CAP 4 CAP 4 - Attacking Moves Discussion

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X-Act said:
So is my new move idea going to be ignored just because this thing has already a new ability?
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I'm not going to ignore it, but I'm going to post against it for two reasons. One reason is that it's not going to be used almost at all. This thing is a pure utility pokemon, and it's already looking like it has a serious case of 4MS. Second, when you KO the pokemon that's out and it keeps attacking the switch in, thats quite broken if you ask me. If you make it like a regular multi-hit move it would probably be fine. ONTO TEH LIST:

Yes:
Earthquake
Earth Power
Gunk Shot
Poison Jab
Sucker Punch
U-turn
Pursuit
Drain Punch

Maybe:
Elemental Punches

Absolutely No:
Non-Stab Fighting/Rock Moves.
Elemental "Beams"
Non-Stab Moves in general.

Elevator Music said:
Exactly how many moves do we plan on giving this pokemon? These lists are huge.

I think on average pokemon get around 60-75 non-repeated moves, excluding stuff like Clefable, correct (please correct me if I'm wrong. X-Act, you made some statement on something like this once, right?)? I'd prefer less than 70 on this guy (like 65, 66, or 67 or whatever would be perfect).

We already want a lot of support moves on this guy, which will take up a lot of room. Then there are the shitty TMs that everything and their mother gets like Protect, Attract, Captivate, Rain Dance/Sunny Day/Sandstorm (I don't think Hail would fit, but I suppose we could give him it), etc. That takes up a lot of room as well. And this isn't a Normal-typed Fairy that's going to be able to do learn everything in the world.

We can't give this guy 8000 attacks and expect it to have a usable support movepool, it just won't work.
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I completely agree with this statement, and I was going to say the exact same thing, but I got lazy and decided to quote you.
 
Yes, drain punch seems like a good idea. Since it isn't getting an immediate 50% recovery move, this could actually see some use. Though it kind of contradicts your "No non-stab fighting/rock moves" comment Tennis.
 
it has wish for a 50% recovery
if we give it weather ball it will always put in a team with tyranitar for a speacial rock move
 
Um, why are the elemental punches even debatable. This thing has much higher Special Attack than attack, and most of the things it would want to use a 4x super effective elemental punch will be hit much harder by the corresponding Hidden Power (Gliscor, Forretress, Garchomp, Salamence and Gyarados after Intimidate). We are obviously giving this pokemon Hidden Power, since it is an "every pokemon" TM, so I'd like to know how anybody could possibly consider the punches to be broken. All they do is make a physical attacking set more viable by giving it more attacking types, but even still, Earth Power / HP Ice will be hitting harder than Earthquake / Ice Punch, so I really don't see what the issue is.

I support giving this thing any physical move that looks like it would fit well, because I don't really believe any physical attacking move could make it remotely broken except maaaybe Close Combat, given how low his stat is. I also support just about any special moves except the base 95 elemental moves - this guy really doesn't need any of them. The only thing I'm really against is any sort of good boosting move, as in no +2s or +1 +1s, because that just raises his sweeping potential a little too much. I don't really support any +1 boosting moves either, although I could see maybe Meditate working out alright. Meditate / Gravity / Earthquake / Gunk Shot does sound like a really fun set.
 
Gunk Shot
Elemental Punches
Eathquake
Earth Power
Poison Jab
Sludge Bomb
Force Palm
Double hit
Fake Out
Mud Slap
Mud Shot
Arm thrust
Wake Up Slap
Double Slap

And MAYBE Shadow Ball.
That was pretty much a copy&paste of X-Acts moveset, and I'm behind him on it. We don't need to make this thing a weapon, and movepool definitely has to reflect that.

Doesn't its smile just scream, "I'm a lover not a fighter"?
 
latinoheat said:
how does weather ball make any sense what so ever
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Him learning weather ball make just as much sense as Roserade learning it. Seriously, can anyone explain why Axle the Red's midget cousin can learn such a weird move like that? I'm not saying I agree that Weather Ball is a good move suggestion, but I have seen weirder shit on Pokemon.
 
