DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)

[xcfrisco]

Is it? Smogon's philosophy states

"the "UU metagame" is an attempt to give a more interesting look at Pokémon that may not compete well with the stronger Pokémon of the game;"

The UU (and NU) metagames exist to mitigate this problem by creating an arena where lesser Pokémon can be used while still following the competitive ideal, but this is not perfect,

Their is a certain ambiguity in both statements that lead themselves to multiple readings ... until the metagame has been fully explored any statement including the one you've just made is perspective ...

Wow I wasn't aware that was the exact wording.

I think the mods need to weigh in on this matter if they want to make Smogon the premier competitive pokemon site. I agree that the above wording of the purpose of the UU tier is entirely too ambiguous. in actuality, you could switch "UU" with OU and "stronger pokemon" with Ubers and we would get the exact same ambiguous purpose for OU tier.

Not exactly ideal is it? I think if more mods weighed-in on the matter, UU would become A LOT more popular and would establish solid credible grounds for UU as a tier.

 

[ODDish]

I wasn't suggesting that the above statements be taken as smogon's "definition" of UU ...
the point behind their inclusion was to question your definition of what UU should be, by pointing out that the ambiguity in these statements could just as easily support other perspectives.

 

[Phuquoph]

Wow I wasn't aware that was the exact wording.

I think the mods need to weigh in on this matter if they want to make Smogon the premier competitive pokemon site. I agree that the above wording of the purpose of the UU tier is entirely too ambiguous. in actuality, you could switch "UU" with OU and "stronger pokemon" with Ubers and we would get the exact same ambiguous purpose for OU tier.

Not exactly ideal is it? I think if more mods weighed-in on the matter, UU would become A LOT more popular and would establish solid credible grounds for UU as a tier.

What do you mean "if we want make Smogon the premier competitive pokemon site"? We already are. Are you trying to tell us this is not the case?

That isn't meant to be taken as a complete definition of what UU is. The document is a general idea of what Smogon is as a whole. The short descriptions of the tiers are to there to introduce new users to the concept of tiering in general.

 

[xcfrisco]

What do you mean "if we want make Smogon the premier competitive pokemon site"? We already are. Are you trying to tell us this is not the case?

That isn't meant to be taken as a complete definition of what UU is. The document is a general idea of what Smogon is as a whole. The short descriptions of the tiers are to there to introduce new users to the concept of tiering in general.

I take back that statement in realizing its retarded. I think here's a better description of what I feel.

If Smogon should set the standard for tier lists in the competitive pokemon community, the same logic and principles should be used for each tier's establishment.

I guess I'm a little confused as to what exactly OU and UU stand for. Is there anywhere on this site that explicitly state "OU is this..." and "UU is this..."?

 

[Chou Toshio]

Making UU like OU" is not a viable arguments because it is SUPER-SUBJECTIVE. "Wow I think Wobbufett and Deoxys-E make OU like Ubers" so they shouldn't be allowed. See how terrible that argument is? If a pokemon isn't broken in that tier, it should be allowed in.

No, your parallel is terrible because Ubers, unlike UU and OU, is a pseudo-tier, so no one cares if OU resembles it or not because it's just a list of pokemon banned from OU. UU on the other hand is meant to be its own balanced tier, and it's own game experience-- which is why it makes sense to make it different from OU if possible.

 

[ODDish]

UU on the other hand is meant to be its own balanced tier, and it's own game experience-- which is why it makes sense to make it different from OU if possible.

With the signficant reconceptualisation of "UU" on its way, and the lalmost certain creation of tiers below it, perhaps, as a community, we should take this opportunity to consider what we actually want for those tiers ...

 

[xcfrisco]

A modest proposal on what UU means:

I was re-reading the posts in the policy review thread, and I really liked Obi ideas of letting in everything not OU to be tested into an UU metagame.

