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DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)

I say Entei needs testing here. Seriously, a poke thats deemed less useful as Ledian has issues. We already have strong UU Fire types, we could use a more physical one to compete with Ninetales.

Just because Entei has low usage doesn't mean that it should compete in UU. Entei has little reason to go Physical in UU with it's less than average Physical movepool.

UU simply has no answer to a sub cm set packing Flamethrower and HP Grass aside from Altaria who would need to pack Earthquake to have any real chance of stopping Entei anyway. It also has good defences backed by that large HP stat....my suggestion is to just leave it in BL.
 
At least it has one decent counter. A good number of UU Pokemon don't have any comfortable counters. It is just how UU is; focus on your strategy and adapt to threats situationally. It is impossible to cover everything 100%.

Which Pokemon are those that lack solid counters? I'm just curious.

Only if you predict the right switch, just like any other Choice user. Besides Hitmontop's attack is only base 95, there are far more threatening Choice users in UU (Hitmonlee, Manectric, Glaceon etc) and not many people complain about them these days.

The thing I see that Hitmontop has over those is its Technician set. It's basically the ultimate revenge-killer and can stop any strategy with relative ease. Fake Out + Mach/Bullet Punch does a surprising amount of damage in OU, and even more in the frailer UU.
 
Fake Out is very predictable and Mach Punch is easily countered by many UU pokemon... poison types like the Nidos, any flying type that isn't normal, psychics like Hypno and Grumpig.. and even the frail Rotom which also resists Bullet Punch and can WoW Hitmontop. IMO Hitmonchan is far more threatening and you don't hear people complaining about him..
 
Which Pokemon are those that lack solid counters? I'm just curious.

Well Nidoking and Clefable are the two most obvious ones that spring to mind with their insanely huge offensive movepools.

I'd also put Primeape and Hitmonchan on that list despite the latter being purely physical. Claydol doesn't counter them as it is 2HKO'd by CB Ice Punch in both cases. Primeape even has U-Turn and a selection of Dark moves to hit it hard with. Can you name one Pokemon in UU that stands up to anything they can dish out?

There is also a case for Altaria. Despite mediocre 70 base offenses it can hit incredibly hard with an unresisted Dragon/Ground combo on both sides of the spectrum; Specs Draco Meteor/HP Ground on the special side, Dragon Dance + Dragon Rush/Earthquake on the physical side. A CB set is also not out of the question, although unlikely. Maybe Shuckle can take it on if Stealth Rock isn't down, otherwise I can't think of anything that can take any set simultaneously.
 
There is also a case for Altaria. Despite mediocre 70 base offenses it can hit incredibly hard with an unresisted Dragon/Ground combo on both sides of the spectrum; Specs Draco Meteor/HP Ground on the special side, Dragon Dance + Dragon Rush/Earthquake on the physical side. A CB set is also not out of the question, although unlikely. Maybe Shuckle can take it on if Stealth Rock isn't down, otherwise I can't think of anything that can take any set simultaneously.

Ehh, don't forget that it also has the ability to re-fill its Draco Meteor to full power with Psych Up whenever it wants if it chooses to run something like a Life Orb set.

Altaria is actually pretty easy to counter with HP Ice Wormadam-S, provided that it just stays away from Flamethrower (Anticipation will let it know if Altaria has Flamethrower). It takes quite a low amount of damage from Dragon Rush/Earthquake, even with Dragon Dance up, and it takes Specs Draco Meteor/HP Ground like a champ. Then it 2HKO with HP Ice. The more defensive sets are much easier to counter with other pokemon anyway.
 
Fake Out is very predictable and Mach Punch is easily countered by many UU pokemon... poison types like the Nidos, any flying type that isn't normal, psychics like Hypno and Grumpig.. and even the frail Rotom which also resists Bullet Punch and can WoW Hitmontop.

Rotom fails to switch in to Stone Edge, and Hypno and Grumpig don't like it a lot either. Oh yeah, it also wrecks non-Normal Flying-types. Earthquake hurts Muk and Nidoking/Nidoqueen.

But that's beside the point. The fact is that, despite how predictable it may be, Hitmontop can come in on any strategy, hit it with two priority moves, and if that doesn't work, it can switch back out and come in again. Hitmontop makes many strategies obselete and there's not a damn thing you can do if it comes in on your +6 Spe +6 SpA +6 Atk Exploud. You are forced to work your way around it, and any time you kill something it can just come right back in and revenge-kill whatever's out.

