Defining the NU Tier

[Age of Kings]

Carnivine has poor defenses, awful speed, and a semi-useless ability that changes a resistance to an immunity (Chlorophyll is better IMO since Sunny Day does get some use in NU). It's outclassed by Cacturne at sweeping (itself was debated for NU inclusion), Butterfree at double powder, and practically every other grass type that can learn Leech Seed at Subseeding. Power Whip is pretty worthless when, literally, practically everything resists it.

 

[Bologo]

I'm bumping this, since we now have some actual UU statistics to back up our claims to start discussing the possible NU tier, meaning that there's some actual proof.

Let's keep on discussing NU!

 

[Bourbon]

Just curious Bologo but where can I view these UU stats?

 

[the_artic_one]

The Smogon Shoddy Server Statistics - July 2008 sticky at the top of the page.

 

[Evil Hamster]

I'm not sure if the distinction between UU and 'UU BL' is the same as that for OU and BL (75%) but if it is, these would be the 'OU of UU'.

There were a total of 169132 uses in total. 75% of that is 126849.
Pokemon used #1 to #40 gave 127083 uses, whilst #1 to #39 gave 125565 uses. #1 to #40 gets much closer to 75%, and it rounds up, so I'll go with that.

The following Pokemon were not taken into account, though they would have made a negligible difference anyway, as most of them were very low in usage.

[SIZE=-8]Snover[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Murkrow[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Piloswine[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Rhydon[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Garchomp[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Marill[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Togetic[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Ponyta[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Sneasel[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Wartortle[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Tangela[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Gengar[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Onix[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Hippopotas[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Skarmory[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Heracross[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Starmie[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Infernape[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Heatran[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Zapdos[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Dusknoir[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Swampert[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Kadabra[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Togekiss[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Weavile[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Gyarados[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Poliwhirl[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Metagross[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Azelf[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Gligar[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Chansey[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Machamp[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Snorlax[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Bronzong[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Gastly[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Haunter[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Porygon-Z[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Blissey[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Aerodactyl[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Breloom[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Cresselia[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Lugia[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-8]Everything after #189 (Volbeat) in uses. [/SIZE]

The top 75% would be;

[B]#1: Steelix (8658)[/B]
[B]#2: Claydol (6740)[/B]
[B]#3: Rotom (6166)[/B]
[B]#4: Hitmontop (5445)[/B]
[B]#5: Clefable (5221)[/B]
[B]#6: Swellow (4871)[/B]
[B]#7: Ninetales (4246)[/B]
[B]#8: Hitmonlee (4152)[/B]
[B]#9: Toxicroak (4119)[/B]
[B]#10: Leafeon (4043)[/B]
[B]#11: Froslass (3941)[/B]
[B]#12: Altaria (3890)[/B]
[B]#13: Hypno (3728)[/B]
[B]#14: Blastoise (3575)[/B]
[B]#15: Persian (3567)[/B]
[B]#16: Poliwrath (3409)[/B]
[B]#17: Scyther (3028)[/B]
[B]#18: Vileplume (2964)[/B]
[B]#19: Lanturn (2960)[/B]
[B]#20: Meganium (2951)[/B]
[B]#21: Drapion (2729)[/B]
[B]#22: Nidoking (2728)[/B]
[B]#23: Absol (2679)[/B]
[B]#24: Drifblim (2676)[/B]
[B]#25: Primeape (2611)[/B]
[B]#26: Probopass (2534)[/B]
[B]#27: Kabutops (2210)[/B]
[B]#28: Venomoth (2202)[/B]
[B]#29: Lapras (2138)[/B]
[B]#30: Sharpedo (2011)[/B]
[B]#31: Manetric (1984)[/B]
[B]#32: Glaceon (1972)[/B]
[B]#33: Gastrodon (1964)[/B]
[B]#34: Kangaskhan (1771)[/B]
[B]#35: Nidoqueen (1756)[/B]
[B]#36: Grumpig (1751)[/B]
[B]#37: Rapidash (1736)[/B]
[B]#38: Omastar (1730)[/B]
[B]#39: Hitmonchan (1653)[/B]
[B]#40: Relicanth(1518)[/B]

So, assuming the same 75% boundary is used, anything not in that list would potentially be eligible for NU, assuming it was not overpowering.

 

[Garganator]

I played with my friends many times on NU tier and I love it. And I agree with many points, but I need to disagree to some.

