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Pokemon Platinum - The definitive thread: Mach 3 (Competitive Discussion)

EDIT: Gah just reread the post and it made no sense xD

I just wish some things, like Jumpluff, had gotten baton pass...even if it was unlikely in the first place lol.
 
I don't know how useful a competitive discussion will be when we don't have full information on the tutor moves.

Example:

Ice Punch on Rampardos. Rampardos learns every Ice TM except for Hail.

Speaking of Rampardos, he's the beneficiary of Superpower, Fire Punch, and Thunderpunch.

Superpower is a good deal stronger than Hammer Arm and more accurate, Thunderpunch lets it hit waters far more reliably than Stone Edge without wasting precious Stone Edge PP.

Curselix is also insanely awesome >_>. GL to anything switching in, Gyro Ball already hits most things for 150 BP, after a Curse it will smack basically everything that hard and with 50% more power to boot. That it makes non-Stab physical attacks even more laughable is just a perk.

Luxray now has a decent physical attack, one that hits its rock and especially Steel counters very hard. Blissey doesn't want to get anywhere near a Female Luxray (though Female Luxray probably suffers everywhere else).

And, weird as it may be, Bug Bite Shuckle might find some use eating up random berries.

Same if Walrein gets Dive. If any move could possibly make Stalrein more annoying, Dive is it.
 
I honestly say that our suspect ladder never suspected the incredible overhaul to the metagame Platinum has brought. I would honestly say that the current tiers aren't going to change, they're going to be rewritten. If it were up to me I'd treat it as testing the game and tiers all over again, from the beginning, starting with the ubers, then moving on to OU, UU, and NU. Pokemon that are getting altered aren't the only pokemon that are going to move, pokemon that used to counter them that don't and pokemon the changed pokemon counter are moving down, while these expanded movepool pokemon, and the pokemon that counter them, are moving up.

We seriously cannot predict what the new metagame is going to look like, so I would say we pull the stops and test everything at once. Everything.
I agree with you completely. But here on Smogon it's easier to especulate tiers than to actually test them.
 
Also for the people saying Dragonite got Superpower but Salamence didn't...this is only according to the battle frontier list thingy.

For all we know, Salamence could also have gotten Superpowder.
 
Ah, good point. Salamence may get it to. If so, that's the smex. I'm going to get a salamence over there and test it asap. It it does, it would pure love.
 
Fire Punch Rampardos. Finally gets something to hit the Steels. With Adamant nature and Life Orb, it 2HKOs Skarm most of the time with Stealth Rock out (and that's 252/252 Impish Skarm, which isn't exactly the standard).

Stone Edge hits Skarmory just as hard as Fire Punch; Fire Punch is pretty much useless outside of Forry and Scizor. Ice Punch is where it's at (assuming he gets it which is likely enough considering he learns Ice Beam). Bulky Grounds such as Hippowdon and to a lesser extent Gliscor are Rampardos' main counters but Ice Punch will put an end to that. That narrows his counters down to...um...Swampert?

Same if Walrein gets Dive. If any move could possibly make Stalrein more annoying, Dive is it.

Walrein learned Dive in RSE...not sure if he can be transferred over with it though, being an HM and all.
 
So I don't see anything in all this that really helps a stall team. Basically lots of pokemon got ways to hurt their counters better if anything.
 
Yeah, Celebi needed a bit of a nerf. I am so tired of it switching in to Super Effective moves and trying to Recover stall you. It accomplishes nothing but it's so darn annoying.

Like when Blissey uses Softboiled to delay Dugtrio from killing it... :/
 
Stone Edge hits Skarmory just as hard as Fire Punch; Fire Punch is pretty much useless outside of Forry and Scizor. Ice Punch is where it's at (assuming he gets it which is likely enough considering he learns Ice Beam). Bulky Grounds such as Hippowdon and to a lesser extent Gliscor are Rampardos' main counters but Ice Punch will put an end to that. That narrows his counters down to...um...Swampert?



Walrein learned Dive in RSE...not sure if he can be transferred over with it though, being an HM and all.

Max Attack Adamant CB Rampardos Ice Punch to 252/252 Impish Hippowdon:

49-58%.

That's... a reliable 2HKO factoring in Leftovers, brutal if Spikes or Toxic Spikes are down.

Lets just pray Rampardos didn't get Seed Bomb or Ice Punch lol >_>

Also, Rampardos already had Mold Breaker and Earthquake for its most likely foe, Bronzong, and access to Fire Blast so it already had a good attack for Steels. Fire Punch being physical just means CB Rampardos' stock went up.

Thunderpunch is the main thing though. Being able to reliably hit Waters now is a huge deal, since where before they could hope for Stone MISS, they're now SOL.

One other thing: Iron Defense/Mirror Coat Blastoise actually sounds pretty neat. Blastoise's only physical weaknesses are to Thunderpunch and Seed Bomb, which granted will be more prolific now, but they're hardly unpredictable. Blastoise already takes EQ like a champ.

HMs can't be transferred through Pal Park, sadly, so the Tutor will be the only way to get a legit Diving Walrein.
 
