Defining the NU Tier

[Old Man Jenkins]

And we can assume the user of Clamperl doesn't predict correctly 100% of the time. Easily outstalled by anyone who knows what prediction is.

So is Garchomp, Lucario, and Salamence. Everyone can predict 100% of the time, and there is no way your opponent will either guess right or reduce themselves to random moves.

Oh wait, prediction is glorified guessing? huh.

You only have a real advantage in prediction if your opponent is less skilled.

 

[Lesha]

Because you obviously predict right 100% of the time.

You have never fought against a Trick Room Clamperl UU team before have you? Don't lie. Answer honestly.

Actually I have. It was rather easy to stall out. I used a combination of Protect + Sub I carry on my Jolteon.

And we can assume the user of Clamperl doesn't predict correctly 100% of the time. Easily outstalled by anyone who knows what prediction is.

QFT

So is Garchomp, Lucario, and Salamence. Everyone can predict 100% of the time, and there is no way your opponent will either guess right or reduce themselves to random moves.

Oh wait, prediction is glorified guessing? huh.

You only have a real advantage in prediction if your opponent is less skilled.

I hope you were actually talking about someone being able to make a prediction and not being able to predict correctly 100% of the time. Anyways, it is true that to have the upper hand in prediction against your opponent you need more experience, but the more skilled person can still make a mis-prediction and over or under predict.

 

[Old Man Jenkins]

Jolteon is OU. OU.

I said UU. Clamperl is a monster in UU, but is stopped by Blissey in OU.

 

[Kagster123]

So is Garchomp, Lucario, and Salamence. Everyone can predict 100% of the time, and there is no way your opponent will either guess right or reduce themselves to random moves.

Oh wait, prediction is glorified guessing? huh.

You only have a real advantage in prediction if your opponent is less skilled.

Your statments make it seem like the user of clamperl can predict but his opponent cannot. A Toxicroak can come in on two of those moves and Nasty Plot, and live to attack you the next turn. Mantine can beat any version that doesnt run HP electric, and Lanturn can come in on any versions that dont have HP grass. Clamperl isnt unbeatable, far from it actually.

 

[Lesha]

Jolteon is OU. OU.

I said UU. Clamperl is a monster in UU, but is stopped by Blissey in OU.

Jolteon WAS Borderline at one point in time, you asked me to answer truthfully, and thus I did, and as such I had used Jolteon when it was BL in my teams. Mantine and Toxicroak seem to both do a rather good job of stopping the Clamperl you mentioned with Ice Beam, Surf, and HP Grass.

I would also like to point out that Mantine with Mirror Coat and Wacan berry can switch into Ice Beam or Surf, and use Mirror Coat, surviving HP Electric and blasting it back, or forcing a switch if they have HP Grass instead, or HP Fighting or HP Fire.

Your statments make it seem like the user of clamperl can predict but his opponent cannot....

And this type of behavior can easily be compared to the arguments that Cress, Chomp, T-Tar, Metagross and others should be moved to Ubers, that seem to pop up every month or two. Most people that see what is being said and portrayed the way I do tend to agree that these people just can't deal with these Pokemon accordingly, and always seem to implement that they are unstoppable.

 

[Old Man Jenkins]

BL pokes are banned from UU battles.


Toxicroak does a miserable job countering Clamperl, without lots of HP EVs and it has to switch in on SURF otherwise it is in danger of being KOed.

Mantine dies to HP Electric. Lanturn dies to HP Grass.

Together they stop Clamperl, but all UU teams have both of them right? (sarcasm)

Clamperl isn't unbeatable, but its overpowered for UU when part of a team built around it.

 

[Lesha]

Excuse me for not realizing you meant pure UU matches, Marriland, where I hail from, does not have that large of a population of players that do pure UU battles. I am certain in my long time battling there I had encountered more than that one TR team based around Clamperl, but that is the only one to come to mind.

 

[Kagster123]

If it was overpowered for UU, then it would be BL right? Last time i checked it wasn't.

And predicting a surf from clamperl isnt that hard, considering it's its STAB'd and main sweeping move.

And if you have one of those 3 pokemon, you have a good shot at owning that poor Clamperl. You do know those 3 pokemon are common in UU right?