IMO Hitmonchan is far more threatening and you don't hear people complaining about him..

How so? It's offensively inferior to every other fighting-type in UU, unless you count the improved power of Focus Punch...
 
Altaria is actually pretty easy to counter with HP Ice Wormadam-S, provided that it just stays away from Flamethrower (Anticipation will let it know if Altaria has Flamethrower).

So Wormadam-S switches in on a Specs Altaria preparing Flamethrower, shudders in anticipation then, um, dies horribly. So much for its amazing trait.

It takes quite a low amount of damage from Dragon Rush/Earthquake, even with Dragon Dance up, and it takes Specs Draco Meteor/HP Ground like a champ. Then it 2HKO with HP Ice.

Being able to 2HKO with HP Ice isn't enough as Altaria can simply Roost off the damage, although admittedly a combination of HP Ice, Toxic and Rest could technically counter the DD set somewhat. Nevertheless Wormadam-S is not a counter by definition as it cannot switch in to any set carrying a Fire attack.

Besides Altaria was just a tentative suggestion as in fact a number of other Pokemon like Walrein and Lapras could counter it also if Stealth Rock is taken out of the equation, but that move is so prevalent in UU that it is normal to assume that it will be on the field when taking overall damage into account.
 
I think a more solid Altaria counter is Clefable. Clefable has all-around bulk to handle most sets, can Encore Roosts, can hit it with Ice Beam, is immune to Toxic, can take two Draco Meteors before recovering with Softboiled, etc.
 
Can Clefable take both 2 Specs Draco Meteors and 2 CB Dragon Rushes whilst being able to OHKO back with Ice Beam using the same spread? If so I guess Clefable does count as one. It doesn't even have to worry about passive damage from Spikes/Stealth Rock so Leftovers always counts.

Anyway we are getting way off topic here. The current discussion is whether Articuno should be given a chance in UU.
 
Rotom fails to switch in to Stone Edge, and Hypno and Grumpig don't like it a lot either. Oh yeah, it also wrecks non-Normal Flying-types. Earthquake hurts Muk and Nidoking/Nidoqueen.
Too bad for some reason near everyone seems intent on using Close Combat alongside Mach Punch despite all better judgement for god knows what reason. Also who. the. hell. uses Earthquake on Top? Ground/Fighting gives some of the most redundant coverage ever.

Besides as stated, Top does absolutely nothing against Claydol, no matter what set.

How so? It's offensively inferior to every other fighting-type in UU, unless you count the improved power of Focus Punch...
This is a pretty silly statement since it already has a higher base attack than Top alone. Throw in the fact you've absolutely neglected its access to boosted elemental punches and Agility.

It hits virtually everything for super effective, how exactly is that offensively inferior?

There is also a case for Altaria. Despite mediocre 70 base offenses it can hit incredibly hard with an unresisted Dragon/Ground combo on both sides of the spectrum; Specs Draco Meteor/HP Ground on the special side, Dragon Dance + Dragon Rush/Earthquake on the physical side.
Incredibly hard and 70 base offense don't exactly flow very well in the same sentence...

Anything decently bulky isn't even going to begin to feel threatened from that level of offense, Lapras and Cradily instantly come to mind, even Mantine to some extent. The general problems with Choice items should be more than obvious and DD set still has to setup.

Ehh, don't forget that it also has the ability to re-fill its Draco Meteor to full power with Psych Up whenever it wants if it chooses to run something like a Life Orb set.
Though thats really kind of a gimmicky set and technically you could use Haze instead of Psych Up as well.

Being able to 2HKO with HP Ice isn't enough as Altaria can simply Roost off the damage
Somehow, I think Altaria needs to be worried if its being forced to do nothing but Roost.
 
I'm pretty sure there's a lot of pokemon that can take on DD altaria. After one DD, max attack, adamant, life orbed, it hits 510 attack. Pitiful. A choice bander with 339 attack can reach this power very easily... stuff like Hitmonchan/Lee , Aerodactyl, Primape, etc. And they don't have to set up as their counter switches in.

With Choice Band, it hits 393 attack. A few pokemon in UU have more attack than this naturally. While it is annoying and can sweep you if you lack sturdy ice beamers, Altaria isn't really too strong for UU. Once again, 262 attack... crap.
 