>.> Magnet Rise Luxray = WTF Gunk Shot Infernape = Bigger WTF. Other then that, I'm loving it. Bug bite on Fortress is alittle odd, but whatever. Absol is gonna be loving this (not to mention Probopass and Steelix and Rampardos and Victreebel and everythign else )
 
Guys, I need to find out if there is Vacuum Wave Alakazam, augh, I brainstormed the idea a while ago. I was thinking, "what move(s) could make Alakazam relevant again" and Vacuum Wave was one of my better ideas. Followed by Aura Sphere and Nasty Plot of course, lol.

If there is Vacuum Wave on it, it's time to do a rebreed >:D
 
HMs can't be transferred through Pal Park, sadly, so the Tutor will be the only way to get a legit Diving Walrein.

Yeah, there was just a little niggling doubt in my mind since whilst Dive is an HM in RSE, it isn't actually an HM in DP.

No word on Vacuum Wave 'Zam, but it's reasonable enough to expect it. An early list of Move Tutors that has gained a lot more credibility since this info came out earlier tonight, lists Vacuum Wave as a teachable move. I see no reason why 'Zam wouldn't learn it. If it happens, it's a wonderful way to get rid of his bane; Weavile.

Tyranitar must be kicking himself that Superpower has become so widely available...it would be nice to see Weavile learn it as he would really appreciate some decent BP moves.
 
that whatever would probably be waterfall / double-edge, and yes, a Choice Band version of that is very interesting.
 
Oh yeah, and now that Steelix gets Curse, I'm pretty sure that's the final nail in its UU Status Coffin. It's already the Garchomp of UU, and just got a move that enhances its two most used stats. If you thought your Aerodactyl's did crap before, wait till you switch in on a Curse >_>. (Granted any Aero switching into Steelix should be Sashed at least and have Fire Blast)

Honestly we won't know the full effects until we can test each pokemon for Tutor Moves ourselves. It looks like Superpower is DP's most whored attack with Aqua Tail not close behind, and who knows which pokemon get the more obscure moves.
 
^That should not be long from now. I will be at the first town with tutors soon. I'll make sure to move my .sav file to my computer before using any of them so that we can test them.
 

Ominous Wind
- Moltres, Suicune, Salamence, Yanmega, Ninetales, Togekiss, Altaria, Vespiquen

Out of them, Togekiss is the only significant addition, since Serene Grace raising Ominious Wind's secondary effect to 20%. Still, it already learned Shadow Ball for a stronger Ghost attack, and already had Ancientpower for Ominous Wind's secondary effect (of which it had no stronger Rock move substitute).

Twister - Zapdos, Crobat

Meh, without Serene Grace, its 40 Base Power really is not worth it for such a meh typing.
Air Cutter - Articuno, Zapdos, Drifblim, Altaria, Honchkrow, Yanmega, Vespiquen, Xatu, Mantine, Pelipper

Meh move, no comment.

Signal Beam - Articuno, Cresselia, Regice, Magnezone, Glaceon, Espeon, Jolteon, Vaporeon, Hypno, Electrode, Manectric, Togekiss, Electivire, Starmie, Slowking, Alakazam, Slowbro, Froslass, Raichu, Jynx, Empoleon, Luxray, Bronzong, Claydol, Mr. Mime, Blastoise, Wormadam

A move with okay BP and a good typing, should be a good addition to a lot of those Pokemon's movepools, several of which will really benefit for having very shallow movepools a (Jolteon, Magnezone, Cresselia, etc.).

Magnet Rise - Luxray
As it's been said before, No Weaknesses FTW! Platinum's being very kind of Luxray so far, with Signal Beam, Magnet Rise, and Superpower.

Earth Power - Regigigas, Whiscash, Quagsire, Swampert, Garchomp

The Three Water/Grounds can make good use of this move, but Earthquake is probably better either way.

Iron Head - Raikou, Entei, Suicune, Kingdra, Probopass, Magnezone, Mamoswine, Bronzong, Miltank

All pretty meh. Raikou might be able to use it for the Speed Advantage, but Bronzong's Gyro Ball will almost always be stronger anyway, and Mags and Probo can't really viably use Physical attacks anyway.

Icy Wind - Suicune, Drifblim, Mismagius, Tentacruel, Whiscash, Blastoise, Octillery

Meh move for standards. Suicune might better function as an SD Yache Chomp counter with it, though, with the first hit lowering SD Chomp's Speed and taking its Yache Berry away, and the second hit allowing it to outspeed Chomp and Ice Beam for the KO (i've done the calculations: 0 Special Attack EV Suicune vs. 4 Special Defense Garchomp w/ Yache. Icy Wind through Yache Berry would do at least 23% damage, and the Ice Beam after it would do at least 81%. Maybe Blastoise can to, though it already knew Icy Wind didn't it?).

