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Wait... Garchomp's uncounterable?

Now that I think of it your post reminds me of the restalk Gyrados I used to use for a short while as my Lucario and Heracross counter. It kinda makes me wanna use it again just with Ice Fang over earthquake.

This calculator is a little harder to use than Metalkid's but I like how it includes possible stealth rocks and sandstorm damage.
http://www.ownpurpose.com/damage_calc.php
 
Weird... my damage calc that I wrote myself straight from the damage formula guide gets extremely close if not tied with Metalkid's... anyway...

What about Steelix?
 
Garchomp can die, just use Ice pokemon. Ok I was battling a lvl 100 Garchomp with a lvl 100 Swampert and guess who won. I did. just use a attack like Ice beam.
 
CBChomp isn't 100% handled by Cress, it's 90% handled by Cress and 10% handled by a bulky Steel type if for some reason Stealth Rock hasn't been cleared by my Spinner and someone actually is stupid enough to run CB Outrage when i can just switch in a Steel type and KO with something like Choice Band Steelix Ice Fang, etc.

If that's not pretty damn close to a 100% counter, I really don't know what is.

If you carry two specific Pokemon to counter a single Garchomp, sure, it's a 100% counter if the definition of a counter now includes multiple team members, but we are now talking about needing two Pokemon to counter one which speaks for itself.

Now you'll try to bring up Porygon-Z and Lucario and say they're also uncounterable, but Calm Blissey handles the former just fine, at the very least crippling it with T-Wave for an easy kill on its 85/70/75 defenses. Lucario may be hard to handle but he is also harder to set up in the first place with 70/70/70 and base 90 speed.

You also fail to mention Porygon-Z is restricted to crappy normal STAB, while Garchomp gets one of the best STAB combos in the game, and that knowing Lucario's set goes a long way to countering him. You usually know exactly what moves Garchomp has but he can still kill you.

That's why you don't counter him, you put ice moves on everything and overspecialize, or fight fire with fire by using your own Garchomp. Kind of sucks for the metagame as a whole, but what else can you do.

Also, max/max Steelix is almost 1hko'd by SD earthquake and 2hko'd by CB earthquake.
 
I personally use Jumpluff as my "counter" for Garchomp. It's worked every time for me so far, but it does require a great deal of prediction, but that's my game.

The 110 base Speed allows for a really quick Encore. Since most Garchomp are Swords Dance variations, they're pretty easy to predict. I predict either a Swords Dance or Earthquake, Encore that move when I switch Jumpluff into it since I'm faster, and now Garchomp is forced to switch out.

If I'm in a lot of trouble, I'll use Sleep Powder on Garchomp, since even with Sand Veil up, it at least has 60% accuracy which is Hypnosis's old accuracy. Jumpluff can also Paralyze Garchomp if he really wants to with Stun Spore since Garchomp isn't immune to that unlike with Thunder Wave.

Since Jumpluff has shit offenses, I maxed speed but made him as bulky as I could on the physically defensive side.

He has problems with Stone Edge and Fire Blast, but other than that, he does a pretty good job of stopping Garchomp for me in my experience because of the super-fast Encore.

Cloyster seems to be the most reliable thing I've seen in this thread so far though. I agree with Aldy though that in order to beat Garchomp, you've just got to repeatedly attack it, especially since it rarely has defensive EVs, so STAB attacks can still do quite a bit of damage even if they're neutral.

Sorry if I sound condescending, but I read your post and I was worried that someone might think you're serious.

Jumpluff is a terrible Garchomp counter. First of all, you are weak to two of its most common moves (Fire Blast and Stone Edge). Secondly, relying on "prediction" should only be a last resort in any situation, since your opponent is "predicting" just as much as you are. Thirdly, what is Jumpluff actually doing to counter Garchomp? Oh no you encored me and now I have to switch out after you did no damage to me and exposed what your "counter" is so I can easily 2HKO it next time and now I can only switch in pretty much any OU pokemon to wall your Jumpluff completely and make you start backpedalling.

But other than that, Jumpluff is a good counter to Garchomp.

Also, Cloyster really isn't a counter to Garchomp either although it would make a good revenge killer. It doesn't resist ANY of Garchomp's moves, is weak to Stealth Rock, and generally has better things to do anyways. That's like saying that Gengar makes a good Starmie counter.
 
Garchomp can die, just use Ice pokemon. Ok I was battling a lvl 100 Garchomp with a lvl 100 Swampert and guess who won. I did. just use a attack like Ice beam.
80% accuracy, Sub, Yache Berry/Bright Powder.

I don't know, but your argument is pretty poor when you completely ignore some of the principle reasons why Garchomp is "really good."
 
