boring" playstyle in order to win. Even if it wasn't used much, why let it be used anyway, if it will only have a negative effect? Limiting the game to "suit our needs" is what a lot of competitive games require. As long as most moves stay unbanned, we are staying true to the game's core.
And since removing all moves (since all damaging moves are affected by luck) is absurd, then none should be removed, right? Silly Latin. I suppose that the counter to your argument should be to say that there can be a middle ground between having luck play too great a role, and having all damaging moves thrown out the window. I think luck should be minimized to a reasonable extent. DT is basically one move, compared to the move that seem to be next in the line of fire, like Fire Blast, that has siblings that do different things than it does (unlike Minimize versus DT, which both do exactly the same thing despite the PP difference that also occurs between moves like Fire Blast and Thunder). Removing Fire Blast and friends would be too close to "absurd" for my liking, but any further argument on drawing the line between too much luck, and absurdity really needs it's own topic.
Some people are saying that DT could improve the metagame, and that it would require a test. Putting Arceus into the OU ladder might improve the metagame, too. With the infinite amount of metagames and conditions that such a customizable game offers, it's important to consider what is worth the hassle of testing. So we need a good amount of intelligently prediction (not throwing out idealistic outcomes), or "theorymon" before we test. Would a tournament be enough to test? No. Watching a "positive shift" unfold would take more than a 64 man tournament, and that's where it would get hairy; it would have to be stuck into the Shoddy ladder (as an "optional" ladder wouldn't really work...) for a good amount of time. If you can decide from a tournament whether this is worth doing or not, I would support a tournament, but I don't think that enough information could be taken from the results of a tournament to decide something that. "Multiple tournaments" would just succumb to the same downfalls as an optional ladder; not enough minds being forced to work on the problem, the same people working on the problem all the time...
And since removing all moves (since all damaging moves are affected by luck) is absurd, then none should be removed, right? Silly Latin. I suppose that the counter to your argument should be to say that there can be a middle ground between having luck play too great a role, and having all damaging moves thrown out the window. I think luck should be minimized to a reasonable extent. DT is basically one move, compared to the move that seem to be next in the line of fire, like Fire Blast, that has siblings that do different things than it does (unlike Minimize versus DT, which both do exactly the same thing despite the PP difference that also occurs between moves like Fire Blast and Thunder). Removing Fire Blast and friends would be too close to "absurd" for my liking, but any further argument on drawing the line between too much luck, and absurdity really needs it's own topic.
Some people are saying that DT could improve the metagame, and that it would require a test. Putting Arceus into the OU ladder might improve the metagame, too. With the infinite amount of metagames and conditions that such a customizable game offers, it's important to consider what is worth the hassle of testing. So we need a good amount of intelligently prediction (not throwing out idealistic outcomes), or "theorymon" before we test. Would a tournament be enough to test? No. Watching a "positive shift" unfold would take more than a 64 man tournament, and that's where it would get hairy; it would have to be stuck into the Shoddy ladder (as an "optional" ladder wouldn't really work...) for a good amount of time. If you can decide from a tournament whether this is worth doing or not, I would support a tournament, but I don't think that enough information could be taken from the results of a tournament to decide something that. "Multiple tournaments" would just succumb to the same downfalls as an optional ladder; not enough minds being forced to work on the problem, the same people working on the problem all the time...
You're right. After DT we can remove Twave as well. After all, it's just one move as well and I hate how non-stop parahax costs me the game when I am clearly more skillful than my opponent.
It's all good as long as we only remove one move at a time to minimize luck just so long as it doesn't affect the game too drastically all at once. Give people time to adjust between bans am I right? [/sarcasm]
Thunder Wave also lowers speed, and that's the larger reason why it's used (for me, at least), so it has a "skill" element as a part of it, as well, but I'm sure you knew that when you posted he above.
@Garo: Yeah, but if I have a 75% "chance" of winning a single battle, won't it be likely for me to win about 75% of my battles in total?
Double Team doesn't *give* you a 75% chance of winning your battles, though.