Outrage - Salamence, Flygon, Nidoking, Kingdra, Snorlax, Gyarados, Lapras, Rhydon, Tauros, Marowak, Venusaur

Salamence being the obvious best receiver of this move. Dragonite's almost obsolete now thanks to that. Now it's going to be even harder to switch into Salamence. Flygon would still like Dragon Dance, though. Nidoking can also now pull off an Earthquake/Outrage/Fire Blast/Filler set. Snorlax and Gyarados can also make okay use of the move.

Superpower - Dragonite, Flareon, Rampardos, Absol, Blaziken, Tyranitar, Snorlax, Mamoswine, Hippowdon, Luxray, Ursaring, Pinsir, Armaldo, Honchkrow, Donphan, Golem

....... okay, better question, which of these Pokemon do NOT benefit significantly from getting Superpower?

Seed Bomb - Donphan, Cradily, Shiftry, Snorlax, Ambipom, Vileplume, Victreebel, Carnivine, Jumpluff

Interesting move to say the least, Grass is an okay attacking type, and a good addition to many of these Pokemon's movepools. Cradily and Shiftry can obviously make good use of it due to STAB, and Donphan might be able to make good use of this move since it would hit Grounds, Rocks, and Waters harder than Earthquake (and of course, hi2u Swampert).

Heat Wave - Zapdos, Togekiss, Crobat

Zapdos gets a welcome addition to its tiny movepool. Togekiss, meanwhile, already had Flamethrower which had the exact same burn chance.

Dive - Politoed, Lanturn, Quagsire, Cloyster

Ludicolo wants Dive back dammit. It's probably the only Pokemon that can make the most use out of the move. So it had better get it by the time the game is released.

Trick - Porygon-Z, Drifblim

Always a welcome move, though neither of those can make very good use of it.

Zen Headbutt - Bronzong, Claydol, Lapras, Blastoise

Bronzong seems to be the only one that can make good use of it because of STAB, and none of them can really utilize its flinching effect.

Gunk Shot - Toxicroak, Slaking, Snorlax, Ambipom, Donphan, Infernape

Lol, Poison.

ThunderPunch - Ambipom, Rampardos, Lucario, Toxicroak, Flygon, Probopass

Once again, most of those Pokes benefit greatly from getting a good physical Electric move. Lucario especially, now Gyarados wont be able to safely switch into it.

Fire Punch - Ambipom, Rampardos, Probopass
Ambipom likes any addition to its movepool. It doesn't get a Technitian boost from it, sadly. There had better be more guys that get it..

Ice Punch - Ambipom, Lucario, Toxicroak, Floatzel, Probopass

Well shit, there goes Gliscor as a 100% physical Lucario counter. Toxiccroak and Ambipom again like getting any addition to their physical movepools, and Floatzel wont just have to stick with Ice Fang.

Sucker Punch - Shiftry, Froslass, Golem, Skuntank

Shiftry gets a huge boost thanks to STAB on this priority move. Skuntank also gets STAB, but Skuntank fails at life.

Aqua Tail - Lapras, Walrein, Drapion, Seviper, Gligar, Quagsire, Salamence, Swampert, Slowbro, Slowking, Armaldo, Rhyperior, Golduck, Tyranitar, Garchomp, Floatzel

Meh, Waterfall is probably a bit better on those who learn it. Though some of those that don't learn it welcome having a physical water move they can use.

Vacuum Wave - Poliwrath

Meh.

Knock Off - Toxicroak, Ambipom, Empoleon

Good move, Empoleon would probably make the best use of it.
 
Fire Punch Rampardos. Finally gets something to hit the Steels.

GG at totally fucking up Rampardos's ability... the only Steel immune to EQ is Skarm who's neutral to Stone Edge anyway.

Anyway, Knock Off Empoleon: Yay, now my favorite Pokémon finally has my second favorite Pokémon's most used attack! Woo! Minor change that helps him a lot... imagine Knocking Off an incoming Blissey, Tentacruel's Leftovers or something!

Is Superpower Absol enough of an addition to move him up a tier or two? Perhaps. He no longer needs a Swords Dance to OHKO Tyranitar and now can seriously threaten Steel-types. But while taking care of Absol's 3rd biggest flaw (paper defenses and low speed being the first two) is really great, Swords Dance Superpower kinda sucks as you get weaker with it...

Ice Punch Lucario
seems to be a non-issue for SD sets. As you could already run HP Ice on Lucario with no EV investment to get the same effect (raping Gliscor), you still have to either give up ExtremeSpeed or a vital coverage move to use it. So all it does is shift around who "counters" it a bit.

Bullet Punch Scizor
is the most awesomest thing ever. Metagross in Ubers can go fuck himself, Scizor is here with an even STRONGER priority!

Trick
suits Porygon-Z perfectly, to be honest.

Porygon-Z @ Choice Scarf
Adaptability
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd; Modest
- Trick
- Nasty Plot
- Tri Attack
- Dark Pulse

To start, you scout out the team. Wear things down with Tri Attacks on switches. Is it an offensive team? Keep the item and wear down the opponent on switches. Stall team? Get rid of the mostly burdensome item (try doing it to Blissey to really fuck them up), come back late, Nasty Plot up, and sweep!
 
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