So what if we did this, this is merely speculation. What if we allowed every pokemon not OU (NFE's included) to be potentially considered for UU, and it turned out to be a somewhat balanced metagame with around 40 pokemon or so? Would this metagame, with a lot of people (theoretically) using Chansey's, Raikou's, Rhydon's, Torterra, Alakazam, maybe even kadabra, etc, be UU instead? Presumably, the next balanced tier below OU?

Here are come all the "i don't want to play OU-lite" players. But, just wait a second. Then, wouldn't the next balanced tier below the one i just proposed, (we can call this third tier anything, i'll just use NU for now), wouldn't that metagame fulfill more current UU players' desire to play a metagame with as little resemblance to OU as possible? As a matter of fact, it would probably be just like UU is right now except with a different name.

Is that so crazy to try out or consider?

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

A modest proposal on what UU means:

I was re-reading the posts in the policy review thread, and I really liked Obi ideas of letting in everything not OU to be tested into an UU metagame.

So what if we did this, this is merely speculation. What if we allowed every pokemon not OU (NFE's included) to be potentially considered for UU, and it turned out to be a somewhat balanced metagame with around 40 pokemon or so? Would this metagame, with a lot of people (theoretically) using Chansey's, Raikou's, Rhydon's, Torterra, Alakazam, maybe even kadabra, etc, be UU instead? Presumably, the next balanced tier below OU?

Here are come all the "i don't want to play OU-lite" players. But, just wait a second. Then, wouldn't the next balanced tier below the one i just proposed, (we can call this third tier anything, i'll just use NU for now), wouldn't that metagame fulfill more current UU players' desire to play a metagame with as little resemblance to OU as possible? As a matter of fact, it would probably be just like UU is right now except with a different name.

Is that so crazy to try out or consider?

Not at all, and I'm 100% with you in that regard. I have been since Obi made his proposal.

One thing to note though is this. No matter how big a consensus we reach here at Smogon, there is little that the Smogon staff can do at the moment. The only person who can currently make these proposals a reality is Colin, as Shoddy is the only widely recognized D/P simulator we have.

I am neutral on the whole NFE debate, which means I am happy with whatever happens as long as a new tier is established. However, the longer this neverending dispute has raged on, the more I have been willing to just see Obi's proposal carried out to the letter, meaning everything not Uber/OU thrown in at once. I am still heavily against the inclusion of Snover/Hippopotas, but at least if they are given a try out we can see from actual experience and statistics whether our worst fears are justified instead of constantly arguing back and forth based on pure theory.

 

[Syberia]

A modest proposal on what UU means:

I was re-reading the posts in the policy review thread, and I really liked Obi ideas of letting in everything not OU to be tested into an UU metagame.

So what if we did this, this is merely speculation. What if we allowed every pokemon not OU (NFE's included) to be potentially considered for UU, and it turned out to be a somewhat balanced metagame with around 40 pokemon or so? Would this metagame, with a lot of people (theoretically) using Chansey's, Raikou's, Rhydon's, Torterra, Alakazam, maybe even kadabra, etc, be UU instead? Presumably, the next balanced tier below OU?

Here are come all the "i don't want to play OU-lite" players. But, just wait a second. Then, wouldn't the next balanced tier below the one i just proposed, (we can call this third tier anything, i'll just use NU for now), wouldn't that metagame fulfill more current UU players' desire to play a metagame with as little resemblance to OU as possible? As a matter of fact, it would probably be just like UU is right now except with a different name.

Is that so crazy to try out or consider?

Wouldn't it be appropriate in this case to just make BL into an actual competative tier, and keep UU as UU, instead of trying to create two completely new tiers? Of course this would mean changing a few of the things in BL, etc.

For example, BL would become "OU lite" or whatever you want to call it, with a few changes of course (so, the tier in which Raikou, Kadabra, Chansey, etc. would be allowed), and UU would remain UU, also with a few changes.

 

[Bourbon]

So is scyther banned yet, everyone on Shoddy I have informed that it has been banned says "it's been proposed, but hasn't happened yet".

