Garchomp and this Metagame

[Mr.E]

Well not in the past week or so since "SmogonShoddy" is up, but for the past couple months where we only had Colin's official server to play on and he unbanned it... Wobbuffet should've never been allowed in the first place. A competitive player should realize the impact of the free turns Wobbuffet is able to guarantee. Well, not guarantee, but only if you willingly let it kill you. :/ Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Also, you people arguing Blissey isn't neccessary; how many of you want to have to pack multiple special walls? You need three walls to handle most physical threats, and Blissey handles most special ones, so that leaves you with to sweepers... remove blissey and you'll either have a team full of walls, or Alakazam and Gengar will sweep you.

More like overcompensate on the special side and get swept by physical threats amirite. Why must the Special sweepers be discriminated against? Why is it okay for Tyranitar and Garchomp to run the metagame but not Gengar and Alakazam? Why not a physical "Blissey" and three Special walls on teams instead? Blissey is so strong [special] defensively that it severely constricts the metagame in terms of viable Special attackers. This is good?

you make it sound like dragon stab and base 130 attack is whatever despite outrage/draco metoer being pretty devastating moves.

id rather be eq neutral than sr weak to be honest

i dunno mre it sounds like you're trivializing garchomp despite his obscene usage rate.

Well Dragon isn't inherently stronger than any other type, base power is base power. Outrage and Meteor are stupidly strong still, but Outrage is rivaled in power by a super-effective blow (i.e. stronger than SE Ice Punch, tied with SE Earth Power, weaker than SE Ice Beam and EQ). Dragon Claw is weaker than all of EP/EQ/Ice Beam, period. Ice Beam will out-power Outrage on every Dragon not named Kingdra and a boatload of other crap weak to it too, has a 10% freeze rate, and doesn't Encore yourself with self-induced confusion tacked on afterward. Steel resists both Dragon/Ice and the Ground attack would largely cover Ice from its other resistances anyway. Ice/Ground > Dragon/Ground. Draco Meteor is its own beast but the Overheat-style attacks can hardly be compared to conventional ones directly.

SR weak, but immune to EQ. Intimidate with Fighting and Bug resists (sup Heracross), 4x Grass resist. Garchomp's only notable resistance is Rock, and an Electric immunity which is more useful in blocking T-Wave than it is at actually switching in against Tbolt or Tpunch (for various reasons, depending on their user). SR is somewhat of an equalizer, putting passive damage on Sal/'Nite/'Dos where Garchomp would just end up taking it directly from the enemy pokémon, but they do fare better when SR isn't present or have been Spun away.

Salamence also benefits greatly from its unpredictability. Draco Meteor has been its most consistent threat for a while now, so physical sets can catch people off-guard and sometimes lead to gravy kills against crap like Blissey or Heatran. There's no surprises when against Garchomp, and Chainchomp is mostly a past novelty by now. (Even so, that's pure metagaming. Salamence is a legitimate Special threat in its own right.) Dragonite really isn't much of a surprise itself, but its Outrage is still god-awful strong and DD gives it Speed that Garchomp doesn't have. I really only mentioned Gyarados because it also has an exploitable 4x weakness, it's a different beast altogether lacking Dragon STAB but having a primary attack that flinches. :/

Usage is largely irrelevant. Charizard is sniffing the OU line despite the prevalence of Stealth Rock, so what the hell makes it so good that lots of people are using it? Not a god damn thing, he's just the fanboy pokémon of choice, like swords or elves. It's interesting that Garchomp usage continues to rise but I don't think any conclusions can be drawn from that unless it starts to get really obscene. Hell, Blissey was on about every fifth team in Advance.

"He also gets finished off by Starmie, Infernape, Gengar, non-Ice Shard Weavile, you name it."

Yache.

SURPRISE you're a [jumpman made me edit it out so assume bad namecalling here] who doesn't seem to understand the concept of "finishing off" an already weakened pokémon. Garchomp isn't getting in there for free you know and a Starmie Ice Beam can still chunk off 2/3 of Garchomp's health even with Yache Berry. Assuming you already took a decent hit to switch in and put up Swords Dance, you're dead buddy. Hell, CB Weavile OHKOs [0 Def/HP] with Ice Punch through Yache Berry. Infernape and Gengar don't even need to rely on Ice attacks to swath half its health off in one go, Close Combat and Shadow Ball do the job well enough.

Salamence and Dragonite won't have these issues because Dragon Dance boosts Speed. Likewise, they are less able to OHKO mid-range defenses than Garchomp, stuff like Togekiss or Vaporeon which are generally sturdy but not hardcore physical tanks. It's a pretty balanced trade-off between DD and SD.

Once again, the only variable unaccounted for is... Most of the things that CAN kill Garchomp will FAIL 20% of the time. :/ (And 36% failure for two consecutive blows, 48.8% for three.) Yes, I'm going to continue restating that Sand Veil is the only major seperator between Garchomp and its contemporaries because it's true.

Sand Stream is the trait that's actually broken anyway, and Sand Veil is nothing without it. *shrug*

 

[Odinwolf]

Well Dragon isn't inherently stronger than any other type, base power is base power.

You wrote a huge wall of text but this is the only point I'm going to bother to argue for right now. Certain types are inherently stronger than others in Pokemon based on resistances and pokemon stats.

Based on effectiveness/resistances, Dragon is probably the single best type in the game. Nothing is immune to its attacks and only steel resists it. Fortunately, most dragons carry some kind of fire attack so unless you are packing a choice item, you can usually fell the "counter" sent in to beat you.