I'm pretty sure there's a lot of pokemon that can take on DD altaria. After one DD, max attack, adamant, life orbed, it hits 510 attack. Pitiful. A choice bander with 339 attack can reach this power very easily... stuff like Hitmonchan/Lee , Aerodactyl, Primape, etc. And they don't have to set up as their counter switches in.

With Choice Band, it hits 393 attack. A few pokemon in UU have more attack than this naturally. While it is annoying and can sweep you if you lack sturdy ice beamers, Altaria isn't really too strong for UU. Once again, 262 attack... crap.
I never suggested Altaria should be moved to BL, nobody did. That would be absurd as Altaria is in no way unbalancing in UU. All I said was that it comes very close to having no true counters in the sense that a Pokemon is 100% capable of dealing with any set, which is no bad thing IMO. You're right, a lot of stuff can deal with DD Altaria quite easily, its just that very few of them like taking a Specs Draco Meteor to the face, that is all.

Now, can we please drop the subject of Altaria and get back to the main discussion. As I have already said, I reckon Articuno ought to be given a test in UU. I want to hear what more of you think and why.
 
Altaria is taken down with Clefable rather easily, so why are you saying "it has no true counter"? Specs Draco Meteor does surprisingly little damage to Bold Clefable even, enough to Softboiled in Altaria's face while it's left with -4 SpA. DD sets are Encored, then stalled and Ice Beamed if they chose Dragon Rush, or swapped out to a set-up Pokemon if they chose Roost. CB versions ar eunable to 2HKO Clefable while Clefable can Softboiled stall to regain HP before hitting it with a 2HKO Ice Beam.
 
I think a more solid Altaria counter is Clefable. Clefable has all-around bulk to handle most sets, can Encore Roosts, can hit it with Ice Beam, is immune to Toxic, can take two Draco Meteors before recovering with Softboiled, etc.
Lapras. Excellent defenses, and the ability to either scare it away, or kill it with Ice Shard.
 
I'm actually really tempted to let Articuno loose in UU. I never realized how bad that thing's movepool really is. Seriously, they couldn't give it Air Slash like they did for Moltres?

Yeah, Stealth Rock is really dangerous for Articuno, and basically forces the team to have a spinner if he's on it. His defenses are good, but it's just that he can't really do anything besides stall and possibly phaze with his terrible typing. Honestly, only 2 resistances (to types pokemon hardly ever attack with in UU), and the Ground immunity (removed if it Roosts too quickly) is very poor, and IMO, it overrides the guy's defenses. Having a weakness to 3 common attacking types in UU (steel isn't common enough to warrant mention), with one of them being 4x really doesn't help to compensate.

Articuno's offensive stats aren't all that bad, but then when you look at his movepool, there really isn't much to use them with. On the special side, it has Ice Beam, Hidden Power, Water Pulse, Ancientpower, Blizzard and Extrasensory. Not only does it not have double STAB on the special side, but all of its unSTAB moves are extremely low in power, very poor. On the physical side, it at least gets double STAB with Avalanche/Ice Shard, Fly/Aerial Ace/Pluck (Fly isn't bad for Pressure-stalling), U-Turn and Steel Wing as the only good mentions. As you can see, both offensive movepools are really poor.

Articuno has a very low chance of doing anything to the Rock/Steels since it really can't touch them, even with Toxic, and they can strike back on his 4x weakness to Rock with their STAB moves. Bastiodon can even Taunt Arty, forcing him to attack for very low damage while Bastiodon finishes him off.

It can't do anything to all the Water/Ice pokemon in UU such as Lapras, Dewgong, Cloyster and Walrein. They all 4x resist his main STAB, and all Articuno can do to them is Roar.

Arty's in a lot of trouble if it runs into Steelix, who can not only Taunt him, but can also end him with Stone Edge, or severely damage him with STAB Iron Head.

Hell, even Mawile gives it problems, resisting everything it can do, Taunting it, allowing Mawile to set up and Baton Pass, or to just dish out some pain with Iron Head.

Bibarel can Taunt the birdie, Super Fang to chip off enough health and then kill him with Return or Waterfall, while resisting his STAB, and not taking much from the other moves.

Froslass can Taunt Arty before he even gets the chance to Roost off any damage, and it can either go all out with attack against Articuno, or just set up Spikes in its face without fear of getting phazed.

Exploud can't even get phazed by Articuno's Roar, and thanks to its huge HP, it doesn't take a huge amount of damage from Arti's attacks, especially considering Articuno needs to invest a boatload of EVs in defenses. Exploud has Overheat and Flamethrower as well as Rock Slide to deal lots of damage to Articuno. On top of that, Exploud can also Taunt it to prevent recovery.