 

[Cynthia]

All right, I've decided to repost the list since it's way back on page 1 and I've made some of the more agreed upon/consensus changes. And while I do agree that the OU statistics are really not very helpful, an extra tier really isn't the point of this thread. We have to separate UU from Nu because we ahve no usage statisics, so essentially this an attempt to balnce NU, which doesn't exist.

Dodrio,Granbull, Gorebyss, Linoone up

Flareon down


Definite UUs
Absol
Aggron
Altaria
Ampharos
Armaldo
Blastoise
Cacturne
Camerupt
Clamperl
Claydol
Clefable
Cradily
Crawdaunt
Dodrio
Drapion
Drifblim
Electrode
Froslass
Gastrodon
Glaceon
Golduck
Gorebyss
Granbull
Grumpig
Hitmonchan
Hitmonlee
Hitmontop
Hypno
Jumpluff
Jynx
Kabutops
Kanghaskhan
Lanturn
Lapras
Leafeon
Linoone
Luxray
Manectric
Mantine
Meganium
Muk
Nidoking
Nidoqueen
Ninetales
Noctowl
Omastar
Persian
Pikachu
Politoed
Poliwrath
Primeape
Probopass
Quagsire
Raichu
Rapidash
Relicanth
Rotom
Sandslash
Scyther
Sharpedo
Shiftry
Shuckle
Skuntank
Steelix
Swellow
Torkoal
Toxicroak
Venomoth
Victreebel
Vileplume
Wailord
Walrein

NU's
Arbok
Ariados
Beautifly
Beedrill
Carnivine
Castform
Cherrim
Chimecho
Delcatty
Delibird
Ditto
Dustox
Exploud
Farfetch'd
Fearow
Flareon
Furret
Girafarig
Glalie
Illumise
Kecleon
Kricketune
Ledian
Lumineon
Luvdisc
Magcargo
Masquerain
Mawile
Mightyena
Minun
Mothim
Pachirisu
Parasect
Pidgeot
Plusle
Sableye
Seaking
Seviper
Spinda
Sunflora
Swalot
Trapinch
Tropius
Unown
Vigoroth
Volbeat
Whiscash
Wigglytuff
Wormadam(all forms)
Xatu

Borderline
Bannete
Belossom
Bibarel
Butterfree
Chatot
Cloyster
Dewgong
Dunsparce
Golem
Huntail
Kingler
Lopunny
Lunatone
Mr Mime
Octillery
Pelipper
Purugly
Qwilfish
Raticate
Solrock
Stantler
Suduwoodo
Vespiquen

 

[Old Man Jenkins]

Toxicroak is not a counter, stop saying it is. It is outrun (Trick Room) and 2HKOed by either Ice Beam or HP Electric. Smart Clamperl players will see the opponent trying to outstall Trick Room and instead make sporadic random attacks. If you switch in on Surf, yes that will work (assuming Toxicroak can actually OHKO). But that doesn't make it a counter.

Mantine works as long as it doesn't have HP Electric

Lanturn works if it doesn't have HP Grass

So two counters, both can actually lose to it.


Even without Trick Room, it is fairly bulky and can survive some moderately powered attacks. So its not helpless without it. Take it from experience...

 

[Lesha]

Toxicroak is not a counter, stop saying it is. It is outrun and 2HKOed by either Ice Beam or HP Electric. Smart Clamperl players will see the opponent trying to outstall Trick Room and instead make sporadic random attacks. If you switch in on Surf, yes that will work (assuming Toxicroak can actually OHKO). But that doesn't make it a counter.

Mantine works as long as it doesn't have HP Electric

Lanturn works if it doesn't have HP Grass

So two counters, both can actually lose to it.

Yes but a lot of Mantine carry Wacan berry for the safety from a OHKO by an electric move so they can Mirror Coat it back. We can't really always bring TR into play, remember that it is never guaranteed to be on the field with Clamperl.

Also, has nothing positive been taken into account the wonders Butterfree can work?

 

[Kagster123]

Toxicroak is not a counter, stop saying it is. It is outrun and 2HKOed by either Ice Beam or HP Electric. Smart Clamperl players will see the opponent trying to outstall Trick Room and instead make sporadic random attacks. If you switch in on Surf, yes that will work (assuming Toxicroak can actually OHKO). But that doesn't make it a counter.

Mantine works as long as it doesn't have HP Electric

Lanturn works if it doesn't have HP Grass

So two counters, both can actually lose to it.