Must Haves:

The STABS: Apart from the ones listed below of course, but you must include the rest of em :)
The punches: 'Cause there awesome... maybe not the two below
The slaps: They fit in there well
Force Palm: Same as above
Cross Chop: Yep, I see this as a martial artist
Arm Thrust: Same as above
Energy Ball: IDK, just throw it in
Weather Ball: Same as above
Grass Knot: IT CAN TIE ITS LEGS IN A KNOT!! :happybrain:
Fake Out: First strike instant flinch is awesome
U-Turn: Attacking and switching at the same time? Who'd give that up?
Pursuit: Just to make sure no-one makes a switch

Not 100% Favoured:

Flamethrower/Ice Beam/Thunder Bolt: Element special attacks just don't fit
Fire Blast/Blizzard/Thunder: Same as above
Mud Bomb/Mud Slap: Not powerful enough, although an accuracy drop could help out a lot
Sucker Punch: Useless against set-ups, otherwise it wouldn't be here
Dynamic Punch: Not accurate enough, but instant confusion helps a lot
Close Combat: I mean come on, this is supposed to come in out of battle, less defences can't help

MUST NOT HAVE!!:

Poison Sting: Not powerful enough, enough said
Mud Shot: Same as above, but at least it reduces speed (reductions in accuracy is x10 times better though, so just skip it anyway)
Anything else not listed above
 
One objection I'll raise to X-act's new move proposal is that it seems to run counter to the in-game DP switch-in upon death mechanics. Right now fainted Pokemon are not replaced until the end of the round, so you can't possibly KO more than 2 Pokemon in a turn with Earthquake/Explosion spammage in 2v2 unlike in Advance days.

While it's not overpowered (poison typage alone ensures that), changing a fundamental mechanic like that for the sake of a move looks fanboyish at first glance, which might hurt acceptance. People might also not like the precendence of casually rewriting mechanics for a single move like that.
 
^As stated above^
I think OctoSludge needs to be changed.
In the game, Sandstorm and other effects hit, then the next Pokemon switches in.
So OctoSludge would have to adhere to that rule and stop attacking, or last through weather?
How about we make it like a layer of Spikes instead?
After a Pokemon has fainted from it, the Pokemon will attack once more laying down these "spikes."
Then a switching in Pokemon takes X amount of damage.
 
I'm pro-Octo Sludge, though of course I think we should discuss the effects more.

I don't want the elemental special attacks like Flamethrower/TB/IB, because it's lke Starmie, the coverage+Speed is pretty good, and I don't think it'd be a good idea.
 
Votes, now that I've had some time to look up stuff.

Yes:

Earthquake, Sludge Bomb, Poison Jab, Earth Power

These are no-brainers.

Rock Slide, Stone Edge

Every single Ground type can learn Rock Slide except Wooper, Barboach, Nincada, and Wormadam. Wooper and Barboach can get it when they evolve, Nincada is restricted since it loses ground type upon evolution, and Wormadam forms are weirdly restrictive on movepool. Stone Edge is the same except that a bunch of NFEs don't get it, but that doesn't apply here. Unless someone can come up with an overwhelmingly good reason not to allow these I'd say they should just be included by fiat for consistency.

Gunk Shot

Eh... kinda redundant with Poison Jab, but why not. I'd rather have a utility move in the final movepool , but no objections to giving this as an option to movepool creators.

Element Punches

More balanced than the special stuff (less power, lower attack stat, subject to Intimidate). I'd have reservations about putting them on an actual movepool over utility stuff like Rapid Spin or Wish, but for the next stage they're fine.

Fling

Yeah, fits the concept art perfectly.

Fake Out

Weakish with low attack and no STAB or Technician, but there's utility value. Worth moving onto the next stage, where it'll have to prove its merits against all the other non-TM moves.

Brick Break

Gamefreak hands this out to all sorts of random stuff. Don't see any compelling reason to deny this, it's certainly not going to be overpowered.

Drain Punch

Harmless TM move, it'll be cute to see if people actually try to give it a use.

U-Turn

I like the idea conceptually, doesn't seem broken in any way.

Silver Wind

Another TM move, mostly harmless but seems like it'd fit the spider theme. If people want Tailwind this would be a good complement thematically.

Mudslap, Mud Shot

Sure. They'll probably never be used, but high percentage accuracy/speed down fit the utility theme welll.