There's also Grumpig who will take almost nothing from Articuno's special attacks, can Taunt him, or just take advantage of Articuno's liking for Toxic and Magic Coat it back at him.

Do you guys kind of see what I'm getting at here? Articuno has good stats, but his awful movepool totally kills him, because it makes him only do the stalling job. The stalling job isn't even done particularly well, however, because of his terrible typing and the 4x Stealth Rock weakness. Pretty much any Taunter will have an easy time with him as long as they don't have a huge weakness to one of his attacks, though it doesn't have much type diversity in them anyway. It can't touch any kind of Steel type, any Water type, and if it can't phaze something out or recover its health, it's in a lot of trouble.

I personally don't think it'll be a big threat, even in UU, but this is just my opinion.
 
Somehow, I think Altaria needs to be worried if its being forced to do nothing but Roost.

In the specific instance of LO DD Altaria vs. HP Ice Wormadam:

Altaria used Dragon Dance
Wormadam-S used HP Ice! (Altaria at 42%)

Alt used Roost (at 92%)
WS used HP Ice (Altaria at 64%)

Alt used Roost (100%)
WS used HP Ice (Altaria at 71%)

Alt used Dragon Dance
WS used HP Ice (Altaria at 13%)

--Repeat--

It would need to have both Toxic and HP Ice to stop Altaria, or have a decent SA investment (and Altaria no SD investment). With both at 0/0 HP Ice does 50-60% damage to Altaria, and the same PP as Roost. As shown above, Altaria does not need to Roost every turn. With Leftovers instead of LO, Wormadam-S' prospects of KOing Altaria are pretty slim, it needs a CH on a non-Roost turn.
 
Articuno has a very low chance of doing anything to the Rock/Steels since it really can't touch them, even with Toxic, and they can strike back on his 4x weakness to Rock with their STAB moves. Bastiodon can even Taunt Arty, forcing him to attack for very low damage while Bastiodon finishes him off.

ALL the Rock/Steel types can learn Taunt btw, not just Bastiodon.

Anyway great post Bologo, not because I agree with you but because of your clear sound reasoning and justification of your opinion.
 
As shown above, Altaria does not need to Roost every turn. With Leftovers instead of LO, Wormadam-S' prospects of KOing Altaria are pretty slim, it needs a CH on a non-Roost turn.
Thanks, I just assumed the 2HKO thrown around the thread was correct, seems they completely neglected Lefties. Honestly I couldn't be bothered checking because I don't take Wormadam seriously at all. >_>
 
Ehh, I wasn't assuming that Altaria had Lefties, because it sounded like the offensive threats were the ones that supposedly had no counters. If Altaria is using an offensive set without something like Life Orb or Choice Specs, it's not going to hurt anything.

I assumed 0/0 for defenses since we were dealing with the offensive ones, and that's what Choice Specs/Life Orb variants would usually use. Remember, I did mention in my post that "The more defensive sets are much easier to counter with other pokemon anyway." The defensive Altarias are incredibly easy to deal with.
 
I run a defensive Dragon Dance Altaria, I just sacrifice Speed for HP. That being said, the best counter to the thing is still Lapras with Ice Shard.

Also, I second the "Articuno for UU" argument.
 
I never suggested Altaria should be moved to BL, nobody did. That would be absurd as Altaria is in no way unbalancing in UU. *snip*

Now, can we please drop the subject of Altaria and get back to the main discussion. As I have already said, I reckon Articuno ought to be given a test in UU. I want to hear what more of you think and why.

Sorry, I clicked last page and saw all this "who can handle Altaria" stuff so I assumed it was being dicussed for BL.

I'm all up for testing Articuno... it's super cool (pun intended) and anything that can take some STABed Ice Beams I think can handle it. He wouldn't overcentralize, I suppose it'd be more an issue of if he would be too hard to take down.

Hitmons look to be good counters with their nice special defense and Stone Edge. There's also the abundance of fire types in UU.
 
Just because Entei has low usage doesn't mean that it should compete in UU. Entei has little reason to go Physical in UU with it's less than average Physical movepool.

UU simply has no answer to a sub cm set packing Flamethrower and HP Grass aside from Altaria who would need to pack Earthquake to have any real chance of stopping Entei anyway. It also has good defences backed by that large HP stat....my suggestion is to just leave it in BL.

