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Garchomp and this Metagame

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Mr.E said:
I find it ironic that you would agree with the "Garchomp is overpowered" sentiment in the same post you basically said Cresselia is a hard counter to it, killing it outright or at least crippling it and setting up for a possible revenge kill (depending on if Outrage locks in at two or three turns) even if Garchomp is at full health and Cresselia is the one switching into it.
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Actually, I'm pretty sure you should read before saying things. I said that Cress WOULD be a hard counter to Garchomp if SD Outrage didn't 2HKO it. Since it does, Cress isn't a hard counter to Garchomp. Taking any one of a number of options off of Garchomp can make it less overpowered, but no one option removes the OPness entirely.

I really don't appreciate Straw Man arguments that ignore the point I'm making in favor of one that you can fight effectively. Garchomp is overpowered because of a number of things that combine. Banning one of them doesn't make the others any less overwhelming.
 
CLegacyM said:
Actually as soon as you remove Yache berry there is no argument for Garchomp being overpowered.
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Garchomp was already No1 in usage before Yache became popular
Alhough Yache is popular not every Garchomp carries it, CB and Scarfchomp are equally common. The only version of Garchomp that is never seen is Chainchomp.
 
^based on what data?

Anyway, while I don't agree with spouting data based on no data, I do know that people have been bitching about chomp long before yache-chomp became common.
 
Until it misses, through no fault of your own. And there's no way to simply avoid the problem by "using a more accurate move," as can be argued against Stone Edge or Megahorn. Ice Shard/Ice Beam are both 100% accurate moves, and in a metagame where one turn can give Garchomp all the advantage it needs, missing either one of them (especially since it's going to require two hits to bring Chomp down) is highly detrimental to your team, and I argue, at least a bet uncompetative. Sand Veil on Garchomp is like Wrap in R/B/Y - the only true way to counter it is to hope you get lucky.
 
and actually if you remove dragon dance, choice specs, choice band, yache berry, and swords dance from rayquaza there's no reason for it being overpowered.

seriously we should either ban it or leave it unbanned, middle ground stuff is stupid.
 
CLegacyM said:
Actually as soon as you remove Yache berry there is no argument for Garchomp being overpowered.
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The precedent was already set in R/S/E that items are not going to be banned from certain pokemon to make them viable in OU. As I recall, the primary reason for banning Wobbuffet to ubers in that generation was because of the potentially infinite stall Wobbuffet vs. Wobbuffet would create. It's obvious to everyone that banning Leftovers on Wobbuffet would at least remove that part of the argument as to why it was uber, but it was never even considered.

A pokemon should be evaluated based on its merits when it is used to its full potential. The only reason an item should be banned is if it's uncompetative in and of itself, in which case it's the item that's being banned, from use on every pokemon.
 
I don't think that precedent deserves to be ironclad. Especially when most people yell "test it," we aren't able to test this idea either? Precedent isnt a very good argument for ignoring that idea.
 
Do you have any idea what kind of mess it would make if we start banning certain items on certain pokemon? Not worth the hassle, when, in a competative metagame, we should be evaluating each pokemon based on its fullest potential.
 
Why? The whole idea of the standard metagame is to have the most viable pokemon for use. If banning only one item on that pokemon can make it viable (even though I don't think it's broken in the first place) then there is no reason not to. In fact, it would be setting a precendent. It isn't a tedious process and it wouldn't overcomplicate things as it is just one pokemon and one item -- and testing could be done for further pokemon if people were willing to do the work, but while that isn't likely that doesn't mean that this simple action shouldn't change the goal of the standard tier.

Your argument of banning Swords Dance on Garchomp is stupid because it nearly neuters the pokemon itself. That means it wont have the most options available to it while keeping it "fair". By taking away yache berry you aren't changing the pokemon itself and you are essentially leaving it with the most possible options for use in the Standard tier minus yache.

Is it really that difficult of a concept for you?
 
1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?
No, my answer to garchomp is simple: don't let it come in. It can't come in safely on any of my pokes exept my dugtrio, and my Milotic can leavean exit wound in it the size of a basketball... stadium.

2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?
No, I lead with sashed yanmega, so I prepare for Gyara and Bronzong a lot more.
3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?
I have a Milotic built for killing it (which also means it counters salamence), but plenty of my other pokes can revenge kill it with ease.

4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?
No, dragonite and salamence would do the exact same without it.

5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp<b>?</b>
Personally, I find Lucario and Togekiss to be larger threats, but that may just be because I run a team of 5 fast pokemon who hate extremespeed/thunderwave
 
I gotta go with Syberia, anything that's not a blanket ban is a horrible idea. As soon as you start banning things in a context problems arise be it arguing, confusion, what have you. For gods sake I saw someone running Deoxys (regular version) because they thought it was unbanned. Banning things that aren't blanket bans just makes for a whole boatload of problems.

