r u for real ? but on what game PBR?
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Official Nintendo Pokemon Tournament
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There are definitely some good players on it, and it won't necessarily take longer than waiting for someone to respond to a wifi double challenge. It isn't entirely accurate to the stadium-mode experience though (Four pokemon chosen from six based on seeing the opponent's team beforehand means often "hybrid" teams would be made) and it isn't a giant forum of eager players; I have gone through times where an opponent would literally disconnect, leaving me searching again for several minutes, only to reappear as my next opponent, having apparently gotten back on. It's far from a terrible system, and part of its scorn is due to the pokemon community's silent distaste of the console games, but it could stand to see better motivation (via prizes, like battle points for rarer TMs, or unlocking something like a new stadium, etc.), a few more enforced rules, a ladder or rank a la Battle Tower Wifi... and maybe less abbreviated communication with other players, since the only message that seemed to get across was contempt (DCing) or mockery (Attacking your own pokemon when victory was nigh).
I chalk it up to metagame differences. From the sound of it Japan has a bigger emphasis on double battles than we do. We have a metagame set up that directly clashes with Nintendo's rules. We play with Sleep Clause, single battles, and tiers. When staples like Salamence and Tyranitar are no longer allowed, players here used to using them are forced to find substitutes, which may or may not fill the role as well. Japan has much more practice with Nintendo's environment, so it's only natural that they perform better.
ok what do you mean by clashes with nintendo? if its a metagame we have to learn to adabt!! also r u saying the japanese has no tiers? and finally it was Dragonite and tyranitar not salamence.
The rules of our metagame are totally different from Nintendo's because that's what people here prefer. The battle community decided that being able to put as many Pokemon to sleep as we want was detrimental to the fun and competetiveness of battling, so we made a rule against it. Same with Evasion and OHKO attacks. We created an environment that we found preferable to Nintendo's rules, which many find lacking. Without practice in Nintendo's environment, we are at a disadvantage.
The tier comment was bad explanation on my part. I meant different tiering and such.
My bad with the Salamence thing. I keep forget it evolves at a lower level than Dragonite.
The tier comment was bad explanation on my part. I meant different tiering and such.
My bad with the Salamence thing. I keep forget it evolves at a lower level than Dragonite.
ok well i still want to know what is the top tiers for japan i really want an explanation. i have not been able to get an answer.
Edit: after reading it it seems like im screaming at you.lol
i mean i have been trying to study the meta for Jap but its hard since i dot know where to start?
I mentioned this earlier in the thread and nobody paid any attention. We need to switch our standard metagame to the Showdown's metagame. Plain and simple. We lose Shoddy but we gain information and intelligence about double battles.
There are less than one thousand posts in a thread that has tens of thousands of views. Just because no one responds to your comment doesn't mean it hasn't been noticed and considered.
I love double battles, and I have for a while, but I don't think it should become the one and only choice for players. People here enjoy Shoddybattle, and have their own tournaments on it, and as far as has been seen, the majority of people don't care enough about some distant tournament that a few people get to try to change their entire style of play.
Oh, well then I'll just stay up from 11 pm to 2 am pacific every night and battle against them!
....I might actually do that. >_>
If Shoddy would just have a double battle option or something like NetBattle did, part of the problem would be solved. Japan's metagame does conform closer to Nintendo's rules, which is why they tend to do better. Hopefully next year the US will get it's game on, and perform better.
vbmenu_register("postmenu_1445224", true);
My forums will be hosting a Showdown style 2vs2 Wi-Fi tournament on September 14th. You're bound to see lots of good and veteran players there that have taken up this rare meta-game that not too many have really taken too seriously yet in the US. Anyhow though, if you want to see more of what this meta-game is like you can test out your strategies in the tournament we'll be hosting, it will be double elimination, so everyone will get to play 2 matches.
If you'd like to join you can click on the link on my sig and find it yourself, or you can PM me for the actual tournament link. Not trying to disrespectfully advertise here, so I hope the Smogon mods won't get all bitchy about it. Just saying that if anyone wants to play more of this meta-game I'll be holding a tournament for fun.
