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DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)
- Thread starter Phuquoph
- Start date
Earthquake isn't totally redundant on the hitmons. It does hit the nidos while the fighting/rock attacks are being resisted. Nidos are pretty good in UU so it pays to be able to hit them. Earthquake also hits harder than close combat on fire and electric types and in situations where you end up 2HKOing with both attacks and don't want the defense drops.
It probably isn't the worth the moveslot on hitmontop or hitmonchan but it has its uses on hitmonlee.
Ninetales will never function well as an Entei counter unless you as you mentioned include HP Water or HP Ground on it's set (which is hardly something you would consider common or even necessary in normal UU play) as well as Nasty Plot to try to bypass Entei's Calm Minds. As far as i'm concerned it would be just another gimmick one would have to employ to try to take on Entei in UU as you will have no use for either Hidden Power except when trying to hit other Ninetales and Entei .
As for Grumpig, sure you can call a CM set a counter but you have to remember there is still always the 30% Chance to be burned from Lava Plume which will severly limit Grumpigs ability to stop Entei after a CM war which an encounter between the two would most likely result in.
And as for the Hitmons, i'd never consider them counters as Entei 2HKOs standard Hitmonlee and Hitmonchan after a CM and Hitmontop takes 41%-49% and this is just from the 80 base power Lava Plume which already puts them on shaky ground as they are not faster than Entei, and they then still have to look out for that 30% Burn chance. Then there is still the option of Entei running Flamethrower or Fire Blast on it's set which will 2hko even standard Hitmontop without fail.
Camerupt and Muk can be considered decent enough counters however Muk still has to look out for that 30% Burn chance, and also has to hope that it doesn't miss with that 70% accurate Gunk Shot since that is the only move it has that is going to be breaking Entei's Sub and if he gets Burned he won't even be doing that.
Lopunny and Mantine are jokes, since Lopunny can't really do much aside from Trick which Entei can easily switch out of and Mantine cannot even break Entei's Sub with STAB Surf unless it rolls max damage after that first CM. Definitely not what i would consider counters.
If you take a look through the UU tier there isn't honestly much of anything that can come in and hit it on the Physical side.
Just for reference, the Ev spread i was using is listed below.
Entei @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 132 HP / 252 Spd / 124 SAtk
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Lava Plume / Flamethrower / Fire Blast
Sorry to go a bit off-topic but something Lyfsaho recently mentioned in the Wobbuffet thread got me thinking. Weezing is now BL and as of yet nobody has given it any consideration for a movedown to UU. I haven't either, but that's only because for some reason I have always thought of it as an OU Pokemon. However if you look at what it can actually do it doesn't seem all that threatening, and could actually help to balance a few things in UU. Just hear me out please.
From a defensive standpoint, Weezing is rather unique as being an almost complete full stop against any physical Fighting type not part Psychic thanks to pure Poison typing and Levitate. However, when you consider the state of UU at the moment, with Hitmonchan and Primeape having no true counter, Hitmonlee causing potential havoc against teams without Claydol, and Hitmontop everywhere, is this really a bad thing? I think not, especially when you consider its ineptitute at dealing with special attacks with a 70 base special defense. Many Pokemon in UU such as Ninetales, Camerupt, Claydol, Grumpig etc can come in quite easily against any Weezing set and instantly threaten, possibly getting a boost in the process.
On the offensive side of things, Weezing's physical movepool is awful, with Explosion the one standout attack. Its special movepool is rather better (Sludge Bomb, T-Bolt, Flamethrower, Shadow Ball etc) but nothing amazing, and its STAB is horrible to be fair. Then look at the stats; 90 and 85 respectively. Decent but unspectacular. Given that Weezing needs at least max HP and a +Defense nature to do its main job, it won't be hurting many things any time soon.
Well that's all I have time to mention for now, but I hope this can promote some discussion on its UU viability. And remember, anything it can do in OU is completely irrelevant to this discussion.
From a defensive standpoint, Weezing is rather unique as being an almost complete full stop against any physical Fighting type not part Psychic thanks to pure Poison typing and Levitate. However, when you consider the state of UU at the moment, with Hitmonchan and Primeape having no true counter, Hitmonlee causing potential havoc against teams without Claydol, and Hitmontop everywhere, is this really a bad thing? I think not, especially when you consider its ineptitute at dealing with special attacks with a 70 base special defense. Many Pokemon in UU such as Ninetales, Camerupt, Claydol, Grumpig etc can come in quite easily against any Weezing set and instantly threaten, possibly getting a boost in the process.
