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Election 2008, United States

Who would you vote for if the presidential race is held now?

  • Barack Obama

    Votes: 415 72.4%
  • John McCain

    Votes: 130 22.7%
  • Other (Please specify)

    Votes: 28 4.9%

  • Total voters
    573
Jimmy Carter was a marvelous president and, once again, a great diplomat. I am ecstatic at the thought of another president that good at diplomacy.

I fear a Palin presidency because she is more overt than even Bush in what terrible manipulations she wants to effect and this is when she is merely running for office; imagine how bad it will be if she were president! The alternate or concurrent possibility that you propose of her allowing herself to be a parrot more than even Bush is also terrifying because it indicates further ruination of this country, its credibility, and our rights.
 
Jimmy Carter may have been a good diplomat, but thats about it, just look at his record and how badly he lost against Reagan lol =/. Certainly isn't a figure we'd want in office today when our economy is a big shithole. Nice guy though and won a nobel prize :)
 
Jimmy Carter may have been a good diplomat, but thats about it, just look at his record and how badly he lost against Reagan lol =/. Certainly isn't a figure we'd want in office today when our economy is a big shithole. Nice guy though and won a nobel prize :)

Jimmy Carter was too honest to be president.
 
As for Palin's inability to run the Presidency? That's a pretty laughable notion coming from Barack Obama supporters. Palin has years of executive experience whereas Barack's only stint in an executive role was funneling 50 million to Afrocentric education. The one time he had executive authority he spent it on giving kickbacks to his radical friends.

There is no amount of experience that can adequately prepare one to be President. Governing (and abusing executive power in) the state with the lowest population density in the United States certainly does not. My concern with Palin is not so much her experience as her mind boggling ignorance and ineptitude.

As a result, 50 million dollars were wasted on the likes of Rashid Khalidi's anti-American screed and performance in Chicago Schools, the ostensible goal of the Annenburg Challenge, had no measurable increase in performance.

It takes a rather repressive society to consider "anti-country" as an acceptable insult. It is comparable to "anti-Sovetism" in the USSR. Please spare me your unquestioning "patriotism" and support for oppressive Zionism.

Palin has actually had to do more than vote "present." Hell, she's had to do more than just VOTE. That's what Senators do: they VOTE.

Yes, they draft and vote on legislation that affects the nation and the world. What is your point?

Palin is unqualified? Last I checked, she is objectively superior to Obama and she will be "one heartbeat away" anyway. McCain will be the one choosing all the Cabinet posts unless he happens to die before January 21st.

In what way is she "objectively superior to Obama"? Certainly not in either intelligence or high school level civics knowledge.

Given Obama's tendency to hang out with thugs and vandals, I wouldn't trust him to protect anything except his own hide. I'll take an Alaskan Moose Hunter/Mother of Five over a Chicago radical leftist any day.

What "thugs and vandals"? Bill Ayers, who fomented you into frenzy, but whose "connection" with Obama was spurious at best? What about Palin's own connections with the Alaskan Independence Party? Apparently wishing to secede from the Union is not "anti-American" in your warped dreamscape.

As to Obama's fundraising? Like most things, Obama did it through fraud. He disabled the Adress Verification Service on his donation page. You can literally put in ANY information with your Credit Card Number and it will be accepted. Same with Obama's friends in ACORN, who have committed vote fraud in over a dozen states. Why just today a bunch of New York Obama college students got prevented from influencing the Ohio election.

Disabling AVS is not uncommon and is in no way indicative of widespread "fraud". Statistically, in a donor pool as large as his, some fraud will inevitably occur, but it is quite a leap to say that large-scale fraud is being actively encouraged by Obama's campaign. Also, he is not "friends" with ACORN. Yes, some of their workers out of indolence committed registration fraud to meet quotas. I fail to see how this reflects upon Senator Obama or his campaign.

Obama hangs out with fraudsters, racists, and unrepentant terrorists. He actively sought out the most fringe radical elements of Chicago for alliances, as he explains in his memoir "Dreams of My Father." This is a man who has no scruples with partnering with the lowest scumbags America has ever allowed to exist. Obama is all about Obama's own power. He is a dangerous megalomaniac with no moral compass.

I doubt you can get any lower than the "scumbags" of the current Administration. They are the ones with no moral compass, concerned solely with expanding their own power and wealth through whatever means necessary, regardless of the lives it costs.

The only "Change" Obama has ever wrought is to make Chicago a more corrupt, dangerous place than it already was. He is merely an enabler for his Marxist masters. Obama is a man so self-absorbed and arrogant that at the age of 47, his only accomplishment is writing two memoirs on his favorite topic: Himself.