No:

Flamethrower/Ice Beam/Thunderbolt

Making people use less orthodox choices (element punches, hidden power) seem like it'd make for a more interesting Pokemon.

Close Combat

I can sorta see it fitting artwise, but not at all stat or concept-wise; Close Combat's pretty much the opposite of Utility! I'd prefer a different fighting attack like Cross Chop if people want to hit Blissey SE that badly.
 
I really don't think we should give this any way to touch Blissey (meaning no high power Fighting moves) Starmie's main advantages are that it has coverage and speed. Deoxys-S has the advantage of coverage and speed. If we give this thing the 95 Base power special moves AND a way to kill Blissey, then we're pretty much saying that this thing is versatile and can act as a clean up sweeper. There's a difference between a 75 base power attack coming off of like 76 base attack hitting Garchomp or Gyarados 4x effectively and a way to OHKO Blissey, which I see as a viable switch in to this thing with Ice Beam. I'd rather that the most threatening this could be to Blissey is the off chance Taunt or Encore.
 
So...there seem to be a general consensuses towards:

-Not permitting it to learn Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, and Flamethrower or any special attack over 95 in power.
-Giving it the elemental punches along with a few punch/slap based moves
-Little to no resistances toward allowing it to learning these few non-stab special attacks: Energy Ball, Shadow Ball, and Shock Wave/Charge Beam. This is based on people who said they didn't mind and the fact few spoke up against it.
-U-turn, Rapid Spin, Knock off being on in it's movepool.

I probably missed a few more points within this thread but I'm not sure. This is based on my opinion so this might be incorrect to you. If you have a opinion that you want to talk about, please reply with reason and facts to back it up.
 
Should Get
Force Palm- Um, it's got palms...

Fake Out- Again, it's fast, and has palms, and it just fits the Pokemon.

Wake Up Slap- LOL, joining the "Palm" bandwagon description, LOL...

Doubleslap- Um, yeah...

Mud-Slap- Ground type, and palms, lol...

Mud Bomb- Cartoon's Animation made me want this on it even more.

Gunk Shot-Same as above.

Horn Drill- It's got a sort of drill thing on it's body, so yeah...

Debatable(Maybe)
Shadow Ball- I don't know if it really fits...

Stone Edge- This one I can see happening, it's so close to the ground, it can take stones and the such...

Close Combat- Doesn't make it too broken because it takes some Defense and Special Defense off, so yeah...

Elemental Punches- I don't know, it makes it too much of a threat, can't be slept(with Vital Spirit), and can have the option to burn, freeze, or throw in some parahax, I don't want a Physical Kiss...
 
UberMunch said:
Yes, drain punch seems like a good idea. Since it isn't getting an immediate 50% recovery move, this could actually see some use. Though it kind of contradicts your "No non-stab fighting/rock moves" comment Tennis.
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I contradict myself a lot. Drain Punch is never used anyways, and this thing suffers from acute 4MS anyways. Double Whammy for ambivilence.

Gothic Togekiss said:
Him learning weather ball make just as much sense as Roserade learning it. Seriously, can anyone explain why Axle the Red's midget cousin can learn such a weird move like that? I'm not saying I agree that Weather Ball is a good move suggestion, but I have seen weirder shit on Pokemon.
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Roserade is a flower pokemon. Flowers react to weather. This is a hand-spider. Hand-spiders do not react to weather.

hinode said:
One objection I'll raise to X-act's new move proposal is that it seems to run counter to the in-game DP switch-in upon death mechanics. Right now fainted Pokemon are not replaced until the end of the round, so you can't possibly KO more than 2 Pokemon in a turn with Earthquake/Explosion spammage in 2v2 unlike in Advance days.

While it's not overpowered (poison typage alone ensures that), changing a fundamental mechanic like that for the sake of a move looks fanboyish at first glance, which might hurt acceptance. People might also not like the precendence of casually rewriting mechanics for a single move like that.
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This. I'm against new moves to begin with, and new moves + mechanics changes is a double no.

RobertM said:
Clefable and Hypno get the elemental punches. Are they sweepers?
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Hypno can sweep with Calm Mind. Clefable can sweep. So yes and no.