Uxie is a Pokemon that is often times treated like an inferior Crescelia or an inferior Mesprit, or so says its bio. But it gets one move that sets it apart from those Pokemon. Yawn. Yawn also happens to be a move that never misses.
So let's assume that Double Team *does* manage to become a popular strategy. While you may see a lot of Crescelia with Double Team, Psychic, Calm Mind and Ice Beam, also note that Uxie can come in at almost any time and Yawn it. Uxie's high defenses would allow it to come in against Pokemon that have Double Team'd and put an almost instant halt to it. The opponent would either have to switch, wasting all those turns, or leave it up to chance, both when the slept Pokemon awakens and if it gets hit. I believe the more skilled battler would recall the Pokemon.
There shouldn't be a blanket ban on something that isn't broken. There can be optional bans for evasion; I have nothing against that. But people should be allowed to play the way they like, and the general rules should be as simplistic as possible.
I would really like someone to give me a reason why Double Team shouldn't be allowed from an objective point of view, considering the whole skill vs. luck thing isn't. You can't measure fun, because what's fun for you may not be fun for everyone. Thus, it should be taken almost completely out of the equation. Whenever I reference fun, I refer to the ability for the largest number of people to compete using the largest number of viable strategies, and as far as I see, Double Team's introduction would not remove any strategies. It would only shift the focus away from some and more towards others.
Uxie is a Pokemon that is often times treated like an inferior Crescelia or an inferior Mesprit, or so says its bio. But it gets one move that sets it apart from those Pokemon. Yawn. Yawn also happens to be a move that never misses.
So let's assume that Double Team *does* manage to become a popular strategy. While you may see a lot of Crescelia with Double Team, Psychic, Calm Mind and Ice Beam, also note that Uxie can come in at almost any time and Yawn it. Uxie's high defenses would allow it to come in against Pokemon that have Double Team'd and put an almost instant halt to it. The opponent would either have to switch, wasting all those turns, or leave it up to chance, both when the slept Pokemon awakens and if it gets hit. I believe the more skilled battler would recall the Pokemon.
There shouldn't be a blanket ban on something that isn't broken. There can be optional bans for evasion; I have nothing against that. But people should be allowed to play the way they like, and the general rules should be as simplistic as possible.
I would really like someone to give me a reason why Double Team shouldn't be allowed from an objective point of view, considering the whole skill vs. luck thing isn't. You can't measure fun, because what's fun for you may not be fun for everyone. Thus, it should be taken almost completely out of the equation. Whenever I reference fun, I refer to the ability for the largest number of people to compete using the largest number of viable strategies, and as far as I see, Double Team's introduction would not remove any strategies. It would only shift the focus away from some and more towards others.
There's this big speech about how we're just trying to minimize luck while not totally butchering the game but in the end there's just excuse after excuse about why other moves that increase luck are different from DT and therefore shouldn't be removed. So eventually DT and minimize are the only moves that end up being banned in the name of "minimizing luck" anyway lol. All I'm really seeing here is bias towards DT as a reason not to test it.
If lower speed is what you're really after then why not try scary face, or trick iron ball onto something or alternatively increase your own speed. It certainly removes the hax aspect of paralysis. But I know what you're gonna say. These are different to paralyzing a pokemon because it's not permanent or whatever other reason. No shit, moves will have their differences and each its own niche. Permanently lowering speed comes with the side effect of having hax but there are haxless ways to lower speed as well. In the end a little hax is acceptable to you if the alternative is losing a move you like to use as opposed to one like DT which you don't. Again, it's just bias.
Alternatively, I could ask you why there isn't a raging debate about banning focus energy? Clearly all it does is raise critical rates which is just luck. But of course, the reason will be it's different to DT because it can't be stacked. Just like every other move is different in some way which exempts it from being banned in the name of "minimizing luck".