Yet these same people use Leafeon and Steelix... who have been "proposed" to be moved down.

 

[ODDish]

If you check the tier list you will see that Leafeon and Steelix have actually been moved, where as Scyther is still listed as UU.

Infact Steelix moving down is one of the reasons Scyther hasn't been moved up yet... it was felt that he might go some way toward countering it, and so testing was required.

 

[Bourbon]

Huh. Much as I hate Steelix (i've seen one EVERY match today) I might have to suck it up and get one then.

 

[gengod]

I've been looking at the BL list and I was wondering what people think of including Aerodactyl as well as Venusaur into UU. They honestly don't look like they would cause too much trouble and might actually balance out some of the threats recently added into UU.

In Aerodactly's case all it really has going for it is it's speed. It's attack is pretty mediocre and it doesn't have a any way to boost it outside from Curse which no one would use anyway. Kabutops has a higher attack, coupled with Swords Dance as well as the Swift Swim ability and he currently isnt even being debated for BL, and can arguably provide more of a threat than Aerodactyl can.

Most of the current defensive UU pokemon will cause trouble for Aerodactyl such as Quagsire, Meganium as well as the new additions Steelix and defensively EV'd Leafeons. Then there is the problem of Stealth Rock which will strip Aerodactyl of 25% everytime he switches in. Seem's like a pretty decent candidate for UU in my opnion.

As for Venusaur, it also doesn't seem like it would be much harm adding it to UU, it would most likely just end up as another defensive grasser one could add to their team. It's pretty much a Meganium with an additional type which wont really help it that much defensively although it would qualify as a pretty good Leafeon counter who is pretty much ripping up UU at the moment from what i've seen. Seems like another viable candidate here.

I may or may not be wrong about these pokes and their affect on the UU metagame but i think they surely deserve some discussion.

 

[Forsety]

Aerodactyl isn't actually all that broken for UU realistically speaking, although don't underrate its attack. 105 may be mediocre in OU but its quite more than enough in UU when combined with its 130 speed. It does have some pretty bad defenses and typing no doubt. Most of the time I can kill it with non-effective moves... Heck technically most standard Hitmon's nowadays should always beat Aero in a 1v1 despite type disadvantage.

Though I think the main issue here is that Aerodactyl is very close to the OU cut off mark. Even closer than say Froslass whos already cutting it close as it is. Cases however like Tentacruel who can be both OU and viable for UU at the same time gives extra room for thought.

Venusaur however is actually a tad bit more dangerous in UU. Jumpluff can cause enough havoc as it is in UU with its Sleep Subseed. Venusaur is no slouch in speed either and has bulk + offenses to back it up. Dodrio, Swellow, Clefable and Scyther about make up the only real counters to Venusaur. Leafeon still needs time to settle in, its only been a few days since the downgrade and its really a case of kids with a new toy. I'd actually be more interested in Exeggutor's potential in UU due to its more exploitable weaknesses and slower setup time.


Also a quick standard update as usual to keep track of events.

In Discussion:
Aerodactyl, Venusaur

Banished to BL:
-Feraligatr
-Typhlosion
-Crobat
-Azumarill
-Ursaring
-Slowking
-Mamoswine
-Ambipom
-Pinsir

Borderline UU's: (Ones under careful observation)
-Walrein, Glaceon, Ninetales, Clefable, Scyther, Jynx, Leafeon


BL's moved down to UU:
-Claydol
-Cloyster
-Steelix
-Drapion
-Leafeon
-Jynx


BL's with recommendations for movedown to UU or to be Tested.
(now presented in terms of levels of opposition)
-Shedinja (Low/Average)
-Marowak (Average)
-Regigigas (Average)
-Torterra (High)

BL's considered for testing/movedown but were blocked.
-Empoleon, Houndoom, Milktank, Flygon, Entei