NU's
Arbok
Ariados
Bastiodon - I think problem with this guy is that lack of fighting and ground STAB users in NU. I think some NFE's would help with it, but I won't start discussion similar to UU/BL Tier one. But it's still NU and would help with some troublesome threats in NU terms like Fearow.
Beautifly
Beedrill
Carnivine
Castform
Cherrim
Chimecho
Corsola
Delcatty
Delibird
Ditto
Dustox
Exploud
Farfetch'd
Fearow - 100 speed is really big threat in NU, lack of steel types here is also a problem, because his attacking stat is also good. And for me he would be one of the best Baton Pass users in NU. With Choice Scarf could be really good revenge killer in NU and late game sweepers (yep, Agility one) after killing steels. For me Borderline NU, or even UU. In other words if your team will get rid of Mawile and Bastiodon (the only NU steels) it won't be easy to stop this guy.
Flareon - Even if his STAB is Fire Fang, but his huge in terms of NU attack stat and not that bad defences makes him too strong in my opinion with that many bug types here. For me now it's 100% UU or Borderline NU.
Furret
Girafarig
Glalie
Illumise
Kecleon
Kricketune
Ledian
Lumineon
Luvdisc
Magcargo
Masquerain
Mawile
Mightyena
Minun
Mothim
Pachirisu
Parasect
Pidgeot - I never likes when someone used flying pokemon in tier full of bug pokemon, but I think he won't be that threatening like Fearow in attacking terms in my opinion. I think people will use him most of times for defensive potential.
Plusle
Sableye
Seaking
Seviper
Spinda
Sunflora
Swalot
Trapinch
Tropius
Unown
Vigoroth - I'm not sure, because I never used him to tell the truth, but I think Reversal/Flail set with Focus Sash (thanks for banning Stealth Rock and perma-weather pokemon will be much easier to pull off) could be really troublesome for NU pokemon to counter. I think we need to be carefull with this guy, because in good hands can be too deadly for many NU pokes.
Volbeat
Whiscash
Wigglytuff
Wormadam(all forms)
Xatu

About Sudowodoo - I agree that his too strong thanks to his high defence and attack stat. If you need so badly something with STAB Earth/Rock (and to help to deal with Bastiodon little problem) I prefer to put here Larvitar, which has similar options and much more worse defences. And for me it's less broken then NU-Golem in terms of attacking potential. Rock Polish/Dragon Dance makes him kinda usefull in NU terms with Guts. Or if someone want to try to pull of TR team in NU :P.

And about borderline:

Borderline
Bannete - Good attacking stat (especially for NU), really good supporting options. I like to use this guy in UU, have some potential. UU for me.
Bellossom - I think this guy is UU even with those Meganium and Vileplume running around. With Chlorophyll could be troublesome. But if it'll pass the tests, then I don't see any problem.
Bibarel
Butterfree
Chatot
Cloyster - Huge defence, not bad attack and special attack. And with banned Stealth Rock - obviously UU. Nothing less.
Dewgong - The only reason that I see Dewgong here is that Phione makes his job better, but still I think with Rain Dance setup could be troublesome to take down. I used this guy in UU and even in OU Rain Dance team. It's not that bad.
Dunsparce - Good annoyer. Nothing more. But I think we need to be carefull with this guy.
Golem
Kingler - Even with really short movepool, his attack is impressive and have much better defence then Crawdaunt, so he can switch easier then him. I think this guy should stay as UU, thanks to his attack and good defence. But I think we can test him anyway.
Lopunny
Lunatone
Mr Mime
Octillery
Pelipper
Raticate
Solrock
Stantler - Check Dunsparce without Serene Grace, but with better defences and quite good attack. For me UU. In NU could run kinda effective Choice Band also. His less predictable then Dunsparce. Also lack of fighting attacks in NU helps this guy.
Vespiquen - UU. For me too good stats for NU, especially with banned Stealth Rock.

And I really hope that Stealth Rock will be banned, especially with Delibird being the only Rapid Spinner.

 

[Age of Kings]

EDIT;; This is messed up, I try editing Flareon, Dewgong and Vigoroth, but they don't work for some reason...sorry about the formatting.

Thanks for bumping this up, Bologo. Also, I'll look into Evil Hamster's list to see maybe some potential things to be brought up.

Bastiodon - I think problem with this guy is that lack of fighting and ground STAB users in NU. I think some NFE's would help with it, but I won't start discussion similar to UU/BL Tier one. But it's still NU and would help with some troublesome threats in NU terms like Fearow.

Bastiodon also protects against things like Scarf/Specs Mothim.

Fearow - 100 speed is really big threat in NU, lack of steel types here is also a problem, because his attacking stat is also good. And for me he would be one of the best Baton Pass users in NU. With Choice Scarf could be really good revenge killer in NU and late game sweepers (yep, Agility one) after killing steels. For me Borderline NU, or even UU. In other words if your team will get rid of Mawile and Bastiodon (the only NU steels) it won't be easy to stop this guy.