Toxicraok is a counter. Sorry to break it to you. One of your moves heals it and the other is NVE. It can switch in as you TR, considering you need one turn to set up, and if your ally trick rooms you that leaves you wit 1-2 turns less then usual. And im pretty sure if i run a calc that Lanturn is not OHKO'd by HP Grass, considering its bulky. I'm seeing Lapras and Gastradon as counters too. You make it seem like Clamperl can OHKO the whole UU list, and it has all the advantages already. A TR team is hard to set up be it OU or UU.

 

[Lesha]

Toxicraok is a counter. Sorry to break it to you. One of your moves heals it and the other is NVE. It can switch in as you TR, considering you need one turn to set up, and if your ally trick rooms you that leaves you wit 1-2 turns less then usual. And im pretty sure if i run a calc that Lanturn is not OHKO'd by HP Grass, considering its bulky. I'm seeing Lapras and Gastradon as counters too. You make it seem like Clamperl can OHKO the whole UU list, and it has all the advantages already. A TR team is hard to set up be it OU or UU.

Um, I have never had the opportunity to battle a weather based team against a TR team, or the vise-versa, but would the weather destroy TR, I don't belive it would not, but I am not aware what would happen if Rain Dance, Hail, Sandstorm, or Sunny Day was used it would cancel out the TR, in which case, your precious Clamperl's TR strategy would have multiple more counters available at disposal to crush it's dream.

 

[Old Man Jenkins]

Yes but a lot of Mantine carry Wacan berry for the safety from a OHKO by an electric move so they can Mirror Coat it back. We can't really always bring TR into play, remember that it is never guaranteed to be on the field with Clamperl.

Also, has nothing positive been taken into account the wonders Butterfree can work?

Actually Mirror Coat Wacan Berry Mantine is a really cool idea. lol Clamperl counter if nothing else.

Toxicraok is a counter. Sorry to break it to you. One of your moves heals it and the other is NVE.

Yeah, and Ice Beam / HP Electric 2HKO it. If you can not switch into a pokemon with little threat to yourself, it is not a counter.

It can switch in as you TR, considering you need one turn to set up, and if your ally trick rooms you that leaves you wit 1-2 turns less then usual.

Why do you assume this is a double battle? The TRer just Explodes after, killing Toxicroak or hurting whatever else is out.

And im pretty sure if i run a calc that Lanturn is not OHKO'd by HP Grass, considering its bulky.

Probably not, but it can be 2HKOed.

I'm seeing Lapras and Gastradon as counters too. You make it seem like Clamperl can OHKO the whole UU list, and it has all the advantages already. A TR team is hard to set up be it OU or UU.

Eh, i'm lazy. My point is that Clamperl has the capability to 1-2HKO nearly ever UU pokemon on the list. Its not BL, if anything.


@ Lesha

Trick Room is not a Weather. Only Sun would ruin it, and you can say the same thing about Gyarados.

 

[Kagster123]

I dont think weather cancels out TR, but you brought another point that sunny day reduces surfs power.

All croak needs is that 1 turn.

And what lesha said is true, what if your not even able to get a TR up?

 

[Old Man Jenkins]

What one turn? It won't get it if the TRer Expolodes, or even makes the intelligent decision to not send in Clamperl if Toxicroak SDes or Nasty Plots (assuming you survive Explosion due to Focus Sash or kill the TRer before it Explodes)

 

[Kagster123]

Well would you look at that, 2 turns wasted already. I doubt clamperl can sweep a whole team in 3 turns, especially if you can predict its moves correctly. And it cant set it up itself cause its too slow and will die before it can set it up.

 

[Lesha]

I was under the impression someone had already thought of my Wacan Berry Mirror Coat idea, maybe I should go post it somewhere, although, I probably read it somewhere already. Anyways, I still feel that Clamperl would fall easily to something. Shiftree and Ludicolo do wonders in Ubers, but they have to be paired up with someone else that sets up for them, Groudon and Kyogre respectively. Same thing with Clamperl basically, as it does do wonders, but you have to have something else set-up for it, and you can't have it relying on some other pokemon to be able to sweep and have it placed in a higher tier than it can function in on it's own, otherwise it will get murdered, all said, it's better left lower.

 

[burnpsy]

I personally think that Torkoal needs to be in UU, not that borderline tier you temporarily made, it has stats comparable to those of Gliscor except with much more Special Attack along with a movepool hosting a similar amount of moves... his biggest downfall is type alone... why isn't it in UU on that list? and it also sounds like nearly everyone who posted about Torkoal said UU as well...

