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DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)
- Thread starter Phuquoph
- Start date
Actually it is more like 522 BST with EV investment purely in Defenses (71/41 effective base attack/speed respectively). The more that is invested in those two stats the smaller the effective base stats believe it or not. That is still higher than most in UU, but bear in mind that it comes with effectively no ability and absolutely no means of recovery besides lol Drain Punch.
Regigigas does however boast some impressive support options that allow it to both cripple the opponent and stick around longer to possibly stall out Slow Start. One interesting thing of note though is that it is very difficult to effectively stall five turns with it whilst maintaining the threat of a sweep afterwards due to EV and moveslot conflicts.
Could not have put this better myself, although you didn't need to mention it twice. Auto-weather has already heavily centralized OU by forcing people to use walls who can still carry out their job effectively under the adverse conditions. That leaves precious few walls left in UU, and I have no doubt that the inclusion of auto-weather would create at least the same level of centralization, probably more so.
Regigigas does however boast some impressive support options that allow it to both cripple the opponent and stick around longer to possibly stall out Slow Start. One interesting thing of note though is that it is very difficult to effectively stall five turns with it whilst maintaining the threat of a sweep afterwards due to EV and moveslot conflicts.
Could not have put this better myself, although you didn't need to mention it twice. Auto-weather has already heavily centralized OU by forcing people to use walls who can still carry out their job effectively under the adverse conditions. That leaves precious few walls left in UU, and I have no doubt that the inclusion of auto-weather would create at least the same level of centralization, probably more so.
Y=1.1(2x+5) + 99 is the formula for every stat other than HP when you have 252 EVs, 31 IVs and a +Nature. Y is the stat, x is the base stat. I'm just doing this with all the empty numbers already added together because I don't feel like doing any extra work. All decimals are rounded down. Let's solve for Regigigas's base stats in Attack and Speed under Slow Start in these conditions:
Attack
230 = 1.1(2x+5) + 99
131 = 1.1(2x+5)
131 = 2.2x + 5.5
x = 56
His base Attack is actually base 56 under Slow Start conditions.
Speed
164 = 1.1(2x+5) + 99
65 = 1.1(2x+5)
65 = 2.2x + 5.5
x = 26
His base Speed is base 26 under Slow Start conditions.
That means that his base stat total under Slow Start is actually 492 if he can't outstall the Slow Start, regardless of how many EVs he invests in a certain stat.
Its auto-weather, but not permanent weather. You can remove Hail and SS with Sunny Day and Rain Dance. Would UU really be that centralized around SNOVER and HIPPOPOTAS? Think about it, these pokemon suck and take up a valuable moveslot on your team. Once these pokemon are eliminated, you can get rid of SS or Hail with weathers that are a lot more dangerous in UU (at least SS and Hail don't give any pokemon speed boosts or Double-STAB)
But what if people play smart and switch in Snover of Hippopotas while you change the weather? Let me reiterate; these pokemon are garbage. These are Hippopotas' stats 68/72/78/38/42/32 and Snover's stats 60/62/50/62/60/40. Everytime your opponent switches these guys in trying to set-up weather, you pretty much get a free turn.
The reason because auto-weather is so centralized in OU is because Tyranitar and Hippowdon are amazing. Abomasnow less so (I don't think anyone complains about Hail, lol) This is not the case at all with Snover and Hippopotas.
Sure they suck, but their abilities don't. They can't do much damage on there own, but they do power up other pokemon to levels far higher than normal.
I am also against banning Scyther. 50% from SR hurts a lot, especially with very few spinners in UU. Bringing in Drapion and Steelix will help weaken him quite a bit. He looks incredibly powerful on paper, but doesn't hold up in battle nearly as well as other set-up sweepers (Pinsir, Ninetails).
The problem with Snover and Hippopotas is that they will overcentralize the metagame. They will cause at least half a dozen to be banned to BL, and will make weather starters a necessity to avoid having your lefties negated (or worse). Not worth bringing them down.
The problem with Snover and Hippopotas is that they will overcentralize the metagame. They will cause at least half a dozen to be banned to BL, and will make weather starters a necessity to avoid having your lefties negated (or worse). Not worth bringing them down.
But they will do one positive, increase Golduck usage. I love it and its cloud nine, but it seems there are few others...
If Steelix is now UU, I think Scyther can stay. Even a Swords Danced Brick Break isn't going to do too much to it, and it can OHKO back with Gyro Ball/Stone Edge. Pinsir, on the other hand, could use Close Combat and EQ.