I don't see how Fearow could touch the small myriad of rock types (Corsola, Sudowoodo, Magcargo). Remember that in this gen, it lost Hidden Power, and its versatility will be damaged if it tries to run...HP Grass. I can see it as an effective lead, unless it faces the ever-popular Plusle/Minun, another pair of good Baton-passers. Then, Fearow has the option of attacking for some damage and getting OHKO'd, or switching/U-turning out and letting them set up and proceed to BP to something good against whatever switched in....and boosted as well!

Flareon

- Even if his STAB is Fire Fang, but his huge in terms of NU attack stat and not that bad defences makes him too strong in my opinion with that many bug types here. For me now it's 100% UU or Borderline NU.

Honestly, I used to be a huge proponent of Flareon, but I've used it and now I find it to be somewhat useless. Even with that good special defense, it's not bulky enough to be a good wall and not fast enough to be a good sweeper. It gets Curse, but it's the equivalent of an empty team slot. It's a bad Wisher, bad WoWer, and if you try to stick on CB or something, the opponent will still kill you before you can "sweep".

Vigoroth -

I'm not sure, because I never used him to tell the truth, but I think Reversal/Flail set with Focus Sash (thanks for banning Stealth Rock and perma-weather pokemon will be much easier to pull off) could be really troublesome for NU pokemon to counter. I think we need to be carefull with this guy, because in good hands can be too deadly for many NU pokes.

I don't think Spikes is banned, perhaps we can hold a discussion on it? (Toxic Spikes is not an issue, though.)
I look at it as underwhelming. I've never used it either, but base 80 attack isn't the scariest from a sweeper which has no way of boosting other than Curse. Sableye resists that set utterly anyways, but it is also utterly.
The only issue I could see raised is its extremely versatile movepool and not bad 80/80 defenses to back it up. However, it would likely fall apart to anything faster, and paralysis running amok will ruin it.

About Sudowodoo - I agree that his too strong thanks to his high defence and attack stat. If you need so badly something with STAB Earth/Rock (and to help to deal with Bastiodon little problem) I prefer to put here Larvitar, which has similar options and much more worse defences. And for me it's less broken then NU-Golem in terms of attacking potential. Rock Polish/Dragon Dance makes him kinda usefull in NU terms with Guts. Or if someone want to try to pull of TR team in NU :P.

Were Lunatone/Solrock ever put under any contention? I doubt we need heavy emphasis on STAB to kill Bastiodon. A load of things learn Brick Break/EQ, so. Let's not stop to using NFEs to solve our issues.

Bellossom - I think this guy is UU even with those Meganium and Vileplume running around. With Chlorophyll could be troublesome. But if it'll pass the tests, then I don't see any problem.

I don't contest Bellossom, even if it gained Leaf Storm. It has a terrible movepool, and its stats aren't too overpowering.

Cloyster - Huge defence, not bad attack and special attack. And with banned Stealth Rock - obviously UU. Nothing less.

I'm still having a bit of misgivings about Cloyster. If the opposition is great, it'll remain UU. But I really think it should be tested. Things that I would think be run commonly can eliminate it, theoretically. The fact that plenty of Bug types got Energy Ball means one more obstacle for Cloyster.

Dewgong

- The only reason that I see Dewgong here is that Phione makes his job better, but still I think with Rain Dance setup could be troublesome to take down. I used this guy in UU and even in OU Rain Dance team. It's not that bad.

I think its straight-up stats would warrant it out of NU. The only thing is that nothing would really use Rain Dance, at least not compared to UU. Except for maybe Seaking. Sun is a lot more effective.

Kingler - Even with really short movepool, his attack is impressive and have much better defence then Crawdaunt, so he can switch easier then him. I think this guy should stay as UU, thanks to his attack and good defence. But I think we can test him anyway.

Kingler doesn't get free switch-ins to Psychic types. Like Cloyster, another water-type with awful special defense that is only excaberated by the fact that many of NU's Bug types gained Energy Ball, and with that fantastic base 75 speed, I would say that it would only gain a rep as a wall-breaker of sorts. If you don't feel comfortable, we can test.

Stantler - Check Dunsparce without Serene Grace, but with better defences and quite good attack. For me UU. In NU could run kinda effective Choice Band also. His less predictable then Dunsparce. Also lack of fighting attacks in NU helps this guy.

In this gen, he would basically be required to run as an annoyer or CMer (Smogon's Pokedex is down, but looking at Serebii's, it only gets Return, EQ, and Zen Headbutt). I have misgivings with the latter especially, though.

Vespiquen - UU. For me too good stats for NU, especially with banned Stealth Rock.

Who suggested Vespiquen for borderline NU? I forgot, but I'm going to kick their ass. Heh, I not only agree that she should remain UU, but I posted a block of text a few pages back outlining why.