Actually, Nintendo made this rule, and they've stayed very true to it. It wasn't until the 2007 Pokemon league that they decided to give the rule a boot. That's probably because the initial battles were done on the DS, not PBR.
I'm not entirely sure if you've noticed, but there's about 10 people in this thread complaining that we aren't playing the game to its true intentions. This community has 20, 000+ members. I'm pretty sure personal enjoyment is more important than training for 'the big game' 11 months of the year.
It shouldn't matter if someone makes an alternative metagame. If they want to ban fat Pokemon in their metagame, quite frankly, I could care less - I just won't battle them.
Lol. As an alternative, you could just study the videos of the regionals posted on youtube. I only know of one American player who did this, and he made it to the final four. Problem solved?
I'm pretty sure Japanese players had a pretty terrible disadvantage as well, with their teams being revealed and everything. Just saying.
And no, they don't just play doubles. They do, however, have a doubles metagame.
Singles Wiki:http://www18.atwiki.jp/dppokekousatsu/
Doubles Wiki: http://www25.atwiki.jp/poke-doublebattle
smogon: http://pokemon-underground.com
I can't read Japanese nor can I translate every webpage for you. Try using google, or make an asian friend.
i second this. i don't think PBR wifi is a horrible place to practice, but its something. and you can find good players once in a while and i've found this above comment to be accurate.
as a participant in the NYC qulaifiers, i am looking forward to next year's tourny. after reading all the comments in this thread.... i think there will be a flourishing group of people that want to take the double battle metagame to a defined and structured level. i found it very interesting and a totally different way of looking at the game as a whole. a lot of the unusal ablities and moves only make sense and are put to good use in doubles (ex. water absorb, own tempo). i think we just need time to appreciate and realize that there are other styles of play other than 6 vs. 6. as for me, i really liked playing something different. when you talk about OU in 6 vs 6, you ain't kidding.
It was indeed enforced in the Stadium games. However, it is the metagame community that enforces it within the cartridge battles. While Nintendo set a precedent, even while they chose to discontinue the rule for tournaments (hence the use of Dark Void Smeargle and such, and the initial battles being DS matches rather than PBR, where the rule could be enforced).
Where did I say we should favor Nintendo's rules? I simply put forth the idea that because our metagame differs from the format of Nintendo's tournaments we are at a disadvantage in these events to people who play with Nintendo's rules on a more regular basis. I wasn't suggesting that we change our own metagame in response.
While I far from believe that we should change our rules, I do believe that double battles should be an option. Watching videos, while helpful, is not enough. Pokemon is about honing one's prediction skills, which requires practice. With the doubles battle scene having such different mechanics and strategy involved, it would be prudent to allow players to practice in that environment.
lol thanks but i cant understand it either. all i want to know what is to them their ou's uu's and bl's.
also is garchomp such a big problem them as it is to us?
I don't believe so. There were some issues with Cresselia that lead to it being banned in certain Wi-Fi matches.
I don't think they have a tier list in the same sense we have one - as in different Pokemon for different metagames. Not to say that if you were to study Pokemon usage, there wouldn't be Pokemon used more than others. It'd be more analytical than anything else though.
They've also found use for Pokemon that are limited to our UU tier. You'll see Lanturn and Lapras used a lot, if you study some of their [singles] wi-fi matches.
@ Tleilax: sorry if I came off as aggressive, I just found it rather annoying that people are so bent on "honing their skills so we aren't humiliated again!!".
I don't think they have a tier list in the same sense we have one - as in different Pokemon for different metagames. Not to say that if you were to study Pokemon usage, there wouldn't be Pokemon used more than others. It'd be more analytical than anything else though.
They've also found use for Pokemon that are limited to our UU tier. You'll see Lanturn and Lapras used a lot, if you study some of their [singles] wi-fi matches.
@ Tleilax: sorry if I came off as aggressive, I just found it rather annoying that people are so bent on "honing their skills so we aren't humiliated again!!".
lol im going to do that tonighte.