Also, Cloyster really isn't a counter to Garchomp either although it would make a good revenge killer. It doesn't resist ANY of Garchomp's moves, is weak to Stealth Rock, and generally has better things to do anyways. That's like saying that Gengar makes a good Starmie counter.
Max/Max Cloyster might be 3-hit KOed by CB Stone Edges. If it comes in on a sub, Icicle spear beats it down hard. It is 3-hit KOed by CB Outrages, and it survives any Life Orbed swords danced attack. Toss on Ice Shard and Blizzard and you've got game. Too bad Icicle spear cannot OHKO (erm... 5-hit KO?) if you run max/max defenses... but aside from that I don't really see the big problem.

It isn't a "counter" because of Draco Meteor, but for physical Garchomp... it at least gets the job done (and it isn't a counter because it can't heal off the damages... but it still forces garchomp out at least)

80% accuracy, Sub, Yache Berry/Bright Powder.

I don't know, but your argument is pretty poor when you completely ignore some of the principle reasons why Garchomp is "really good."
So it wins 80% of the time. Just about the same amount of times that a Swampert beats CB Tyranitar. (CB Crunch has 20% chance of lowering Swampert's defense, which is a win on T-Tar)

Yache Berry Garchomp is 2-hit KOed by Ice Beam. Yache Berry / Brightpowder Garchomp 3-hit / 4-hit KOs Swampert with earthquake, and doesn't hurt him too much with Outrage (enough that you can just switch to metagross or something). Brightpowder Garchomp is similar except it has a higher probability of dieing compared to Yache Berry (OHKOed by Ice Beam).
 
Chomp is only impossible to counter in the sense that Tyranitar is impossible to counter. There isn't a pokemon that can switch in on any move of any set and return an OHKO like Gliscor could do to Heracross for example. More specifically, there isn't one that isn't mostly useless otherwise. I believe the OP provides a highly valid point there. Simply put, Chomp is in a similar league with Ttar, you need to be carrying multiple pokemon capable of killing it because if you lose a single counter, it'll probably burn through your team. This isn't to say you need three pokemon built around killing Garchomp, but you should have at least two pokemon capable of forcing it to switch, a lot of pokemon are capable of doing that unless you're fucking dumb and let it get behind a sub and boosted in which case you deserve to lose anyways.

And lol at starmie counter, in this argument, a counter is something that could feasibly survive a switchin and kill it. Starmie is slower than the great majority of chomp sets if I remember correctly, and though Starmie is pretty beefy for a sweeper, it won't survive two hits, period.
 
lol at the Starmie counter?

IMO counters dont always have to be switch ins. But in that case, Starmie with focus sash then.

Chomp = Slower than Starmie, unless Garchomp has choice scarf.
 
Chris is Me said:
Hey IggyBot, does the definition of a counter mention anything about Stealth Rock? Not really. That's me being anal

Sorry, since you assumed you had a layer of Spikes up, I assumed I had Stealth Rock up. You can't have it just one way you know.

Reflect Celebi is actually a rather good Garchomp counter with HP Ice, as Darkie mentioned. Reflect also helps other members of your team take on Garchomp, which is very nice.

After a Reflect, Garchomp must spend another turn Swords Dancing to 2HKO Celebi with Outrage. You can easily use this free turn to either recover, or HP Ice Garchomp. If Garchomp comes directly into Celebi, it's even easier to win. HP Ice 2HKO's Garchomp, so it's all good there as well.
 
Yanmega, modest nature, 252 Satk evs, HP ice 70. OHKO everytime.

He's strong, but Yanmega tears through him. You give Yanmega protect, you get an extra speed boost, and only have to worry about scarfs. If you're lucky, you get two protects in a row, and you will outspeed pretty much everything.

I've never had problems with Garpchomp with this Yanmega.
 
Weird... my damage calc that I wrote myself straight from the damage formula guide gets extremely close if not tied with Metalkid's... anyway...

What about Steelix?

Using the standard Defensive Wall on Smogon ( 252 HP / 120 Atk / 136 SpD/Impish) with Ice Fang as your move, and using MetalKid's Calc again we get:

ScarfChomp/Outrage to Steelix: 15.25% - 18.08%
Steelix/IceFang to Garchomp: 56.15% - 65.92%

With Leftovers recovery on the Steelix you're walling ScarfChomp. Even if he sees him coming:

ScarfChomp/Fire Blast to Steelix: 39.55% - 46.61%
ScarfChomp/Fire Fang to Steelix: 22.60% - 26.55%
ScarfChomp/Earthquake to Steelix: 51.13% - 60.17%
ScarfChomp/Stone Edge to Steelix: 4.24% - 5.08%

If Garchomp predicts Steelix and grabs EQ you could be in real trouble. With Fire Blast you're 3HKO'd and probably won't get to hit back twice with Ice Fang.