And I really hope that Stealth Rock will be banned, especially with Delibird being the only Rapid Spinner.

Functionally, it is. Officially, it likely will.

 

[Garganator]

I don't see how Fearow could touch the small myriad of rock types (Corsola, Sudowoodo, Magcargo). Remember that in this gen, it lost Hidden Power, and its versatility will be damaged if it tries to run...HP Grass. I can see it as an effective lead, unless it faces the ever-popular Plusle/Minun, another pair of good Baton-passers. Then, Fearow has the option of attacking for some damage and getting OHKO'd, or switching/U-turning out and letting them set up and proceed to BP to something good against whatever switched in....and boosted as well!

Steel Wing. I know, it's not that great attack but for Rock types with lower defence it would be enough. But if you want to add here Lunatone and/or Solrock (which I think is interesting idea) then I don't see any problem with Fearow. But from my experience from playing NU Fearow was many times kinda troublesome guy if played well.

Honestly, I used to be a huge proponent of Flareon, but I've used it and now I find it to be somewhat useless. Even with that good special defense, it's not bulky enough to be a good wall and not fast enough to be a good sweeper. It gets Curse, but it's the equivalent of an empty team slot. It's a bad Wisher, bad WoWer, and if you try to stick on CB or something, the opponent will still kill you before you can "sweep".

That's true, that fire typing don't help him being effective as a wall, but also Fire type have some good resistances, especially for bug and grass type, which are popular in NU tier. But your arguments sounds solid and I think we can at least try to use this guy.

I don't think Spikes is banned, perhaps we can hold a discussion on it? (Toxic Spikes is not an issue, though.)

If we want to allow anything, then I think we can only allow Spikes. Toxic Spikes without spinners could be too deadly. But I don't like the idea of using skills, which you can't even eliminate most of times (I don't think that Delibird will be that popular anyway). I disagree with using Spikes also in NU. And besides I think it would be interesting to play a tier without any 'traps'. We could try to play like this anyway. If we'll think that it won't make any difference, we could add those Spikes.

I don't think Spikes is banned, perhaps we can hold a discussion on it? (Toxic Spikes is not an issue, though.)
I look at it as underwhelming. I've never used it either, but base 80 attack isn't the scariest from a sweeper which has no way of boosting other than Curse. Sableye resists that set utterly anyways, but it is also utterly.
The only issue I could see raised is its extremely versatile movepool and not bad 80/80 defenses to back it up. However, it would likely fall apart to anything faster, and paralysis running amok will ruin it.

If you use Endure, any status kills it. But with subs, paralysis won't be a problem. And I don't think that 80 attack is that bad in NU. Having STAB on Flail could hurt many non-resist things, Bastiodon will think twice before switching on Reversal. And for Sableye Vigoroth can always use Night Slash. With Salac Berry boost he'll be fast enough, especially with that good 90 basic speed stats. Or you can just pass some speed boost to this guy and run with Liechi Berry. I know that it's possible to counter, but I think this guy could be kinda popular and troublesome. But if he won't be that popular, then it's ok.

I don't contest Bellossom, even if it gained Leaf Storm. It has a terrible movepool, and its stats aren't too overpowering.

It's so similar to Vileplume and no one deny that Vileplume is solid UU. It's basically the some poke, but with lower Special Attack then Special Def like Vileplume and without poison typing. I don't see Bellossom being worse then Vileplume (ok, it doesn't have STAB on Sludge Bomb). It just has another resistances and weaknesses. That's why I'm kinda worried about this little guy, but if no one agrees with me, then it could stay NU.

I'm still having a bit of misgivings about Cloyster. If the opposition is great, it'll remain UU. But I really think it should be tested. Things that I would think be run commonly can eliminate it, theoretically. The fact that plenty of Bug types got Energy Ball means one more obstacle for Cloyster.

Testing for a month or two won't hurt after all I guess. But I think it won't pass the tests. But that's just my guess.

I think its straight-up stats would warrant it out of NU. The only thing is that nothing would really use Rain Dance, at least not compared to UU. Except for maybe Seaking. Sun is a lot more effective.

Hmmm... without Dewgong Rain Dance teams will be even more useless in NU. And it could also help, if some Sunny Day teams will get too strong. Ok, maybe it doesn't sound that bad after all ;).

Kingler doesn't get free switch-ins to Psychic types. Like Cloyster, another water-type with awful special defense that is only excaberated by the fact that many of NU's Bug types gained Energy Ball, and with that fantastic base 75 speed, I would say that it would only gain a rep as a wall-breaker of sorts. If you don't feel comfortable, we can test.