If lower speed is what you're really after then why not try scary face, or trick iron ball onto something or alternatively increase your own speed. It certainly removes the hax aspect of paralysis. But I know what you're gonna say. These are different to paralyzing a pokemon because it's not permanent or whatever other reason. No shit, moves will have their differences and each its own niche. Permanently lowering speed comes with the side effect of having hax but there are haxless ways to lower speed as well. In the end a little hax is acceptable to you if the alternative is losing a move you like to use as opposed to one like DT which you don't. Again, it's just bias.
Alternatively, I could ask you why there isn't a raging debate about banning focus energy? Clearly all it does is raise critical rates which is just luck. But of course, the reason will be it's different to DT because it can't be stacked. Just like every other move is different in some way which exempts it from being banned in the name of "minimizing luck".
We'd have 4 damaging moves. :D Dragon Rage, Endeavor, Night Shade and Seismic Toss. Clearly luck minimizing should be the goal.
Seriously though. Taking my own extreme example to the next extreme only proves how fallacious minimizing luck for the sake of less luck in the game is. You're basically picking and choosing what kind of hax you want and providing no clear answer on why the others shouldn't be allowed other than "it's not fun". \Confusion is allowed. Paralysis is allowed. Attraction (lol?) is allowed. Two of them are a fair amount of hax already. We had that one gimmicky warstory that showed a froslass beating 3 ubers. Clearly thunderwave should be banned for its haxing potential.
After reading eight and a half pages of discussion I find myself in a familiar spot in the neutral zone.
Its like watching a group of hardcore Christians argue with a group of Atheists, both fling hadoukens made of logic and faith that crash in the middle with absolutely no impact because the fireballs crash in the middle and nullify one another.
Those of us with some time under our belts playing this game have ALL been on the bad end of some DT abuse, that alone is a given. But when a list of moves that compares in size to names of Pokemon on the freaking threat list don't you think its time for something different?
Personally I think unbanning DT for a bit just to see what happens isn't a bad idea at all. Something different that is a viable option appearing in the metagame that wasn't there before would logically shift the metagame, the obvious examples of such being Deoxys and Wobbles.
I find it hilarious that people can say "Its fucking stupid to nitpick at such a small part of the game" and "Double team promotes luck too much to unban" in the same fucking post. It takes 3 or 4 DT's to get a consistent miss rate up, and if you cant swap something in to stop the statboosting by the time your opponent gets to 2 you should rethink your team.
At least thats what should be said if we even ever get to give DT a chance.
I find it equally hilarious that some of the people criping about DT are probably just the same ones tired of seeing the exact same 6 standard pokemon on the opposite side of the table. Making moves and pokemon that are unused, used more often to stop a threat that has been banned since banned happened sounds a little something like DEcentralizing the game.
Yes there will be the people who slap DT on any and every thing that learns it. If you need that kind of a luck boost to the face to eke out a win against the better half of the community, you're probably netting your wins out of luck ANYWAY. Whatever. Have fun spending just as much time BEING annoyed by your safety net trying to MAKE other players annoyed; whether it be you using the DT, or you facing someone with it.
Yes there will be the smarter (the term smarter is used loosely) people who place DT in a moveslot on a waller to become that much harder to take down. Find me a wall with that much leeway in its list of moves to become absolutely broken with evasion boost, and CANT be forced to switch or hazed and I'll tell you you are most definitely playing something that is not pokemon.
I don't mean to sound biased, (I realize that I do) as I could give two shits whether the move stays banned or gets tested. I'll be able to play this game in stride, because I realize that SHIT HAPPENS. I could lose to any person that posts here or picks up shoddy because moves can miss and crits happen. I can also take that loss without whining about it because the game is basically a stretch on rock-paper-scissors attached to a RNG for kicks. And maybe I wanna have a reason to use crap like Gravity, Trump Card and Magnet Bomb. We got so many new moves and we're sticking to the same old crap we've been using since 1998.
Banning something because you don't want to deal with it is a cheap fucking cop-out, plain and simple.