Also, Steelix has no Recover move other than Restalk so if he out predicts you you're going to only be good for Exploding on the next Pokemon in.

All in all its not completely intolerable.
 
Max/Max Cloyster might be 3-hit KOed by CB Stone Edges. If it comes in on a sub, Icicle spear beats it down hard. It is 3-hit KOed by CB Outrages, and it survives any Life Orbed swords danced attack. Toss on Ice Shard and Blizzard and you've got game. Too bad Icicle spear cannot OHKO (erm... 5-hit KO?) if you run max/max defenses... but aside from that I don't really see the big problem.

second for the Cloyster countering. Icicle Spear / Ice Shard always beats it, beats Yache and Substitute.

CB Outrage does 50% - 59% iirc so it can be 2HKO'd but if you see that much damage on the switch in you can go for the shard and hope you live the next turn to shard again.

It isn't a "counter" because of Draco Meteor, but for physical Garchomp... it at least gets the job done (and it isn't a counter because it can't heal off the damages... but it still forces garchomp out at least)
Don't anybody ask how badly it takes a Draco Meteor...
 
Mamoswine with Ice Shard + CBand

Max HP, Max Attack + Adament Nature.

Can't it take 1 hit from a +2 Life Orb EQ? If so, use Avalanche, if not revenge kill it with Ice Shard.

With Max Life, it can probably survive a LO Draco Meteor, but maybe even a fire blast?

Otherwise try Milotic= RestTalk or even switch in with Flame Orb activated Marvel Scale. She also packs Ice Beam/Blizzard.

Oh, and don't forget Custap Berry on defensive Cloyster, if SR is active then it takes a 75% minimum for Garchomp's Cband Outrage, letting Cloyster go first for the IHKO on Ice Beam (and replacing the need for Ice Shard), not to mention Outrage traps Garchomp so, it is literally a Guarantee Cloyster will 1hko it the next turn, and since the berry doesn't activate till next turn, it will be a nasty surprise no one except YOU will expect.
 
Sorry if I sound condescending, but I read your post and I was worried that someone might think you're serious.

Jumpluff is a terrible Garchomp counter. First of all, you are weak to two of its most common moves (Fire Blast and Stone Edge). Secondly, relying on "prediction" should only be a last resort in any situation, since your opponent is "predicting" just as much as you are. Thirdly, what is Jumpluff actually doing to counter Garchomp? Oh no you encored me and now I have to switch out after you did no damage to me and exposed what your "counter" is so I can easily 2HKO it next time and now I can only switch in pretty much any OU pokemon to wall your Jumpluff completely and make you start backpedalling.

But other than that, Jumpluff is a good counter to Garchomp.

Also, Cloyster really isn't a counter to Garchomp either although it would make a good revenge killer. It doesn't resist ANY of Garchomp's moves, is weak to Stealth Rock, and generally has better things to do anyways. That's like saying that Gengar makes a good Starmie counter.

Heh, uhh I don't think that the sarcasm at the beginning of your post is going to make your post sound any more intelligent so don't even try that. Geez...

First off, notice how I put the word counter in quotation marks? That's supposed to note that it's not an actual counter, because the word itself is extremely vague.

Second, Garchomp hardly ever carries Stone Edge unless it's Choiced, and most don't carry Fire Blast unless they're the Chain Chomp variation. I'm saying that this is good for the SD variation. If it's Choiced, I take care of it like I do with any Choice user.

Why exactly should relying on prediction be a last resort at all? You're supposed to be using prediction the entire match, so if anything, it should be a first resort. With Garchomp especially, there's no 100% counter which has been stated a million billion times in this thread, so every one of Garchomp's "counters" SHOULD have to rely on prediction, because Garchomp has a way of taking out every one of them if they predict wrong. Even the ones that come really close like Cresselia can be taken out by Garchomp.

What is Jumpluff doing to counter Garchomp? Well, there's the Encoring, but also let's see...Sleep Powder? How about Subseeding? After you Encore him, Jumpluff can also U-Turn out while Garchomp is switching to give you the advantage.

Heh, why exactly would it matter if Jumpluff gets walled? It's not like it's an offensively-based pokemon anyway. I won't exactly be "back-pedalling" if your switch-in gets statused or hit with Leech Seed.