If we teeter into the more ambiguous realm of pokemon stats (and movepools), Dragons look even sexier. Most Dragons are created with some pretty hefty stat totals and pack attacks that blow away anything that isn't bulky and/or resistant. Being neutral to their attacks usually doesn't cut it. They also tend to get great stat-ups in Swords/Dragon Dance so if they switch in on something that can't dent them (EQ vs. Salamence, for instance) they are going to be hitting your counters even harder. Tack on those fire attacks and you've got a type that is generally superior to the others in the game.

If Dragons weren't so good, do you think so many pokes would have to carry Ice attacks? Ice is only as useful as it is because Dragon typing is so good. So yes, there are inherent, or at least emergent, qualities to Dragons that make the superior to other types. Base power is important to consider, but looking at the emerging principles of the game, you can't deny that Dragon typing is incredibly beneficial.

 

[D3FAULT]

If Dragons weren't so good, do you think so many pokes would have to carry Ice attacks? Ice is only as useful as it is because Dragon typing is so good. So yes, there are inherent, or at least emergent, qualities to Dragons that make the superior to other types. Base power is important to consider, but looking at the emerging principles of the game, you can't deny that Dragon typing is incredibly beneficial.

Ice types would still be used, regardless of Dragons for:

• STAB (Mamoswine, Weavile, etc)
• Flying, Ground, and Grass types, who are weak to it
• General good type (no Pokemon is immune to it, several take neutral damage)

So yes, there would probably be just as many Ice type attacks used.

edit: Okay, so Shedinja is immune to them, but he doesn't count. :p

 

[sanjay120]

SURPRISE you're a [jumpman made me edit it out so assume bad namecalling here] who doesn't seem to understand the concept of "finishing off" an already weakened pokémon.

You damaged it first? With what?

 

[CLegacyM]

More like overcompensate on the special side and get swept by physical threats amirite. Why must the Special sweepers be discriminated against? Why is it okay for Tyranitar and Garchomp to run the metagame but not Gengar and Alakazam? Why not a physical "Blissey" and three Special walls on teams instead? Blissey is so strong [special] defensively that it severely constricts the metagame in terms of viable Special attackers. This is good?

This is pretty much true. You guys just seem to be ignoring the fact that stuff like Gengar, Alakazam and other special pokemon are kept in check by Blissey rendering a lot of them damn near unuseable. Which is, why I said, you see a predominantly physical offensive game.

I think what most of you are afraid of, and this is pretty much backed up by the giant outcry of banning garchomp, is actually learning to play and acquire skill in the game rather than just relying on teams that have to be able to counter everything because it's easier. Heaven forbid that you actually have to make predictions and play well rather than just build a team that has counters to everything. Especially since this is almost the #1 reason for banning Garchomp (zomg he has no counters!!!!).

Anyway, in a metagame without stuff like Blissey you'd see an increase in creativity in teams and it would expand the game by a lot. It would force people to actually apply skill and learn how to play better rather than just relying on great teams that win for them. I mean, anyone can grab a very solid team that a great player has made and use it to instantly increase their ability to win. While I think that team building is important I think that actual skill should be equally important and it is very underemphasized in this metagame.

 

[Mr.E]

Sanjay... Probably with the pokémon that Garchomp switched in against or had switched in against it. :/ It could also be the ninja space cowboy shooting you at a distance with his ray gun but I can't confirm that.

The Dragon type is an okay attacking type based solely off its lack of resists, which works well for the actual Dragons that use them since the likes of Dragonite, Salamence, and Garchomp are all absurdly strong and boast their impressive 600 base stat totals. (Kingdra not so much. ) Dragon is pretty good as a single attack type since then you would be concerned with heavy resistance.

In combination, Dragon loses much of its luster because it lacks type advantages. Ice/Ground is hardly resisted by anything at all. Another great attack combination, Fighting/Ghost, is resisted by nothing at all. (It's cousin, Fighting/Dark, is also only resisted by Heracross and Toxicroak of note.) The same can be said for Dragon/Ground or Dragon/Fire, but they're slightly inferior because they hit super-effective on fewer things. Think about it: Dragon/Ground (i.e. Garchomp) is resisted only by two pokémon, Dragon/Fire only by Heatran. However, they only hit six and five different types, respectively, for double damage. Ice/Ground is likewise resisted only by Levitate Bronzong but hit nine types for double, over half.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Well Dragon isn't inherently stronger than any other type, base power is base power. Outrage and Meteor are stupidly strong still, but Outrage is rivaled in power by a super-effective blow (i.e. stronger than SE Ice Punch, tied with SE Earth Power, weaker than SE Ice Beam and EQ). Dragon Claw is weaker than all of EP/EQ/Ice Beam, period. Ice Beam will out-power Outrage on every Dragon not named Kingdra and a boatload of other crap weak to it too, has a 10% freeze rate, and doesn't Encore yourself with self-induced confusion tacked on afterward. Steel resists both Dragon/Ice and the Ground attack would largely cover Ice from its other resistances anyway. Ice/Ground > Dragon/Ground. Draco Meteor is its own beast but the Overheat-style attacks can hardly be compared to conventional ones directly.

In combination, Dragon loses much of its luster because it lacks type advantages.

Dragon is the best attacking type in the game, hands down. Neutrality to everything sans one type is much more valuable than hurting some things for SE damage. The moves aren't always more powerful, although they certainly aren't lackluster either. Draco Meteor, Outrage and Dragon Claw are three of the best moves in the game. I really am baffled that you think that Dragon is not a great attacking type in D/P.

Neutrality IS a type advantage, especially with the amazing resistances that Dragon typing gives.

SR weak, but immune to EQ. Intimidate with Fighting and Bug resists (sup Heracross), 4x Grass resist. Garchomp's only notable resistance is Rock, and an Electric immunity which is more useful in blocking T-Wave than it is at actually switching in against Tbolt or Tpunch (for various reasons, depending on their user). SR is somewhat of an equalizer, putting passive damage on Sal/'Nite/'Dos where Garchomp would just end up taking it directly from the enemy pokémon, but they do fare better when SR isn't present or have been Spun away.