Widely Acceptable NFE's:
-Magmar, Electabuzz, Trapinch, Poliwhirl, Clamperl, Vigoroth, Pikachu

Non-obvious Banned NFEs (AKA, BL):
Snover, Hippopatas

 

[gengod]

Venusaur however is actually a tad bit more dangerous in UU. Jumpluff can cause enough havoc as it is in UU with its Sleep Subseed. Venusaur is no slouch in speed either and has bulk + offenses to back it up. Dodrio, Swellow, Clefable and Scyther about make up the only real counters to Venusaur. I'd actually be more interested in Exeggutor's potential in UU due to its more exploitable weaknesses and slower setup time.

Well if you compare Venusaur to Meganium they aren't really that different. They have the exact same base stats except for Defense and Special Attack where Meganium has 83 base Spatk and 100 Base Def while Venusaur has these stats switched around.

100 Spatk may seem signifigantly higher, but remember Vileplume has that same Spatk and is also generally used defensively. They learn pretty much the same moves as well.

The only real difference i see somewhat in Venusaur's favour is it's Poison typing and Sleep Powder.

Exeggutor is also pretty interesting, I think it's worth testing as well, it doesn't seem over powering as things like Grumpig and Hypno still stop it (even though they have to watch out for explosion) it might also cause a rise in Sunny Day teams to counteract all the Rain Dance teams that are running rampant.

 

[Slickee]

Exeggutor is also pretty interesting, I think it's worth testing as well, it doesn't seem over powering as things like Grumpig and Hypno still stop it (even though they have to watch out for explosion) it might also cause a rise in Sunny Day teams to counteract all the Rain Dance teams that are running rampant.

Eh, I find it hard to believe Grumpig and Hypno completely counter Eggy. Leaf Storm coming off 125 Special Attack, they're gonna be hard pressed to switch into a lot of those. Also put into factor Sleep Powder, Leech Seed, and its base 95 attack and physical moves like Wood Hammer and Explosion.

 

[ODDish]

I suggested Exeggutor in the last thread ... and I think (Deck Knight?) campaigned for Venusaur, however at that time neither suggestion was paritcularly well received ...

 

[eric the espeon]

Copied over from the other thread, these are the things which have fallen solidly into disuse.

Carnivine, Huntail, Corsola, Skuntank, Sunflora, Illumise, Delibird, Ditto, Girafarig, Spinda, Solrock, Pachirisu, Phione, Ariados, Stantler, Pidgeot, Plusle, Swalot, Mawile, Masquerain, Granbull, Minun, Volbeat, Bellossom, Delcatty, Glalie, Unown, Vigoroth, Crawdaunt, Tropius, Beautifly, Fearow, Arbok, Victreebel, Chimecho, Kricketune, Cherrim, Chatot, Farfetch'd, Mothim, Exploud, Wigglytuff, Wailord, Castform, Magcargo, Vespiquen, Wormadam, Whiscash, Luvdisc, Lunatone, Wormadam-S, Wormadam-G, Lumineon, Seviper, Dustox, Ledian, Seaking, Furret, Golem

Extra note about Golem and Granbull they are actually on the edge, a push either way will solidly seal them as low end UU or NU. As it stands they're essentially on the abyss's edge if people don't start using them more.

These are the lowest end UU who are most in danger of falling into NU...

Dewgong*, Beedrill*, Quagsire*, Vileplume*, Xatu*, Clamperl*, Flareon*, Sableye*, Mantine*, Pelipper*, Noctowl*, Dodrio*, Parasect*, Politoed*, Octillery*, Kecleon*, Sudowoodo*, Raticate*

Great! I have been looking for a NU tier list for some time.
A few things, do Crawdaunt (Sharpedo with better defenses and worse speed),Wailord (CS Waterspout and Selfdestruct) and Phione (Hydro-Rest, decent movepool and typeing) really deserve to be on this list?

sorry if this is off-topic.

