A Re-Examination of Georgia vs Russia

[Peanut-Lover]

This needed to be posted as a result of a heated debate in the Election topic.

Here's a short summary of what happened, in chronological order. Taken from Facebook:

On the night of 7th of August, Georgia started military actions to claim back its theritory of South Osetia. However, Russian military got involved into this conflict as well. The USA has officially condemned the actions of Russia.
august 08, 10 50 am- Russia says it will attack Georgia because most of Ossetins have Russian citizenship.
august 08, 2 40 pm- Russia sends over 150 tanks to the sovereign country of Georgia. Georgia to declaire war on Russia.
august 08, 3 10 pm- Russia starts bombing Georgian military air base near Tbilisi
august 08, 6 20 pm- Russia bombs the town of Gori. Four people reported to be killed. UN security council gathers to a new meeting.
august 08, 9 37pm- Russia keeps on attacking Georgian posts. Georgia has lost arround 30 troops so far, Russia-10.
august 09, 2 45am- CNN reports, that Tbilisi is being bombed. A few hours ago Russia bombed one of the port-towns of Georgia.
august 09, 4 00am-the ambasador of Russia in the UN says that bombings might only stop if Georgia appologises to Russia.
august 09, 10 30 am- Russia continues on bombing Georgia. While attacking the town of Gori, russians killed many civilians.
august 09, 11 am- Russia claims to have taken the town of Tshinvali.
AUGUST 09: GEORGIA ANNOUNCES MARTIAL LAW IN THE COUNTRY, MOST GEORGIAN INTERNET PAGES ARE NOT ACCESSABLE
august 09, 12pm- The minister of Russian foregin affairs S. Lavrov has threatened Georgia "not to feel safe now" in the press conference.
august 09, 2 00pm- Russia starts bombing peaceful vilages in Kodori peak along with the military bases. Most of the locals are georgians.
august 09, 3 05pm-Abkhasia starts offensive fights against Georgia.
august 10, 12 40pm-Russia officailly blocks the Georgian coast, thus banning any possible comunication by sea. Abkhasia has started attacking Georiga thus opening the second front line.
august 10, 5 15pm- Gergia pulls out of S. Osetia and offers peace talks to Russia.
august 10 6 15pm- Russia receives the peace talks offer, however the bombings continue. French minister of foreign affairs to visit Georgia. He will be the second minister from the EU after Lithuanian to visit Georgia during this war.
august 11, 9 20am-The USA has once more strongly critisised russian war actions in Georgia. Mneawhile, Russia STARTED OCCUPYING ABKHASIA AND CONTINUES BOMBING GEORGIA
august 11, 4 40pm- Russia keeps offensive fights and anexes the town of Zugdidi(sp?). French president to visit Tbilisi.
august 12- GEORGIAN GOVERNMENT LOSES CONTROL OF BIGGER PART OF THE COUNTRY. Also, the President of Lithuania will offer NATO to support Georgian military.
august 13- Russia reports to have lost 74 soldiers. Georgian villages are being robbed currently in S. Osetia. Both Georgia and Russia hava announced mourns in their countries. UPDATE: RUSSIAN SOLDIERS IN GORI ARE SETTING GEORGIAN HOMES ON FIRE, ROBBING THE CIVILLIANS.
Update: Russian soldiers claim they were told to conquer Tbilisi before being called out of Georgia.
august 14- Lithuania has already sent 3 planes with humanitarian aid, and the citizens of Lithuania have already donnated arround 18 000 euros to Georgia
august 15- Estonian volounteers left to help Georgia

Many of you might think "Georgia went into South Osettia, unprovoked, just to stir up trouble during the olympics". See, you got one part right - a country went in, unprovoked, just to stir up trouble during the olympics. That country though, was RUSSIA.

2 am, August 6th - Approximately 5 Russian military persona crossed the border of Russia/South Osettia and in fact moved right through to Georgia - just long enough to be seen, before running cowardly back into South Osettia.

Why? Well, lets look back at the timeline a bit longer...

Some time within the last decade, South Ossetia declared independance - Russia recognised it immediately, but Georgia and very other country said no.

Earlier this year, the United States sets up a missile defense system in Poland. Russia was very unease about this, and demanded that it be removed. The US declared that it is to protect Europe and the United States from missile attacks by Middle East troublemakers. Russia still demands that the missiles be reomved, based solely on the fact that it could threaten Russia.

---->Georgian invasion of South Ossetia<-----

August 17, 2008 (after cease-fire signed): 4 American Humvees, bound for the United States, are commandeered at the port city of Poti http://www.journalinquirer.com/articles/2008/08/22/national_and_world/doc48aafbe93b9ec579528169.txt In addition 20-40 Georgian military personnel escorting the humvees were blindfolded and taken prisoner. This on top of other cease-fire violations, is enough to show that Russia has been an agressor from the start, and not Georgia or the United States.

