Why would it matter how crappy it is in ubers? If it's too much for OU, it needs to be sent upstairs.
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Skymin Discussion Thread
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Why would it matter how crappy it is in ubers? If it's too much for OU, it needs to be sent upstairs.
It's not necessary to have one Pokemon that can switch into ALL of another Pokemon's attacks.
For example, I deal with Skymin with a couple of Scarf users. My Naive ScarfTran switches in on Seed Flare, Air Slash, or HP Fire/Ice (usually Seed Flare) and OHKOs with HP Ice. I also have a Timid Scarf Celebi that switches in on Earth Power and OHKOs with HP Ice (assuming Life Orb recoil); it also serves as backup if I'm outpredicted and lose Heatran to Earth Power. Granted, I also have a Wash Rotom that can switch in on Air Slash and Earth Power, a Hippo that can hit the Skymin switch-in with Ice Fang for an OHKO with SR up, and a Salamence that can come in on Seed Flare and OHKO with Fire Blast + Sandstorm + LO recoil, but I rely on the Scarvers to kill Skymin.
Quite frankly, needing two Scarf users to take care of one Pokemon seems excessive to me, and I can't really think of a better way to do it with the mostly-offensive team that I use. Still, I'll wait for more usage statistics to come in before I can make an educated opinion on whether Skymin should be Uber.
P.S. So far I've only seen one Skymin with a Yache Berry. If one of those came in early enough in the game, it could really cause havoc with my team...
Auto and Kagster, good points. I like the heatran observation actually, I wonder if Heatran being number one in the OU usage stats actually reflects more Shaymins coming out party this month, rather than a breakthrough in usefulness of heatran overall.
That would actually be quite a useful stat, to see just what is switching into shaymin overall. I'm not sure what kinds of stats Doug is compiling for the servers, but I'm thinking that might be one of them. It could help reflect just how much impact shaymin is having when teams are being made.
That would actually be quite a useful stat, to see just what is switching into shaymin overall. I'm not sure what kinds of stats Doug is compiling for the servers, but I'm thinking that might be one of them. It could help reflect just how much impact shaymin is having when teams are being made.
Then stop using fucking ice shards. Its that simple. Chomp was VERY easy to revenge kill. All you had to do was have a pokemon that can take 1 hit and do a decent hit to chomp, then one pokemon above 333 speed. That was it. Hell, Scarf any dragon was a 100% check against Garchomp. Every Yachechomp battle looked like this:
Chomp used Swords Dance
Switched in (anything bulky)
Chomp used EQ
Bulky Pokemon used Ice attack / Attack to do 30% damage or so
Revenge killer uses Close Combat / Ice Beam / anythin to make up the other 63%. Look at the Scarfers that could do that:
Flygon
Salamence
Dragonite
Kingdra
Garchomp
Heracross Close Combat!
Gengar
Heatran
Celebi
Sceptile
Jolteon (non-scarf)
Raikou (non-scarf)
Infernape (non-scarf)
LO Azelf
Scarf Azelf
Infernape (non-scarf)
The list can go on because their were plenty more. Hell I saw someone run Scarf Porygon Z and just use Hyperbeam to OHKO chomp.
Skymin on the other hand has a MUCH shorter list of things to revenge kill it and requires an Ice Shard user, a pokemon of the 130 speed group, or a Scarfer. Yup, you pretty much need a Scarfer, which means something else on your team can set up. That makes it more "dangerous" in my opinion.
Modest can 1hko offensive versions of deoxys with seed flare too. With scarf, it can also outspeed deoxys. I've actually played with that set, and sometimes rely on it to revenge kill deoxys.
@Skymin revenge killing topic-- maybe, but compared to Yache Garchomp, the power of Timid Skymin's offensive is pretty pathetic. It can't even 1hko Bulky Tyranitar with special defensive investment (and if you look at analysis, +SDEF or SDEF Evs on TTar is fairly common). Even Adamant 252 HP + some Special defensive can survive seedflare and 1hko with Stone Edge/Ice Beam/Ice Punch. My point demonstrating, standard skymin just does not hit very hard. It needs Scarf Modest or Specs to really nail it's enemies, but then of course you're being forced out even more easily and taking on SR damage.
