Hahahaha. I can't believe I didn't catch this. I assumed he was right but yeah, Poliwrath no longer makes that great counter if he doesnt even have access to that certain attack...
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DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)
- Thread starter Phuquoph
- Start date
Hahahaha. I can't believe I didn't catch this. I assumed he was right but yeah, Poliwrath no longer makes that great counter if he doesnt even have access to that certain attack...
Except, if you can stop kick ninetale's ass (or at least scare it out) before it nasty plots, all it has to work with is a CRAPPY base 81 sATK score . . . >.>
If it thunderbolts on the switch poli outspeeds for the kill. Also, oops on Cross Chop, I just assumed it had it when I was putting a move in the calculator. In any case, poli still kills with boosted BB.
You do realize that an Agility Porygon2's obviously have more speed than a 0/0 Poliwrath, since Porygon2 actually wants to outspeed stuff after Agility, right?
Also, Porygon2's not going to be running absolute max speed, most likely, because it's not outspeeding anything good by doing that. At most, it might go up to 209 speed to outspeed Electrode after an Agility, which is the fastest thing in UU besides Choice Scarfers. Let's see, that leaves 40 EVs for HP. It's not like Porygon2 HAS to run Life Orb either.
0/0 Poliwrath Brick Break vs. 40 HP Porygon2 = 49.22% - 57.94%
Has a chance of not even being a 2HKO while Poliwrath can't switch in, and is slower anyways. Terrible counter.
Edit: nvm, just realized I put tri-attack in the calculator from checking lanturn.
Wow...look, I read your post, and it wasn't correct, so don't accuse me of not reading your posts.
First off, you don't say 0/0 for a pokemon like Poliwrath who can have either 0/0 for defenses or 0/0 for offenses, because that leads to miscommunications, because you never specified which one it was. Maybe do that in the future?
Look, maybe this will show you that you're incorrect?
252 SAtk Modest Nature Thunderbolt with +1 SpAtk from Download w/Leftovers vs. 0 SDef Poliwrath = 100.62% - 118.38%
Poliwrath CANNOT switch in, therefore it is NOT a counter. Geez. It also can't just be called a counter when it needs to have a boosted attack to even kill P2.
I just realized he has calculations for moves that aren't part of the set, which is really deceptive. Given, Muk and Meganium would probably be killed anyway since they would never run 252/252 boosting nature, but putting calculations for moves that aren't on the set makes it look more impressive than it is.
Edit: I just did the calcs for muck and it wouldn't be a 2HKO even with the analysis spread if P2 was wearing wise glasses. That's why it needs life orb and why Lanturn would work.
And when I said boosted I meant by an item.
Edit: I just did the calcs for muck and it wouldn't be a 2HKO even with the analysis spread if P2 was wearing wise glasses. That's why it needs life orb and why Lanturn would work.
And when I said boosted I meant by an item.
God not this discussion again. I thought we were over this.
Lanturn is also nowhere near a counter. It does 35.05% - 41.16% with surf from 192 SpAtk on 0/0 P2. Meanwhile P2 does 52.87% - 62.09% with a boosted tri attack to 40/240 lanturn. Given we're agility sweeping with P2, it will be running some speed so it's going to be faster than lanturn. It does not even need to agility, it can tri attack as you switch in and then tri attack you again before you can attack it.
Muk is also a rather poor choice for countering. Once again it's going to be slower and takes 45.17% - 53.14% from tri attack switching in (252/176 muk). Its best attack on P2, gunk shot does 47.91% - 56.27%. Any residual damage, or SR and muk dies before it can attack. If it's full HP, it will get that one attack in, provided it doesn't miss, and then die.
In any case, we don't need another pokemon in UU that has like 1 counter which everyone ends up being forced to carry.
Lanturn is also nowhere near a counter. It does 35.05% - 41.16% with surf from 192 SpAtk on 0/0 P2. Meanwhile P2 does 52.87% - 62.09% with a boosted tri attack to 40/240 lanturn. Given we're agility sweeping with P2, it will be running some speed so it's going to be faster than lanturn. It does not even need to agility, it can tri attack as you switch in and then tri attack you again before you can attack it.
Muk is also a rather poor choice for countering. Once again it's going to be slower and takes 45.17% - 53.14% from tri attack switching in (252/176 muk). Its best attack on P2, gunk shot does 47.91% - 56.27%. Any residual damage, or SR and muk dies before it can attack. If it's full HP, it will get that one attack in, provided it doesn't miss, and then die.
In any case, we don't need another pokemon in UU that has like 1 counter which everyone ends up being forced to carry.