Now on a lighter side-note:
First of all, lowering accuracy is not the equivalent to raising evasion. Its a lot less difficult to make a switch than to force one. Hit me with sand attack all you like, I will either put up with it and smack you, or send something thats gonna scare your little annoyer off. Double Team/Minimize is not that easy to deal with, if it was, this debate wouldn't even exist, and you wouldn't be sucking your foot.
Second of all, trying to support DT and using a novelty ninjask set as a point? You were better off to your cause by keeping your mouth shut. Or maybe you did some good by showing off just how much you can cripple something that would've been effective by wasting a moveslot on a hax move.
The rest of that garbled, poorly punctuated crap speaks for itself. Hope your throat's okay, feet don't go there.
Its like watching a group of hardcore Christians argue with a group of Atheists, both fling hadoukens made of logic and faith that crash in the middle with absolutely no impact because the fireballs crash in the middle and nullify one another.
Those of us with some time under our belts playing this game have ALL been on the bad end of some DT abuse, that alone is a given. But when a list of moves that compares in size to names of Pokemon on the freaking threat list don't you think its time for something different?
Personally I think unbanning DT for a bit just to see what happens isn't a bad idea at all. Something different that is a viable option appearing in the metagame that wasn't there before would logically shift the metagame, the obvious examples of such being Deoxys and Wobbles.
I find it hilarious that people can say "Its fucking stupid to nitpick at such a small part of the game" and "Double team promotes luck too much to unban" in the same fucking post. It takes 3 or 4 DT's to get a consistent miss rate up, and if you cant swap something in to stop the statboosting by the time your opponent gets to 2 you should rethink your team.
At least thats what should be said if we even ever get to give DT a chance.
I find it equally hilarious that some of the people criping about DT are probably just the same ones tired of seeing the exact same 6 standard pokemon on the opposite side of the table. Making moves and pokemon that are unused, used more often to stop a threat that has been banned since banned happened sounds a little something like DEcentralizing the game.
Yes there will be the people who slap DT on any and every thing that learns it. If you need that kind of a luck boost to the face to eke out a win against the better half of the community, you're probably netting your wins out of luck ANYWAY. Whatever. Have fun spending just as much time BEING annoyed by your safety net trying to MAKE other players annoyed; whether it be you using the DT, or you facing someone with it.
Yes there will be the smarter (the term smarter is used loosely) people who place DT in a moveslot on a waller to become that much harder to take down. Find me a wall with that much leeway in its list of moves to become absolutely broken with evasion boost, and CANT be forced to switch or hazed and I'll tell you you are most definitely playing something that is not pokemon.
I don't mean to sound biased, (I realize that I do) as I could give two shits whether the move stays banned or gets tested. I'll be able to play this game in stride, because I realize that SHIT HAPPENS. I could lose to any person that posts here or picks up shoddy because moves can miss and crits happen. I can also take that loss without whining about it because the game is basically a stretch on rock-paper-scissors attached to a RNG for kicks. And maybe I wanna have a reason to use crap like Gravity, Trump Card and Magnet Bomb. We got so many new moves and we're sticking to the same old crap we've been using since 1998.
Banning something because you don't want to deal with it is a cheap fucking cop-out, plain and simple.
Now on a lighter side-note:
Worst argument I have seen in this thread said:
First of all, lowering accuracy is not the equivalent to raising evasion. Its a lot less difficult to make a switch than to force one. Hit me with sand attack all you like, I will either put up with it and smack you, or send something thats gonna scare your little annoyer off. Double Team/Minimize is not that easy to deal with, if it was, this debate wouldn't even exist, and you wouldn't be sucking your foot.
Second of all, trying to support DT and using a novelty ninjask set as a point? You were better off to your cause by keeping your mouth shut. Or maybe you did some good by showing off just how much you can cripple something that would've been effective by wasting a moveslot on a hax move.
The rest of that garbled, poorly punctuated crap speaks for itself. Hope your throat's okay, feet don't go there.
