DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)

[Cynthia]

I thiink this thread has attracted most of the UU players I've seen anyway. That isn't to say that every single UU battler has responded in this thread, but there's a good representation here, at least in my opinion.

You may have your own opinion on Leafeon and Steelix, but personally I haven't found them too powerful for UU, note that Leafeon and Steelix were both playtested and discussed in detail before moving down. I will agree with you that Weezing is not a good UU candidate.

Making BL the new UU and banning overcentralizing/imbalanced Pokemon from there (which would be difficult to do in my opinion) can really only be done with a UU ladder in place, which does not exist at the present time.

 

[Aldaron]

I've questioned it time and time again Bologo, you're just slightly slow on the uptake ;D

Anyway, why do they need to be put in check? I don't think any of them are particularly hard to stop :/

 

[ODDish]

since things like the Hitmons are on a huge amount of UU teams and are very hard to stop?

Not so much anymore ... the only Hitmon that you still see with any regularity is 'top, although even he seems to be losing ground to the far more versatile 'croak.

 

[Forsety]

Not so much anymore ... the only Hitmon that you still see with any regularity is 'top, although even he seems to be losing ground to the far more versatile 'croak.

Have to agree with this, from what I've seen with Claydol's running around its tamed most of the Hitmon's as they give free switch ins for setup. Toxicroak has become more popular now people have finally realized how much more dangerous Nasty Plot version is.

 

[gengod]

Pokemon like Hitmonlee [...] simply have no counters or really reliable switchins in UU that can stand up to them .

Erm, Claydol ... ?

Besides Claydol what exactly is capable of switching into a Life Orbed Hitmonlee packing the standard Close Combat, Stone Edge, Earthquake, Blaze Kick?

Pokemon like Kabutops, Armaldo, Absol, Kingler, Sharpedo and even the odd Scyther are actually capable of breaking through Weezings defense depending on their moveset.

Although all the run the risk of being crippled by WoW, and in the case of the Water types taking a Thunderbolt or two.

Sure they run the risk of being crippled by WoW, but Weezing is switching into these pokemon not the other way around and if these pokemon can possibly 2HKO Weezing then it still needs to be careful when actually trying to take them on or risk being KOed.

Maniac is killing my beloved UU metagame with this Aerodactyl, Miltank and Weezing nonsense ~_~

Nonsense?...I think i've given pretty good reasons for why I think each of these pokemon are UU material.

It seems like what you are trying to do is remove the BL "tier," and perhaps balance this faux tier. However, wouldn't this be more prudent to do without the current system of UU and BL? Instead of working with this system, the best would be do to what Obi said in his PR thread.

It is my personal opnion that by going through with what Obi suggested we are actually just going to be progressing backwards and wasting a large amount of time in trying to determine the tier that way as I feel we will most likely still end up with the same UU tier we are basically forming now.

We have have no criteria with which we can use to determine if we should actually ban a pokemon, because i'm sure usage statistics alone are not going to determine wheter we ban something or not (just take a look at Garchomp).

The way i see it if we go through with the proposal then bannings or allowances of pokemon in the UU tier will still be based on peoples opinons (the same way with which they are being done in this thread). I have no problem testing his proposal seperately and comparing the results to the ones achieved in this thread but i don't think it should be the primary way with which to determine the pokemon of the UU tier.

Have to agree with this, from what I've seen with Claydol's running around its tamed most of the Hitmon's as they give free switch ins for setup. Toxicroak has become more popular now people have finally realized how much more dangerous Nasty Plot version is.

Claydol and the aforementioned Nidoqueen do not "tame" the fighters in UU. I've seen many fighting types run Earthquake in UU just to hit pokemon like Nidoqueen and Toxicroak who would normally wall their standard sets.

I also don't see how Claydol is going to stop Hitmonchan and it's Ice Punch or Primeape and it's U-turn/Ice Punch. Hitmontop also does 33.64% - 39.51% to Claydol with Life Orbed Technician Pursuit and i've seen quite a number of Hitmontops running it just for Psychic types that switch into Mach Punch and Close Combat, so I don't consider that a reliable counter either due to the fact that it has no recovery aside from leftovers.

As i've said Weezing serves to help neuter the Physical offensive bias in UU but it by no means makes physicaly offensive pokemon obselete.

 

[ODDish]

Besides Claydol what exactly is capable of switching into a Life Orbed Hitmonlee packing the standard Close Combat, Stone Edge, Earthquake, Blaze Kick?

Well if we're going down that route .... what can switch into Venomoth or Glaceon with impunity? Not a great deal ...

Perhaps we should be considering moving Regice and Empoleon down to help out there?