 

[Mekkah]

I see no real harm in Venusaur if Vileplume is allowed. Venusaur wins stats only by a slight amount (its only significant win is 30 base Speed). Vileplume has Stun Spore and Aromatherapy (which Venusaur does not have), which can be argued as at least as good.

I'd say leave NU alone until it's clear whether UU is going to get a major revamp or not.

 

[Phuquoph]

The purpose of this thread is to discuss BL and UU. Stay on topic and avoid discussion of NU.

I also agree with dropping Venusaur and Aerodactyl down. Exeggutor I'm not so sure about. Specs Leaf Storm is incredibly destructive (and capable of 2HKOing Hypno, Grumpig and Drapion) and Psychic can 1-2HKO everything else.

How about Houndoom and/or Arcanine?

 

[ODDish]

How about Houndoom and/or Arcanine?

There's not a lot of love for Houndoom moving down ... Arcanine, I'm not sure that it has ever been considered.

I'm actually wondering whether it might be worth reconsidering Honchkrow.

Personally I'd like to see some testing done with Aero and Venu before any changes are made.

 

[Gmax]

Why would you send Houndoom down to UU? Its got enough power to take on just about anything there. Since Bliss and TTar don't exist in UU, and Aggron(the only 4x Fight Weak) dies to Fire Blast, it probably won't need HP Fight either, allowing it to go HP Grass to deal with Quagsire etc. Its also pretty fast, and can do some serious damage with or without an NP up.

 

[Deck Knight]

Why on earth are we discussing Aerodactyl for UU? That's insane. It isn't RBY anymore folks, Aerodactyl can actually beat the stuffing out of you, and has been doing so ever since GSC gave it Earthquake.

Among other things Aerodactyl now enjoys that it didn't in ADV (where it was OU btw. >_>):

Stone Edge
Physical Pursuit
Roost
Elemental Fangs
Crunch
Physical Dragon Claw
Stealth Rock

I really don't think it is wise to dial up the speed necessary to outspeed all credible threats (sorry Trode >_>) from 384 (beats Swellow) to 395. Nevermind that Aerodactyl is about 10x better than Swellow because it can randomly chuck Fire Blast at the incoming Steelix and Earthquake the living daylights out of Aggron/Probopass. LO Aerodactyl would be a menace in UU.

As to the Kabutops comparison: Kabutops needs Swords Dance or Rain Dance up to be a big threat to your team. Aerodactyl can start slaughtering you immediately. It outspeeds every non-scarfed pokemon on your team, can quickly kill electrics with Earthquake, can revenge kill with Pursuit, and even has stalling capabilities with Taunt and Roost. UU Rocks don't wall it that well due to Earthquake, it has Crunch for Lunatone/Solrock, and it has Fire Blast for Steelix. While all of these on one set (other than LO) might not be ideal, the fact is Stone Edge/Eathquake/Crunch/Fire Blast is a perfectly legal and viable Aerodactly set that can completely shred most of UU.

Lets also not forget what a terror CB Aerodactyl was in ADV with Double-Edge/Rock Slide/Earthquake/Fire Blast. Rock Slide just got upgraded to Stone Edge.

Aerodactyl is a seriously scary sweeper. I think it's almost worse than Pinsir because you have no way to outspeed it without a Scarf.

 

[Forsety]

A few things, do Crawdaunt (Sharpedo with better defenses and worse speed),Wailord (CS Waterspout and Selfdestruct) and Phione (Hydro-Rest, decent movepool and typeing) really deserve to be on this list?

Its by no means a official or even balanced tier list. Its just a list of observations to give us an idea of how the lower end of UU is looking like right now.

Exeggutor is also pretty interesting, I think it's worth testing as well, it doesn't seem over powering as things like Grumpig and Hypno still stop it (even though they have to watch out for explosion)

Generally speaking I think Shiftry, Scyther or Cacturne counter it better than Grumpig or Hypno. Although Specs Leaf Storm off 125 does worry me...