Odinwolf said:
As insulting as it might sound: I'm willing to go out on a limb here and say that the "general consensus" is ignorant. Without a playtest, it is impossible to determine that kind of information. And as far as I know, there was never a test for DT Ban in the D/P era. If I'm wrong, I'll retract this statement. But as far as I know... the "general public's" ignorance on this issue speaks for itself.
Erm... or you can just wall them. Double Team implies that they don't have a Choice Item, so the most powerful Item you can use is a Life Orb. Second, your pokemon either has 2 attacks or 3 attacks. In the case of 3 attacks, it is most likely walled: Even Life Orb Lucario cannot 2-hit KO Blissey with Aura Sphere.
In the case of 2 attacks, there is a Pokemon that resists every single double-attack combo in the game with exception of Fight/Dragon (which is walled by Bronzong b/c non-STAB Brick Break is weak), and Fight / Ghost (Which Blissey most likely walls). So even if you stat-up after the Dragon Dance, there is a pokemon that will be able to wall your offense. Ground / Dragon is walled by Bronzong and Skarm, Fire / Dragon by Heatran... etc. etc.
Period. Once you drop yourself to 3 attacks only, the game changes. You cannot run a heavy offense, Double Team forces the DT user on the defensive... while giving your opponent's offensive a 75% chance of working every single turn.
Ultimately I ask: why is phazing not the answer, when most double teamers can and probably will be walled? On the other side of the coin: if you Double Team a billion times with a defensive unit... what do you gain?
+6 Cresselia Psychic with 252 Sp. Atk is walled by Blissey. Despite the fact it took you 12 turns to set up. (it 3-hit KOs Blissey at best)
+6 Cresselia Psychic with 0 EVs 4-hit KOs Blissey after you factor in Leftovers. Oh whats this? Blissey gets Calm Mind? Well... good luck getting through that wall.
+6 Cresselia Psychic does laughable amounts of Damage to Bronzong, and Ice Beam doesn't scratch him either.
You cannot possibly win with a strategy like that. The whole idea of Cresselia without recovery and two attacks that cannot even OHKO a 0/0 Weavile with +6 boosts, a Life Orb, 252 Sp. Atk EVs and a Modest Personality is completely and utterly ridiculous.
Lets say you do manage to Double Team up a few times. I switch in Weavile: You're looking at a 6 to 10 hit KO on Weavile, depending on your Attack EVs.
Weavile only has to hit you 3 or 4 times for you to die, assuming you have max out defense (aka: the 10 hit KO). 2/3 times if you throw in a Choice Band. If you went for the 6-hit KO (ala 252 Sp. Attack), Weavile only has to smack you 3 times... or 2 times with a Choice Band.
For some damage calcs: Weavile is 3-hit KOed by +6 Defensive Cresselia, and 2-hit KOed by +6 Offensive Cresselia.
So unless you managed to get 6 Double Teams up (which sets up the 3 to 1 miss / hit ratio), Weavile will win. EVEN if you get 6 Double Teams up, Cresselia will only win about 50% of the time.
Okay, lets say you manage to max out DT and then Calm Mind up 6 times. You still are walled by Bronzong and Blissey, and Weavile isn't OHKOed (meaning CB Weavile still has a non-zero chance of 2-hit KOing your Cresselia, despite you setting up for 12 turns in a row). Actually, the chance of CB Weavile defeating your Cresselia after getting fully set up with +6 DTs and +6 Calm Minds is approximately 11%. Well, it is higher than that because Night Slash Critical will OHKO offensive Cresselia, and a crit on either hit will KO defensive Cresselia.
Seriously, DT / Calm Mind / Ice Beam / Psychic Cresselia is a very bad set. You can't even OHKO Steel Wormadam...
So... because T-Wave is a better attack... it requires more skill to use??? If anything, that supports the DT argument, because it would take more skill to use DT correctly than T-Wave. T-Wave, you get lower speed and the hax for free. DT, you get the hax, but no speed loss... which is useful in far less circumstances than T-Wave. Meaning it would require more team building and more cohesion to pull off a successful DT than to pull off a successful T-Wave.