Yin Absol said:
all punches and slaps
all ground and poison moves (except for sludge, poison gas, and the like)
Taunt
Torment
Tickle (why not, he's got the hands)
Beat Up
Helping hand (flavor and such)
Uproar
Dark Pulse
Wring Out
Flatter


and a new attack

Crazy Giggle
Power: --
Accuracy: 85%
Type: Dark

Effect: The user mocks the opponent, sending it into a confused rage
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Lurk Moar. This is ATTACK MOVES, not FULL MOVEPOOL. And your new move is just...dumb to be blunt.

Gothic Togekiss said:
So...there seem to be a general consensuses towards:

-Not permitting it to learn Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, and Flamethrower or any special attack over 95 in power.
-Giving it the elemental punches along with a few punch/slap based moves
-Little to no resistances toward allowing it to learning these few non-stab special attacks: Energy Ball, Shadow Ball, and Shock Wave/Charge Beam. This is based on people who said they didn't mind and the fact few spoke up against it.
-U-turn, Rapid Spin, Knock off being on in it's movepool.

I probably missed a few more points within this thread but I'm not sure. This is based on my opinion so this might be incorrect to you. If you have a opinion that you want to talk about, please reply with reason and facts to back it up.
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I'll bring up a new point: Limit the offense as much as possible. That means: No Energy Ball, Shadow Ball, and Shock Wave/Charge Beam. No elemental "beams" (Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Flamethrower, Thunder, Blizzard, Fire Blast). No fighting moves outside of Drain Punch and Wake-up Slap. No Rock moves. Nothing over 95 power. No boosting moves (Ancientpower included).

That may be what you've stated, but I'll bring up Soup's point again: This will be a "Pure Utility Pokemon". Nowhere in that concept does it mention offensive moves, save Rapid Spin and Knock Off, which aren't used for their damaging properties. This should get bare-bones STAB moves, and the elemental punches, and the slaps. The more offensive moves you slap on this pokemon (pardon the pun), the less support moves you can have. Its inversely perportional.

Is that a good enough point?
 
No Rock moves.
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Why? As I mentioned earlier in this topic, only 4 Grounds in the entire game miss out on Rock Slide. Of these, Nincada doesn't because Gamefreak didn't want to give Ninjask/Shedinja rock moves (or Earthquake), Wooper and Barboach get it when they evolve, and Wormadam is just weirdly restrictive on movepool (and gets Rock Blast by level). All fully evolved Ground types get Stone Edge as well except for Wormadam.

There is no precendence whatsoever for denying a ground type like this Rock attacks and a lot of flavor saying it should. This is the same reasoning that people pretty much just assumed Stealth Rock for it, even if being stuck with the other two types of Spikes only would be "more interesting". In fact, there's even more precendence for giving it Rock Slide and Stone Edge, since Quagsire at least doesn't get Stealth Rock. The Rock/Ground combo is the closest elemental affiliation in the game after Water/Ice; I'd say that nothing short of overwhelming arguments that they'd be broken (despite the low attack stat) or somehow not fitting flavor wise unlike every other Ground type would be sufficient to not include them.
 
hinode said:
Why? As I mentioned earlier in this topic, only 4 Grounds in the entire game miss out on Rock Slide. Of these, Nincada doesn't because Gamefreak didn't want to give Ninjask/Shedinja rock moves (or Earthquake), Wooper and Barboach get it when they evolve, and Wormadam is just weirdly restrictive on movepool (and gets Rock Blast by level). All fully evolved Ground types get Stone Edge as well except for Wormadam.

There is no precendence whatsoever for denying a ground type like this Rock attacks and a lot of flavor saying it should. This is the same reasoning that people pretty much just assumed Stealth Rock for it, even if being stuck with the other two types of Spikes only would be "more interesting". In fact, there's even more precendence for giving it Rock Slide and Stone Edge, since Quagsire at least doesn't get Stealth Rock. The Rock/Ground combo is the closest elemental affiliation in the game after Water/Ice; I'd say that nothing short of overwhelming arguments that they'd be broken (despite the low attack stat) or somehow not fitting flavor wise unlike every other Ground type would be sufficient to not include them.
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Its not so much as "broken" its more of "how much do we want to give this while leaving enough room for all the support moves we want this to have". I think that its unnecessary for a Pure-Utility concept to get a 100 power non-STAB move, when that spot could be used for something else. Also, tell me when you are going to use a Rock move over an Ice move for coverage. Ice hits everything Rock would, except lol Pyroak. Even then, Earthquake hits it neutral. So really, what is the point of putting it on there?