I'm back from a D/P break and I've noticed mark 2 of this thread. I haven't been able to look through all 17 pages of this thread but I was wondering if the discussion of Espeon has come up? (If it has I would be greatful if you could point me to a page where it was discussed).
Espeon would appear to be a watered down Alakazam but with the niche of passing Calm Minds; a task that has proven to be almost impossible in the current OU metagame. However I was thinking about it's testing in UU, would it be worth the time?
The Calm Mind set would or at least I would suspect would be easier to pull off easier in UU and with that set alone I think it would be able too fit right in UU. (It's countered 100% By Steelix and WW Drapion). However what makes me apprehensive about it's inclusion is that it can use fake tears.
The Specs set can be beaten with(prediction) the use of Hypno/Grumpig as long as they have another pokemon on the team that can absorb a Shadowball.
The Fake Tears set however once Espeon get's in;It's counters start to get a bit shaky as any common special wall will have it's special defense dropped by 2 levels, and UU is full of other pokemon who don't have the special defensive stat to handle Espeon. Also mentioning that Espeon can reach 350 (Gengar's) speed Which would make it very hard to outspeed and counter without a scarf.
The Negatives are that it's frail on the physical side very frail. 65/60 for physical defense does not allow it many opportunities to switch in. It also much be weary of status because that'll ruin Espeon too (Although it's a bit of a double-edge sword because of synch).
So, what do you guys think of Espeon's inclusion in the UU tier on a testing basis?
Espeon would appear to be a watered down Alakazam but with the niche of passing Calm Minds; a task that has proven to be almost impossible in the current OU metagame. However I was thinking about it's testing in UU, would it be worth the time?
The Calm Mind set would or at least I would suspect would be easier to pull off easier in UU and with that set alone I think it would be able too fit right in UU. (It's countered 100% By Steelix and WW Drapion). However what makes me apprehensive about it's inclusion is that it can use fake tears.
The Specs set can be beaten with(prediction) the use of Hypno/Grumpig as long as they have another pokemon on the team that can absorb a Shadowball.
The Fake Tears set however once Espeon get's in;It's counters start to get a bit shaky as any common special wall will have it's special defense dropped by 2 levels, and UU is full of other pokemon who don't have the special defensive stat to handle Espeon. Also mentioning that Espeon can reach 350 (Gengar's) speed Which would make it very hard to outspeed and counter without a scarf.
The Negatives are that it's frail on the physical side very frail. 65/60 for physical defense does not allow it many opportunities to switch in. It also much be weary of status because that'll ruin Espeon too (Although it's a bit of a double-edge sword because of synch).
So, what do you guys think of Espeon's inclusion in the UU tier on a testing basis?
Your intelligence is quite shallow if you only look at a pokemon's base stats to determine how strong they are. And by your own admission why would you even try to bring up the subject of Articuno whose 90/100/125 defensive bases are extremely good. No need to bring up it's horrible ice typing or shallow movepool. Stats = everything -_-
I'll wait for more responses to Espeon.
weeeeellllll, Manectric has 105 spAtk/105 Speed, and it's already top UU. Nothing in UU even comes close to those special attacking stats. Yes, its hard to get in, but so is Swellow and Scyther and Hitmonlee, and they're still very potent threats. It has access to Trace, which also helps get it in and counter several pokemon (it was brought up in the P2 discussion for more on that). And if you give Espeon HP Ground it can take out both Steelix and Drapion on the Calm Mind set.
The only reason I went with my previous post was because I thought it would just be a foregone comclusion.
in short I think fuck no. It has better offensive stats than Ninetails. You're saying that Steelix counters Espeon? That's funny considering Espeon can pack hp fire/ground (ground probably being better for killing aggron/poison types in uu) which on a modest specs set will 2HKO a max sdef max hp steelix, oh by the way no steelix runs max sdef so it will probably OHKO a standard steelix. Shadow ball on the same modest specs set 2HKOs both Hypno and Grumpig. Just about nothing in UU will wall a specs set, even max sp. def/hp Noctowl is 2HKO'd by modest psychic.
All of my calcs assume max hp/sdef on the wall, and all of UU's premier special walls (and naturally all of its physical walls) are 2HKO'd by Espeon. I also assume said modest cspec espeon's set to be something to the tune of psychic/shadow ball/grass knot/hidden power ground, which hits all of your 'counters' for a 2HKO.
Espeon does not have access to Trace. Espeon's only ability is Synchronize.
The SCMS is down so we cannot currently change the tiers of any pokemon. Feel free to test them on your own and respond back with your results but they will not be officially UU untill the SCMS is back up.
Ironically all of what you have said also applies to Glaceon who is in fact UU and has access to a better STAB attacking type in Ice.