Who are his "Marxist masters", pray tell? You consistently make this assertion but seem to completely lack any notion of what Marxism actually encompasses. According to your memoir logic, Benjamin Franklin, Frederick Douglas, Mahatma Gandhi, C.S. Lewis, and your own dear Ronald Reagan, among a multitude of others, were all narcissists to the extreme, having composed autobiographies. And becoming the first ever African-American nominated by a major party for President is no small feat--or am I being racist by mentioning it?

Obama has predicated his entire campaign on accusing his opponents of being racist. That was what was behind his several allusions. Allusions that started with "they're going to try and scare you" followed by "not being like "those other presidents on the dollar bills" and "you know he has a funny name" and "did I mention he was black?" Nevermind Rev. Wright IS racist, and was who I was alluding to.

Predicated his entire campaign on race? Perhaps "they're going to try and scare you" refered to the absurd allegations upon which McCain HAS "predicated his entire campaign", and which you seem perfectly willing to continuously parrot? Or maybe that was simply because he IS black and therefore ISN'T like "those other presidents"? Or maybe it was because his background is not typical of a President? And maybe, just maybe, the "funny name" comment is in response to the multitude of ignorant bigots who think he is a Muslim, and therefore a terrorist? Racism does still exist in the United States, and is a prohibitive factor to some in voting for Obama.

In fact, Barack Hussein Obama changed his legal name from Barry Soetero. If anyone is to fault for the "funny name," it is Barack himself. McCain has been insanely hawkish in keeping his campaign and even random people at his town hall meetings in line.

His birth certificate has the name "Barack Hussein Obama II", so I am not sure where this comes from. McCain has hardly been "hawkish" in keeping people "in line", considering the amount of crazed, unimportant tabloid insults leveled at Obama by himself and his surrogates. Nor has his running mate. Obama, on the other hand, refused to allow his supporters even to boo McCain, telling them "we just need to vote". McCain certainly cannot do the same, since his entire campaign has devolved to debasing Obama at any chance, no matter how absurd the allegation.

But why waste my precious time responding to you? Because you're ignorant. You're the kind of ignorant fool Democrats use to elect themselves time and time again. Your only arguments are to accuse people of racism and randomly call candidates whose policies you simply don't like intellectually inferior

But why waste my precious time responding to you? Because you're ignorant. You're the kind of ignorant fool Republicans used to elect Bush for a second term. Your only arguments are to accuse people of socialism and randomly call candidates whose policies you simply don't like anti-American.

You have no understanding of American history, the Founding Fathers, or even modern reality. America is a religious nation guided by the rule of equally applied secular laws. Thus why our nation's founding principles revolve around inalienable rights guaranteed by an authority above every worldly government.

I fail to see why you find it necessary to inject religion where it does not belong. You seem to be the one with a problem understanding American's history--all of it, that is, not just the pleasant bits. I will give you credit for one thing: you seem to understand history better than Sarah Palin. Hell, maybe you even understand the Constitutional role of Vice President, something with which she seems blissfully ignorant.

It will be easy to test you on whether you understand this matter with a single question: Where do our rights come from?

Our rights come from reason, social agreement, and years of struggle; they do not stem from a deity, if that is what you are implying.

Now granted, I may have called Obama an idiot once or twice in a passion, but I don't generally think him so. I believe the last time I called him such I was comparing his competence to a theoretical anti-Christ, who by definition would probably not be caught saying or doing stupid things at all.

I suppose we can safely say that Sarah Palin is not your fictional Antichrist. And, to avoid partisanship, Biden is ruled out as well.
 
Thank you Luduan. You did what we all couldn't put ourselves through.

@ Mr. Goodbar: I probably should have said Gay Rights rather than Gay Marriage as I know that all people in politics are scared of doing anything that might annoy the Christian community. But comparing the Democratic campaign to the Republican, if you ask Palin up front (maybe away from the video cameras), she would tell you that the homosexuals "choose" the sinful path against God. I don't really want that kind of opinion in a President or even VP.
 
Timeline:

-Dumb fat bitch becomes a College Republican
-Dumb fat bitch pretends she's from Texas A&M, is actually from Blinn College.
-Dumb fat bitch supports Ron Paul
-Dumb fat bitch goes to Pennsylvania
-Dumb fat bitch claims to be mugged and branded
-McCain official claims a black man was going to teach her a lesson because he saw a bumper sticker on her car.
-Media is outraged!
-Police see through her lies.
-Dumb fat bitch is exposed and sinks McCain campaign
 
As far as I'm concerned, I can't believe that this is an election for the top position, in the greatest country on earth, out of 300,000,000 people and these two nimrods are the best options we have.