A lot more pokemon use Stealth Rock than they do Earthquake. Garchomp also has a notable resistance to Fire. Having a resistance to Rock is worth much more than you are giving it credit for, especially considering the nearly omnipresent Stealth Rock. Yache Garchomp would not be as dominant if it started at 75% HP while taking Sand Stream damage on every turn, but it works wonders at 94% while being immune to the only OU weather effect.

Dragon/Flying is worse typing than Dragon/Ground. Sure you can come in on Fighting attacks, but you are punished every single time you come in even though you have the resistance. This lowers how much you can actually sweep, eliminating most of your usefulness before you even start. On top of that, Flying STAB is worthless whereas Ground STAB (which is SE against the only type that resists its other STAB, mind you) makes Garchomp the potent offensive threat that it is.

Salamence also benefits greatly from its unpredictability.

Unpredictability is also something that is, to me, far more dangerous. As long as you know what Garchomp is doing, although there might not be a 100% counter, you can at least play around it. The same can't be said for something you don't know the set to.

Salamence's power is boosted by its unpredictability. Garchomp doesnt NEED to be unpredictable to be by far the most used OU pokemon. Why bother with a gimmick set when you can 2HKO literally every single pokemon with SD/Outrage/EQ/Fire Fang?

And even then, Garchomp can be extremely unpredictable. Just the other day I switched my Gliscor into Garchomp to eliminate its Yache Berry, not KO it and get 2HKOd in return and be forced to have a faster revenge killer as per usual but instead I got hit by Surf and I was OHKOd.

Usage is largely irrelevant. Charizard is sniffing the OU line despite the prevalence of Stealth Rock, so what the hell makes it so good that lots of people are using it? Not a god damn thing, he's just the fanboy pokémon of choice, like swords or elves. It's interesting that Garchomp usage continues to rise but I don't think any conclusions can be drawn from that unless it starts to get really obscene. Hell, Blissey was on about every fifth team in Advance.

Again, pointing to the usage statistics doesn't mean anything. Blissey was on top of the usage statistics for how long? And by how much?

Advance usage arguments aren't relevant because they can't be proven and because this isn't Advance. Garchomp usage continues to rise because stopping it cripples your opponent's entire team.

It's also worth noting that Garchomp's usage is 10 million points (almost 7000 usages per month) higher than Blissey's ever was. And this is even AFTER Deoxys-Speed was introduced into the game. Garchomp has been at the top of the usage list for 6 months, which is twice as long as Blissey was at #1 OU. To me, this kind of usage is on the "obscene" level.

SURPRISE you're a [jumpman made me edit it out so assume bad namecalling here] who doesn't seem to understand the concept of "finishing off" an already weakened pokémon. Garchomp isn't getting in there for free you know and a Starmie Ice Beam can still chunk off 2/3 of Garchomp's health even with Yache Berry. Assuming you already took a decent hit to switch in and put up Swords Dance, you're dead buddy. Hell, CB Weavile OHKOs [0 Def/HP] with Ice Punch through Yache Berry. Infernape and Gengar don't even need to rely on Ice attacks to swath half its health off in one go, Close Combat and Shadow Ball do the job well enough.

Ok, once again, swathing off half of somethings health, getting OHKOd, and THEN having to have something faster than Garchomp means that you still lose. Weavile is not a great pokemon, and if it was actually as good as you say, people wouldnt use it 3 times less than Garchomp. Are you really going to switch Weavile in against a Garchomp? On top of that, everything that youre saying that can attempt to revenge kill Garchomp doesnt fit on every kind of team. What place does Weavile have on a stall team? What about Infernape?

And the whole "even though it requires two pokemon to beat, after Garchomp gets its first KO it is at low HP" argument is ignoring a pretty important part of the situation: Garchomp is still alive and one of your teammates is not.

Salamence and Dragonite won't have these issues because Dragon Dance boosts Speed. Likewise, they are less able to OHKO mid-range defenses than Garchomp, stuff like Togekiss or Vaporeon which are generally sturdy but not hardcore physical tanks. It's a pretty balanced trade-off between DD and SD.

Garchomp doesnt NEED to boost its speed. A +2 Atk boost with 333 Speed is much, much more valuable than only a +1 Atk boost with 405 Speed (270 is standard DDMence IIRC). It normally is a balanced trade-off between DD and SD (example: Rayquaza) but the trade-off between DD Salamence and SD Garchomp is not balanced.

I think what most of you are afraid of, and this is pretty much backed up by the giant outcry of banning garchomp, is actually learning to play and acquire skill in the game rather than just relying on teams that have to be able to counter everything because it's easier. Heaven forbid that you actually have to make predictions and play well rather than just build a team that has counters to everything. Especially since this is almost the #1 reason for banning Garchomp (zomg he has no counters!!!!).

In a game where countering everything is already impossible, adding a pokemon that can easily beat all of its potential counters by itself is broken and overcentralizing. Having good sweepers that require thought to defeat isn't a bad thing. It is unhealthy for a competitive metagame to allow a pokemon that requires no skill to use while being as effective as Garchomp is.

 

[Mr.E]

Dragon is the best attacking type in the game, hands down. Neutrality to everything sans one type is much more valuable than hurting some things for SE damage. ...

Oh no, it's probably the best single attack type in the game. It loses its luster in combination with other attack types because Dragon already hits nearly everything unresisted and the second attack doesn't bring a whole lot to the table. Concerning the aforementioned type combos, hardly anything resists those either. (Absolutely nothing for Fighting/Ghost, in fact.) Once you're at that point, type advantages win out over lack of resists because the other type attack covers against any resistors anyway.