August 22, 2008 - Russia signs an arms deal with Syria. Why? I don't know - maybe be cause Russia is forming an axis with Syria/Iran/Pakistan/China to bring the US down?

On top of this, the only people killed in South Ossetia were non-Georgian citizens, and goddamit Georgia has a right to kill any non-citizens if they pose a threat to scoiety (personally, I wish the US would do the same with 90% of our Russian population - they are a threat to society based solely on the fact that they are here, but now is neither the time nor palce). The Russian citizens of South Ossetia (the reason that Russia felt the need to invade, to protect its citizens) should not have been there if they were causing trouble. And if they wanted Russia's protection, go to proper Russian soil for sed protection.


Cuchonchuir - is this proof enough that Georgia did not take part in ethnic cleansing?

 

[Hipmonlee]

August 8 - Early in the morning, Georgia launched a military offensive to surround and capture Tskhinvali,[80] breaking the terms of the 1992 ceasefire and crossing into the security zone established therein.[81] According to a Russian military official, over ten Russian Peacekeeping force servicemen stationed in Tskhinvali were killed during the attack.[82] The heavy shelling, which included Georgian rockets being fired into South Ossetia[83] left parts of the capital city in ruins, which Russian government sources claimed amounted to genocide. The news of the shelling was extensively covered by Russian media prior to the military reaction that followed, as Russia claimed to have responded in defense of South Ossetians against what they called "a genocide by Georgian forces."[84] Russia claimed civilian casualties may amount up to 2,000 dead in Tskhinvali following the Georgian shelling.[85] The extent of civilian casualties was later disputed in a number of sources, with Human Rights Watch report speaking of only 44 dead in Tskhinvali's city hospital, leveled with the Grad multiple missile systems during the shelling of the city. The Tskhinvali hospital, HRW reports, was under constant shelling for 18 hours. [86] [87] President Saakashvili countered with allegations that the Russians had deployed tanks into the disputed region before he gave the order for Georgian forces to attack,[88]. At Russia’s request, the United Nations Security Council held consultations on 7 August at 11pm (US EST time), followed by an open meeting at 1.15am (US EST time) on 8 August, with Georgia attending. During consultations, Council members discussed a press statement that called for an end to hostilities. They were unable, however, to come to a consensus.[89] In the morning, Georgia announced that it had surrounded the city and captured eight South Ossetian villages.[90] An independent Georgian television station announced that Georgian military took control of the city.[91]
Russia sent troops across the Georgian border, into South Ossetia.

This is mostly missing from your timeline there.

Some time within the last decade, South Ossetia declared independance - Russia recognised it immediately, but Georgia and very other country said no.

As far as I am aware this isnt true. Or is at least extremely misleading.

This on top of other cease-fire violations, is enough to show that Russia has been an agressor from the start, and not Georgia or the United States.

No it isnt.

On top of this, the only people killed in South Ossetia were non-Georgian citizens, and goddamit Georgia has a right to kill any non-citizens if they pose a threat to scoiety (personally, I wish the US would do the same with 90% of our Russian population - they are a threat to society based solely on the fact that they are here, but now is neither the time nor palce). The Russian citizens of South Ossetia (the reason that Russia felt the need to invade, to protect its citizens) should not have been there if they were causing trouble. And if they wanted Russia's protection, go to proper Russian soil for sed protection.

????

Have a nice day.

 

[spies]

On top of this, the only people killed in South Ossetia were non-Georgian citizens, and goddamit Georgia has a right to kill any non-citizens if they pose a threat to scoiety (personally, I wish the US would do the same with 90% of our Russian population - they are a threat to society based solely on the fact that they are here, but now is neither the time nor palce).

Well isn't that just... bizarre

 

[Misty]

From my perspective, it seems that Saakashvili (who, by the way, campaigned on a promise to regain control of Abkhazia and South Ossetia) was goaded into an idiotic war. Had Russia stopped at the South Ossetian border, it's easy to imagine them winning a huge moral victory. However, Russia obviously planned to use this opportunity to gain something that they felt was more important - the removal of Saakashvili and his replacement by a more pro-Russian leader. It remains to be seen whether or not they will succeed - Saakashvili still seems relatively popular for now. I sense that, barring new events, he'll survive.

The best part of all this, really, is that Russia has taken it on the chin without a single shot being fired since the war. Their stock market was plummeting before the current financial crisis, and the drop in the price of oil surely hasn't helped - although it's nowhere near a level that could do damage on its own, and I'm worried that the Fed's plan will stoke inflation again.

Ultimately, a calm but firm approach is the right one. Bush and Europe have been a bit weakhearted on this, and understandably so, but there's a lot of give that Russia will give them that they aren't taking advantage of. I don't think McCain's heavy-handed approach is appropriate, though.