Yup. Oh wait... 75% "chance" of winning a single battle correlates to the 75% chance that double-team does nothing. If you're using double team, that is actually the 25% piece of the pie for you. Meaning you've lost 75% of your battles because you wasted your turns Double Teaming instead of doing something useful.
I've done the battle calculations for you. It has already been shown that Double Team on the average is a worse attack than Cosmic Power. If someone "wins" with Double Team, chances are they would have won if they used Cosmic Power.
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With all of this talk about banning "Haxxy" attacks, how about this one. Confuse Ray / Swagger. A single confuse ray is as effective of 3 turns of Double Team... except you manage to pull it off in a single turn (50% chance of enemy confusion).
Actually, it goes beyond that. Confuse Ray even prevents the opponent from Roosting, Resting, Recovering... and all of the "counters" to Double Team that we talked about are completely vulnerable to confusion hax. Yawn, and even "perfect accuracy moves" like Vital Throw, Aura Sphere, Aerial Ace and Swift's accuracy is reduced to 50% because of the way Confusion Works. Even No Guard Machamp can't do anything when it hits itself in confusion.
At least with double team, you can neutralize the effects with a multitude of attacks and even abilities. Confuse Ray and Swagger? Nope, nada. You're practically forced to use Slowbro.
At this point, behind that essay, you've brought absolutely nothing new to the table besides what? Another calculation? Now the next Anti DT-er will fling at this point, a faith-ball of "It promotes luck, and demotes skill", but instead of putting that simply, it will be dragged out with the same semantics as page one.
What's it gonna take to get DT tested so this age-long argument will be over and done with?
What's it gonna take to get DT tested so this age-long argument will be over and done with?
Good question. For me, I'd organize a series of swiss tournaments of ~32 people arranged in quads. However, I cannot do such an arrangement this week or next week due to finals.
Why swiss? Because the swiss format allows all players to play through all rounds. This means every participant in the test tournament will play some 6 or 7 battles in an environment where DT is unbanned.
The details are fuzzy because I don't plan to do it for at least another 2 weeks. But if anyone here is interested in making such a tournament, I'd be glad to share my ideas. Swiss Tournament styles are pretty simple: your organize people in small sets of 4 or 5, make them play round robin in a group. Then you tally up the win / loss ratios and make the winners face each other, and the losers face each other. So not only do people continuously battle, they battle against people who perform similarly to themselves.
While Swiss tournaments are common in some games... I'm pretty sure they haven't been exploited in Smogon. Thus, I'd have to then create a system (involving PMs and such) that ensures people will be able to organize themselves in their quad. A few rule changes may be necessary to allow for byes... but thats all details I'd just have to work out.
If someone is free to set up such a tournament... we can begin testing this immediately.
Despite the fact that I disagree with them, I currently have a full respect of their arguments. All I need to say on this issue is "bring it". I'll bring my best debate to the table and they can bring their best debate to the table.
No, it doesn't. It does prove that there are multiple competing interests. One of these interests is minimizing luck, yes, but that's not the only goal.
Scary Face and Iron Ball reduce Speed to 50%. Paralysis reduces it to 25%. Scary Face is lost when the Pokemon switches out, paralysis is not. Scary Face is a rare move. Trick is an even rarer move. In other words, the Speed drop of paralysis alone is superior to either of these options.
I really don't know what else to do, really. Calculations have been given. Double Team and Minimize have not been proven to be overcentralizing as the techniques to counter the Pokemon most suitable to those moves are already in place and fairly common.
But, I guess what we need to do is look at it from the point of view that most of you are coming from. I guess we should look at a bunch of Pokemon that would be difficult with Double Team. In Advance, I think it was proven that Double Team was broken, not by itself, but in conjunction with Baton Pass. So I'm going to list the most popular BPers.
Smergle
Ninjask
Zapdos
Celebi
Mew
Drifblim
Mr. Mime
Togekiss
Floatzel
Scizor
Blaziken
Hypno
The Eevee-line (specifically Umbreon)
I think that's it, but I may have missed some.