Flying/Fighting is also only resisted by two pokémon (Zapdos and Rotom) and has eight type advantages. There may be others I don't care about trying to figure out.

"Garchomp also has a notable resistance to Fire."

Fire is hardly notable, it's basically synonymous with "Heatran" and all of the dragons (and Gyarados) resist it anyway.

"Dragon/Flying is worse typing than Dragon/Ground. Sure you can come in on Fighting attacks, but you are punished every single time you come in even though you have the resistance. This lowers how much you can actually sweep, eliminating most of your usefulness before you even start. On top of that, Flying STAB is worthless whereas Ground STAB (which is SE against the only type that resists its other STAB, mind you) makes Garchomp the potent offensive threat that it is."

It doesn't eliminate Salamence's ability to sweep, switching into SR and taking 10-20% damage, any more than Garchomp is unable to sweep after shrugging off SR but taking 30%+ damage getting in and/or setting up. (Unless you switch into Rock damage, the only notable of which is CBTar.) Flying STAB is useless, but Flying is better defensively and Garchomp only uses its Ground STAB on two or three things anyway. (Metagross and T-Tar come to mind.) It's all about the SD Dragon attack with a side of Fire Fang to cover the likes of Skarmory and Bronzong. :/

"And even then, Garchomp can be extremely unpredictable."

Technically so, yes Garchomp really isn't all that one-dimensional. It's quite rare to see Special off-sets, though, and it's only useful due to the surprise factor. Both physical and special Salamence are dangerous in their own right and it does mixed sets better too, you really have to be on your toes until you know its moveset. Physical isn't even what most people expect when they first see it either.

"Advance usage arguments aren't relevant because they can't be proven and because this isn't Advance. Garchomp usage continues to rise because stopping it cripples your opponent's entire team."

It's the exact same argument. 'Garchomp is being used by an awful lot of people, it must be overpowered!' Pray tell why heavy usage correlates to overpoweredness when it's never been viewed as such before. Who cares that Garchomp is used more than Blissey right now? Great, so are seven other pokémon (in weighted usage, which is what you referenced). Are Gengar, Gyarados, Bronzong, T-Tar, Heatran, and Lucario all overpowered too?

I'd give outside "proof" of Blissey's Advance usage but I assume most of the stats died when the NB forums went down. :/ You'll just have to take my word for it, sorry bub. Blissey topped out around 20% and nearly doubled the next most-used pokémon, Garchomp isn't even near those kind of figures yet as far as I hear. (It would be great if anyone else is able to dredge something to back me up here, or even disprove.)

"And the whole "even though it requires two pokemon to beat, after Garchomp gets its first KO it is at low HP" argument is ignoring a pretty important part of the situation: Garchomp is still alive and one of your teammates is not."

Plenty others also "require" multiple pokémon to take them down. Salamence and Dragonite can pull the same crap with DD that Garchomp can. Lucario can SD too, packs priority, and has opponents in the dark about its moveset. Deoxys-S is nigh-unspeedable and has such an insane movepool that potentially nothing is safe. Consider yourself lucky if you only give up one kill to Metagross or Gengar, they pack suicide moves.

Of course, it's never as simple as "use [these pokémon] for guaranteed victory," even for Garchomp. And what does that attitude say about defensive pokémon? The likes of Blissey, Skarmory, Gliscor are hardly useless despite the fact they typically don't directly kill anything.

"Garchomp doesnt NEED to boost its speed. A +2 Atk boost with 333 Speed is much, much more valuable than only a +1 Atk boost with 405 Speed (270 is standard DDMence IIRC). It normally is a balanced trade-off between DD and SD (example: Rayquaza) but the trade-off between DD Salamence and SD Garchomp is not balanced."

Simply put, I disagree. They are merely weaker to different things. Garchomp will takes hits against stuff like Gengar or Scarfcross, Salamence will take hits from stuff like Metagross (no Ground STAB) and Snorlax (may fail to 2HKO).

All else being equal, I still consider DD the better buff. It allows for lower Speed, freeing up EVs for defenses and possibly trading in the +Speed personality for +Attack. (Dragonite can't hit the 'coveted' 270 without +Speed, but even at 259 the only extra pokémon able to outspeed him are Jolteon and Aerodactyl.) The ratio of power between one SD and one DD is 4/3 (~33%), yet one-SD Jolly Garchomp is less than 20% stronger than one-DD Adamant Salamence. And not only is it easier to DD twice than it is to SD twice, since moving from second attack to first attack is a free turn, but the benefit is greater for doing so. (Two SD is usually overkill anyway, a second DD brings you up to one-SD power and has you outspeeding even the likes of Deoxys-S.)

 

[Fatality]

Hmm... On DD v SD, I'd have to go with SD. In 1 turn you double your attack. For DD Mence to get higher Attack than Chomp in 1 turn it needs a Life Orb. Now it is hurting itself when it attacks, AND has no "extra life" that Yache Chomp has. Also, Salamence is hurt every turn from SS instead of having its evasion increased. Intimidate is nice, but putting a LO on it ruins the tankish nature of the Ability.

 

[CLegacyM]

Ok...and then you have roost, Fatality. Now you've got an SD a speed boost and a way of healing yourself.

 

[CLegacyM]

Advance usage arguments aren't relevant because they can't be proven and because this isn't Advance. Garchomp usage continues to rise because stopping it cripples your opponent's entire team.

It's also worth noting that Garchomp's usage is 10 million points (almost 7000 usages per month) higher than Blissey's ever was. And this is even AFTER Deoxys-Speed was introduced into the game. Garchomp has been at the top of the usage list for 6 months, which is twice as long as Blissey was at #1 OU. To me, this kind of usage is on the "obscene" level.