Ok, you can look at it that way. But let's look at this as well. Garchomp is Dragon/Ground, giving it STAB on two great attacking types as well as only 1 common weakness. Not only that, but it gains a valuable resistance to rock. Skymin has a weakness to stealth rock, meaning it takes 25% almost every switch in, and has many more exploitable weakness's (fire, ice, flying, rock).
Garchomp had Swords Dance which immediatly doubled it's attack, while Skymin merely has Growth and that only boosts 1.5x. Yes, Seed Flare halves SpDef 6x% of the time (when factoring in accuracy). But remember that Seed Flare only has 8 PP, unlike Outrage/Earthquake. Basically, Garchomp hits harder than Skymin does.
Stop comparing Garchomp and Skymin and stop with all this petty arguing over tier placement. Skymin WILL be tested and there WILL be a vote.
I believe is is both a combination of Scizor and Skymin, not just Skymin. Heatran happens to counter both perfectly as long as he doesn't switch into a Super Power/Earth Power.
I've never had any trouble with Skymin whatsoever, despite having some success with it.
With Skymin I've managed to scrape some huge comebacks thanks to air slash and seed flare.
Seems that most people cannot use it right. I can't even count the Skymins that were wasted just by trying to switch on my Swampert(trust me guys if your using one, use ice beam the first time you send it out ;) )
In the right hands this little bugger could be a pain to take out, and I can tell that most teams are somehow prepared for it.
With Skymin I've managed to scrape some huge comebacks thanks to air slash and seed flare.
Seems that most people cannot use it right. I can't even count the Skymins that were wasted just by trying to switch on my Swampert(trust me guys if your using one, use ice beam the first time you send it out ;) )
In the right hands this little bugger could be a pain to take out, and I can tell that most teams are somehow prepared for it.
Honchkrow -- Fails to SubSeed version.
Aerodactyl -- You don't keep it in... Just like you don't keep Salamence in Weavile. And it's OU.
Crobat -- We knew that. Established in first page. Can die to Life Orb Seed Flare with SR on field.
Scarfdoom -- Killed by ScarfSkyMin's Earthpower.
Moltres -- Die to Air Slash after a Flinch if switch into Stealth Rock. Ripped apart by SubSeed version.
Entei -- SubSeed Version can Flinch it to death since it's not fast enough. SR deals even more damage.
Doesn't matter. I don't see anyone complaining about this on Salamence or Tyranitar or Lucario.
Please don't go off-topic by comparing it to Garchomp or even getting into Garchomp itself. That isn't relevant. Skymin's tier status is irrelevant as well - it's OU now, and it might change in the future. Please focus on Skymin's performance in OU itself.
Please don't go off-topic by comparing it to Garchomp or even getting into Garchomp itself. That isn't relevant. Skymin's tier status is irrelevant as well - it's OU now, and it might change in the future. Please focus on Skymin's performance in OU itself.
Actually, HP Ice owns Honchkrow (CB Sucker Punch doesn't OHKO), Scarfed Houndoom dies to Earthpower, Moltres and Entei can die after 1 Air Slash flinch (57% chance of occuring). This is all viable on a Choice or LO set. Even Timid Scarfheatran risks coming in on a Skymin using Earthpower or Sub (then Earthpower which could replace Air Slash on the subseeder for surprise).
Skymin has promoted much Registeel usage, because he is agruably the best counter. A drastic change on the metagame. I'll admit Skymin has more counters than Yache Garchomp, but the latter is countered by Scarf Suicune and Vaporeon, who were never seen, Skymin's counters have seen much more usage than Chomp's. This suggests that Skymin's deadliness has a stronger need for a guaranteed counter.
Whilst that is somewhat true, I believe it is more to do with the fact that Skymin actually HAS counters. Say what you want but the fact remains that Yache Garchomp simply did not have a counter in OU. I would hardly count scarfed bulky Waters that ignore the presence of Stealth Rock and Sandstorm as viable counters. What the vast majority of teams did have was a 'method' of dealing with it, which normally involved 2-3 Pokemon with one being sacrificed to survive a +2 Attack and remove Yache, then one or two faster Pokes that could OHKO. It is not hard to see how such a situation was unhealthy for the metagame.