If the Hitmons are really that dominating, and to be pefectly honest with you I have real doubts about this, why should the emphasis be on moving something down to counter them, and not moving them up?

As i've said Weezing serves to help neuter the Physical offensive bias in UU but it by no means makes physicaly offensive pokemon obselete.

By itself no, but in conjunction with Steelix (and perhaps even Drapion) its certainly going to encourage a shift to the special side ...

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

It is my personal opnion that by going through with what Obi suggested we are actually just going to be progressing backwards and wasting a large amount of time in trying to determine the tier that way as I feel we will most likely still end up with the same UU tier we are basically forming now.

I’m sorry but I have to disagree with you there. Are you really suggesting that the non-OU tier would require the banning of all 50+ BL Pokemon before we have a balanced metagame? Because if so I believe that to be nonsense. The metagame we would have would certainly be of higher standard than UU currently is, but nonetheless a playable and unique metagame in its own right.

The way i see it if we go through with the proposal then bannings or allowances of pokemon in the UU tier will still be based on peoples opinons (the same way with which they are being done in this thread). I have no problem testing his proposal seperately and comparing the results to the ones achieved in this thread but i don't think it should be the primary way with which to determine the pokemon of the UU tier.

Obi’s proposal is the ONLY non-arbitrary way of determining the UU metagame that has so far been suggested, which is why I see it as a very powerful tool that has the potential to resolve much of the controversy that UU has ignited within the community.

‘Power’ will always be subjective in its determination IMO, and so a definition of UU can only really be based on usage and statistics. As for creating a ban list I believe, for the same reason as above, that a completely objective definition of Uber is impossible in practice, and that such issues can only be resolved with a community-wide effort using common sense and experience, i.e. the recent Wobbuffet and Deoxys-S threads.

I feel that the way the community handles the Garchomp issue will play a huge role in determining the way we handle the banning of all Pokemon in the future from any tier, which is why I agree with you in that it should be the No.1 priority issue.

 

[gengod]

Well if we're going down that route .... what can switch into Venomoth or Glaceon with impunity? Not a great deal ...

Perhaps we should be considering moving Regice and Empoleon down to help out there?

Sure not a great deal can switch into them with impunity but both of them at least have counters or decent switchins in UU with their standard sets while Hitmonlee does not aside from Claydol.

Bringing down Empoleon and Regice to counter them would be silly and you know that is not the point i am getting at. Weezing's presence in UU would bring something that can help combat and possibly counter some of the fighters and physical offense which the tier desperatly needs, we are not bringing down pokemon just for the sake of specifically saying "We now have a counter to this X or Y pokemon".

I’m sorry but I have to disagree with you there. Are you really suggesting that the non-OU tier would require the banning of all 50+ BL Pokemon before we have a balanced metagame? Because if so I believe that to be nonsense. The metagame we would have would certainly be of higher standard than UU currently is, but nonetheless a playable and unique metagame in its own right..

I'm suggesting that I think the banning of the majority of the 50+ pokes in BL is going to be required before we have a balanced metagame, how much pokemon in BL do you think are even really going to remain in UU. As i said in my post this is my personal opnion for now but i believe it will be the reality if or when we actually test Obi's proposal.

And for what it's worth UU actually has a pretty higher standard than when it first started, if Obi's proposal were to drive the standard higher then by all means it would be a good change, i just dont see it happening.

Obi’s proposal is the ONLY non-arbitrary way of determining the UU metagame that has so far been suggested, which is why I see it as a very powerful tool that has the potential to resolve much of the controversy that UU has ignited within the community.
.

Please explain to me how Obi's proposal is non-arbitrary... With what ever way we decide to test these pokes there is always going to be subjective reasoning for what and why something should be banned or left in a tier as also shown in the Wobbuffet and Deoxys threads the only thing Obi's suggestion brings is usage statistics which don't get me wrong I do believe are important but they alone cannot determine something place in a tier. So as for non arbitrary I hardly see eye to eye with you there.

If Venomoth and Glaceon have such great switch-ins and counters, list them. I haven't found any yet. By the way, I'd also like you to give me a Crawdaunt counter.

Venomoth: - Noctowl, Mantine, Propobass, Altaria...etc

Glaceon: - Blastoise, Mantine, Politoad, Bastiodon, Propobass (yes i'm aware they can die to Hidden Power Fighting or Ground but still remain good initial switchins as Glaceons standard set tends to be Specs or Scarf).

Crawdaunt: - I don't think anything walls it per say but Crawdaunt is incredibly slow so it's not like its impossible to take out.

 

[umbarsc]

If Venomoth and Glaceon have such great switch-ins and counters, list them. I haven't found any yet. By the way, I'd also like you to give me a Crawdaunt counter.