How about Houndoom and/or Arcanine?

Houndoom is a flat no as special attacks are already much more empowering in UU and special Dark actually rampages through alot.

Arcanine is a possibility though cutting it close. Its less than impressive within OU. but I think it shifts more towards a no for similar reasons to Entei. Theres just not an awful lot in UU that can deal with it, a simple Howl/E-Speed/Flare Blitz/ThunderFang ruins most of UU.

With that said Tauros is another possibility, its certainly lost alot of effectiveness since Advance as I found out recently. Its just a one trick bovine unlike say Miltank which doesn't do an awful lot of justice to its stats. It actually should be considered long before Aerodactyl should be due to lower attack and speed.

Honchkrow is definitely viable for a reconsideration, 71 speed does put it under the standard good 80 speed base for UU and even under Kingler and Absol's 75. Nasty Plot set is actually outclassed by Toxicroak with its STAB Vacuum Wave and Persian/Ninetales with their speed and sleep. Also the recent Drapion/Steelix additions certainly tones down its ability to physical sweep.

However on the other hand, sleep + ground immunity are still two significant resistances. Its HP actually balances out its defenses and it can Roost so its actually rather bulky. Most importantly it may be outclassed in either one area, but its significantly strong at doing mixed roles. Also it hits notably harder with Nasty Plot than anything else, I've been long of opinion special attacks are actually far more powerful than physical in D/P. Lower bases seem to do significantly more than what you'd use for physical and this shows up nowhere more clearly than in UU with the abscence of Blissey.

 

[gengod]

Arcanine is definitely interesting but i'm honestly not sure about it either. It has the potential to be pretty hard to deal with in UU although not as much as you would think with the set Forsety provided as pokemon like Quagsire Aggron and Steelix will wall it without fail. I'm actually more worried about what a mixed set would be able to do.

Crunch, Fire Blast, Hidden Power Grass Dragon Pulse/Extremespeed/Will O Wisp, would be pretty hard to deal with in UU, as its able to 2HKO pretty much all of the walls in UU with this set. It's defences are also pretty good and it is relatively fast, i'm leaning more towards no on this one.

I'm not really for including Honchcrow either, sure it's slow but Specs, CB LO (mixed) or Nasty Plot variants are all viable and all pretty deadly. Sure Steelix and Drapion wall the first set but nothing else can really take a hit and the Special Sets can be pretty hard to deal with due to Honchcrow getting STAB on Dark moves which the best Special Walls in UU are weak to.

Honchcrow isn't the fastest thing around, but it's high HP coupled with Roost do allow it some staying power. I really don't think UU is capable of handling Honchcrow.

As for Aerodactyl, sure it would be pretty much a top tier UU but by no means is any set unstoppable, firstly Aerodactyl can't wall as well in UU due to no boost from Sandstream, and the mixed set you posted although pretty effective runs into an issues with a number of pokemon in UU, examples would be pokemon like Quagsire, Blastoise, Intimidate Hitmontop (even the LO set does pretty well against it due to Bullet Punch), Gastrodon even Granbull walls it pretty well for what he's worth.

And as for comparing it to Kabutops, I think Kabutops is a bigger threat right off the bat to be honest, CB Kabutops hits way harder than CB Aerodactyl and for whats it's worth also has access to a STAB priorety move to make up for it's relatively mediocre speed which really shouldn't be underestimated anyway. 284 is still a pretty decent number for a UU sweeper. Also a LO set from Kabutops comprising of simply Stone Edge, Waterfall, X-Scissor and Aqua Jet can be pretty deadly, maybe not as good as Aero late game due to Aero's higher speed but i seriously think your severly overrating Aerodactyl in that comparison, its a good pokemon but by no means broken in UU.

Tauros i also dont have much of a problem with either, I was thinking about it as well and it should fit pretty well in UU, although some testing may be required as it is a pretty Bulky pokemon coupled with the fact that it has Intimidate.