Just give me a moment to laugh at the thought of my team being crippled to try and stop Garchomp......ok done.

Also, I don't know, maybe you guys weren't following along with the usages but let me just point something out.

First of all, since the beginning Garchomp has been in second place in usage to Blissey. (At least since the beginning of usage statistics.) Anyway, Blissey started at 4000 more usages, rose to 6000 more usages and at one point was nearly getting 7000 more usages than Garchomp.

Something you have to keep in mind is that more and more people have been playing more and more often so of course the figures are going to look much better for Garchomp now as there are more people playing. But the reality is Blissey was used nearly as often as Garchomp at the beginning of D/P and continued to rise the entire time until Garchomp became more popular.

This is just saying don't bring up usage statistics. I mean, I just did a calculation of the top 10 pokemon and what percentage of usages both Garchomp and Blissey made and Garchomp hit 15% while Blissey had 14.4%. This is just of the top ten, mind you. This is in D/P, too, where Garchomp, Gyarados and other pokemon took a huge bite out of Blissey's usage to begin with. In ADV Blissey would have been much higher, but again, no statistics to back that up. Anyone that played ADV though can vouch for it.

Just stop using usage statistics to try and back up Garchomp being banned because it holds no weight in comparison to Blissey.

In a game where countering everything is already impossible, adding a pokemon that can easily beat all of its potential counters by itself is broken and overcentralizing. Having good sweepers that require thought to defeat isn't a bad thing. It is unhealthy for a competitive metagame to allow a pokemon that requires no skill to use while being as effective as Garchomp is.

Lol. You think that something like Garchomp requires no skill to use? You also think that it wont be evident which player is more skillful when it is brought out? That's a joke. I won't even both replying to that.

It's just like you said -- in this metagame it's impossible to counter everything ANYWAY. So when that fails what do you ahve to do? Resort to working around them when they do show up. Why should that be any different for something like Garchomp? Admittedly even if it doesn't have counters, it isn't so broken as to sweep your whole team and leave you no chance of beating it. Truthfully, you guys talk about it guaranteeing at least one kill and blah blah. But if you play around it you can probably avoid that if you are playing well enough.

Also, what makes that overcentralizing? I know you'll say that people are overpreparing for Garchomp -- but people always need to carry at least two pokemon that can beat Blissey, too. If they don't they can get their whole team ****ed by one pokemon. Whereas even if you don't carry two counters for Garchomp you can usually beat it through sheer offense and stuff like spikes, etc. How would teams even change if Garchomp was out? They would, majoritally, remain the same! Whereas if Blissey were taken out I guarantee to you that teams would all go through drastic changes. Tell me which pokemon affects the metagame more.

 

[Shiny Crobat]

1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?
I think my teams wouldn't change dramatically. I try to use my counters for multiple purposes, so even without Garchomp the Pokemon in my team are valuable.


2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?
Yes, but that is because it's threatening. In every generation there are Pokemon that are more threatening than other Pokemon. That's inevitable.


3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?
I do have more than one Pokemon to "deal" with Garchomp, but I try to do that with every Pokemon that is used a lot. Sometimes there is no room to cover every Pokemon I want to, but I try to at least cover Garchomp.

4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?
Of course it does. But I think almost every threatening Pokemon does that. Does Heracross influence Gliscor usage (as a wall)? Yes. I think a lot of Pokemon impact the popularity of certain sets. But to answer your question: yes, it does.

5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp.

Yes, Lucario and Gyarados. But this is simply because the variaty of possible sets. I do not think there is another Pokemon as centralizing though.

 

[CLegacyM]

Actually, Dragon isn't the best attacking type in the game. There was a statistical analysis done by X-Act on that subject and I think it was Ice, Rock and Fighting that were on the top. I can't remember the exact order -- but Dragon wasn't even top 3.

 

[Game Freak201]

1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?
No, I usually use offensive teams and dependent on outspeeding/revenge killing Garchomp and other "uncounterable" pokemon rather than actually countering so to speak.

2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?
Not really, I usually have BoltBeamers and fast pokemon with Scarfs and an Ice move to take care of it. I find myself needing a way to revenge kill Deoxys-E more than taking down Garchomp due to its insane speed and wide movepool.

4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?
Yes, but Garchomp isn't unique in this matter. Blissey is the reason why some special sweepers choose to run Explosion or Focus Punch. Also, Skarmory causes Garchomp to use Fire Blast as opposed to Fire Fang on non-SD sets.

5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp.
Yes, SDLuke is a very serious threat IMO. With a major attack boost and +1 prioty moves to take care of things that are faster than it, Lucario can be a beast. And with Stealth Rock up, he OHKOs many more things.

 

[CLegacyM]

For the statistics on the attacking types here are the links:

This is without taking pokemon usage into account. So it's just overall.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42012

This is taking pokemon usage into account.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1282559&postcount=32

So as you can see Dragon is nowhere near one of the best attacking types in the game.

 

[Fatality]

Ok...and then you have roost, Fatality. Now you've got an SD a speed boost and a way of healing yourself.

With Roost and DD, pick: Skarmory and Levitating Bronzong, or Heatran and Heatproof Bronzong. With Dclaw and EQ you are walled by the first two. With Dclaw and Fire Blast/Fang you're walled by the ladder pair. If you do EQ and Fire Blast/Fang then you're walled by anything Flying Fire resists, such as Gyarados and opposing Salamence.

Not that I don't like Mence, I love it. It can do a ton of things (like we're saying)...

