DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)

With Smeargle I actually see one set being potentially game breaking.

@Focus Sash
-Spider Web/Mean Look
-Spore
-Baton Pass
-(Filler)

Trap passing is on a whole different level of threat in UU where so much of the game revolves around offense and switches for defense, quite frankly I don't see Mach Punch countering that since you'd still need to switch in.
 
Plus Smeargle certainly isn't short on 'filler' options. To be honest I don't understand how listing the wide range of PHazers in UU can be called an argument against Smeargle's BL status given that the filler move could easily be Ingrain, which is no gimmick as it is a viable option on BP chains.

There's also the fact that Focus Sash strategies are much more deadly without the Sandstorm/Hail damage to screw them over.

Still, I feel that almost everything will eventually end up UU the way this discussion is going.
 
In my own personal opinion, I'll actually have to agree with Lemmi somewhat. I think UU may have actually reached its saturation point in the current situation. At the most Tauros, Aerodactyl, Venusaur and the two leftover rejections from the recent move down are the only legitimate discussions left.

After a verdict is reached on them I don't really think theres anything left worth discussing until either.

a) Platinum releases
b) A new format for the tiers is agreed upon first
 
To be honest I don't understand how listing the wide range of PHazers in UU can be called an argument against Smeargle's BL status given that the filler move could easily be Ingrain, which is no gimmick as it is a viable option on BP chains.
Click to expand...

It wasn't ... it was intended as a response to the suggestion that

and UU is lacking phazers like crazy.
Click to expand...

I will edit my post to clarify this.
 
Is Arcanine so overpowered to UU?

Disadvantages:
  • Stealth Rock weak, which really hurts, and with Stealth Rock nearly everywhere with Scyther around and Steelix to lay them down.
  • Short movepool, which doesn't help. It only can set up with Agility (with Extremespeed it doesn't need it) and Howl (too slow setting up...).
  • Its only way to hurt Rock types is Iron Tail, and with Agron and Probopass around...
  • Ground and Water weakness, which is worring in UU.
  • Physical sets, have problems with Quagsire, Aggron and Probopass, and special ones, only can counter Quagsire (HP grass) or Aggron/Probopass (HP fighting/ground).
  • Torkoal completely walls it, and with Earthquake, it's 2HKO'd, furthermore, it can lay Stealth Rocks down too. The same goes with Lanturn, because it won't worry about Hidden Powers...
Advantages:
  • Good stats (TBS 555).
  • Good attack and special attack, which allow it to be a mixed sweeper.
  • Some improvements in DP, Flare Blitz and Thunder Fang are its friends.
  • Two great abilities. Intimidate helps with physical threats, and Fire Absorb makes him really dangerous with the boost.
What do you think about it?
 
Another addition to Arcanine's movepool that the previous poster failed to mention is Dragon Pulse. Only Heatran resists both Fire Blast and Dragon Pulse, and Heatran isn't UU. So Arcanine actually doesn't need to have that big of a movepool anyway and, if all else fails, there's always Hidden Power. It also has Crunch to counter UU special walls which are invariably weak to Dark.

In short, I'm not an authority in UU by all means, but I'd seriously think twice about putting Arcanine in UU.
 
With UU, Arcanine would most likely switch roles from mostly being a physical attacker to being a Special/Mixed attacker. A Crunch, Hp Grass, Fire Blast, Dragon Pulse/Extremespeed set pretty much destroys UU.

Arcanine isnt exactly the easiest thing to take down either with it's above average HP and defensive stats complimented by Intimidate. My opnion is to simply leave it in BL.

Also i'd like to know exactly what we are going to be doing with the pokemon suggested, are we simply going to move them down based on the responses in this thread or are we going to hold a tournament (which from experience will probaly take too long and then people will still argue).

A UU ladder would be nice and all to help us decide with it's statistics, but due to the fact that far fewer people play UU in comparison to Ubers and OU i don't think it might be that helpful in this case. So where do we go from these suggestions?
 
Maniaclyrasist said:
A UU ladder would be nice and all to help us decide with it's statistics, but due to the fact that far fewer people play UU in comparison to Ubers and OU i don't think it might be that helpful in this case. So where do we go from these suggestions?
Click to expand...
People would play UU more if UU ladder existed. At least I would.
 
Maniaclyrasist said:
A UU ladder would be nice and all to help us decide with it's statistics, but due to the fact that far fewer people play UU in comparison to Ubers and OU i don't think it might be that helpful in this case. So where do we go from these suggestions?
Click to expand...
I've actually been noticing quite a few people poking around in UU, lots of different names and one time i saw 8 (!) people in the UU list. Lately Ubers seems empty, I think we should circulate a petition or something to get an UU ladder going.
 
Obi already mentioned something about trying to get a UU ladder started iirc, what i'm asking is what are we going to be doing while it happens.....
 
Maniaclyrasist said:
Obi already mentioned something about trying to get a UU ladder started iirc, what i'm asking is what are we going to be doing while it happens.....
Click to expand...