Edit: And please don't bring up the Nintendo precedent/flavor argument, if we followed Nintendo we would have 3 and a half Garchomps already, or if we REALLY wanted to follow Nintendo, we wouldn't be doing this in the first place.
 
Should Get:

STAB:
Dust Shoot
Sludge Bomb
Poison Jab

Earthquake
Earth Power
Dig
Mud Shot

UnSTAB

Physical:
Rapid Spin
Knock Off
Rock Smash
Rock Climb
Pursuit
U-Turn
Ice Punch
Thunderpunch
Shadow Punch
Bullet Punch
Sucker Punch
Payback
Rock Slide
Stone Edge
Drain Punch
Brick Break
Focus Punch
Avalanche

Special:
Shadow Ball
Dark Pulse
Power Gem
Shock Wave
Energy Ball
Giga Drain
Flash Cannon

Debatable:
X-Scissor
Silver Wind
Bug Buzz
Grass Knot
Thunderbolt
Ice Beam

No:
Fire moves of any kind.

Commentary:

So basically, I tried to focus this around STABs with Punches and generic Fighting and Rock for physical moves, and Dark/Ghost/Grass special moves. I will not support any fire moves on this buggish pokemon. I might consider Fire Punch, but you can forget about Flamethrower or Fire Blast. I'm also not too keen on handing it special boltbeam, although I've no problem giving it Avalanche and Thunder/Ice Punch. Fire Blast negates several otherwise solid Steel counters, and isn't even justifiable.
 
tennisace0227 said:
Its not so much as "broken" its more of "how much do we want to give this while leaving enough room for all the support moves we want this to have". I think that its unnecessary for a Pure-Utility concept to get a 100 power non-STAB move, when that spot could be used for something else. Also, tell me when you are going to use a Rock move over an Ice move for coverage. Ice hits everything Rock would, except lol Pyroak. Even then, Earthquake hits it neutral. So really, what is the point of putting it on there?

Edit: And please don't bring up the Nintendo precedent/flavor argument, if we followed Nintendo we would have 3 and a half Garchomps already, or if we REALLY wanted to follow Nintendo, we wouldn't be doing this in the first place.
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I don't see much of a reason to leave off TM's that every pokemon of the type learns. Still, they would fall under "flavor moves" which isn't what we're supposed to discuss here.
 
Deck Knight said:
Should Get:

STAB:
Dust Shoot
Sludge Bomb
Poison Jab

Earthquake
Earth Power
Dig
Mud Shot

UnSTAB

Physical:
Rapid Spin
Knock Off
Rock Smash
Rock Climb
Pursuit
U-Turn
Ice Punch
Thunderpunch
Shadow Punch
Bullet Punch
Sucker Punch
Payback
Rock Slide
Stone Edge
Drain Punch
Brick Break
Focus Punch
Avalanche

Special:
Shadow Ball
Dark Pulse
Power Gem
Shock Wave
Energy Ball
Giga Drain
Flash Cannon

Debatable:
X-Scissor
Silver Wind
Bug Buzz
Grass Knot
Thunderbolt
Ice Beam

No:
Fire moves of any kind.

Commentary:

So basically, I tried to focus this around STABs with Punches and generic Fighting and Rock for physical moves, and Dark/Ghost/Grass special moves. I will not support any fire moves on this buggish pokemon. I might consider Fire Punch, but you can forget about Flamethrower or Fire Blast. I'm also not too keen on handing it special boltbeam, although I've no problem giving it Avalanche and Thunder/Ice Punch. Fire Blast negates several otherwise solid Steel counters, and isn't even justifiable.
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Whats Dust Shoot? And I considered no Fire moves for steels, but then I realized it has STAB Earthquake which hits every Steel in the game harder other than Forretress and Skarmory. Its just too big to be feasible, we need room for the more important Support moves.
 
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