Another thing: after all these Speed Boosts (even 1 really), you outrun a lot, making you voulnerable when you Roost. Not being hit by EQ, being hit in general. Mence could easily lose 50%~ from an attack.

 

[blasphemy1]

1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how? Not really. Typically I find myself using ice moves anyways since Salamence is IMO the most immediate OU threat.
2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building? NO. I always try and prepare for Gengar, Heracross, Salamence, and Gyarados first, then I get to Garchomp.
3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it? Typically I have more than one way but I never have just one, since STAB Surfs hurt more than a non-STAB Ice Beam reduced by Yache Berry.
4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon? Yes, we wouldn't really see Cresselia using such defensive spreads with Ice Beam/Reflect.
5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp. Yes, I believe Gengar, Gyarados, and Salamence are as threatening.

 

[sanjay120]

1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how? Probably a different typed Hidden Power on my Roserade, otherwise, no.
2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building? I don't prepare for anything when team building. I toss something together around a theme, battle with it, and fix accordingly.
3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it? HP Ice Scarf Roserade, Tangrowth can take an attack or two, Forretress can Gyro Ball when it's stuck on Outrage. I've bluffed Scarftran a few times by switching in on not-EQ and Shedinja has burned it on Outrages. And this is just my main team.
4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon? I'm sure it does. Cresselia, Weavile, etc.
5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp? Well, I don't know about other people, but I have more problems with Gengar and Deoxys-S (though only when some spikes are up because Sheddy :D). I'm sure I could fix it with a few tweaks though.

When I use a different team, Garchomp always completely kills me. This might be because other than my main the only good teams I have ever built were mono-Grass (which is gimmicky anyways but outside of Garchomp and Heracross it does pretty well) and an Ubers team.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

So as you can see Dragon is nowhere near one of the best attacking types in the game.

Dragon's neutrality combined with extremely reliable accuracy makes it a very potent attack type. Even if it doesnt always have the advantage, it never has a disadvantage.

It's just like you said -- in this metagame it's impossible to counter everything ANYWAY. So when that fails what do you ahve to do? Resort to working around them when they do show up. Why should that be any different for something like Garchomp? Admittedly even if it doesn't have counters, it isn't so broken as to sweep your whole team and leave you no chance of beating it. Truthfully, you guys talk about it guaranteeing at least one kill and blah blah. But if you play around it you can probably avoid that if you are playing well enough.

If you guess its moves right, you can win. Sure. But I would rather not be forced to rely on guessing to win.

Introducing a pokemon that can beat all of its potential counters is much different than having so many pokemon that countering all of them with 6 is next to impossible. I don't know how you could even make a comparison like that.

Also, what makes that overcentralizing? I know you'll say that people are overpreparing for Garchomp -- but people always need to carry at least two pokemon that can beat Blissey, too. If they don't they can get their whole team ****ed by one pokemon. Whereas even if you don't carry two counters for Garchomp you can usually beat it through sheer offense and stuff like spikes, etc. How would teams even change if Garchomp was out? They would, majoritally, remain the same! Whereas if Blissey were taken out I guarantee to you that teams would all go through drastic changes. Tell me which pokemon affects the metagame more.

The fact that it cant be countered isn't what makes it overcentralizing. That is what makes it overpowered. The fact is that Garchomp is literally overcentralizing by taking up more and more of the 75% cutoff mark in determining OU status. The overcentralization is supported by the fact that the OU tier is shrinking (it is now down to 45).

Fire is hardly notable, it's basically synonymous with "Heatran" and all of the dragons (and Gyarados) resist it anyway.

Ok so being able to switch into Heatran and Infernape's Fire attacks is a bad thing? Every resistance is a notable resistance.

It doesn't eliminate Salamence's ability to sweep, switching into SR and taking 10-20% damage, any more than Garchomp is unable to sweep after shrugging off SR but taking 30%+ damage getting in and/or setting up. (Unless you switch into Rock damage, the only notable of which is CBTar.) Flying STAB is useless, but Flying is better defensively and Garchomp only uses its Ground STAB on two or three things anyway. (Metagross and T-Tar come to mind.) It's all about the SD Dragon attack with a side of Fire Fang to cover the likes of Skarmory and Bronzong. :/

Uh, what? lol.

I would say that losing 50% of your HP before you even get an attack off is going to put a serious damper on your sweep. Even if you don't decide to use its Flying resistances to help you come in, you are still losing 25%. Garchomp would not be an issue if it were Stealth Rock weak.

Ok, so you say that Ground STAB is bad but then you go on to say that its for Tyranitar and Metagross (and Heatran too)? That sounds pretty damn useful to me. Flying is not always better defensively because of the aforementioned Stealth Rock. Sure, you take less damage from hits but you wind up taking comparable damage because of Stealth Rock anyways.

Technically so, yes Garchomp really isn't all that one-dimensional. It's quite rare to see Special off-sets, though, and it's only useful due to the surprise factor. Both physical and special Salamence are dangerous in their own right and it does mixed sets better too, you really have to be on your toes until you know its moveset. Physical isn't even what most people expect when they first see it either.

SDChomp is more dangerous than Physical and Special Salamence combined. The fact that Garchomp can be the best sweeper in the game while being one-dimensional for the most part is a testament to how overpowered it actually is. Salamence is relying on that switch to Blissey to get free Dragon Dances, whereas Garchomp just SDs on the switch and wins regardless of what comes in.

It's the exact same argument. 'Garchomp is being used by an awful lot of people, it must be overpowered!' Pray tell why heavy usage correlates to overpoweredness when it's never been viewed as such before. Who cares that Garchomp is used more than Blissey right now? Great, so are seven other pokémon (in weighted usage, which is what you referenced). Are Gengar, Gyarados, Bronzong, T-Tar, Heatran, and Lucario all overpowered too?