On the offensive side of things, Weezing's physical movepool is awful, with Explosion the one standout attack. Its special movepool is rather better (Sludge Bomb, T-Bolt, Flamethrower, Shadow Ball etc) but nothing amazing, and its STAB is horrible to be fair. Then look at the stats; 90 and 85 respectively. Decent but unspectacular. Given that Weezing needs at least max HP and a +Defense nature to do its main job, it won't be hurting many things any time soon.
Well that's all I have time to mention for now, but I hope this can promote some discussion on its UU viability. And remember, anything it can do in OU is completely irrelevant to this discussion.
I've considered Weezing, but the honest truth was I thought it was still low OU, I didn't even know it had gone into BL. After actually checking it, I see its an extremely high BL and basically hovering just a few places out of OU.
I always thought Weezing is perfectly viable for UU so I'd have absolutely no qualms against it. The only other BL I'd say I've seriously considered besides Weezing which has gone unmentioned so far is Porygon2.
I always thought Weezing is perfectly viable for UU so I'd have absolutely no qualms against it. The only other BL I'd say I've seriously considered besides Weezing which has gone unmentioned so far is Porygon2.
I'll admit i've never even thought about Weezing in UU and it does seem like it would balance out some things in UU such as Leafeon and the fighters you mentioned without proving to be too much of a offensive threat in it self, doesn't seem like a bad choice for UU in all honesty.
I also thought i would post this to keep everyone up to date with what is being discussed.
I also thought i would post this to keep everyone up to date with what is being discussed.
I'd definitely oppose to allowing Shedinja in UU. The lack of auto-weather makes him even harder to stop, and there's no guarantee Stealth Rocks will be down (even then, we have Focus Sash). Shedinja just renders so many Pokemon obselete unless they purposely use a Fire, Dark, Ghost, Rock, or Flying attack in their moveslot.
It really just makes it a lot more difficult for many Pokemon, making some (like Probopass, Arbok, Politoad, and Stantler -- all of which I've used) set-up fodder against Shedinja unless they go out of their way for moves with redundant type coverage or otherwise pointless uses. So many strategies are rendered obselete, so many Pokemon are left useless unless they pack one of five types.
What are decent Shedinja counters?
- Aggron
- Steelix (Stone Edge)
- Torkoal
- Sandslash (Stone Edge)
- Quagsire (Stone Edge)
That's all I can think of off the top of my head. Of those, only Torkoal can take a Will-o-Wisp, and only Steelix is common.
It really just makes it a lot more difficult for many Pokemon, making some (like Probopass, Arbok, Politoad, and Stantler -- all of which I've used) set-up fodder against Shedinja unless they go out of their way for moves with redundant type coverage or otherwise pointless uses. So many strategies are rendered obselete, so many Pokemon are left useless unless they pack one of five types.
What are decent Shedinja counters?
- Aggron
- Steelix (Stone Edge)
- Torkoal
- Sandslash (Stone Edge)
- Quagsire (Stone Edge)
That's all I can think of off the top of my head. Of those, only Torkoal can take a Will-o-Wisp, and only Steelix is common.
In addition they are Bastiodon, Camerupt, Clefable, Drapion, Glaceon, Magcargo, Nido's, Scyther, Altaria and i could probaly list a lot more. Then there is always the prevalent Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes along with the fact that every other poke in UU tends to pack Toxic. With all these I can't really see Shedinja being that much of a threat in UU.
lol, ok here's why I'm against that:
Regigigas
Spiritomb
Arcanine
Medicham
Aerodactyl
Rhyperior
Exeggutor
Slowbro
Staraptor
Weezing
Ludicolo
Mismagius
Zangoose
Slaking
Hariyama
Alakazam
Regirock
Articuno
Slowking
Lickilicky
Azumarill
Tauros
Empoleon
Mesprit
Ursaring
Umbreon
Moltres
Tangrowth
Venusaur
Honchkrow
Shaymin
Blaziken
Sceptile
Feraligatr
Raikou
Crobat
Porygon2
Registeel
Ambipom
Charizard
Magmortar
Typhlosion
Pinsir
Rampardos
Regice
Shedinja
Roserade
Houndoom
Torterra
Miltank
Smeargle
Uxie
Floatzel
Entei
Marowak
Flygon
Espeon
Gardevoir
That's 59, 59 very valid threats added over into the 100+ UU pokes that exist right now, first off that's an extremely huge undertaking, and we dont have the players for that. Secondly, we already have a large amount of UUs that go unused, if this goes forth the entire UU tier with a few exceptions will ever see use. Why use Dodrio (or even LOL Fearow) when there's Staraptor?
And besides, what will happen when this new tier has unbalancing pokes? Where do we put them? In OU? Out of 150+ pokes, a new tier's gonna pop up either over or under this one.