Barack Obama is undeniably radical, with a 100% liberal voting record. He is largely inexperienced and has a shady past. His economic experience is nearly none, and he supports socialized medicine.

John McCain is a septuagenarian who has absolutely strangled the life force out of his campaign, is much more of a Washington insider than he claims to be, and has a platform eerily similar to his opponent for one who claims to be on the opposite side of the ideological fence.

I'd feel safer with Bush again than with either Obama or McCain. I should not feel this way. He made a lot of mistakes, but most of what's gone wrong hasn't been his fault. Regardless, the fact that there doesn't seem to be a better option disturbs me.

My hope is that America will finally say enough is enough, and take some of those powers the Presidency has gotten recently and bring them back to the people. We as a nation are sick and tired of where we are and we need to weaken the presidency and strengthen the people.

How about applying recalls and propositions to the Federal Government for a start?
 
Our rights come from reason, social agreement, and years of struggle; they do not stem from a deity, if that is what you are implying.

Wrong. Our rights are inalienable. For reference it says so in The Declaration of Independence, the very first founding document. The one we sent to King George III to tell him to piss off.

"We are endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

The entire purpose of the Constitution was to restrict government's ability to overpower individuals. Rights are inalienable because no committee of human beings (read: government) has the right to take them away.

You fail civics 101. Congratulations.

There is no amount of experience that can adequately prepare one to be President. Governing (and abusing executive power in) the state with the lowest population density in the United States certainly does not. My concern with Palin is not so much her experience as her mind boggling ignorance and ineptitude.

The basis for "ignorance" according to the left is not supporting a bullet list of liberal beliefs and programs. She has an 80% approval rating, so while I'm sure you consider yourselves smarter than most Alaskans, I imagine they can tell whether their governor is ignorant or inept better than you can.

Here is a simple challenge to all the anti-Palin cabal: Prove Sarah Palin is ignorant and inept.

I shall offer my counterarguments because the ones most people use are so trite and predictable you can see them coming:

The "Bush Doctrine" has changed three times, and she asked Charlie Gibson which incarnation he was referring to. Furthermore, the Bush Doctrine is not some liberal caricature like "lie us into war for oil."

Opposition to abortion and same-sex marriage are not indications of ignorance. They are indications of disagreement with your preferred policies. Do not confuse the two.

Her position on creationism is that if it comes up in class it should be discussed. She has never advocated it to be part of a core curriculum.

No books have ever been banned by Sarah Palin, and the Wasilla Librarian is a political appointee who serves at the discretion of the mayor. The call for a resignation before assuming office is standard procedure.

It takes a rather repressive society to consider "anti-country" as an acceptable insult. It is comparable to "anti-Sovetism" in the USSR. Please spare me your unquestioning "patriotism" and support for oppressive Zionism.

I take it you didn't read the link to Stanley Kurtz's piece. I linked it because it explains in greater detail exactly who the 50 million went to and what they considered education. That you blame the Jews is just icing on the cake.


Yes, they draft and vote on legislation that affects the nation and the world. What is your point?

True, that is what Senators do. Except not a single piece of legislation was drafted by Barack Obama. More importantly, the Senate, like the ivory tower, is a theorycraft sphere where the effects of what people pass are never felt.

In what way is she "objectively superior to Obama"? Certainly not in either intelligence or high school level civics knowledge.

Executive experience.

Speaking of high school level civics knowledge, Biden couldn't place VP in Article II.

As to her intelligence or lack their of, given the ease of which you blame Zionism, I'd say you aren't qualified to judge.

What "thugs and vandals"? Bill Ayers, who fomented you into frenzy, but whose "connection" with Obama was spurious at best? What about Palin's own connections with the Alaskan Independence Party? Apparently wishing to secede from the Union is not "anti-American" in your warped dreamscape.

Once again Luduan, your lack of study shows. Sarah Palin was never part of the AIP.

As to Ayers, unless your definition of spurious is: served with on two boards, collaborated with to spend 50 million dollars on Afrocentric education, and started your political career in his living room, you've no ground to stand on.

RE thugs and vandals: Tony Rezko, Obama's real estate Agent and political bundler, not serving jail time over 16 charges of corruption.

ACORN, currently under FBI investigation nationally for voter registration fraud, had a Chicago branch trained by Obama. Their activities outside of vote fraud include intimidation campaigns for companies that don't "do enough" for the community.