Ok, but if we won't add somehow Lunatone and Solrock (they won't pass tests or something), then how many psychic types we have in NU ? Chimecho, which is really frail and slower then him ? Bad switch on him and his down. Girafarig is not also know from good defences. The only chance for Girafarig is to setup Reflect. And 75 basic speed is not that bad in NU terms. With Scarf could outspeed many things. And Lunatone and Solrock won't enjoy STAB Crabhammer. I'm not sure, 130 basic attack stat is really huge in NU terms, 115 basic defence is not that bad also, which helps to switch on some physical attacks. For this moment as a counters I see only more bulky grassers in NU terms (Bellossom for example) which is slower and it won't counter him 100% times. Probably the best bet to counter him is just revenge killing and I can't call this method 100% effective counter. That's true that I don't feel comfortable about this fella, but test will help with this case. I'm not saying no for this moment for him.

In this gen, he would basically be required to run as an annoyer or CMer (Smogon's Pokedex is down, but looking at Serebii's, it only gets Return, EQ, and Zen Headbutt). I have misgivings with the latter especially, though.

It can also use Bite and Iron Tail (which isn't bad idea here with Mawile and Bastiodon being the only steel types and lack of bulky waters except Whishcash in NU). But ok, we'll see how this guy is popular. Maybe I'm mistaken here in calling it UU for sure.

 

[Age of Kings]

EDIT;; Once again, I apologize for this format being fucked up. I don't know what's up with it. I try to edit, and it won't work. Hopefully, you can manage.

One Steel you didn't mention is Wormadam-S, who will likely see equal usage to Bastiodon due to better typing. Sure, Bastiodon has an infinitely better movepool, and Wormadam-S is only neutral to Flying, but when considering walls, typing means a lot, and Wormadam simply is better. People will pack HP Ground/Fighting for Bastiodon, but will falter against Wormadam-S.

Steel Wing. I know, it's not that great attack but for Rock types with lower defence it would be enough. But if you want to add here Lunatone and/or Solrock (which I think is interesting idea) then I don't see any problem with Fearow. But from my experience from playing NU Fearow was many times kinda troublesome guy if played well.

I honestly don't know why Solrock and Lunatone aren't in. This is one case where we can put stats into account.
Solrock is #79 in UU, above Phione and Politoed. It isn't too terrible. However, Lunatone is #112, the lowest unique UU except for Sudowoodo at #127. (Aero, Weezing, and Venusaurare all lower, but that was before they were deemed UU.) In my book, Lunatone is NU. Note that they are only neutral to the bugs they are supposed to wall in addition to Flying types.
I'm going to have to see Fearow's performance before I pass judgement. I saw you yesterday on Smogon's server, but my team wasn't ready, so I'll watch out for you. =)

That's true, that fire typing don't help him being effective as a wall, but also Fire type have some good resistances, especially for bug and grass type, which are popular in NU tier. But your arguments sounds solid and I think we can at least try to use this guy.

In ADV there was the Bellossom/Flareon combo, which concievably has gotten better due to the former leaving a huge dent in everything with Leaf Storm and the latter gaining WoW and the loss of physical Hidden Power. But honestly, in my experience, it will die to nearly any physical attacks, and the fact that a lot of things that can beat it will outspeed it. Not to mention that it will do very little to anything that a) doesn't have Caterpie defenses and b) isn't weak to Fire. Note that it can run a mixed set, but I'd bet my money it'd mostly be support (although it itself needs paralysis support...)

If we want to allow anything, then I think we can only allow Spikes. Toxic Spikes without spinners could be too deadly. But I don't like the idea of using skills, which you can't even eliminate most of times (I don't think that Delibird will be that popular anyway). I disagree with using Spikes also in NU. And besides I think it would be interesting to play a tier without any 'traps'. We could try to play like this anyway. If we'll think that it won't make any difference, we could add those Spikes.

Poison types are also in plentiful supply, who absorb and remove them from the field. In addition, according to Smogon: "Toxic Spikes do nothing to Flying, Poison, or Steel types, or Pokémon with the ability Levitate." I have no problem with Toxic Spikes, due to the fact that there is another way to remove them other than Rapid Spin. Ariados and Beedrill are its only users (unless we eventually do allow Cloyster), both of whom can be stopped easily before they are laid down. And the most viable cleric in NU, Chimecho, is a Levitater.
Spikes, however is another matter, but isn't as game-breaking and deadly as Stealth Rock. I think that Spikes, although unremovable, will stop everything from spamming Focus Sash. But again, you can't remove them. Recall that Rapid Spinners were still used widely to get rid of Spikes for the last two generations because they just reduced the survivability of walls, damage being near universal except for Flyers and Levitaters.