Furthermore, the idea is to ban less instead of more. The more I think about it the more I would rather let the Latios brothers down with a blanket ban on Soul Dew than move chomp up. OR get rid of SR entirely. Chomp is a problem and something has to be done, the only real argument is which path is the best action.
 
1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?

Not much. A Garchomp with +2 Atk is surely scary, but it can be easily revenged by a lot of things and random scarfers. Yache is neutralized by residual damage, Zong's Gyro Ball does around 45 iirc. Sure, sometimes you have to make a sacrifice, but the same applies to Gyarados, Lucario, Mence etc. Choice Band and Scarf Chomp are more dangerous to me, but can be countered easily by revenge killing (Band) or a physical tank (Scarf).

2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?

I always make sure to have at least 2 Pkmn with Ice moves, preferably on a fast hitter and on something that can take a hit or two. I usually ran Mamo back in the days instead of Luke because of Ice Shard, and it worked well, but now it's not really necessary as I pressure the opponent early game and so he doesn't have many opportunities to switch in his Chomp anyway.

3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?

Again, my team has 3 Pkmn that can revenge Chomp, and 2 sturdy tanks that can inflict heavy damage to it so it's not that much of a problem.

4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?

Flygon negative, Bronzong positive. HP Ice would still be used. Otherwise, nothing really.


5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp.

Gyarados, Lucario and Deoxys are more threatening to me, as Deoxys cannot be revenged, Luke has Extremespeed and Gyara has DD. In my opinion, those are harder to counter because of the speed.
 
Chimera said:
why is it we are discussing banning a pokemon, and banning a move (something new), yet a single build, the uncounterable build, is somehow too crazy a concept and complicated? Everything else so far is banned because its significantly better (see Mewtwo, Lati@s, Rayquaza) or breaks a fundamental rule (wobby).
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For one, Garchomp is not nearly as powerful on its own compared to the listed pokémon. The Latis are, for most intents, Salamence+ (even without Soul Dew) while the other two really should need no additional explanation. The only Garchomp that is allegedly overpowered is one specific moveset carrying one specific item.

Seven Deadly Sins said:
Actually, I'm pretty sure you should read before saying things. I said that Cress WOULD be a hard counter to Garchomp if SD Outrage didn't 2HKO it. Since it does, Cress isn't a hard counter to Garchomp. Taking any one of a number of options off of Garchomp can make it less overpowered, but no one option removes the OPness entirely.

I really don't appreciate Straw Man arguments that ignore the point I'm making in favor of one that you can fight effectively. Garchomp is overpowered because of a number of things that combine. Banning one of them doesn't make the others any less overwhelming.
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Apparently you don't get it either, as locking yourself in with Outrage absolutely 100% GUARANTEES a revenge kill. (Outrage makes you susceptible to timely switches to Steels as well.) Its lock-in mechanic is highly exploitable by skilled opponents. On the other hand, Dragon Claw simply isn't strong enough to get the job done in this circumstance. Cresselia isn't a hard counter in the sense that Magnezone is to Skarmory but she does a pretty bang-up job of defending against it at any rate.

Cresselia isn't the only thing in PokémonLand that will kill, cripple, or heavily deter Garchomp either. Some don't even rely on Ice attacks to do it and a few of those (mostly CB/Specs) blow right through Yache anyway. It's certainly not the only attacker routinely turning multiple kills, especially not compared to trappers (Weavile, Dugtrio) or suiciders (Metagross, Gengar). That said, "Fast physical powerhouse with Swords Dance and a good type combo," doesn't exactly convince me it's overpowered on its own, just another good pokémon.... Sand Veil is the only thing that makes me question it but even that has an underlying problem in Sand STREAM, since it's basically useless on its own.

Syberia said:
(especially since it's going to require two hits to bring Chomp down) is highly detrimental to your team, and I argue, at least a bet uncompetative.

Sand Veil on Garchomp is like Wrap in R/B/Y - the only true way to counter it is to hope you get lucky.
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To be fair, Garchomp will tend to take a hit or two getting set up in the first place (on the switch in and possibly a second one if Garchomp doesn't already OHKO without the SD) and, unless it was a Rock attack or Thunder Wave, that damage will put it into kill range for most Ice moves regardless of Yache. SD Garchomp won't often get set up without already losing most of its health, like most setup sets, it relies on getting lucky with Sand Veil or being faster and OHKOing the remaining enemy pokémon to cripple/sweep.

And why I really wanted to reply to you: wrap sux almost as much as toxic in gsc

CLegacyM said:
Your argument of banning Swords Dance on Garchomp is stupid because it nearly neuters the pokemon itself.
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lol
 
why did toxic suck in gsc?
and wrap in r/b/y was basically a infinite move in that game, kinda like some SSBB tactics. it sucks now, but it was beyond OP in 1st gen
 
The point is, that 1 turn to take out Yache Berry is enough to give Garchomp an opportunity to set up and put you to death.

Right now, everyone have to build a team with at least 2 things that has the ability to kill Garchomp and can take at least ONE of its non-Sword Danced hits.
 