Disabling AVS is not uncommon and is in no way indicative of widespread "fraud". Statistically, in a donor pool as large as his, some fraud will inevitably occur, but it is quite a leap to say that large-scale fraud is being actively encouraged by Obama's campaign. Also, he is not "friends" with ACORN. Yes, some of their workers out of indolence committed registration fraud to meet quotas. I fail to see how this reflects upon Senator Obama or his campaign.

AVS comes installed and operational STANDARD. It is there to make sure people's name and address match up with their credit card. You have to actively disable it. Now, you may not see why Address Verification is important to stop fraud, but for those of us who don't deign ourselves smart enough to ascertain the intelligence of others, it is because the integrity of elections is central to the democratic process. There is a campaign contributions limit that has a fixed dollar amount. If you don't have to verify your information, you can easily go over that limit simply by giving fake information.

Quoth Pattrick Ruffini:
http://www.thenextright.com/patrick-ruffini/exclusive-barackobamacoms-lax-security-opens-door-to-online-donor-fraud

The issue centers around the Address Verification Service (or AVS) that credit card processors use to sniff out phony transactions. I was able to contribute money using an address other than the one on file with my bank account (I used an address I control, just not the one on my account), showing that the Obama campaign deliberately disabled AVS for its online donors.

AVS is generally the first line of defense against credit card fraud online. AVS ensures that not only is your credit card number accurate, but the street address you've submitted with a transaction matches the one on file with your bank.

[...]

The end result? "Donors" like "Doodad Pro" can submit tons of donations totaling well above the $2,300 limit using different bogus addresses (this does clarify how donations from "Palestine", or PA, got through). And the campaign has no way to reliably de-dupe these donations, besides looking at the last four digits of the credit card number, which with 3.1 million donors is an identifier that could be shared by literally hundreds of donors, and is not as easy to eyeball like a common name or address would be. The ability to contribute with a false address, when the technology to prevent it not only exists but comes standard, is a green light for fraud.

Who are his "Marxist masters", pray tell? You consistently make this assertion but seem to completely lack any notion of what Marxism actually encompasses. According to your memoir logic, Benjamin Franklin, Frederick Douglas, Mahatma Gandhi, C.S. Lewis, and your own dear Ronald Reagan, among a multitude of others, were all narcissists to the extreme, having composed autobiographies. And becoming the first ever African-American nominated by a major party for President is no small feat--or am I being racist by mentioning it?

Your reading comprehension fails once again Luduan. All of the people you mentioned had actual accomplishments, and additionally only wrote their memoirs AFTER they had lived the majority of their life. What separates Obama from say, Mahatma Ghandi is that Ghandi actually mattered. He actually did something worth writing about.

Marxism is all about class warfare and redistribution of wealth. The evil bourgeois vs. the righteous proletariat, finally giving the worker's power over the means of production. That's Marxism in theory. Marxism in practice is a pile of skulls under an autocrat.

Predicated his entire campaign on race? Perhaps "they're going to try and scare you" refered to the absurd allegations upon which McCain HAS "predicated his entire campaign", and which you seem perfectly willing to continuously parrot?

Truth is the ultimate defense Luduan. Barack Hussein Obama has associated with Wright, Ayers, Rezko, ACORN etc. Barack Hussein Obama is a legal name Barack elected to change to of his own volition. In his own memoir Barack Hussein Obama points out he actively sought politically active black students, Marxist professors, et al. A leopard does not change its spots.

Or maybe that was simply because he IS black and therefore ISN'T like "those other presidents"? Or maybe it was because his background is not typical of a President? And maybe, just maybe, the "funny name" comment is in response to the multitude of ignorant bigots who think he is a Muslim, and therefore a terrorist? Racism does still exist in the United States, and is a prohibitive factor to some in voting for Obama.

Yes, usually Presidents don't launch their political careers in say, the home of a Timothy McVeigh equivalent. And usually they don't train and enable vote fraud outfits with the curriculum of Saul Alinksy's "Rules for Radicals." Barack is Muslim is a ridiculous charge, but one the McCain campaign has never made and constantly corrects. McCain fails to note that Barack's actual religion, the one of his pastor of two decades, is Black Liberation Theology, a healthy mix of Socialism and Afrocentrism.

His birth certificate has the name "Barack Hussein Obama II", so I am not sure where this comes from. McCain has hardly been "hawkish" in keeping people "in line", considering the amount of crazed, unimportant tabloid insults leveled at Obama by himself and his surrogates. Nor has his running mate. Obama, on the other hand, refused to allow his supporters even to boo McCain, telling them "we just need to vote". McCain certainly cannot do the same, since his entire campaign has devolved to debasing Obama at any chance, no matter how absurd the allegation.