We will just move things around, like we did with Pinsir, Leafeon, Steelix and Drapion. This is much quicker than having to organize a tournament, and opens up testing to a wider range of people (everyone).

It seems Arcanine would likely be a bit much to handle. To be honest, I didn't consider the possibility of a mixed set.

I would like to hear more about battle experiences with Leafeon, Steelix and Drapion. Are any of them too powerful for UU? I haven't had much time to play/watch recently, but what little experience I've had with them leads me to believe all three are fine in UU.
 
Drapion, Leafeon and Steelix at least 2 of them is on every team I have recently thought.

Leafeon - I have not found this to be threatening as of yet, have been swept once by him, but that was a silly mistake on my part.

Steelix - THE defensive wall in UU now, gives me more reason to use Mixed Pokes now, as it now walls Super Luck Absol which is something I felt needed.

Drapion - Most seen this used as an offensive sweeper, and makes a Powerful EQ needed, Also walls Super luck Absol in the defensive form.

All and all I find that these aren't really a big problem as of yet.
 
Maniaclyrasist said:
With UU, Arcanine would most likely switch roles from mostly being a physical attacker to being a Special/Mixed attacker. A Crunch, Hp Grass, Fire Blast, Dragon Pulse/Extremespeed set pretty much destroys UU.
Click to expand...

Or Overheat. I think Arcanine's abilities (intimidate or flashfire really), especially intimidate, lead it to being a very good pokemon for switching in and out, throwing out massive overheats each time it comes in, which can then be followed up by extremespeed, crunch or other physical assaults if necessary.
 
Good reason about the mixed Arcanine, it has some counter anyway in UU, but it would be a bit overcentralizing...

Obi said:
A petition isn't going to do anything.
Click to expand...

What could we do? There are a lot of people who play in UU, but a ladder would increase that number, which could help us to do a balanced tier... I don't know when this could appear in Shoddy. I think that 1st June could be the right day, so we could see a real list with UU usage, and not only theorymon.
 
Phuquoph said:
I would like to hear more about battle experiences with Leafeon, Steelix and Drapion. Are any of them too powerful for UU? I haven't had much time to play/watch recently, but what little experience I've had with them leads me to believe all three are fine in UU.
Click to expand...

So far, from what i've seen, Steelix is on 3/4 of all teams as it is now pretty much the best physical wall in UU, although not all overpowering in anyway.

Leafeon is relatively common, but with mostly all out physical attacking sets with Swords Dance, the baton asser is actually pretty rare. It's a big physical threat that should probaly still be kept on watch for now but people seem to have adapted fairly well to counter it.

Drapion although not as common as Leafeon is still relatively common, and from what i've seen it is mostly playing a defensive role with Toxic Spikes, or Knock Off, it also funtions as a pretty decent Leafeon counter.

I have yet to see a Jynx besides the one i've used, which has served me relatively well. However find it's terribly hard to get in and even when i do get it in i wish it was just a bit faster in most cases. I don't really see any problems with Jynx being in UU.
 
From what I've seen.

Steelix is possibly the most common thing right now, I barely see a team without it. However overpowering it is not, every Steelix performance I've seen so far has been pretty lukewarm. It does its job in stopping physical sweeps and setting up Rocks and phazing. But simple burns, Intimidate Hitmontop and average water poke all deal with it fine. I even had the amusment of getting to watch a Dunsparce flinch one to death and seeing a Intimidate Hitmontop survive Explosion with 30% of its HP intact.

Leafeon has been showing up abit, most variations I've seen have seemed to focus on fast sweeps rather than support. Its pretty easy to deal with though with a Ice Beam or a random flying attack. It also generally gets stopped cold by Steelix and Drapion. I will say this needs watching though, SD Leaf Blade is surprisingly more effective in UU.

Drapion has been pretty rare and the few I've seen have been lackluster attempts at a Crithax sweeper. They get mauled surprisingly easily due to sacrificing all their bulk...

However the dangerous and effective Drapions I've seen are of the Impish 252 variety usually using Knock Off and Whirlwind. One of the most highly effective Drapions I came across was a Confuse Ray one. It was giving everything a hard time since it was faster than most of its counters and kept haxing them out.

Jynx, well I've seen a total of two of them in action. One threw off its Sleep than got horribly horribly walled by a Mantine, poor thing was being toyed with. The other was just utterly priority raped within two moves, it did nothing.

Scyther, has been noticeably tamed with the introduction of Steelix and Drapion. Also most players are beginning to realise Stealth Rocks are not a luxury but a necessity in UU where it does far heavier damage.

I've also noticed Hitmontop has been gaining an increasingly commanding prescence in UU too. I somewhat suspect Hitmontop and Steelix usuage might spike this month.
 
I've used a 'Top on every UU team since D/P. ;_;

I really like the new additions. Quagsire needed some company in the physical walling clubhouse.
 
I have seen loads of steelix. I use one myself because it is a great companion to Mantine :). They really dont do a lot though. If I can find a new defensive wall that I like, it is gone.