Maniac is killing my beloved UU metagame with this Aerodactyl, Miltank and Weezing nonsense ~_~

It seems like what you are trying to do is remove the BL "tier," and perhaps balance this faux tier. However, wouldn't this be more prudent to do without the current system of UU and BL? Instead of working with this system, the best would be do to what Obi said in his PR thread.

What you're doing now is littering the UU metagame with various Pokemon you are deeming to be low BL, and we're just going to have endless circular debate if you continue.

This post is utter nonsense. What is the point of saying "sorry, it wasn't this way before, we can't change this now"? Nearly all of BL was banned without a good reason or testing, so now we are just deciding which ones should and shouldn't be UU, like we should have from the start. The default is unbanning Pokemon, not banning them, so it makes no sense to claim that what was banned in the beginning of DP (and by extension, ADV) should always remained so, just so there is no change at all introduced into the UU metagame.

 

[stvn]

We still have Grumpig, Lanturn and a lot of x4 ice resists for Glaceon

Crawndaunt is walled completely by Poliwrath

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Please explain to me how Obi's proposal is non-arbitrary...

With Obi's proposal, at any point in time a Pokemon is potentially eligible for UU if it fulfills one condition; it is not OU (or Uber obviously).

As for what should be banned, I never said there was a non-arbitrary way of determining that. In fact the rest of my post was all about why I thought such issues will always be somewhat subjective in nature.

What I am saying is that with Obi's proposal the initial condition of what determines UU is set in stone by the definition of OU. This is simply not the case for UU now because just like what Umbarsc said, the majority of BL wasn't even given a chance at competitive play in their own environment, therefore there was an arbitrary line drawn that shouldn't have existed in the first place.

I'm sure we both have some kind of theorymon in our heads as to how this hypothetical metagame would pan out, which is never a good argument to draw conclusions from, but at least my theorymon is optimistic in nature.

I'm out all day today so I won't be able to respond to your reply until late tonight.

 

[ODDish]

Weezing's pressense in UU would bring something that can help combat and possibly counter some of the fighters and physical offense which the tier desperatly needs

Unfortunately Maniac we all have very different ideas of what "the tier desperatly needs".

Quite frankly the physical bias that currently exists is in "the tier" is far less of a concern for me, than the fact that at present at least half of the UU tier is either unused or unusable ... and the more pokemon that are brought down to control the top end of the tier the worse it is going to get for those at the lower end of the spectrum.

Glaceon: - Blastoise, Mantine, Politoad, Bastiodon, Propobass (yes i'm aware they can die to Hidden Power Fighting or Ground but still remain good initial switchins as Glaceons standard set tends to be Specs or Scarf).

Not so much anymore ... most now opt for flexibilty with either Wish or Fake
Tear support.

We still have Grumpig, Lanturn and a lot of x4 ice resists for Glaceon

Which would be wonderful if Glaceon only ran Ice attacks ... but as it can run any combination of Ice Beam/Shadow Ball/Hidden Power/Fake Tears/Wish, neither Grumpig nor Lanturn are by any means a "counter".

Nearly all of BL was banned without a good reason or testing, so now we are just deciding which ones should and shouldn't be UU, like we should have from the start.

Or rather like we should when we have a more reliable method of testing ... i.e. a ladder.

 

[gengod]

Quite frankly the physical bias that currently exists is in "the tier" is far less of a concern for me, than the fact that at present at least half of the UU tier is either unused or unusable ... and the more pokemon that are brought down to control the top end of the tier the worse it is going to get for those at the lower end of the spectrum.

Well thats pretty much what UU always was, only the top tier UU pokemon are generally used with a few "Middle UU" pokemon and those that are at the lower end of the spectrum are generally relegated to NU.

 

[ODDish]

Well thats pretty much what UU always was, only the top tier UU pokemon are generally used with a few "Middle UU" pokemon and those that are at the lower end of the spectrum are generally relegated to NU.

Personally I can't wait for the split... then I can finally be done with "UU", and people can move whatever they like down.

Unfortunately until the split happens I'm stuck here sticking up for the little guys.

 

[Cynthia]

Really if there is an issue with a specific Pokemon (like Maniac seems to have with the fighters,) then those Pokemon should be moved up, not move down things to stop them. Things should only be moved down if they wouldn't centralize the current UU around themselves.

 

[umbarsc]

However, he has a problem with "fighters", not a specific Fighting-type. If you fix the problem by banning it, you're banning all three Hitmons, Toxicroak, Primeape, and Poliwrath, which isn't worth banning just to keep Weezinjg out of UU. Not that I'm saying I support moving Weezing to UU, but your logic is out of place here.