It is not the whole argument, its a part of the argument. Usage has always been an indicating factor of "overpoweredness" (look at why some people argued to keep Deoxys in OU). You seem to have missed the point completely. I don't care that Garchomp is being used more than Blissey right now, I care that its being used more than every other pokemon ever has been. More than 7000 usages than the #2 pokemon is quite the feat. It is literally centralizing the game by taking up more and more of the 75% of usages that OU focuses on. I just had three matches in a row come down to a Garchomp speed tie.

I'd give outside "proof" of Blissey's Advance usage but I assume most of the stats died when the NB forums went down. :/ You'll just have to take my word for it, sorry bub. Blissey topped out around 20% and nearly doubled the next most-used pokémon, Garchomp isn't even near those kind of figures yet as far as I hear. (It would be great if anyone else is able to dredge something to back me up here, or even disprove.)

This kinda isnt related to the argument at hand (since its still advance), but I would also like to see these if they still exist.

Plenty others also "require" multiple pokémon to take them down. Salamence and Dragonite can pull the same crap with DD that Garchomp can. Lucario can SD too, packs priority, and has opponents in the dark about its moveset. Deoxys-S is nigh-unspeedable and has such an insane movepool that potentially nothing is safe. Consider yourself lucky if you only give up one kill to Metagross or Gengar, they pack suicide moves.

No, no other pokemon require the amount of preparation that Garchomp does. Every other pokemon set in OU has counters. Pokemon that you think "guarantee" a KO in the same sense that Garchomp does relies on the fact that teams can't counter everything, and some teams completely rely on revenge killing for advantages. Metagross is stopped cold by Hippowdon and Suicune, but Garchomp does not have that kind of counter to be found anywhere (except for Lugia). If "prediction" and "playing around it" are really the best counters, then I don't see how the argument could be made that it isn't uber. Relying on guesswork as the best option does not really sound like a fun game to play to me.

Salamence and Dragonite can pull the same crap as Garchomp can? lol. If that was even close to being true, we would not be having this argument. Your statement really makes me doubt how much you've actually played D/P and how much your opinion is based off of things that actually happen in the game.

Simply put, I disagree. They are merely weaker to different things. Garchomp will takes hits against stuff like Gengar or Scarfcross, Salamence will take hits from stuff like Metagross (no Ground STAB) and Snorlax (may fail to 2HKO).

They are weak to different things, Garchomp can just overcome the things he's weak to. That is the difference.

All else being equal, I still consider DD the better buff. It allows for lower Speed, freeing up EVs for defenses and possibly trading in the +Speed personality for +Attack. (Dragonite can't hit the 'coveted' 270 without +Speed, but even at 259 the only extra pokémon able to outspeed him are Jolteon and Aerodactyl.) The ratio of power between one SD and one DD is 4/3 (~33%), yet one-SD Jolly Garchomp is less than 20% stronger than one-DD Adamant Salamence. And not only is it easier to DD twice than it is to SD twice, since moving from second attack to first attack is a free turn, but the benefit is greater for doing so. (Two SD is usually overkill anyway, a second DD brings you up to one-SD power and has you outspeeding even the likes of Deoxys-S.)

Ok, so if you want to take two turns to set up instead of one, be my guest. In D/P it is extremely difficult to spend two turns in a row setting up. This is why SDChomp is so dominant. Why would you SD twice when you can SD once and attack twice? Your scenario is based off of a huge misunderstanding of how people actually play.

 

[Mr.E]

long post is long :/ edit: gj i cut it down

"Ok, so you say that Ground STAB is bad but then you go on to say that its for Tyranitar and Metagross (and Heatran too)? "

Heatran is 4x weak to Ground and will die even to Salamence's EQ. Salamence is really the victor here, it can outspeed Scarftran.

"SDChomp is more dangerous than Physical and Special Salamence combined. ... Salamence is relying on that switch to Blissey to get free Dragon Dances, whereas Garchomp just SDs on the switch and wins regardless of what comes in."

Garchomp relies on Yache Berry to [nearly] guarantee avoiding OHKOs, you say? *shrug*

Just about everything else is "lol swords dance is 2 gud" so I really don't even give a shit about continuing to respond, but:

"They are weak to different things, Garchomp can just overcome the things he's weak to. That is the difference."

How does Garchomp avoid getting outsped and killed by faster pokémon. Besides literally AVOIDING 20% of the time, that is. ~_~ SD Garchomp can't stop Starmie from going first and Ice Beaming it, it can only hope to still be over 60% health or so (dependent on Starmie's EVs) and have its Yache Berry intact. It's not "overcoming" anything.

"Ok, so if you want to take two turns to set up instead of one, be my guest. In D/P it is extremely difficult to spend two turns in a row setting up. This is why SDChomp is so dominant. Why would you SD twice when you can SD once and attack twice? Your scenario is based off of a huge misunderstanding of how people actually play."

You're not getting it. Of course you're not going to SD twice because there's no point in doing so. It's usually just tacking on more overkill damage, so why bother?

If you go from slower than your opponent to faster than your opponent, you've essentially gained a free turn. Thus, Dragon Dance has additional opportunities to buff a second time beyond "oh the opponent can't OHKO me this turn" moments sometimes found elsewhere. This second DD is also much more useful than a second SD would be, since the Attack buff isn't overdone (an equal +2 to the singular SD) and extra Speed is always welcome for select cases beyond the 400 range (Deoxys-S namely).

 

[jrrrrrrr]

How does Garchomp avoid getting outsped and killed by faster pokémon. Besides literally AVOIDING 20% of the time, that is. ~_~ SD Garchomp can't stop Starmie from going first and Ice Beaming it, it can only hope to still be over 60% health or so (dependent on Starmie's EVs) and have its Yache Berry intact. It's not "overcoming" anything.