 

[Bourbon]

Not to mention there are few usable Trick Roomers in UU. The best is probably Claydol... and trick room -> explosion can be seen from miles away... -_-

If Clamperl doesn't sweep at that point, it's dead weight. Yay, you have a glass cannon that's slower than everything!!

 

[seds]

Fire type isn't actually bad, it has the second most resistances next to steel.

~Ice~
~Fire~
~Bug~
~Grass~
~Steel~

Torkoal is also immune to intimidate AND screech, (and all other stat lowerers) but it doesn't need to carry rapid spin. Any spinner weak to stealth rock, also hit by toxic spikes AND spikes means spinning is worthless.

On a side note, huntail can do stuff. It has 341 attack and base 105 defense. It has a fairly unique role; One of few physical attacking waters (with swift swim) A good moveset would have to be this:

Huntail @ Leichi Berry/Leftovers/Life Orb
Adamant
252 attack 152 def 100 spe

~Rain Dance!~
~Waterfall~
~Ice fang/Crunch~
~Return~

Hits 340 speed, to get the jump on Manectric and Scyther... Waterfall threats after rain dance, (most physical walls are weak to water in UU) and use your other physical attack on others. I'll need an expert EV spread maker to determine what makes it toughest on the physical side.

Huntail can hit decently hard, especially after leichi boost, but... Kabutops is somewhat better at sweeping, and gorebyss is able to use amnesia for baton passing. I don't know why game freak gave it aweful stat placement, it should have had the opposite attacking stats as gorebyss.

The folliowing lay the whooping on huntail:

Leafeon
Meganium
Quagsire
Cloyster
Vileplume
Lanturne
Jumpluff
Electrode
Peliper
Parasect

If huntail has a life orb and naughty nature, it could hit Leafeon harder, (it's still UU, right?) And hydro pump might 2HKO cloyster. With hidden power it can get past cloyster also... and with max speed, it could hit 406, which is enough to outrun non-max speed electrode. Out of the NU list, Carnivine and Bellosm and Parasect (and pelliper, depending on where it lands)are the only reliable counters, but seaking and lumineon will outrun it.

 

[Cynthia]

I did move Torkoal up.

Huntail looks OK on paper, but i ahve offically never seen huntial in any tier in ADV or D/P so I felt inadequate to tier it. I guess it's mostly outclassed by other stuff, but it might be too much for NU

 

[Old Man Jenkins]

Not to mention there are few usable Trick Roomers in UU. The best is probably Claydol... and trick room -> explosion can be seen from miles away... -_-

If Clamperl doesn't sweep at that point, it's dead weight. Yay, you have a glass cannon that's slower than everything!!

Claydol, Solrock, Lunatone, Clamperl.

You have a team of 4 pokemon. Shove an Aromatherapy Meganium in there and a fast non-Trick Room revenge killer and you have a team.

Clamperl isn't as much of a glass cannon a you say. With HP EVs it can shrug off a SD Lucario Extremespeed at worst being 3HKOed.

OH CRAP I FORGOT ABOUT SKIDDLE. He's cool too.

 

[seds]

Uhhh, and you're just going to have three exploding psychics, just to support Clamperl... when Omastar and Kabutops could do it by themselves? I'm sorry, but I'm really not seeing this working out.

540 special attack is nothing short of amazing. I'll admit it. However, it's slow, it's frail, and it needs too much support to use. It's only 3HKOing Grumpig anyways, and he can probably OHKO it. There's also the Lanturn problem... no matter what Clamperl does, it has 3 turns to try to do it, and something will always wall it. Octillery can do just as good of a job, and he has better type coverage too.

I wouldn't complain too much about it though... if it gets booted to NU, you've got Xatu, Chimecho and Girafarig to set up for it, and there is fewer water resists down there.

 

[burnpsy]

OK, now for Dunsparce:

although its stats are all WAY than Togekiss (and low in general), it pulls off a ParaFlinch set quite nicely and that set usually carries Rock Slide, Knocking out all of those Bug and Flying types that are on that NU list, it would knock out most Pokemon in that tier before they can attack... probably works better for all under a UU heading...

@seds: thanks for telling me that my favourite type can be nice defensively :)