Smergle can learn every move. We all know that. It's commonly believed that he needs Spore, probably the most overpowered move in the whole game, in my personal opinion, so I doubt anyone's going to replace that. It learns Baton Pass, so that's a slot taken. That leaves Ingrain and Substitute that can be replaced by Double Team. Ingrain, to my knowledge, can't be Baton Passed by any other Pokemon, so I'm pretty sure most people would keep that.
That means it's a toss up between Double Team and Subsitute. I'm pretty sure that's the slot you'll find most people going with, with any of these baton passers. It's up to their personal preference which would help out more. Sacrifice 25% of your HP to put up a safeguard against status, ohko moves, stat reductions, and moves that would potentially cause you severe damage. Or gain a slight but increasingly larger chance that *most* moves and statuses will miss, but at no certain cost to your health.
In the case of a lot of Pokemon, I think you'll see that Double Team has very little to offer to the team. Calm Mind, Bulk Up, Barrier/Iron Defense, Amnesia, Dragon Dance, Nasty Plot, Swords Dance, Agility... I think you'll see that these will help a team a lot more than Double Team would over the course of several battles.
How do you defeat an opponent that has passed an Ingrain to itself and is slowly increasing its stats? You can't roar or whirlwind it out, so what do you do in this situation? I suppose you can treat Double Team in exactly the same way. If a Mr. Mime is Double Teaming up, there's Haze Quagsire or Haze Honchrow as a counter to it. With Baton Pass and Double Team, it has only room for one attacking move and calm mind, or two attacking moves. If it wants Psychic, it has to choose between Thunderbolt and Grass Knot. Or it can use both and have the embarrassment of Weezing or Arbok Hazing it.
Because most of the Pokemon that learn Haze are water or flying types, the Double Teamer almost has to always carry an electric attack. That means that the ground-type will wall it unless it carries a water, grass or ice attack. If it goes with two attacks, it has no moves to recover itself. Zapdos can't use Hidden Power [Grass] against Quagsire if it wants to keep Roost.
A lot of BPers are good because they only need to use a move once or twice to get a desired effect. You don't really need to swords dance three times, but you can if you're feeling confident. Twice is usually enough, depending on the Pokemon and the movepool, to OHKO everything. Double Team doesn't offer that. Not only does it require 3 or 4 turns to get a consistant rate of return out of it, it offers nothing in regards to how much damage you deal or receive when you're hit. When you're hit after using Double Team, the effect is very much like you hadn't done anything that turn at all.
There are a lot more interesting effects this generation in comparison to last, and so I retract my own statement given earlier that Baton Pass and Double Team would be overpowered. While it does remove the syndrome that targetted Pokemon would only have three of its four desired moves, its counterpoint is that it somewhat gimps the Pokemon that does have the move.
TL:DR: Double Team isn't overpowered.
But, I guess what we need to do is look at it from the point of view that most of you are coming from. I guess we should look at a bunch of Pokemon that would be difficult with Double Team. In Advance, I think it was proven that Double Team was broken, not by itself, but in conjunction with Baton Pass. So I'm going to list the most popular BPers.
Smergle
Ninjask
Zapdos
Celebi
Mew
Drifblim
Mr. Mime
Togekiss
Floatzel
Scizor
Blaziken
Hypno
The Eevee-line (specifically Umbreon)
I think that's it, but I may have missed some.
Smergle can learn every move. We all know that. It's commonly believed that he needs Spore, probably the most overpowered move in the whole game, in my personal opinion, so I doubt anyone's going to replace that. It learns Baton Pass, so that's a slot taken. That leaves Ingrain and Substitute that can be replaced by Double Team. Ingrain, to my knowledge, can't be Baton Passed by any other Pokemon, so I'm pretty sure most people would keep that.
That means it's a toss up between Double Team and Subsitute. I'm pretty sure that's the slot you'll find most people going with, with any of these baton passers. It's up to their personal preference which would help out more. Sacrifice 25% of your HP to put up a safeguard against status, ohko moves, stat reductions, and moves that would potentially cause you severe damage. Or gain a slight but increasingly larger chance that *most* moves and statuses will miss, but at no certain cost to your health.