 

[Kietharr]

Georgia was doing nothing short of trying to finish their first ill fated attempt at genocide against the Ossetians. Russia had a right to move in and stop them. Did they have a right to start kicking the shit out of Georgia proper? Probably not, but it's not like America has the moral high ground on the subject.

Keep in mind that South Ossetia is not culturally nor has it ever been culturally a part of Georgia. It has only been Georgian territory since the fall of the USSR.

Also LOL at your "THEY AREN'T GEORGIANS SO ITS OK TO GENOCIDE THEM" comment, look past your petty nationalism please. It's like saying we should slaughter all of the Mexicans in our country, even those who's families were there before the border crossed them. Genocide is never justifiable, and you sir are an idiot for thinking otherwise.

 

[Hipmonlee]

but there's a lot of give that Russia will give them that they aren't taking advantage of.

Are you sure that pressuring the Russians to the brink of what you expect them to accept is wise?

I mean, aside from the possibility that your estimate of what they will give may be inaccurate, I dont think treating this situation as zero-sum is in the best interests of either country.

I mean, I know that there is no chance of anyone approaching the situation in this way, but I personally wish they'd try it.

Have a nice day.

 

[Shinryu]

If you ask me, this is probably the old, typical Russian response; strong-armed tactics. Consider that the leader of Georgia is basically an all-pro-USA guy; he even named a street after George Bush (eww). The US has done nothing except to alienate Russia since Bush came to power, I mean, setting up missiles in Poland and the like aren't making them very secure. Add the fact that all the old soviet blocks now want to join NATO (which itself is outdated) isn't making Russia anymore friendlier. So if you ask me, they're really just protecting their own sphere of influence, definitely not worse than what we're doing in Iraq.

 

[Misty]

Hip >> All I'm saying is that treating the Russians with kid gloves is probably counterproductive. Certainly, outright belligerence is counterproductive too.

The problem with Russia is that Bush has spent the past 7 years assuming that all of their problems could be solved through Bush and Putin's personal relationship - which prevented him from taking a more comprehensive approach that would try to work Russia into the international system and encourage good behavior. Instead we turned a blind eye while Putin stifled democracy, and then ignored him when he complained about the missile interceptors (which admittedly is a bit silly, given that the missile interceptors would have minimal effect against Russia's vast arsenal). Instead of encouraging good behavior, we've encouraged a return to frightened czarism and territorialism. Unfortunately, I don't think either presidential candidate has a recipe for improving this situation.

 

[Vineon]

Good grief, a good analysis of the situation would at least attempt to lay off some bias.

Many of you might think "Georgia went into South Osettia, unprovoked, just to stir up trouble during the olympics". See, you got one part right - a country went in, unprovoked, just to stir up trouble during the olympics. That country though, was RUSSIA.

Georgia first of all didn't 'go into South Ossetia' to "stir troubles" but to fight russian sympathisers which they claim are directly helped by Russia. I know this is not what you claim but this is not what anyone claims.

Secondly, theres a debate to have on whether Russia's reaction is legit. South Ossetian citizens see themselves as Russians foremost. As such, yes, targetting them can be seen as targetting Russia and its citizens.

Theres a point to be made on how exactly is South Ossetia's situation any different than the Kosovo.

Earlier this year, the United States sets up a missile defense system in Poland. Russia was very unease about this, and demanded that it be removed. The US declared that it is to protect Europe and the United States from missile attacks by Middle East troublemakers. Russia still demands that the missiles be reomved, based solely on the fact that it could threaten Russia.

And Russia should be pissed about it. Defense against the Middle East my ass, none of them besides US allied Israel have nukes to my knowledge. Russia however is the country with the most nuclear warheads on the planet.

The US still hold an embargo over Cuba for something similar. A possible Russian presence in Venezuela is enough to make some panic. In both cases, the United States saw/see it as a threat and so should Russia in regards to the missile defense system in Poland.

 

[Hipmonlee]

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060710/cohen

This is an interesting and very indepth (long) article about USA and Russian relations written back in 2006.

Politically, Moscow could truncate tiny Georgia and Moldova, and big Ukraine, by welcoming their large, pro-Russian territories into the Russian Federation or supporting their demands for independent statehood (as the West has been doing for Kosovo and Montenegro in Serbia).

Also I thought this was a good quote:

The only truly vital American interest in Russia today is preventing its stockpiles of mass destruction from endangering the world, whether through Russia's destabilization or hostility to the West.

Maybe I will make a new thread for this some time, there have been a few things I have heard recently that I found kinda interesting. This article, a couple of comments made by Robert Fisk while he was here promoting his book, and also a conversation I had about coverage of the NZ elections.

Have a nice day.