If you use Endure, any status kills it. But with subs, paralysis won't be a problem. And I don't think that 80 attack is that bad in NU. Having STAB on Flail could hurt many non-resist things, Bastiodon will think twice before switching on Reversal. And for Sableye Vigoroth can always use Night Slash. With Salac Berry boost he'll be fast enough, especially with that good 90 basic speed stats. Or you can just pass some speed boost to this guy and run with Liechi Berry. I know that it's possible to counter, but I think this guy could be kinda popular and troublesome. But if he won't be that popular, then it's ok.

Ok, then we should keep Vigoroth on our tabs. I would suggest Phazing/priority moves, but neither were ever popular and would be centralizing if people used them just for it.

It's so similar to Vileplume and no one deny that Vileplume is solid UU. It's basically the some poke, but with lower Special Attack then Special Def like Vileplume and without poison typing. I don't see Bellossom being worse then Vileplume (ok, it doesn't have STAB on Sludge Bomb). It just has another resistances and weaknesses. That's why I'm kinda worried about this little guy, but if no one agrees with me, then it could stay NU.

Testing for a month or two won't hurt after all I guess. But I think it won't pass the tests. But that's just my guess.

And being pure Grass, as well as completely outclassed by Meganium, means that it should stay. The loss of being part Poison actually means a lot more than the loss of STAB...as outlined above, it is unable to absorb being Poisoned, and is an ok wall if not for the fact that now in D/P, there are far more powerful Bug moves and Brave Bird Pidgeot that it has to deal with.

Hmmm... without Dewgong Rain Dance teams will be even more useless in NU. And it could also help, if some Sunny Day teams will get too strong. Ok, maybe it doesn't sound that bad after all ;).

I'm on the borderline about Dewgong. It has many unwanted weaknesses that Phione won't have to deal with, but I kind of think its defenses are a bit too good for a Pokemon of its caliber.

Ok, but if we won't add somehow Lunatone and Solrock (they won't pass tests or something), then how many psychic types we have in NU ? Chimecho, which is really frail and slower then him ? Bad switch on him and his down. Girafarig is not also know from good defences. The only chance for Girafarig is to setup Reflect. And 75 basic speed is not that bad in NU terms. With Scarf could outspeed many things. And Lunatone and Solrock won't enjoy STAB Crabhammer. I'm not sure, 130 basic attack stat is really huge in NU terms, 115 basic defence is not that bad also, which helps to switch on some physical attacks. For this moment as a counters I see only more bulky grassers in NU terms (Bellossom for example) which is slower and it won't counter him 100% times. Probably the best bet to counter him is just revenge killing and I can't call this method 100% effective counter. That's true that I don't feel comfortable about this fella, but test will help with this case. I'm not saying no for this moment for him.

Chimecho actually might become an excellent supporter. And don't forget that it has access to Energy Ball. You also forget that Girafarig will outspeed all but Scarf versions and has access to Thunderbolt, even better than Energy Ball. And BP versions will more than likely carry it.
Wormadam-S, Wormadam-S. =) The other steel! Mawile is...bleh.
Unfortunately, Wormadam-S, while able to survive Kingler's hits (~3 or 4KO'd by Crabhammer factoring in Leftovers), will be unable to do much back.
However, keep in mind that Scarf (assuming +Atk nature) forces it to lose some power. Minun with 252 HP has ~84% chance of surviving and OHKOing back. But even if Bellossom is out, Tropius makes an excellent counter: it resists all of Kingler's paltry movepool except for Rock Slide, which can them be laughed at by something else and forcing it out, with no investment whatsoever and neutral nature, which will be impossible. One of the best counters to Kingler is Parasect, which has Dry Skin, Spore to stop its sweep and can set up on it. Sure, you are correct in saying the only true counters to it are Grass types, and Crabhammer/X-Scissor/Rock Slide/filler is hard to counter, but using Kingler is difficult as well. It'll be forced out and possibly in a world of hurt if its user predicts incorrectly. CB sets are scary if some speed if passed to it, but again, with all the statuses running around, it'll have a hard time trying to switch in. SD Salac versions are a joke for obvious reasons, but if you can pull it off, more power to you.
I see Kingler as one of the potential big threats in NU, though, so like Vigoroth, it could or could not be.

It can also use Bite and Iron Tail (which isn't bad idea here with Mawile and Bastiodon being the only steel types and lack of bulky waters except Whishcash in NU). But ok, we'll see how this guy is popular. Maybe I'm mistaken here in calling it UU for sure.

I suppose you're referring to Stantler?
Steel types are a poor idea against Stantler due to Earthquake access. Bite and Iron Tail are a waste of Stantler's potential, not when it can double status with Hypnosis/T-wave, a good arsenal of moves to CM with, which it unvariably will get a chance to do due to good speed and Intimidate.
Of course, I suppose I'm speaking too much for it. If anything, I think it'll be a top-tier NU, up there with the likes of Bastiodon/Wormadam, the Bug sweepers, etc.