However as far as Espeon specifically is concerned, 130 SpAtk and 110 Speed which would be by far the best Spatk and Speed combination in UU coupled with the fact that it can also Calm Mind, Baton Pass and even Recover health with Morning Sun with no Sandstream to hinder it really does make it seem a bit much for UU.
If Espeon had Manectric's movepool I wouldn't of dare suggested it be moved down into UU for testing. The fact of the matter is that Espeon's movepool is shallow. It has trace? I think you mean synchronize. In regards to what Steelix and Drapion counter is the "Standard EspyJump". The Standard Espeon set has CM/Psychic/Sub/Baton Pass. They can indeed counter "that" set.
Well regardless of what you thought... you went about it in a very offensive and mocking way that's what triggered my previous response.
Ok. Can you name a specs or choice user that if you predict wrong you won't take extreme damage from it? Again because I don't think you read or perhaps you skipped over it by mistake I'll post what I said:
Thanks for your respectful response. I can understand how powerful a combination like that is; especially when you can CM up against weaker special attackers and heal HP using Morning Sun.
The most dangerous Espeon set could be the one that can freely choose it's move powering itself with CM or weakening the foe with Fake Tears. To the previous posters you acted as if I said "Espeon should be UU, Period". I have no idea why it garnered such rude posts. Hopefully I'll be able to do some testing within the upcoming days and report back some actual evidence of Espeon being overpowered or could fit into UU. If anyone else wants to help feel free.
The main thing that really bugs me about trying to move down all of these strong sweepers is that walling in UU is already very difficult when compared to OU, and keeps getting more difficult. I don't want to see UU devolve into a slugfest tier where the hardest hitters/most efficient set ups always win, because that will make it even more boring than OU as far as variety of pokemon goes. I don't think anyone wants to see stall as the #1 best unstoppable tactic in UU but I think it deserves some sort of parity with an offensive team, and at the moment I don't really think that's happening. Just my opinion though, everyone has their own vision of what UU ought to be.
So are you saying currently the UU metagame is slanted towards offensive play? because that's totally not the case. On the contrary, stalling has gotten a lot more common, and dare I say "easy", with the addition of Steelix and Drapion. Adding to that, common sweepers like Ninetales and Clefable (yes it can be in whatever category it wants), have just been discussed whether or not to reconsider for BL.
On the idea of Espeon to be moved down... hell no. Extremely dangerous when played right. It doesn't even fear Pursuit when it can Baton Pass.. it doesn't even need Substitute if you have a problem with Roar users like Drapion and Steelix, so you can hit them with HP ground for SE damage (but that has been mentioned already).
On the idea of Espeon to be moved down... hell no. Extremely dangerous when played right. It doesn't even fear Pursuit when it can Baton Pass.. it doesn't even need Substitute if you have a problem with Roar users like Drapion and Steelix, so you can hit them with HP ground for SE damage (but that has been mentioned already).
What strong sweepers are you even referring to? It's not as if we are moving Alakazam or Houndoom to UU. Each pokemon that has been moved down or is being seriously considered for a move down thus far have significant counters in UU.
I don't think stalling is as easy as you make it sound in UU since almost everyone is packing a spinner of some sort and the UU Ghosts aren't really that hard to take down with the spinners themselves. As far as Drapion is concerned i don't really see it adding that much to stall teams in UU. No recovery and with almost every team packing some sort of poison type or a spinner it's stalling abilities are fairly limited.
Do you know how strong the eeveelutions are? With the exception of maybe flareon, I seriously think none of them really belong in UU. I've used an eeveelution team against OUs and you'd be surprised at how good it is. You'd also be surprised to know that it's not the OU eevees like jolteon and vaporeon that do the most damage, it's the UU ones. Leafeon SD BP to flareon (possibly agilipass from jolteon too) sweeps many pokemon. This is a very good combo as any incoming fire and bug attacks directed at leafeon is easily absorbed by flareon. Then there's espeon CM BP to glaceon or just sub cm sweep by itself.
Lately, I feel that Dusclops deserves to be mentioned either in UU or BL (preferabbly BL) and I'll explain why.
It's just like Dusknoir except slightly weaker attacks and slower. By having Dusclops slower than Dusknoir, it has a slight advantage under a Trick Room scenario.
Despite if Dusclops's popularity has been nearly overwritten by Dusknoir, wouldn't you guys think it's still a force for BL/UU to deal with?
It's just like Dusknoir except slightly weaker attacks and slower. By having Dusclops slower than Dusknoir, it has a slight advantage under a Trick Room scenario.
Despite if Dusclops's popularity has been nearly overwritten by Dusknoir, wouldn't you guys think it's still a force for BL/UU to deal with?