Edit: try'd it and it worked so many japanese players on double
Paul (zerowing), Ray (bluecookies), Thomas (pkmnbb), Jeremy (bontakun), and Berton (Bluekikatana) are all fantastic players. Some of the ones I didn't meet are also great players. We very easily could have won more matches. Pokemon 4v4 double battles between two good players very often come down to a single move or prediction; yes, skill plays a dominant role, but sometimes skill meets skill, and no matter how much you metagame and prepare, you can win only 5 of the 10 matches against another equally competent person because the games are so closely played. Bad matchups, critical hits, mispredictions, missed Hypnoses, ... , I wouldn't read too much into single elimination battles when matches are so closely contested.
Some of the guys that were kind enough to practice with me are much, much more seasoned and skilled than I. Matthew (TheMaskedNitpicker), Chris (Ashenlock), Haruhi, and Michael (Duckster) did not even attend the Showdown, yet they could easily have placed higher than I did.
If any of you are reading this post, then I wish to thank you for practicing with me, especially Ashenlock, with whom I shared several series of spars. I really enjoyed our battles and gained most if not all of my experience from them. If any of them had my position at the end, I have no doubt he would be the Champion. It's great to be a part of a community of competitive players, and I hope we continue to play in preparation for next year.
School is starting for me pretty soon, but, if any of you want a weekend double battle on Diamond/Pearl, Platnium JP, or PBR, then please don't hesitate to email: halordain -at- gmail.com, or chris.tsai -at- stanford.edu. Replace -at- with @.
Take care,
~Halordain
Some of the guys that were kind enough to practice with me are much, much more seasoned and skilled than I. Matthew (TheMaskedNitpicker), Chris (Ashenlock), Haruhi, and Michael (Duckster) did not even attend the Showdown, yet they could easily have placed higher than I did.
If any of you are reading this post, then I wish to thank you for practicing with me, especially Ashenlock, with whom I shared several series of spars. I really enjoyed our battles and gained most if not all of my experience from them. If any of them had my position at the end, I have no doubt he would be the Champion. It's great to be a part of a community of competitive players, and I hope we continue to play in preparation for next year.
School is starting for me pretty soon, but, if any of you want a weekend double battle on Diamond/Pearl, Platnium JP, or PBR, then please don't hesitate to email: halordain -at- gmail.com, or chris.tsai -at- stanford.edu. Replace -at- with @.
Take care,
~Halordain
Hi, I'm a japanese and some of you may know me, since I had played Shoddy Battle for a few months an year ago, with user name "nh3 - Japenese"
I don't have an experience of participating in Nintendo's tournaments, but i have some knowledges of metagame in Japan.
Since platinum have been sold and the metagame is not clear, there are some informations about the team of champion of showdown 2008, what is called "MOLF PARTY" in Japan(molf is the champions handle)
here is her team,
Smeargle lv 1 @ Focus Sash
-Endeavor
-Fake Out
-Dark Void
-Follow Me
Bronzong lv 50 @ Chesto Berry
Levitate
-Trick Room
-Psychic
-Hypnosis
-Explosion
Metagross lv 50 @ Lum Berry
-Bullet Punch
-Hammer Arm
-Psych Up
-Rock Slide
Snorlax lv 50 @ Sitrus Berry
-Fire Punch
-Return
-Belly Drum
-Protect
Her team is consisted of many combos,
-Fake Out or Follow Me enables Bronzong to use Trick Room safely
-lv 1 Smeargle can move fastest under trickroom, and Endeavor + Psychic can make one pokemon fainted without fail
-Dark Void + Hypnosis can break through Lum Berry and Chesto Berry
-with Belly Drum + Psych Up, both Metagross and Snorlax become max power
Though her team became champion, she lost once at qualify.
The enemy used Discharge with Hippowdon then Smeargle fainted.
Now there is lv 50 Heatran in platinum, so metagame will change.
But the point that the move which hits several pkmn is effective won't change, i think.
I don't have an experience of participating in Nintendo's tournaments, but i have some knowledges of metagame in Japan.