I'm not sure about this, but are you saying that a "counter" always has to be able to deal a huge amount of damage to the HP of the opponent they're countering? If so, that doesn't make sense, because then how exactly does Blissey counter anything?

Geez, I never even said that Jumpluff was a good "counter" to Garchomp, I just said that's what I personally use to stop him. This thread is opinion, I don't really see the need to say that something's terrible at it's job when you haven't used it for this purpose and I obviously have. Notice how many times I said "for me" in my original post.

Also, about your Cloyster paragraph, first off, why'd you mention Gengar being a good counter to Starmie? That has nothing to do with Cloyster being a "counter" to Garchomp. Cloyster has good defense, Gengar has terrible defense, I don't understand the relation.

You also said that Cloyster has better things to do than stopping Gengar. Like what? If you're implying that it should be a spiker, then it's pretty much completely outclassed there by the other spikers. Stopping Garchomp would actually make it useful, so why not? It doesn't really matter if it doesn't resist any of Garchomp's moves. Blissey doesn't resist a great majority of the special attackers' moves, but it still stops them anyway...
 
Starmie also can use Psychic, and can be naturally faster...

Let's take a look at Milotic with Blizzard (as Ice beam needs SPecial Attack Evs that Milotic is dumping in HP/Def on the SLeeptalk versions)

or even Custop Berry on CLoyster (with SR in play OUtrage with CBand does a minimum of 75%, guaranteeing Custop's activation).


Try Focus Sash Clefable (revenge Kill), as nothing, including SRocks, Weather, Spikes, Stops it from using Focus Sash+Counter.

Seriously, if Anything Clefable with Focus Sash is a GUARANTEED WAY to *Revenge Kill* Garchomp, or switch in on the Swords Dance. If they use Substitute then you are skrewed, but in ANY OTHER situation, using FOcus Sash+Counter Clefable is a bonifed victory.

You may even use a -Def Nature so you counter for Maximum HP, but I doubt it's needed.

Clefable @ Focus Sash
Modest
252 HP, 252 Special Attack

Ice Beam (for Breaking Substitutes- if it Swords Dances or Substitutes in your face)
Counter
Encore (if it Swords Dances or Substitutes in your face)
Filler/Softboiled

Remember, you will survive at 1 Hp, so Softboiled might be an option if Celfable is faster than your opponent, say Forretress... (perhaps thats all they have left)
 
I don't understand how people can talk about Cloyster as a counter while discarding Hippowdon. "Hippo is killed by Draco Meteor+EQ". So what? Cloyster is OHKOed by Draco Meteor.

You just need to accept that Garchomp isn't 100% counterable. So what? Some Pokemon require multiple counters. YOu cannot have just assume that the Pokemon you'll use to counter Chomp will be at max health or alive once it comes out. You've got to play around it like Iggybot said.
 
Look at my Sash Clefable post above yours, I beleive that is a counter to Garchomp (as a Revenge Kill), or when coming in on Swords Dance.

Plus with it being a surprise, unlike against a CBAND Weavile, it will probably not cause them to switch out, and take the bait.
 
I don't understand how people can talk about Cloyster as a counter while discarding Hippowdon. "Hippo is killed by Draco Meteor+EQ". So what? Cloyster is OHKOed by Draco Meteor.
Very rarely is he OHKOed (going all out SpD will ensure that he won't be). What he has over hippowdon is STAB ice shard.

Hippo comes in on Draco meteor = dead Hippo and Garchomp is -2 Satk
Cloyster comes in on Draco meteor = dead Cloyser and Garchomp is -2 Satk and missing half his health
 
SR being omnipresent, Cloyster is as good as dead. Plus if you're going to be pumping his SDef(50/180 or 50/45, which do you think you should focus on?), you're really going to be overcentralising. And hell you'll be down one Pokemon anyway. If you're going to sacrifice Cloyster for 50% of Garchomp's health, you might as well sacrficice something else and OHKO with CB Ice Punch from Weavile.
 
IF Mamoswine had MAx Def, Max HP and + Def nature, but Choice Band, would Ice Shard 1hko, and would it survive Outrage and/or Draco Meteor?

Consider its High HP.
 
IF Mamoswine had MAx Def, Max HP and + Def nature, but Choice Band, would Ice Shard 1hko, and would it survive Outrage and/or Draco Meteor?

Consider its High HP.

Outrage does (54.72% - 64.62%)

Draco Meteor does (76.65% - 90.57%)

With Stealth Rock it is an OHKO on Mamoswine.

With 4 Atk EVs, Ice Shard does (99.72% - 117.45%) to Garchomp with Choice Band and (86.43% - 103.05%) to a Garchomp with 16 HP EVs.
 
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