Well considering that in this scenario, Garchomp is still alive and Starmie isn't, I would say that Garchomp just overcame its Starmie weakness.

If you go from slower than your opponent to faster than your opponent, you've essentially gained a free turn. Thus, Dragon Dance has additional opportunities to buff a second time beyond "oh the opponent can't OHKO me this turn" moments sometimes found elsewhere. This second DD is also much more useful than a second SD would be, since the Attack buff isn't overdone (an equal +2 to the singular SD) and extra Speed is always welcome for select cases beyond the 400 range (Deoxys-S namely).

Deoxys' presense alone pretty much means that you need two Dragon Dances before you can even hope to sweep. I'm not arguing about the merits of SD vs DD since Garchomp does not get Dragon Dance (thank God). Who cares how useful two Dragon Dances are when you can't get two turns to set ANYTHING up in D/P? You will only get one turn, if any, to set up. This is why SDChomp is more powerful than DDMence. It's just simply more practical to use with the speed of the D/P metagame.

Even if someone doesn't think that Garchomp is "that big of a deal" or if someones team "can handle Garchomp", how can anyone deny the fact that the entire OU metagame is being centralized on Garchomp? Garchomp has produced an 8% drop in the number of OU pokemon by itself and it doesn't seem to be slowing down any time soon. The OU tier has lost three pokemon in the last month (not including wobbuffet). How much more does the game have to focus on one pokemon before people realize how unhealthy and stale the metagame is getting?

 

[mien]

Dragon is not a good offensive typing having a super effective attack against only one pokemon doesn't give much coverage .
Outside for Dragons no pokemon uses dragon moves

The reason why Dragons are good is because of their high stats not because Dragon is a great typing.
If infernape would have the same stats and ability as salamence he would have been uber by now

1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?
Yes, I use Garchomp as an essential part of my team and several ev spreads of my team are made to counter Garchomp better
2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?
No, I have more troubles countering Tyranitar and Lucario
3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?
Yes, one full counter being Wallrein and 2 revenge killers
4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?
Yes, I think banning garchomp would have a huge impact on the current fast paced metagame. Garchomp made things like Scarftran,DDmence,Scarfgar,Jollyrachy and Deoxs-E much more popular to make revenge killing possible
5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp.
No

 

[Taylor]

How would teams even change if Garchomp was out? They would, majoritally, remain the same!

I think most people have confessed that their respective teams would change dramatically if Garchomp is banished from the OU metagame.

Whereas if Blissey were taken out I guarantee to you that teams would all go through drastic changes.

Of course it would.

Tell me which pokemon affects the metagame more.

Who's presense is for the better of the metagame?

Maybe Blissey would influence the metagame more (clearly not for the better) if she were banned, but remember that Blissey upholds some sort of law in the OU metagame. If she were to be banned, then extreme chaos would arise in the metagame, becomming too uncontrollable with all the array of special attacks, and understandably the metagame becomes even more centralized than it is now. Garchomp however is entirely the opposite, as there's a considerable ammount of agreement that the metagame would become a little less centralized; allowing more diversity.

 

[Imran]

Maybe Blissey would influence the metagame more (clearly not for the better) if she were banned, but remember that Blissey upholds some sort of law in the OU metagame. If she were to be banned, then extreme chaos would arise in the metagame, becomming too uncontrollable with all the array of special attacks, and understandably the metagame becomes even more centralized than it is now. Garchomp however is entirely the opposite, as there's a considerable ammount of agreement that the metagame would become a little less centralized; allowing more diversity.

Even people who don't use blissey benefit from having it in the metagame. I can build a team with out worrying about specail attacking chaos in the metagame. Because a team has to prepare for blissey, you have the advantage if you use something else, that's a free spot. Without Blissey, well Taylor gave a much better Explaination of it than i could

 

[CLegacyM]

So what you are essentially saying is you'd rather play with one side of the coin. Let's just play in a metagame where physical attackers can run wild and limit the special attackers because it's easier that way (let's not forget that it makes the OU metagame much smaller and it means we can cover all the threats effectively too!!).

Dragon's neutrality combined with extremely reliable accuracy makes it a very potent attack type. Even if it doesnt always have the advantage, it never has a disadvantage.

Neutrality =/= one of the best in the game. Especially considering that you are always trying to do the most damage possible.

If you guess its moves right, you can win. Sure. But I would rather not be forced to rely on guessing to win.

Introducing a pokemon that can beat all of its potential counters is much different than having so many pokemon that countering all of them with 6 is next to impossible. I don't know how you could even make a comparison like that.

"Guessing right" is just to avoid losing one pokemon. At most you should never lose more than one pokemon to Garchomp unless your opponent has outplayed you thoroughly and youre entire team is weakened and/or slower than Garchomp. Again, you just fail to realize that all of its potential counters will cripple it if it stays in to try and kill them. So they lose their most potent attacking threat and you just lose the pokemon that was there to counter it in the first place. You are, if anything, in a better position than when you started because his best offensive threat is gone while all you've lost is your counter to it which was designed to beat/cripple it in the first place. Duh.

The fact that it cant be countered isn't what makes it overcentralizing. That is what makes it overpowered. The fact is that Garchomp is literally overcentralizing by taking up more and more of the 75% cutoff mark in determining OU status. The overcentralization is supported by the fact that the OU tier is shrinking (it is now down to 45).

Again, it's not overpowered especially since its counters end up crippling it anyway unless you've been outplayed and I already mentioned how that puts you at a more advantageous position anyway. I don't know about the OU tier shrinking because I haven't been around for a while and I don't know what marks the cutoff in usage for the OU tier.