In the case of a lot of Pokemon, I think you'll see that Double Team has very little to offer to the team. Calm Mind, Bulk Up, Barrier/Iron Defense, Amnesia, Dragon Dance, Nasty Plot, Swords Dance, Agility... I think you'll see that these will help a team a lot more than Double Team would over the course of several battles.
How do you defeat an opponent that has passed an Ingrain to itself and is slowly increasing its stats? You can't roar or whirlwind it out, so what do you do in this situation? I suppose you can treat Double Team in exactly the same way. If a Mr. Mime is Double Teaming up, there's Haze Quagsire or Haze Honchrow as a counter to it. With Baton Pass and Double Team, it has only room for one attacking move and calm mind, or two attacking moves. If it wants Psychic, it has to choose between Thunderbolt and Grass Knot. Or it can use both and have the embarrassment of Weezing or Arbok Hazing it.
Because most of the Pokemon that learn Haze are water or flying types, the Double Teamer almost has to always carry an electric attack. That means that the ground-type will wall it unless it carries a water, grass or ice attack. If it goes with two attacks, it has no moves to recover itself. Zapdos can't use Hidden Power [Grass] against Quagsire if it wants to keep Roost.
A lot of BPers are good because they only need to use a move once or twice to get a desired effect. You don't really need to swords dance three times, but you can if you're feeling confident. Twice is usually enough, depending on the Pokemon and the movepool, to OHKO everything. Double Team doesn't offer that. Not only does it require 3 or 4 turns to get a consistant rate of return out of it, it offers nothing in regards to how much damage you deal or receive when you're hit. When you're hit after using Double Team, the effect is very much like you hadn't done anything that turn at all.
There are a lot more interesting effects this generation in comparison to last, and so I retract my own statement given earlier that Baton Pass and Double Team would be overpowered. While it does remove the syndrome that targetted Pokemon would only have three of its four desired moves, its counterpoint is that it somewhat gimps the Pokemon that does have the move.
TL:DR: Double Team isn't overpowered.
Yeah well not everyone has a team capable of baton passing double teams either so just shut up. You can't counter everything, deal with it.
Good point, let's ban Serene Grace, Sand Veil, Quick Claw, Bright Powder, any move that isn't 100% accurate, confusion, infatuation, focus band and fun while we're at it. Only then will we have a metagame we can truly be proud of.
@Dragontamer
You said the majority of the playerbase is ignorant to the logic behind this argument... I'd say you are right. I'd go as far to say that it was banned largely in the first place by frustrated players tired of losing to Double Teams. Other than those who have kept up their logic here on this thread intelligently, other players supporting the Evasion Clause will likely have a poorly constructed and selfish argument, at best.
@Syberia
You're ignoring the other side of the argument. It would seem to me that a majority of those arguing the point here now are beyond the very idea you're presenting. It takes the balance away from 'skill' and toward 'luck'? Sure it does. I can speak for myself by saying that I don't find anything wrong with this.
You said the majority of the playerbase is ignorant to the logic behind this argument... I'd say you are right. I'd go as far to say that it was banned largely in the first place by frustrated players tired of losing to Double Teams. Other than those who have kept up their logic here on this thread intelligently, other players supporting the Evasion Clause will likely have a poorly constructed and selfish argument, at best.
@Syberia
You're ignoring the other side of the argument. It would seem to me that a majority of those arguing the point here now are beyond the very idea you're presenting. It takes the balance away from 'skill' and toward 'luck'? Sure it does. I can speak for myself by saying that I don't find anything wrong with this.
Did you even read his post? It's only worthwhile to baton pass since it's the law that sweepers carry choice items.
Not to mention Lock On, Mind Reader, Shock Wave, Swift, Aura Sphere, Aireil Ace etc. Do you have any idea how many Pokémon can learn those moves? There's more than one way to laugh at a Double Teamer.