Since platinum have been sold and the metagame is not clear, there are some informations about the team of champion of showdown 2008, what is called "MOLF PARTY" in Japan(molf is the champions handle)
here is her team,
Smeargle lv 1 @ Focus Sash
-Endeavor
-Fake Out
-Dark Void
-Follow Me
Bronzong lv 50 @ Chesto Berry
Levitate
-Trick Room
-Psychic
-Hypnosis
-Explosion
Metagross lv 50 @ Lum Berry
-Bullet Punch
-Hammer Arm
-Psych Up
-Rock Slide
Snorlax lv 50 @ Sitrus Berry
-Fire Punch
-Return
-Belly Drum
-Protect
Her team is consisted of many combos,
-Fake Out or Follow Me enables Bronzong to use Trick Room safely
-lv 1 Smeargle can move fastest under trickroom, and Endeavor + Psychic can make one pokemon fainted without fail
-Dark Void + Hypnosis can break through Lum Berry and Chesto Berry
-with Belly Drum + Psych Up, both Metagross and Snorlax become max power
Though her team became champion, she lost once at qualify.
The enemy used Discharge with Hippowdon then Smeargle fainted.
Now there is lv 50 Heatran in platinum, so metagame will change.
But the point that the move which hits several pkmn is effective won't change, i think.
That's a decent strategy, but she should replace Psychic with Gyro Ball/Flash Cannon so she won't be walled by Dark Types. I was also thinking how Sandstream would knock out Smeargle, but it looks like she found that out already.
I'm not sure if Heatran being level 50 changes much, it seems like Nintendo is bent on banning all legendary pokemon from the tournament. Thanks for sharing, it was pretty insightful.
I'm not sure if Heatran being level 50 changes much, it seems like Nintendo is bent on banning all legendary pokemon from the tournament. Thanks for sharing, it was pretty insightful.
Nintendo's ban list for the tournament was pretty much the same as they do for in game things (Battle Tower, XD Orre challenge) plus anything that cannot legitimately exist at or below level 50. Heatran would be able to participate, as would Regigigas if it is at or below level 50 in Platinum (Starts at level 1 right? I had heard that, haven't kept us closely enough).
But that is very interesting micuat. Do you know of any significant differences in the rules of the Japanese Pokemon metagame? Are things like Wobbuffet, Latios, and Latias banned, or is there ever any talk of the tiers? Are rules like the Sleep Clause and Species Clause different (It seems like Nintendo almost just allowed more than one pokemon to be put to sleep so that the move Dark Void wouldn't immediately be unusable)? Just curious.
But that is very interesting micuat. Do you know of any significant differences in the rules of the Japanese Pokemon metagame? Are things like Wobbuffet, Latios, and Latias banned, or is there ever any talk of the tiers? Are rules like the Sleep Clause and Species Clause different (It seems like Nintendo almost just allowed more than one pokemon to be put to sleep so that the move Dark Void wouldn't immediately be unusable)? Just curious.
For anyone interested, I typed this up for myself, but here is the slightly altered ban list for the 2009 World Tournament (please oh please include Canada in this one).
Could be more, but that was all I understood from the Japanese page. Also, any legendary birds you use must come from 3rd gen games still, seeing as how the Platinum ones are level 60.
Hypnosis Bronzong likely won't be used as much this time around, with 10% less accuracy in Platinum, but Dark Void Smeargle still exists, so whatever.
Code:
[B]Banned[/B]
Non-SAIKYO Dragonite
Mew
Mewtwo
Tyranitar
Lugia
Ho-oh
Celebi
Kyogre
Groudon
Rayquaza
Jirachi
Deoxys
[I]Rotom[/I]
Dialga
Palkia
Giratina
Phione
Manaphy
Darkrai
[I]Shaymin[/I]
Arceus
[B]Now Eligible [/B]
[I]SAIKYO Dragonite (Mild, Event Only)
Heatran (Level 50 in Pt)
Regigigas (Level 1 in Pt)[/I]
[B]Banned Items [/B]
Soul Dew
[B]Banned Moves[/B]
JudgmentCould be more, but that was all I understood from the Japanese page. Also, any legendary birds you use must come from 3rd gen games still, seeing as how the Platinum ones are level 60.
Hypnosis Bronzong likely won't be used as much this time around, with 10% less accuracy in Platinum, but Dark Void Smeargle still exists, so whatever.
micuat - I've seen the 'molf party' in action on few youtube videos, very effective. Thanks for posting it though.