Snover and Hippopotas should not even be considered. Especially Snover - I played in a UU tournament in the early days of D/P in which Abomasnow was UU, and there was abolutely no way to reliably counter a UU hail team (especially considering how most of the typical hail team is UU anyways).
Snover and Hippopotas should not even be considered. Especially Snover - I played in a UU tournament in the early days of D/P in which Abomasnow was UU, and there was abolutely no way to reliably counter a UU hail team (especially considering how most of the typical hail team is UU anyways).
Look, if we bring Hippopotas and Snover down to UU, there's going to be a ton of pokemon moving to BL like many people have said. Let's see, probably something like this:
Walrein
Glaceon
Shuckle
Kabutops
Froslass
Jynx
Cradily
Relicanth
Now, I'm not really sure that we need to make the BL tier anymore bigger than it already is. Not to mention that Sandstorm/Hail ruins so many walls, takes away several strategies such as EndRevving and stuff like that. Snover and Hippopotas just aren't worth it to bring down to UU when they're hurting the balance of the tier like that.
Walrein
Glaceon
Shuckle
Kabutops
Froslass
Jynx
Cradily
Relicanth
Now, I'm not really sure that we need to make the BL tier anymore bigger than it already is. Not to mention that Sandstorm/Hail ruins so many walls, takes away several strategies such as EndRevving and stuff like that. Snover and Hippopotas just aren't worth it to bring down to UU when they're hurting the balance of the tier like that.
On the point of Ludicolo, let's not forget that he also has Swords Dance and a decent physical movepool to work with. In the UU environment, I can actually picture a physical set with, say, Swords Dance, Waterfall, Ice Punch, Razor Leaf/Thunder Punch being quite deadly, perhaps moreso than the standard special one. Just throwing that out there, especially since so many UU physical walls hate either Water or Ice.
You might say that he's to slow to sweep on his own with the likes of Swellow and Scyther running around, but that's where Swift Swim comes into play. I've swept with this in OU, so it's certainly not "just some gimmick."
On the subject of Empoleon, for the love of god, keep it BL. 350 special attack, Water/Ice/Grass attacking combination, and Agility. If that's not your thing, once again, decent physical movepool with Swords Dance. Water/Flying is an amazing attacking combination down in UU, along with, say, Hydro Pump for those things that try to be physical walls. Or perhaps Earthquake as a final move, so that Lanturn is no longer a counter.
Cursing Miltank also manages to break UU. I abused the hell out of it back in the day, the only time I think it ever went down was when it got frozen.
Torterra, perhaps. I might like to see this one tested, but again, I think the combination of Swords Dance and Rock Polish, as well as general bulkiness and the offensive stats and movepool to take out pretty much anything that tries to wall it will end up sending it back to BL.
Ninetales is highly debatable; it does have counters, though. Altaria and Grumpig immediately come to mind, both of which would have an amazing amount of trouble getting past Houndoom.
Entei, no idea.
Since was Shedinja not UU? I always assumed it was; no reason for it to be BL.
Clefable, again, tough one. In favor of it going to BL are its huge movepool, stallishness, and general unpredictability. But then you step back and consider the amount of Fighting-type moves and pokemon going around UU that can OHKO the fucker.
I'm actually wondering just how gamebreaking Porygon 2 would be in UU. After all, it doesn't have access to Nasty Plot or Adaptability, two of Z's biggest assets. It's also slow. That's not to say its movepool doesn't make up for those two things, though.
You might say that he's to slow to sweep on his own with the likes of Swellow and Scyther running around, but that's where Swift Swim comes into play. I've swept with this in OU, so it's certainly not "just some gimmick."
On the subject of Empoleon, for the love of god, keep it BL. 350 special attack, Water/Ice/Grass attacking combination, and Agility. If that's not your thing, once again, decent physical movepool with Swords Dance. Water/Flying is an amazing attacking combination down in UU, along with, say, Hydro Pump for those things that try to be physical walls. Or perhaps Earthquake as a final move, so that Lanturn is no longer a counter.
Cursing Miltank also manages to break UU. I abused the hell out of it back in the day, the only time I think it ever went down was when it got frozen.
Torterra, perhaps. I might like to see this one tested, but again, I think the combination of Swords Dance and Rock Polish, as well as general bulkiness and the offensive stats and movepool to take out pretty much anything that tries to wall it will end up sending it back to BL.
Ninetales is highly debatable; it does have counters, though. Altaria and Grumpig immediately come to mind, both of which would have an amazing amount of trouble getting past Houndoom.
Entei, no idea.