You must live in fantasy land. Obama had people shut down (full audio, Obots come in at about 52:00) Stanley Kurtz when he tried to talk about his reports from the Annenburg Foundation. Obama urged his supporters to "get in their face." Seems some of them took him at his word.

But why waste my precious time responding to you? Because you're ignorant. You're the kind of ignorant fool Republicans used to elect Bush for a second term. Your only arguments are to accuse people of socialism and randomly call candidates whose policies you simply don't like anti-American.

Funny, I don't recall accusing anyone but Barack Obama of socialism. Your reading comprehension is really coming along Luduan. Soon you may be able to figure out that I don't write anything without being able to back it up extensively. I study both candidates as best I can, and then give my honest assessment. If "ignorance" is now defined as "doing your homework on the man who might run your nation for the next 4-8 years," then I suppose that yes, I'm ignorant.

I fail to see why you find it necessary to inject religion where it does not belong. You seem to be the one with a problem understanding American's history--all of it, that is, not just the pleasant bits. I will give you credit for one thing: you seem to understand history better than Sarah Palin. Hell, maybe you even understand the Constitutional role of Vice President, something with which she seems blissfully ignorant.

It was Joe Biden that got Article II wrong at the VP debate. I will also pit my knowledge of American History against yours any time. From the sounds of it, you get your history from leftist caricatures whose sole purpose for writing anything is to advance leftist radicalism, no matter how many lies they must write to do it. I can tell by your random shout out to Zionism.

I suppose we can safely say that Sarah Palin is not your fictional Antichrist. And, to avoid partisanship, Biden is ruled out as well.

As you would recall with only the smallest of verification, I did not call Obama the Anti-Christ either. Although the blanket support for partial birth abortion and opposition to even the most basic (and popular) restrictions on it combined with his love for funneling taxpayer dollars to people who declared war on the United States (old Weather Underground activists), I'm not too enthused about "change you can believe in," as you can imagine.
 
Just posting to say Obama is NOT a "radical leftist".
If you want to know what radical leftists look like, heck, you should come to Europe.
 
In America, he is a radical leftist. If elected he will be the furthest left president we've ever had, and I don't give a damn if they're further left in Europe. I don't want someone that endorses European style socialism (don't try to refute this, no matter what bullshit spews out of his mouth this is what he supports, look at his record) leading this country.

If I wanted socialism like that I could move to a dozen European countries, hell if I wanted to stay close to family I could drive two and a half hours north and move to Canada if I wanted that.
 
Can we try to keep this about the upcoming election rather than "you ignorant leftist you don't know jack squat about our country other than the lies you have been fed by radical leftists" etc. (not to say that Deck Knight is the only one that's talking like that).

In what way is she "objectively superior to Obama"?
Executive experience.

That would be true... if there was a conclusive correlation between experience and success as president. Obviously, experience has to be taken into account, but I don't think two years as governor of Alaska makes her "objectively superior". Perhaps "objectively more qualified" or "objectively more experienced", but those don't mean the same as "objectively superior".

The basis for "ignorance" according to the left is not supporting a bullet list of liberal beliefs and programs.

This is coming from a person who called all democrats ignorant naive gullible pawns used to elect other democrats into office. I'd say the pot is calling the kettle black.
 
I couldn't stand Palin being that close to presidency, seeing how she trips over herself all the time.

Obama '08
DSCF1472.jpg
 
As far as I'm concerned, I can't believe that this is an election for the top position, in the greatest country on earth, out of 300,000,000 people and these two nimrods are the best options we have.

Barack Obama is undeniably radical, with a 100% liberal voting record. He is largely inexperienced and has a shady past. His economic experience is nearly none, and he supports socialized medicine.

John McCain is a septuagenarian who has absolutely strangled the life force out of his campaign, is much more of a Washington insider than he claims to be, and has a platform eerily similar to his opponent for one who claims to be on the opposite side of the ideological fence.

I'd feel safer with Bush again than with either Obama or McCain. I should not feel this way. He made a lot of mistakes, but most of what's gone wrong hasn't been his fault. Regardless, the fact that there doesn't seem to be a better option disturbs me.

My hope is that America will finally say enough is enough, and take some of those powers the Presidency has gotten recently and bring them back to the people. We as a nation are sick and tired of where we are and we need to weaken the presidency and strengthen the people.

How about applying recalls and propositions to the Federal Government for a start?

How about voting for a third party candidate and effecting some goddamned change in this country?
 
tl;dr

Wrong. Our rights are inalienable. For reference it says so in The Declaration of Independence, the very first founding document. The one we sent to King George III to tell him to piss off.