Personally i dont see the need to go through Obi's proposal for UU. As Slickee mentioned they just arent enough common UU players to go through all that and how much more of a balanced UU metagame are we really going to achieve by doing it anyway. In my opnion we'd probaly end up with more or less what we have now anyway.
The pokemon up now for discussion are problaly the last few that can even be moved down without causing too much of a stir or upsetting UU. I've glanced through the BL list constantly and nothing stands out anymore as something that could possibly have a place in UU. If we were to undertake something like that proposal it would most likely end up just being a big waste of time.
The pokemon up now for discussion are problaly the last few that can even be moved down without causing too much of a stir or upsetting UU. I've glanced through the BL list constantly and nothing stands out anymore as something that could possibly have a place in UU. If we were to undertake something like that proposal it would most likely end up just being a big waste of time.
Whose to say that a freash start wouldn't encourage more players?
Besides if NFE's are unbanned, 59 is going to seem like a drop in the ocean compared to the many hundreds that will need considering for tier placement.
I've made similar arguments, however until a tier/s is created below this a significant number of pokemon will go unused irrespective. Everytime something new is brought down, something sees less useage anyway so why not just get it over with?
That argument can be made within the existing environment anyway. Besides people will use what they want anyways ... just look at the recent surge in NFE teams on the ladder.
BL wouldn't be eradicated as a tier ... its just that nothing starts there. If something is proved to be too centralising it would be moved back up ...
I don't seee how we can move another lot without reconsidering whether their inclusion has any consequences regarding the things that were previously banned or dismissed ...
Besides having played UU recently I'm beginning to think that moving Steelix and co down was premature ... in my recent battling experience the balance of the game seems to have shifted significantly to being far more stall based , adding the likes of Venusaur and Weezing and Milktank seem like they would be cementing this further.
Personally I'd never have considered most of the things currently being discussed, but there we are ... however whose to say that Entei and Torterra which see far less useage than Froslass and Hitmontop are not more representative of UU pokemon?
I'm in favor of moving weezing down to UU. It would definitely balance some of the more dangerous threats right now. I'm talking about stuff like SD versions of leafeon and drapion. These pokemon are surprisingly hard to counter properly. They may have counters I've overlooked as it's mostly based off personal experience so tell me if I miss something.
Leafeon: Most are running support sets these days but I see the SD sweeper and BP sets as infinitely more deadly. There are very few physical walls in UU that resists grass and are also able to hurt leafeon. Some pokemon can take a few hits like steelix but fail to do anything back given its physical bulk. Should something that can actually hurt it come in like vileplume or probopass, it's usually fast enough to BP out and you can suddenly find yourself on the receiving end of a sweep.
Drapion: Again, the SD set can be very unpredictable when sending something in. A set with Night Slash/Earthquake/Ice Fang can hit everything hard after a SD (steelix is 2HKOed by EQ while it fails to OHKO back with EQ of its own). Your best bet is probably to send in something that is neutral to all its attacks. But then there's always the 25% chance of sniper night slash with scope lens critting your wall and killing it anyway. Maniac you were on the receiving end of this. Given its speed and bulk, your walls are always going to be outsped and 2HKOed while failing to kill it before it kills you. If you try to send in a something faster and fragile while it SDs, it'll still probably kill you before you can kill it because of its single weakness and physical bulk. That single weakness being mostly physical doesn't help either.
Anyway, after saying that, I feel weezing could help with these threats. Plus it doesn't hurt to have more counters for the fighting types like the hitmons and toxicroak.
Leafeon: Most are running support sets these days but I see the SD sweeper and BP sets as infinitely more deadly. There are very few physical walls in UU that resists grass and are also able to hurt leafeon. Some pokemon can take a few hits like steelix but fail to do anything back given its physical bulk. Should something that can actually hurt it come in like vileplume or probopass, it's usually fast enough to BP out and you can suddenly find yourself on the receiving end of a sweep.
Drapion: Again, the SD set can be very unpredictable when sending something in. A set with Night Slash/Earthquake/Ice Fang can hit everything hard after a SD (steelix is 2HKOed by EQ while it fails to OHKO back with EQ of its own). Your best bet is probably to send in something that is neutral to all its attacks. But then there's always the 25% chance of sniper night slash with scope lens critting your wall and killing it anyway. Maniac you were on the receiving end of this. Given its speed and bulk, your walls are always going to be outsped and 2HKOed while failing to kill it before it kills you. If you try to send in a something faster and fragile while it SDs, it'll still probably kill you before you can kill it because of its single weakness and physical bulk. That single weakness being mostly physical doesn't help either.