Since was Shedinja not UU? I always assumed it was; no reason for it to be BL.
Clefable, again, tough one. In favor of it going to BL are its huge movepool, stallishness, and general unpredictability. But then you step back and consider the amount of Fighting-type moves and pokemon going around UU that can OHKO the fucker.
I'm actually wondering just how gamebreaking Porygon 2 would be in UU. After all, it doesn't have access to Nasty Plot or Adaptability, two of Z's biggest assets. It's also slow. That's not to say its movepool doesn't make up for those two things, though.
i've never thought of ludicolo going physical, real interesting.
Agree with you on empoleon 100%
Not to mention he can take special attacks well. The best specsmence counter.
And, after lookign at your sig, gotta say gl on the cress :)
holy crap yea.. lol
Definately agreeing with you on Empoleon Syberia. I'm not a UU exper but there's no reason he should be moved to UU. Not only is he good enough for BL/OU but UU would not be able to handle him. Swords, aqua jet, agility. He might lack a recovery move outside of rest but don't let him terrorize UU.
I've actually mulled over Porygon2 for a while I was going to bring it up in the last thread but I decided to save it for the inevitable new one. On one hand Porygon2 IS very bulky with two methods of recocvery and has a great movepool and great stats. Speed isn't actually much of an issue since its a fantastic Trick Room starter and also gets Agility and T-Wave.
On the other hand, it is a normal type, has no bases beyond 100 and Manectric and Glaceon actually hits harder than it. Porygon2 is very much a borderline case where there is possible merit but its almost certainly going to be a top end UU if it does become so.
You actually brought up a pretty interesting point there. Physical Ludicolo is most certainly usuable and effective within UU. Off the top of my head the best example is Tentacruel, its standard set in UU was and always has been Druidcruel. The standard OU utility Tentacruel wouldn't actually even do anything useful in UU besides Rapid Spin.
Porygon2 seems much like a Bulkyer Clefable to me, with an interesting, but probably worse in the long run, trait. It has even bulkyer stats (85 / 90 / 95) as opposed too (95 / 73 / 90), the same single weakness but better overall defence to take the SE harder hits, fight back off that huge Satk and Recover off the damage later, making it harder to counter. People should also remember it has Agility, which would be quite viable in UU, and deadly with STAB Tri Attack.
Copied over from the other thread, these are the things which have fallen solidly into disuse.
Extra note about Golem and Granbull they are actually on the edge, a push either way will solidly seal them as low end UU or NU. As it stands they're essentially on the abyss's edge if people don't start using them more.
These are the lowest end UU who are most in danger of falling into NU...
I'd like to contribute this to the discussion. I wrote this applet for the CAP project, but I guess it's something that can be used here too to compare Pokemon base stats.
In a nutshell, Physical Sweepiness (PS) and Special Sweepiness (SS) are how good that Pokemon is to sweep using the Attack/Speed stats and the SpA/Speed stats respectively. Physical Tankiness (PT) and Special Tankiness (ST) are how good that Pokemon is to take hits using the HP/Def stats and the HP/SpD stats respectively.
A value of 100 in each of those 4 values means that stat is average. The applet also gives a short comment on how good or bad that stat is. For example, let's do Ludicolo:
Physical Sweepiness: 90 (Below Average)
Physical Tankiness: 96 (Average)
Special Sweepiness: 111 (Above Average)
Special Tankiness: 128 (Moderately Good)
I usually write these in 'Sweeptank' stats form: 90/96/111/128.
Another example: Hitmonlee has Sweeptank stats 168/62/58/112. (Extremely Good PS, Extremely Bad PT, Abysimal SS, Above Average ST).
These sweeptank stats are more meaningful than the base stats. First of all, people tend to think that the HP stat is there for nothing, where in fact it's useful. Incorporating the HP stat in the defenses is thus very welcome. So is incorporating the Speed stat in the attacking stats.
It is important that I mention that this only takes base stats into account, and nothing else. For an account of how the calculations are performed, take a look at this thread.
In a nutshell, Physical Sweepiness (PS) and Special Sweepiness (SS) are how good that Pokemon is to sweep using the Attack/Speed stats and the SpA/Speed stats respectively. Physical Tankiness (PT) and Special Tankiness (ST) are how good that Pokemon is to take hits using the HP/Def stats and the HP/SpD stats respectively.
A value of 100 in each of those 4 values means that stat is average. The applet also gives a short comment on how good or bad that stat is. For example, let's do Ludicolo:
Physical Sweepiness: 90 (Below Average)
Physical Tankiness: 96 (Average)
Special Sweepiness: 111 (Above Average)
Special Tankiness: 128 (Moderately Good)
I usually write these in 'Sweeptank' stats form: 90/96/111/128.