"We are endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

Quoting a document to prove that rights are inalienable and endowed by a "Creator" is rather preposterous. You would have to prove that such a being actually exists for that to be that case. You would also have to prove with which "rights" he has endowed humanity. If you carefully read the Constitution, you will note that there is not a single reference to a deity. Oh, and apparently these "inalienable rights", among them liberty, did not stop those same wealthy whites from depriving others of their liberty (read: slavery). Blacks had no guaranteed rights until struggle and social action conferred upon them freedom.

“We need an American history that sees protections for civil liberties not as a timeless feature of our 'civilization' but as a recent and fragile achievement resulting from many decades of historical struggle.” - Eric Foner

The entire purpose of the Constitution was to restrict government's ability to overpower individuals. Rights are inalienable because no committee of human beings (read: government) has the right to take them away.

Except that governments readily take away certain rights, during times of war, for example. Rights are defined by cultural relativism, the zeitgeist, struggle, and law. (Though some laws can be considered contrary to what many believe are rights. An example are laws prohibiting gay marriage, which many view as their “right”. Another would be legalized abortion, which some view as robbing the “unborn” of their “right to life”.)

You fail civics 101. Congratulations.

You failed philosophy 101. Congratulations.

The basis for "ignorance" according to the left is not supporting a bullet list of liberal beliefs and programs. She has an 80% approval rating, so while I'm sure you consider yourselves smarter than most Alaskans, I imagine they can tell whether their governor is ignorant or inept better than you can.

I said nothing about her ability to govern Alaska or her popularity. I simply doubt her ability to be Vice President. She does not know what the job entails, for starters, and cannot answer a simple interview question conducted by a medium other than Faux News without falling flat on her face. Citing proximity to Russia as foreign policy experience and being unable to identify a single SCOTUS decision with which she disagrees—despite having complained recently about Exxon v. Baker—does not exactly inspire confidence. And I am not alone in thinking her unqualified: Colin Powell, Christopher Hitchens, George Will, Chuck Hegel, David Brooks, Joe Lieberman, et al. have expressed doubts about her readiness. This is from the American right, not the left.

Here is a simple challenge to all the anti-Palin cabal: Prove Sarah Palin is ignorant and inept.

Luckily, you saved me the time by providing several examples below.

I shall offer my counterarguments because the ones most people use are so trite and predictable you can see them coming:

The "Bush Doctrine" has changed three times, and she asked Charlie Gibson which incarnation he was referring to. Furthermore, the Bush Doctrine is not some liberal caricature like "lie us into war for oil."

This would be fine, except that she asked Gibson if he was referring to Bush's "worldview", which has little to do with the Bush Doctrine. Even if she were asking to which "incarnation" he was referring, she could have simply provided one of them in response and come away looking fine. Rather, she failed to answer at all.

Opposition to abortion and same-sex marriage are not indications of ignorance. They are indications of disagreement with your preferred policies. Do not confuse the two.

I agree that abortion, at least, could be a legitimate ethical debate. Same-sex marriage is not, however, but I shall leave it at that. This has little to do with her intelligence.

Her position on creationism is that if it comes up in class it should be discussed. She has never advocated it to be part of a core curriculum.

It isn't creationism solely that makes her ignorance—it is her anti-science stance in general. Yesterday, she announced how senseless it is to fund study of fruit flies, while calling for more to be done for autism patients. Yet, she doesn't seem to realize that studying fruit flies provides valuable insight into the genetic factors of autism.

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/10/24/palin-fruit-flies/

No books have ever been banned by Sarah Palin, and the Wasilla Librarian is a political appointee who serves at the discretion of the mayor. The call for a resignation before assuming office is standard procedure.

You are correct; she did not have books banned.

I take it you didn't read the link to Stanley Kurtz's piece. I linked it because it explains in greater detail exactly who the 50 million went to and what they considered education. That you blame the Jews is just icing on the cake.

I admit that I only skimmed the article as I was in a hurry and am familiar with Kurtz's bilge. Having read it further, I am even more confused as to what the point is, and how it has anything to do with Obama's campaign. I don't "blame the Jews" for anything; apparently you are ignorant of who Rashid Khalidi is. I was assuming that you consider him "anti-American" for his opinions concerning the US, Israel, and the Palestinians; if I am wrong, then I apologize. Moreover, Zionism is not synonymous with Judaism.

True, that is what Senators do. Except not a single piece of legislation was drafted by Barack Obama. More importantly, the Senate, like the ivory tower, is a theorycraft sphere where the effects of what people pass are never felt.

Last I checked, not drafting legislation does not disqualify you from being President. Nor does lacking “executive experience”—Madison, Adams, and Lincoln had none.