Heatran is available in Platinum at lv. 50? That does change things a bit, especially for sunny day teams. I'm thinking that Nintendo won't ban it, because it's very similar to Latios/Latias, and they were not banned for Showdown 2008. So there's a good chance Heatran will be allowed in Showdown 2009. They both have the same total base stats, and are obtained at a legal level, so there's not really a reason to ban in imo. but we'll just have to wait and see.
@arseus = I agree, Bronzong usage will go down next year, if not simply because of the Hypnosis accuracy drop. And I'm 99% sure that Mewtwo would be banned, even though it's not on the page. And even if it's not on the page itself, it can't be gotten at lv. 50 or below, so that would exclude it anyways. :P
Heatran is available in Platinum at lv. 50? That does change things a bit, especially for sunny day teams. I'm thinking that Nintendo won't ban it, because it's very similar to Latios/Latias, and they were not banned for Showdown 2008. So there's a good chance Heatran will be allowed in Showdown 2009. They both have the same total base stats, and are obtained at a legal level, so there's not really a reason to ban in imo. but we'll just have to wait and see.
@arseus = I agree, Bronzong usage will go down next year, if not simply because of the Hypnosis accuracy drop. And I'm 99% sure that Mewtwo would be banned, even though it's not on the page. And even if it's not on the page itself, it can't be gotten at lv. 50 or below, so that would exclude it anyways. :P
Sudo,
Bronzong's phychic won't change, because there are few dark types used at double battle, and its former move was Gyro Ball but currently there are many Trickroom Teams.
Ashenlock,
There are no specified rules in Japan.
Banned pkmn is same as the battle tower, and there are no tiers. ( but there are some UU users like shima, you can find his videos at youtube )
Sleep Clause is an unspoken agreement at single battle, but at double battle, Dark Void is not banned ( some avoid using it, though )
There are strict Species Clause and Item Clause so no one use plural Leftovers.
There is a reason why Nintendo doesn't set Sleep Clause,
If Blissey is asleep and changed with another pkmn, foe can't tell if it is asleep or not.
Arseus,
your ban list is correct, except Mewtwo is banned and Dragonite is not banned ( there are lv 50 Dragonite at SAIKYO event, but its nature is Mild only so you can regard it as banned )
Hypnosis would be changed, but i can't tell what should be alternative.
Maybe she will change even pkmn, but there are still many copies of original molf party, so we should think how to deal with them.
POKEMONBATTLEBRAIN,
yes, Heatran is lv 50 in Platinum and it isn't banned.
It will be used to beat metagross and bronzong, I think. Sunny day team is under used.
Bronzong's phychic won't change, because there are few dark types used at double battle, and its former move was Gyro Ball but currently there are many Trickroom Teams.
Ashenlock,
There are no specified rules in Japan.
Banned pkmn is same as the battle tower, and there are no tiers. ( but there are some UU users like shima, you can find his videos at youtube )
Sleep Clause is an unspoken agreement at single battle, but at double battle, Dark Void is not banned ( some avoid using it, though )
There are strict Species Clause and Item Clause so no one use plural Leftovers.
There is a reason why Nintendo doesn't set Sleep Clause,
If Blissey is asleep and changed with another pkmn, foe can't tell if it is asleep or not.
Arseus,
your ban list is correct, except Mewtwo is banned and Dragonite is not banned ( there are lv 50 Dragonite at SAIKYO event, but its nature is Mild only so you can regard it as banned )
Hypnosis would be changed, but i can't tell what should be alternative.
Maybe she will change even pkmn, but there are still many copies of original molf party, so we should think how to deal with them.
POKEMONBATTLEBRAIN,
yes, Heatran is lv 50 in Platinum and it isn't banned.
It will be used to beat metagross and bronzong, I think. Sunny day team is under used.
I still think a major reason we did poorly was because a lot of our highly skilled players couldn't get past the raffle, whereas all of Japan's players got there by tournament, so they just had the advantage of sheer numbers.
However, where are we getting this info about a 2009 tournament? I really hope there is no raffle to get in lol.
However, where are we getting this info about a 2009 tournament? I really hope there is no raffle to get in lol.
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