One might want to consider Ninetales then, who may not employ a Subbing strategy like Entei, but who can hypnotize its counters and plot up, becoming a menace far faster as Entei will be. And Ninetales carries a stronger Grass move.
Should Entei be UU and indeed opt for a Sub-CM-Set, then Ninetales interestingly enough becomes kind of a counter, resisting HP Grass, immune to Flamethrower, and able to hit Entei with a HP (I like running HP Water/Ground on Ninetales anyway to dispose of enemy Ninetales already). I can also see the Hitmons being able to take advantage of their SPDEF, and then hitting Entei where it hurts with their Quakes (Lee mainly). Grumpig can CM up with it, abusing Thick Fat to take lol damage from its Fire attacks, firing back with his Psychic. Other pokes with initial good SP DEF can launch an assault on Entei comfortably, seeing as how Entei will need a CM or two up first.
Some other potentional counters are:
Muk (Won't take much from Entei's CM-Less assaults, can hit from the physical side)
Lopunny (Has nice Sp DEF, can outspeed and trick Entei)
Mantine (Although admittedly, he can't do much if Entei is already CM'd up)
Camerupt (Needs to come in quickly and start Quaking to stop him)

Admittedly, you must prevent AT ALL TIMES that Entei gets a few CM's in, so its probably prefered to hit it on its Physical side. Fortunately, its SRock weakness and lack of solid recovery means it will have troubles staying in for an extended period of time. Its weaks to Water, Ground and Rock do it no favors either.
I should probably do some damage calculations, no?

Oh, and theres another point. Entei's EV spread will likely make it have 101 HP Subs. Then, it will want enough speed to at least get a speed tie with Ninetales and friends, meaning Max EV investment there. Being outsped by Ninetales will only mean an early snooze for the dog. And where are you going to put the remaining EV's? Sp ATK so you can hit off the bat? DEF to take physical hits slightly better?
 
Oh, and theres another point. Entei's EV spread will likely make it have 101 HP Subs.
Not really...101 subs have lost their usefulness in D/P.

And theres a pretty excellent set of reasons why Entei's usuage is so low and why its not really cut for UU.

1) Arcanine. They're basically equal except Entei gets Stone Edge in exchange for a retarded ability. In every scenario you could use Entei, Arcanine will always edge it out because of Intimidate or Flash Fire. However Entei can still Will O'Wisp...

2) Its BL. Not exactly going to be seeing use when its in limbo.

3) Ninetales can actually be stopped cold in UU. Entei? Not so much since most of those said counters are weak to Stone Edge, including Ninetales itself. Mixed CM Entei is actually extremely extremely viable in UU since there actually isn't anything which can wall it and even less that outspeeds it.

4) I'll say it again, Earthquake is redundant on a Hitmon. Yes, even Lee. Theres just nothing it does for them that Stone Edge/<insert fighting attack> doesn't coupled with some other random coverage move.

5) I really REALLY doubt theres anything out there that enjoys CM Lava Plumes raining down on them unless they are Fire types. The damage may be dealable with, but like hell that high burn chance will be.

6) Specs or LO Entei with Overheat is quite terrifying. In the end the real threat here is Entei actually has multiple options but doesn't really suffer from 4 move syndrome like most.



-Re: Articuno-

Seems alot of people like the idea of Articuno in UU and I'm probably the only one with reservations about it. Mainly since I tried out a U-Turn/Tailwind variation of Articuno quite a while ago and it was actually quite devastating in OU. It just kept coming in, hitting or running and setting up some <insert devastating powerhouse> with the temporary speed boost. Stealth Rock actually didn't bother it that much contrary to belief and the fact I had a Rapid Spinner too...
 
Seems alot of people like the idea of Articuno in UU and I'm probably the only one with reservations about it.

Actually you're not, but as I rarely play UU now, and would rather see this tier finalised so work can be begin on the lower tiers I'm not going to be objecting to anything anymore.
 
Seems alot of people like the idea of Articuno in UU and I'm probably the only one with reservations about it. Mainly since I tried out a U-Turn/Tailwind variation of Articuno quite a while ago and it was actually quite devastating in OU. It just kept coming in, hitting or running and setting up some <insert devastating powerhouse> with the temporary speed boost. Stealth Rock actually didn't bother it that much contrary to belief and the fact I had a Rapid Spinner too...

To be fair, Pidgeot can do U-turn and Tailwind too, and it doesn't have as many weaknesses as Arty has.
 
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