A good article explaining why this whole conversation about experience is absurd:
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1717926-2,00.html

Speaking of high school level civics knowledge, Biden couldn't place VP in Article II.

I don't recall my defending Biden; he isn't that great either. But at least he knows what the office actually entails, unlike Palin, who has on numerous occasions vastly overstated the (nearly non-existent) powers of the Vice President.

As to her intelligence or lack their of, given the ease of which you blame Zionism, I'd say you aren't qualified to judge.

Perhaps I should have clarified my point about Zionism better, but you are still being ridiculous here.

Once again Luduan, your lack of study shows. Sarah Palin was never part of the AIP.

Your lack of reading shows. I never said she was a member of the AIP; I said she was “connected” to it. Or does her husband's membership not count as a legitimate connection?

As to Ayers, unless your definition of spurious is: served with on two boards, collaborated with to spend 50 million dollars on Afrocentric education, and started your political career in his living room, you've no ground to stand on.

First, serving on a charity board is a tenuous connection at best. These boards do not meet often, and serving on a charity board with someone is hardly an endorsement of that individual's political ideals. A former Reagan ambassador funded the Annenberg Challenge. Is he a radical communist terrorist as well? Second, he did not begin his political campaign in Ayers's living room.

Regarding the Annenberg Challenge:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/790/

RE thugs and vandals: Tony Rezko, Obama's real estate Agent and political bundler, not serving jail time over 16 charges of corruption.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jun/19/obamas-rezko-connection/

ACORN, currently under FBI investigation nationally for voter registration fraud, had a Chicago branch trained by Obama. Their activities outside of vote fraud include intimidation campaigns for companies that don't "do enough" for the community.

I assume you are talking about Project Vote:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/797/

AVS comes installed and operational STANDARD. It is there to make sure people's name and address match up with their credit card. You have to actively disable it. Now, you may not see why Address Verification is important to stop fraud, but for those of us who don't deign ourselves smart enough to ascertain the intelligence of others, it is because the integrity of elections is central to the democratic process. There is a campaign contributions limit that has a fixed dollar amount. If you don't have to verify your information, you can easily go over that limit simply by giving fake information.

It is also not uncommon to turn off AVS, as I have said. Anyone donating fraudulently risks prosecution by the Feds. Look how quickly they caught the kid who hacked Palin's email; do you honestly believe that fraudulent donations are that rampant and that easy to pull off? Or maybe you are just unwilling to believe that people agree with Obama and legitimately donate to his campaign?


Some of the posted comments might help you understand why this is not such a big deal.

Your reading comprehension fails once again Luduan. All of the people you mentioned had actual accomplishments, and additionally only wrote their memoirs AFTER they had lived the majority of their life. What separates Obama from say, Mahatma Ghandi is that Ghandi actually mattered. He actually did something worth writing about.

And what about the thousands of other people who have written autobiographies or memoirs? Hell, what about those who keep diaries? No one is forcing you to buy any of Obama's books. Writing about your personal experiences is an extremely old practice and is in no way indicative of “arrogance”.

Marxism is all about class warfare and redistribution of wealth. The evil bourgeois vs. the righteous proletariat, finally giving the worker's power over the means of production. That's Marxism in theory. Marxism in practice is a pile of skulls under an autocrat.

Kindly explain what is so sinister about workers' control over the means of production. Also, please explain exactly how that fits in with any of Obama's proposals. You are correct, Marxism in practice has not been achieved, because a “dictatorship of the proletariat” is likely to end in a totalitarian rule. That is why I am not a Marxist—something I have in common with Senator Obama.

Truth is the ultimate defense Luduan.

Yes, and truth defends Obama from your mudslinging.

Barack Hussein Obama has associated with Wright, Ayers, Rezko, ACORN etc.

All of which have been thoroughly debunked and are tangential to the extreme.

Barack Hussein Obama is a legal name Barack elected to change to of his own volition.

And your evidence of this is what, exactly?

In his own memoir Barack Hussein Obama points out he actively sought politically active black students, Marxist professors, et al. A leopard does not change its spots.

Having not read his memoir, I can't comment on this. I do, however, wonder why you find it disturbing that he sought out politically active blacks.

Yes, usually Presidents don't launch their political careers in say, the home of a Timothy McVeigh equivalent. And usually they don't train and enable vote fraud outfits with the curriculum of Saul Alinksy's "Rules for Radicals." Barack is Muslim is a ridiculous charge, but one the McCain campaign has never made and constantly corrects. McCain fails to note that Barack's actual religion, the one of his pastor of two decades, is Black Liberation Theology, a healthy mix of Socialism and Afrocentrism.

Obama did not launch his political career in Bill Ayers's home.