Also Jynx is deadly. A quick technician'd bullet punch from Hitmontop takes care of it nicely though.
 
Phuquoph said:
I would like to hear more about battle experiences with Leafeon, Steelix and Drapion. Are any of them too powerful for UU? I haven't had much time to play/watch recently, but what little experience I've had with them leads me to believe all three are fine in UU.
Click to expand...


I've been putting in some UU matches recently-- albeit I'm pretty inexperienced. I pretty much slapped together a team of the strongest UU sweepers with no walls (ie, I didn't use Steelix/Leafeon/Drapion) and saw how things could hold up. Team was: Luxray(semi-bulk/utility), Rapidash (mix), Scyther (BP), Absol(CB), Lapras, and Nidoking(Mixed).

I did see a LOT of these 3 pokemon, mostly because people are testing them I think. Reversely, I slapped these attackers together as a team to see how they could handle them.

I found Steelix's slowness and weaknesses were too easily exploitable. I mean it couldn't stop 5/6 of my team (scyther'd just BP out), and was constantly running away. Even luxray with Hidden Power 2 HKO'd it, and wasn't exactly afraid of earthquake (especially after intimidate). There wasn't a single match where steelix was able to switch in and wall me.

I even had one game where it came to 3 v. Absol, 1 full health absol v. 40% Steelix and 2 enemies Paralyzed by Luxray. Steelix fell to Absol's Night Slashes and allowed Absol to sweep the last two and get me the win. Problem isn't its defenses, it just can't do anything back. Well that's always been steelix's problem.

Drapion, while not weak, was certainly not over powering either from what I saw. Scyther would just run away with BP again, and it's not like it can set up SRs either. While it could earthquake, it's just not enough to damage to stop things like Nidoking, and not enough speed to stand up to things like Overheat Rapidash. Even Luxray (who I used as kind of a pseudo-gyara) could leave it severely hampered with T-Wave/Intimidate even after being weakened by previous opponents (Lux was my lead).

With Scyther, Rapidash and Nidoking, Leafeon was the least of my problems. From what I saw of Leafeon, it can't handle the same duties of a grass type as well as some others-- that is, handling water types. Leafeon did not like trying to switch into Lapras' Hydropump. That Sp.DEF is just too low.

Overall, from what I saw, the level of viable special attacking in UU is a lot higher than in OU because of lack of blissey and Hypno's exploitable weaknesses. As a result, the weak sp.DEF of these 3 makes them far from invincible.
 
The problem with Steelix isn't his walling tendecies. Not at all. Its the simple fact that he's pretty much guaranteed to easily switch in on SOMETHING in a team, lay down SRock, and he's done his main job already. And have a look at what his use neuters even more:
- Swellow.
Where did those beasties go? I used to see them all around, now Steelix is here and...poof?
- Vespiquen.
While never being the most common UU, it was pretty useful...emphasis on was. With its low speed, losing 50% of health on the switchin is lethal, particulary if its the walling variety.
- Butterfree.
Loveable but out of a job now.

And thats just the start of it. Steelix neuters so much in UU just by being there, its not funny anymore. Teams have to be fully adjusted just to suit the presence of Steelix. Drapion and Leafeon, I'm not concerned about. Jynx, however, is another issue. Hitmontop is dangerous, Persian can be a thorn in its side, as can Hypno, but otherwise, I've been pulling off clean sweeps with her several times. I wouldn't say its overpowered though.
 
Really, just being able to lay down 1 layer of rocks makes something overpowered? That seems a bit farfetched. Actually, I don't even have a spinner on my team and I haven't had to deal with rocks because I've never seen them get layed down. Especially by steelix-- it's always running from this or that special threat.
 
OK well so far we've been discussing a few new possible additions to UU, the most probable being Venusaur, Aerodactyl and Tauros, there hasnt been that much opposition to any of them aside from a few worries about Aerodactly argued by Deck Knight, so can we assume that the community doesn't have a problem with allowing these pokemon into UU?

Also aside from the 3 pokemon mentioned above I think it's also time we gave Shedinja it's spot back in UU, not much pokemon in UU have trouble with taking it out and with Stealth Rock being just about everywhere I don't see how it will be too problematic.

I'll also mention the possibility of Miltank and Articuno in UU, Miltank has been mentioned before but it doesn't appear to have been given that much attention. Miltanks stats are mediocre except for his HP, it has decent speed and pretty good defence. I don't see much of a problem putting it in UU, which does have it's fair share of heavy attackers. Miltank also doesn't have any resistances to rely on so it can be worn down relatively easily even with Milk Drink at it's disposal.

Articuno suffers from being stripped of 50% of it's health everytime it switches in, has exploitable weaknesses and lacks decent offense, doesn't seem like there is any good reason he shouldn't be UU.
 
Im definetly against Aerodactyl. It is too fast and with a liferb, I can think of anything that will beable to stop it if it has Fire blast.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top