 

[sduclops231]

Will we be using X-Act's algorithm where 75% is the cutoff point to determine which Pokemon are UU and which are NU? If so, that results in 111 NU / "Limbo" (referring to BL NU) Pokemon, and 39 UU Pokemon.

The Pokemon that did not make the cutoff are:

Aggron
Ampharos
Arbok
Ariados
Armaldo
Banette
Bastiodon
Beautifly
Beedrill
Bellosom
Bibarel
Butterfree
Cacturne
Camerupt
Carnivine
Castform
Chatot
Cherrim
Chimecho
Clamperl
Cloyster
Corsola
Cradily
Crawdaunt
Delcatty
Delibird
Dewgong
Ditto
Dodrio
Dunsparce
Dustox
Electrode
Exploud
Farfech'd
Fearow
Flareon
Furret
Glalie
Girafarig
Golduck
Golem
Gorebyss
Granbull
Huntail
Illumise
Jumpluff
Jynx
Kecleon
Kingler
Ledian
Linoone
Lopunny
Lumineon
Lunatone
Luvdisc
Luxray
Magcargo
Mantine
Masquerain
Mawile
Mightyena
Minun
Mothim
Mr. Mime
Muk
Noctowl
Octillery
Pachirisu
Parasect
Pelipper
Pidgeot
Pikachu
Plusle
Politoed
Phione
Purugly
Quagsire
Qwilfish
Raichu
Raticate
Relicanth
Sableye
Sandslash
Seaking
Seviper
Shiftry
Shuckle
Skuntank
Solrock
Spinda
Stantler
Sudowoodo
Sunflora
Swalot
Torkoal
Trapinch
Tropius
Unown
Vespiquen
Volbeat
Victreebel
Vigoroth
Wailord
Walrein
Whiscash
Wigglytuff
Wormadam
Wormadam-Ground
Wormadam-Steel
Xatu

This list is obviously not balanced, which is why I believe a BL tier between NU and UU is needed to ban some of these from NU (Jumpluff and Jynx, for example).

 

[Age of Kings]

We won't be making yet another tier, it would be way too messy. Those that didn't make the cut and are clearly unbalanced for NU would just remain UU. Although the algorithm will be useful for things like Solrock/Lunatone noted above.

 

[umbarsc]

How is making another tier "too messy"? It makes perfect sense to create a tier to balance NU.

 

[Age of Kings]

"Too messy" is splitting up our current UU tier into 3 separate ones, but then again we have 150 Pokemon in it. Unless your plan is to make UU structured like OU (i.e. just those 39 Pokemon) and the ones too powerful for NU lumped to UU BL (acronym: UL for underline?). So now we're making a whole new tier just to keep UU clean and weeded and NU balanced and playable. Maybe. Maybe not. =/

Because I'm bored, I'm going to post the list of Pokemon that would be in it (thanks sduclops), if such a tier would exist.

EDIT;; Our list would look like (Slowking was included in the list...iirc Slowking is BL):
Aggron
Ampharos
Armaldo
Banette
Bellossom
Bibarel
Cacturne
Camerupt
Cloyster
Crawdaunt
Dewgong
Dodrio
Dunsparce
Electrode
Golduck
Golem
Gorebyss
Granbull
Huntail
Jumpluff
Jynx
Kingler
Linoone
Lopunny
Lunatone
Luxray
Mantine
Mr. Mime
Muk
Noctowl
Octillery
Pelipper
Pikachu
Politoed
Phione
Quagsire
Qwilfish
Raichu
Raticate
Relicanth
Sandslash
Shiftry
Shuckle
Solrock
Stantler
Sudowoodo
Torkoal
Vespiquen
Victreebel
Vigoroth
Wailord
Walrein

 

[umbarsc]

That makes perfect sense Age of Kings (what you were sarcastically suggesting, not what you were arguing). What reason is there not to create a new tier?

 

[Age of Kings]

That makes perfect sense Age of Kings (what you were sarcastically suggesting, not what you were arguing). What reason is there not to create a new tier?

I admit I answered my concerns for myself...it wasn't sarcastic, actually. xD

I got the list up, and I already think that at least Lunatone should be moved down. There would be probably be opposition to Solrock.

 

[weatherelitefour]

For now the hypothetical NU tier looks good to me, except I'm wondering if Uber viability is included in this.

In that case, Seaking should definitely be removed from NU.

If not, then oh well.

I don't really care, just pointing it out.