Yes, but even the average team needs more than just a Starmie to ensure opposing Gyarados' effect is nulified completely. That Life Orb + Earthquake can OHKO Starmie and there's not a damn thing you can do about it. So, shouldn't Gyarados + Life Orb suffer the same consequences as Garchomp + Yache Berry?

We honestly need to come up with a better argument than that. Funnily enough, I would personally prefer Garchomp banned, but it's simply putting experiences and viable reasons as to why Garchomp should be banned to have an influence; it's just a shame that I am poor at putting 'pen to paper'.

Smogon is in production as we speak installing a Garchomp-less ladder. Throughout that time, we will accumulate statistics and veteran's experience in order to conclude the entire debate.
 
When you carry 3 ice attacks on your team basically to counter Chomp and 2 of them miss, leaving a half hp YacheChomp destroying your entire team then you know something is not right, yea that just happened to me.
 
For all of my Scarfchomp(or any scarved dragon attacker)-less teams, I've noticed that I need multiple lines of defense for Yache Chomp, and that a pokemon that cannot do any significant damage to it is almost detrimental to the team.

I'm not sure that it is dominant enough to be banned, but the Garchomp-less ladder sounds like a good idea.
 
If only the 100% accuracy moves didn't have crappy base power. Right now i think the best "counter" would be a dual layer of Toxic Spikes and stalling with protect/switching.
 
I think having Adamant ScarfGross with 188 Speed EVs (at the minimum) and Explosion is the answer for none-Scarf variants...without a sub up. Deoxys-S can annihilate the Scarf version, so those two together could do it...even though it limits your creativity with the rest of your team.
 
All calcs are a Swords Dance Outrage from a Jolly Garchomp (359*2 attack), and assume Garchomp has a Yache Berry.

Jirachi (252 HP / 22 Def / 36 Speed): 35.89% - 42.33%
Metagross (252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def): 42.86% - 50.27%
Bronzong (252 HP / 76 Def, +Def nature): 43.49% - 51.18%
Forretress (252 HP / 252 Def): 31.36% - 37.01%
Skarmory (252 HP / 252 Def): 33.23% - 39.22%
Heatran (252 HP / 0 Def): 48.19% - 56.74%
Heatran (4 HP / 0 Def): 57.41% - 67.59%

I posted this because I'm tired of seeing "Any steel can switch into Outrage". Take a look at these. Every single one of these pokemon is outsped by Garchomp. So they switch into Outrage, then what? Even Forretress is taking 62%-74% from Outrage (one hit from switching, one hit the next turn since Garchomp outspeeds), and I would like to know exactly what these pokemon are going to do back. Skamory and Forretress can set up spikes or stealth rock, but both are still taking a hefty amount of damage. Also consider that Forretress can't switch in again.

Scarf Heatran can take Garchomp on with Dragon Pulse / HP Ice, but it's 2HKO'd by Outage, and will not OHKO Yache Garchomp without a critical hit.

Jirachi and Bronzong are 3HKO'd, but honestly aren't doing much back. Bronzong can hypnosis or explode at best. Jirachi is doing what, a rare Ice Punch? Maybe Body Slam hoping for paralysis? Garchomp is still crippling it, doing 70%-84%.

Now also consider the fact that Garchomp's Outrage lasts for 2-3 turns, it's not infinite. As soon as Outrage ends, Garchomp is free to either switch (after crippling most steels), or risk another attack (Earthquake or Fire Fang will KO pretty much anything here).

Please stop with the "Any steel walls SD Outrage". While the damage percentages aren't all 1-2HKO's, remember that Garchomp outspeeds everything here, and that only Heatran/Metagross (sometimes Jirachi) have attacks that really threaten Garchomp.
 
G-Beast said:
why did toxic suck in gsc?
and wrap in r/b/y was basically a infinite move in that game, kinda like some SSBB tactics. it sucks now, but it was beyond OP in 1st gen
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Wrap in R/B/Y just needed a simple tweaking in the game mechanics to fix it going into the next generation, they are not just going to make us all forget Garchomp existed and delete him from the pokedex. As for Toxic sucking in GSC, I have no idea what you are talking about, it was more useful than ever, as you needed Rest/Aromatherapy, or else even Blissey would be out stalled in a heartbeat.

Bronzong is a steel that can definitely switch in, as Gyro Ball does a hefty amount of damage.

Anyways, I really do think Garchomp is too overpowered. It was a complete slap in the face to Flygon when Garchomp came out with its speed, attack, and Swords Dance. "We will just screw over that bug lookin' dragon by making this stupid hammer head shark have 2 more base speed points!" What really makes the difference tho, is SD. If Flygon had SD, it still wouldn't be sitting on the pedastool that we put Garchomp on. They did give Flygon Roost and U-Turn, but how and the hell is this supposed to help a sweeper? All that did for me was turn it into a great staller, with its resistance to Stealth Rock, immunity to Toxic Spikes/Spikes and Roost, but not nearly as threatening as SD Yache Chomp.
 
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