Another example: Hitmonlee has Sweeptank stats 168/62/58/112. (Extremely Good PS, Extremely Bad PT, Abysimal SS, Above Average ST).
These sweeptank stats are more meaningful than the base stats. First of all, people tend to think that the HP stat is there for nothing, where in fact it's useful. Incorporating the HP stat in the defenses is thus very welcome. So is incorporating the Speed stat in the attacking stats.
It is important that I mention that this only takes base stats into account, and nothing else. For an account of how the calculations are performed, take a look at this thread.
Strategies that already exist in OU? UU is meant to be different from OU, and thus I can't see why you don't think "It makes UU like OU" is a viable argument. Obviously it is.
Why does everyone believe that UU have to be as inherently different from OU as possible? This doesn't make sense to me. The only REAL purpose of UU should be that all **Uber, OU, and BL are banned**. That's it. Any logic beyond that and you're just trying to make your OWN tier. "Making UU like OU" is not a viable arguments because it is SUPER-SUBJECTIVE. "Wow I think Wobbufett and Deoxys-E make OU like Ubers" so they shouldn't be allowed. See how terrible that argument is? If a pokemon isn't broken in that tier, it should be allowed in.
I liked Bologo's logic and how auto-weather in UU would seem more centralized and gamebreaking that it is in OU. That's what I really wanted to hear. Not these tired arguments of making UU as little resembling of OU as possible.
In that case you've just confirmed what I said about the effective base stats becoming smaller with greater investment, except that it is impossible to have two max +nature stats at the same time.
Besides that formula you used is weird. Surely in that particular case it is just y=1.1(2x+99) just like the stat formula. I have no idea where that extra 5 term comes from. That would actually cause slight overestimation in the base stat calculation so those numbers are probably more or less right when you factor in only one nature at a time. However that is only for when Attack and speed are maxed out, whereas I was talking about putting all EVs in defenses, which gives 71 and 41. Therefore the effective BST is somewhere between 492 and 522 depending on where the EVs are placed. Sorry about the delayed reply, I've just been busy all day.
Porygon2 has 105 special attack, I'd call that beyond 100. Like you said though it is a Normal type and therefore has a lot of competition for a place in a team. Plus I'd call the argument of top tier status a positive one as it means it is not necessarily broken, and the more top tier options the better IMO.
But the SS and Hail aren't permanent. I argue that Sunny Day and Rain Dance are perfectly capable of countering SS and Hail in UU. Just look at how many of those pokes are grass weak and hate double STAB'd fire attacks.
And how is UU inherently balanced if for a large part of its inception its been based on extremely false pretenses? I'm referring to all the OU-lite, blanket ban all NFE's, making UU the tier I way I want to see it, sentiment that's been largely set in stone until very recently. The only purpose of UU should be a tier in which all Ubers, OU, and BL pokemon are banned.
If people want to make UU a metagame devoid of the weather strategies found in Ubers and OU, then I think we need to redefine what a tier should be. (I argue that if we can make tiers to how we should see them fit, we should ban Wobbuffett and Dugtrio cause I don't like them, I'm pretty sure I could get the majority opinion on the matter too.)
Not everyone does, opinions vary on the subject. People are attracted to the UU metagame for different reasons. It's what makes it diverse ...
Perhaps not, but as I'm sure you will appreciate your perspective doesn't necessarily make sense to others.
Is it? Smogon's philosophy states
"the "UU metagame" is an attempt to give a more interesting look at Pokémon that may not compete well with the stronger Pokémon of the game;"
The UU (and NU) metagames exist to mitigate this problem by creating an arena where lesser Pokémon can be used while still following the competitive ideal, but this is not perfect,
Their is a certain ambiguity in both statements that lead themselves to multiple readings ... until the metagame has been fully explored any statement including the one you've just made is perspective ...
All tiers are someone's vision of what a tier should look like ... it is simply that their perspective has been accepted as definitive or agreed upon by a majority.
They might be ... but you are potentially forcing every team to dedicate a team member to countering them. Rain Dance and Sunny Day are only because they have a limited duration, once brought into play both Sandstream and Hail are permanent unless you have a counter.
No one has claimed that it is inherently balanced.
Once the upper tiers have been finalised more detalied testing of the lower tiers can be begin until then most people are simply making the best of what they have.
That is your opinion, and whilst you are entitled to it, it is no more or less valid than anyone elses.