 

[Bourbon]

Aggron
Ampharos
Armaldo
Banette
Bellossom
Bibarel
Cacturne
Camerupt
Cloyster
Crawdaunt
Dewgong
Dodrio
Dunsparce
Electrode
Golduck
Golem
Gorebyss
Granbull
Huntail
Jumpluff
Jynx
Kingler
Linoone
Lopunny
Lunatone
Luxray
Mantine
Mr. Mime
Muk
Noctowl
Octillery
Pelipper
Pikachu
Politoed
Phione
Quagsire
Qwilfish
Raichu
Raticate
Relicanth
Sandslash
Shiftry
Shuckle
Solrock
Stantler
Sudowoodo
Torkoal
Vespiquen
Victreebel
Vigoroth
Wailord
Walrein

I think it's pretty clear that these pokemon should not be sent down to NU. They're far too powerful. While NU should be based on usage, some of them shouldn't be allowed in because of power. However, I do not think a new tier is needed just for this purpose, just leave em in UU.

 

[umbarsc]

It makes absolutely no sense not to create a new tier. The definition of UU should not be "Pokemon that make up the top 75% of usage in UU and Pokemon that do not meet the prior requirement but are overpowering in NU". Why not separate that long definition into two different tiers?

Also, Lunatone I think could prove to be a pretty powerful Calm Minder. Raichu also should be moved up with Pikachu, Bannette needs testing in my opinion, and Mr. Mime needs testing as well, but I could very easily picture Mr. Mime to be a dominating force. Quite fast, good SpA, good movepool.

 

[Winto]

I thought it was already put nicely in this thread that NU will not be based on usage alone, so I think it will be fine.

And... the list above by Age of Kings is the tier between UU and NU anyway, right?

 

[umbarsc]

That thread actually explained why we do need a tier between NU and UU.

Remember that OU is defined as the top 75% of the Pokemon usages. If a Pokemon is OU, there can be no debate as to whether it is allowed in UU. By putting a Pokemon instead in BL, you are saying "Current forces in UU are not enough to counter the effect of this Pokemon effectively.". In the future, there may be a new style of play that makes a certain BL Pokemon acceptable. By merging OU and BL, it makes discussion of tiers more difficult and turns OU into "banned from BL either based on it's effect on UU or based on how much it's used in OU", which I think is more complicated than having two tiers for banning from UU.

Just replace "OU" with "UU and "UU" with "NU".

 

[Winto]

I just realized how awkwardly-worded my reply was...

Sorry, that is what I was implying, my post was actually directed at skiddle.

->

While NU should be based on usage, some of them shouldn't be allowed in because of power.

 

[weatherelitefour]

I think it's pretty clear that these pokemon should not be sent down to NU. They're far too powerful.

I agree completely.
Why the heck would someone have the sense to put Aggron in NU? It's not BAD, just outclassed by Steelix.

Others that stuck out were Cacturne and Jynx.

 

[umbarsc]

Oh, I see what you were saying. I thought you were saying "NU isn't based off of usage anyways so there's no point in creating a separate tier"

 

[Evil Hamster]

I'm in agreement with most of the ones Skiddle suggested, though I'm on the fence about Banette; sure, it's got massive Attack, but only Shadow Claw can really abuse it. It's slow (though Shadow Sneak somewhat makes up for that) has sub-standard defenses and doesn't seem too overwhelming. I haven't used it though (however, I have faced several) so my opinion probably doesn't carry much weight.

Gorebyss and Cloyster were the only ones that Skiddle hasn't already highlighted that I've got reservations about. Gorebyss would be broken as a Rain Dancer, as it plays similarly to Omastar with only 1 base point less SpA. Cloyster's typing lets it down obviously, but it's still capable of walling a massive number of physical threats and would likely be dominant if not overpowering in NU.

EDIT: Oh, and Relicanth. Not only did it barely miss out on the top 75%, but CB Head Smash would probably be too much.

 

[blasphemy1]

I played with my friends many times on NU tier and I love it. And I agree with many points, but I need to disagree to some.


Pidgeot - I never likes when someone used flying pokemon in tier full of bug pokemon, but I think he won't be that threatening like Fearow in attacking terms in my opinion. I think people will use him most of times for defensive potential.

You do realize that Pidgeot is more offensively capable than Fearow, right? Sure, it has Featherdance to work with, but STAB Brave Bird is nothing to forget. Fearow must work with Drill Peck...

I also have no idea why Golem is NU? With all the bug types, its 110 base attack and STAB rock attacks is going to be way too powerful. 130 base defense is very good, too good for NU. There are pokemon who do its job similar, like Steelix and Rhyperior(if BL is allowed in UU), but Golem has a few noteworthy options. First of all it has a much better attack stat than Steelix, and its advantage over Rhyperior is Explosion. There is really no reason to move Golem down to NU as you are just allowing him to sweep everything with Rock Polish. Who cares if he isn't used much in UU? Isn't that what the game is for? Using subpar pokemon?