Anyway, after saying that, I feel weezing could help with these threats. Plus it doesn't hurt to have more counters for the fighting types like the hitmons and toxicroak.
Just a quick word.
Leafeon does have a definite counter you've overlooked, Torkoal. It easily scares off Leafeon while taking lol% damage and can Will O'Wisp any possible switch in Leafeon BP's off to. There is Ninetales as well who again can easily come in scaring with faster speed and resistance and Hypnosis Leafeon's switch in.
Drapion is also a counter, I'm surprised you didn't notice that and Toxicroak for non AA versians who just comes in and generally causes havoc. Arbok can come in not only Intimidating Leafeon but able to also paralyze any BP'd switch in along with generally any Poison type.
Leafeon does have a definite counter you've overlooked, Torkoal. It easily scares off Leafeon while taking lol% damage and can Will O'Wisp any possible switch in Leafeon BP's off to. There is Ninetales as well who again can easily come in scaring with faster speed and resistance and Hypnosis Leafeon's switch in.
Drapion is also a counter, I'm surprised you didn't notice that and Toxicroak for non AA versians who just comes in and generally causes havoc. Arbok can come in not only Intimidating Leafeon but able to also paralyze any BP'd switch in along with generally any Poison type.
Just build a UU team and go play some people and get experience and most of all have fun with whatever you find quirky.
I think he meant that there is a general lack of Pokemon that can both comfortably counter Leafeon and completely nullify any passing attempt it may look to get away with. In that regard Weezing works much better than anything else currently in UU and would therefore be a welcome addition. Bulky Arbok sounds interesting though, never really thought about that, although it does seem a tad overspecialized.
Eh, wasn't there a thread where somebody wrote up on the threats? Or am I going crazy?
Edit: Just thought of something crazy. Is Regice too overpowered for UU? Weakness to Stealth Rock, the amount of Fighters, and things like Ninetails would keep it in check. It would also give players another option to use to wall threats like Glaceon and Jynx. Hitmonlee comes to my mind right now as a definitive counter. Immune to Thunderwave and takes little from Regice's attacks. Also Steelix counters pretty much every version.
Edit: Just thought of something crazy. Is Regice too overpowered for UU? Weakness to Stealth Rock, the amount of Fighters, and things like Ninetails would keep it in check. It would also give players another option to use to wall threats like Glaceon and Jynx. Hitmonlee comes to my mind right now as a definitive counter. Immune to Thunderwave and takes little from Regice's attacks. Also Steelix counters pretty much every version.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40306 is the link for that thread.
Sorry, but Regice really just can't be in UU. Unlike Articuno, it's actually really hard to kill. Steelix counters no versions because Steelix still takes a crapload from Ice Beam if Regice just invests a bit of Special Attack (which isn't uncommon for Regice).
I don't really understand how Hitmonlee takes very little damage from Regice's attacks. It's not as if Regice doesn't have the ability to invest in Special Attack. Hitmonlee pretty much never has any defensive EVs, so even the good special defense is busted by the awful HP, meaning that he still takes a lot from STAB Ice Beams.
The Rest/Sleep Talk version is killer when the guy's packing Charge Beam, because then he doesn't just become really hard to kill, but everything else becomes easy to kill.
Remember, Regice is about the 4th best special wall in the entire game, behind Blissey, Chansey, and Sandstorm Shuckle. That, and his physical defense isn't something to scoff at either at a respectable base 100. If Ninetales tries to attack him without a Nasty Plot using an STAB Flamethrower from 252 SAtk, it's a 4HKO on 252 HP/252 SDef Regice with Leftovers. If Ninetales tries to Hypnosis him, it can Sleep Talk. If it tries to Nasty Plot against Regice, well too bad, because Regice carries Psych Up quite a bit as well. Ninetales is a really shaky counter IMO.
The only really good counter out there in UU for Regice is Hitmontop, and even he has to watch out for the Charge Beaming Rest/Sleep Talker Regice. Sorry, but I believe it needs to stay in BL.
I don't see what's wrong with Ninetales Nasty Plotting up against Regice. What's Regice going to do? Worst case scenario, it'll Focus Blast after Psyching Up, which means it's taking a ton of damage from Flamethrower in between. Remember, IF Regice has those two moves and a ton of SpD EVs (chances are, it'll invest in Def over SpD)
Nevertheless, I agree with Bologo. Taking only 25% from SR rather than 50% is key.
Nevertheless, I agree with Bologo. Taking only 25% from SR rather than 50% is key.
I'm in this boat. I'm waiting to see if / when this is implemented (and I'm waiting to do a 'push' to get that happening for a UU ladder on Shoddy so we can collect statistics). I'm looking forward to some UUing.