Manaphy has counters. There's actually a quite handful of Pokemon that can take Manaphy. It's stats is the same as Jirachi/Celebi. Is Manaphy OU? No. It doesn't really have much to do about what has COUNTERS, but more so towards does it overcentralize or overpower, such as Shaymin-S. Not meaning to get off topic to Garchomp, but it acts as a quite good conparison to SkyMin. Once SkyMin is in, it can use Substitute and take a hit, drop your counter's SPD and kill it, or you can just switch into a maybe Specs or maybe Yache offensive set and hope for the best. If you don't die to the switch in, most likely you'll get Flinched to death, other than the very few, such as Crobat. Of course, you can always overcentralize it with Registeel/Regice/Crobat and those gangs.
Uhh, bad comparison seeing as Manaphy's one of the suspects that are going to be tested...
Like Bologo said, Manaphy is a bad comparison since it is a suspect after all. Manaphy was banned more because of RainRest + Tail Glow + Raining 6x Surf, etc.
Shaymin-S isn't as overcentralizing or overpowering as one would think, either. As it has already been mentioned, it has several downfalls which can be picked on. Aside from that, Scizor is becoming more and more used with its Bullet Punch, which checks Skymin. As far as using Timid ScarfTran is concerned, Heatran was becoming more and more prevalent before Shaymin-S was introduced, thanks to the lack of Garchomp to check it. Registeel being used to counter Shaymin-S is not the only reason it is used; it takes other things on pretty well by spreading status, using its wide pool of resistances, etc.
So Shaymin is also a suspect then too. Timid ScarfTran is taken down by ScarfTrio.
Anyways, what set / spread does Registeel work best against SkyMin?
hey guys, I'm too lazy to read through 30 pages atm, but has anyone else noticed how good a lead scarfed skymin is? the air slash flinch helps you to break focus sashes on shit, it just barely outspeeds timid scarfgar with modest, and well, well yea. it just about beast most leads that I've played against. only one he has trouble with is bronzong, who isnt even used anymore pretty much. great stuff.
I don't know why everyone thinks Skymin is so broken/uber, because personally I don't seem to have any trouble taking them down, and almost all of the time I kill it without the use of my own Skymin :D. This is perhaps due to the unique style of my team, but that's really not the point. Also, I find that a sub/seed flare/air slash/earth power @ lefties set works very well. Lefties + Sub allows you to heal off most of the damage from Sub or SR, which synergizes extremely well with Air slash flinch hax and Skymin's immense power. Sub also lets you scout switches and the likes.
Most of the time, I find Skymin gets killed by a Scarfer. Or, he gets revenge killed by Mamoswine or Scizor (the latter doesn't come anywhere close to a OHKO, whilst Mamoswine does not if Skymin holds a Yache Berry (though this is rare)).
Oh, and Skymin is the reason Registeel is so common. Before, I rarely saw any Registeels. Other than that, Registeel has Thunderwave and SR for support purposes, which many other Pokemon can do. He also works as a Dragon counter with Ice Punch, but so do many other pokemon.
Skymin doesn't have a genuine counter, because they can be beaten by prediction, just that such cases are rare and most of the people who use Skymin don't predict some things. Skymin can use Earth Power to OHKO the Scarf Heatran or Metagross switching in, but I rarely see this happen. But yes, she has more counters than Chomp. But counters alone should not determine Skymin's rankings.
Manaphy with Surf, Tail Glow, Rest, Rain Dance is counterable by strong water resists e.g. Vaporeon, Lapras, Quagsire, Kingdra, Celebi. Many still counter him with Ice Beam or Grass Knot instead of one of those moves. BUT as with Manaphy's position in the uber tier, it is not just a matter of countering the pokemon, but its overall power and its effect on the metagame. Skymin's power is debatable for the uber tier but it is definitely high. And Skymin has had a massive effect on the metagame.