 

[kd24]

This is why I want to discuss a NU tier ._. I really would like to play with the little guys and not be stuck with a pool 10 guys to be successful in UU.

On a further note I am against weezing in UU. Aerodactyl as well. Yes they could be countered but when you look at the current UU metagame, Weezing is really going to incapicitate most of it. Aerodactly comepletely overpowers Pokemon such as Manectric and completely shuts down any of UU's walls. Taunt, Stealth Rock, and Pressue Stall with Protect/Sub would pretty much take care of many UU threats. You would pretty much be forced to carry a few Scarfers in hope that Aerodactly doesnt stall you out of PP. Add in Toxic Spikes to the equation and maybe Focus Sash Trapinch to trap posion types who absorb them, Aerodactly becomes way too much of a threat.

Im split on miltank but I think CurseTank would be pretty much unstoppable if it actually was allowed to set up.

 

[ODDish]

This is why I want to discuss a NU tier ._. I really would like to play with the little guys and not be stuck with a pool 10 guys to be successful in UU.

Well I did ask a few pages back, but the response wasn't exactly overwhelming ...

 

[Cynthia]

However, he has a problem with "fighters", not a specific Fighting-type. If you fix the problem by banning it, you're banning all three Hitmons, Toxicroak, Primeape, and Poliwrath, which isn't worth banning just to keep Weezinjg out of UU. Not that I'm saying I support moving Weezing to UU, but your logic is out of place here.

My point was that you don't move things down to stop Pokemon that re too pwerful, you move the Pokemon that re too powerful up. People don't suggest moving Lugia down to stop Garchomp because in the process Lugia would wall a lot of other things that didn't really need it.

 

[umbarsc]

However, you're suggesting we move at least six different Pokemon up just so we keep one Pokemon in BL, one that wouldn't overpower anyways.

 

[Age of Kings]

Well I did ask a few pages back, but the response wasn't exactly overwhelming ...

It doesn't have to be, especially since people on Shoddy are starting to "play" NU matches. I don't see why NU shouldn't start to be discussed, and I personally think it should be defined as soon as possible. Not mention that there are 150+ Pokemon in UU including them, and never have I seen more than 30 or 40 of those ever used. It's a flawed estimate of mine, but still.

On the subject of Aerodactyl, I oppose it in UU. The only thing on my mind that can stop it is Scarf Kabutops (yes, not in the rain, shoot me), Gastrodon/Quagsire, Blastoise or Electrode, all of which aren't exactly staples on every single team. Meganium will survive Fangs/STAB Flying moves, but there's nothing much it can do back before being killed or Aero switching out when it does its damage.
But bleh. I'm at least pleased to hear Steelix is UU now and that Pinsir is banned.

 

[ODDish]

However, you're suggesting we move at least six different Pokemon up just so we keep one Pokemon in BL, one that wouldn't overpower anyways.

Offensively no, but defensively it'll just make a whole lot of the less immediately threatening physical attackers much less viable ...

I don't see why NU shouldn't start to be discussed, and I personally think it should be defined as soon as possible. Not mention that there are 150+ Pokemon in UU including them, and never have I seen more than 30 or 40 of those ever used. It's a flawed estimate of mine, but still.

Someone attempted to start a discussion of NU, but it was promptly locked by a mod.
I was hoping to get some sort of guarantee that any future attempt wouldn't be met with the same response ... but as nothing was forthcoming I didn't pursue it.

Of course we should probably stop all the NU talk here too ...

 

[Age of Kings]

Well, in that event, I suppose it can't be helped, and UU Stadium says that there is no NU tier for D/P. But I think somehow it should be defined for people who say that they do "NU", and not objectively.
In the best case, there should be a sticky like this one, but I would see why a mod would reject that idea because there's so many stickies. I'd ask one for perhaps an official thread, and they'll do it if there's enough demand and pressure for it.
Of course, going back to what you said, there maybe isn't enough pressure for us to do so...
Such a shame, because I'd like another homeplace to play because BL is rubbish now and Wish Hypno is banned on Shoddy. =/ If anything, I'd be a strong proponent for NU.

 

[kd24]

I could PM mods of Stark Mountain, as well as regular SuperMods who visit such as Obi. I think we do need a NU discussion now.

 

[Age of Kings]

I could PM mods of Stark Mountain, as well as regular SuperMods who visit such as Obi. I think we do need a NU discussion now.

Also, another thing is that we can keep the NU spam out of here and keep this thread to focus on testing what is BL and what is UU. All we need is a bit more enthusiasm to put a sticky or an official thread into existence: if there can be an LC thread, I see little reason why we can't have one defining NU. At least, that's what we can tell the mod.