I find all religion ridiculous, so I see little difference between Obama's beliefs and, say, the laying on of hands to protect Palin from witchcraft. Or the belief that the Iraq War was divinely sanctioned.

Funny, I don't recall accusing anyone but Barack Obama of socialism. Your reading comprehension is really coming along Luduan. Soon you may be able to figure out that I don't write anything without being able to back it up extensively. I study both candidates as best I can, and then give my honest assessment. If "ignorance" is now defined as "doing your homework on the man who might run your nation for the next 4-8 years," then I suppose that yes, I'm ignorant.

You are ignorant because you consistently cite discredited and patently false smears, which have little to do with any legitimate issue.

It was Joe Biden that got Article II wrong at the VP debate. I will also pit my knowledge of American History against yours any time. From the sounds of it, you get your history from leftist caricatures whose sole purpose for writing anything is to advance leftist radicalism, no matter how many lies they must write to do it. I can tell by your random shout out to Zionism.

And I do not particularly care for Joe Biden either. You seem to think that I am a surrogate for the Democratic Party; I am not. I merely believe the constant rhetoric about “terrorism” and “anti-Americanism” distracts from the real issues that this Presidential campaign should be about.

Oh, and those “leftist caricatures” must include a wide array of the most respected historians in the world, then. “One is astonished in the study of history,” wrote Du Bois, “at the recurrence of the idea that evil must be forgotten, distorted, skimmed over. . . . The difficulty, of course, with this philosophy is that history loses its value as an incentive and an example; it paints perfect men and noble nations, but it does not tell the truth.” I look at all history, especially the various indiscretions and unpleasantries of my own nation's, rather than gloss over them. Historical revisionism is not historical denialism, nor does it necessarily imply telling “lies” or misinterpreting evidence. Do some individuals lie to advance a particular position? Of course they do. But I would like for you to point out a single time when I have lied about a historical fact to advance a particular agenda.

Yes, I view history from a particular perspective, but in the words of Karl Popper: “It follows that each generation has a right to look upon and re-interpret history in its own way. . . . After all, we study history because we are interested in it, and perhaps because we wish to learn something about our problems. But history can serve neither of these two purpose if, under the influence of an inapplicable idea of objectivity, we hesitate to present historical problems from our point of view. And we should not think that our point of view, if consciously and critically applied to the problem, will be inferior to that of a writer who naïvely believes . . . that he has reached a level of objectivity permitting him to present 'the events of the past as they actually did happen.'”

As you would recall with only the smallest of verification, I did not call Obama the Anti-Christ either. Although the blanket support for partial birth abortion and opposition to even the most basic (and popular) restrictions on it combined with his love for funneling taxpayer dollars to people who declared war on the United States (old Weather Underground activists), I'm not too enthused about "change you can believe in," as you can imagine.

When did I claim that you called Obama the Anti-Christ? I merely mentioned Palin and Biden in response to your statement that the Anti-Christ would not make stupid comments. It was a joke.

And when did Obama “funnel taxpayer dollars” to Weather Underground activists?

By the way, Al Qaeda supporters are backing John McCain. I can hardly imagine your jubilation if they had expressed desire for an Obama victory.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article4989853.ece
 
posting to say that i have a new favourite user!

thank you for saying everything i wish i was knowledgeable enough to say
 
DM, how will voting for a third party candidate effect change? I think that Ross Perot showed that even the most popular third party candidate ever will never do more than take away votes (apparently mostly from Republicans though, so what am I complaining about ;X).

Just to reemphasize Bane's point (Luduan's), rights do not come from the Declaration of Independence, John Locke's nor Montesquieu's writings, nor the Constitution - according to these documents they come by the people for the people. The documents and writings are just a written format toward this concept that try to outline what these rights are. Any inalieable right comes from the concept of people thinking it is inalieable and not any writing nor any god.
 
DM, how will voting for a third party candidate effect change? I think that Ross Perot showed that even the most popular third party candidate ever will never do more than take away votes (apparently mostly from Republicans though, so what am I complaining about ;X).

Just to reemphasize Bane's point (Luduan's), rights do not come from the Declaration of Independence, John Locke's nor Montesquieu's writings, nor the Constitution - according to these documents they come by the people for the people. The documents and writings are just a written format toward this concept that try to outline what these rights are. Any inalieable right comes from the concept of people thinking it is inalieable and not any writing nor any god.

There was a time when the Republicans were a third party.

If there should ever come a time when the two main parties of government fail to address the wishes of the people, a third party serves as a means for the people to be heard. Such was the role of the Populists back in the 19th century.
What does it really mean for a third party to 'take away votes?" If the members of the third party honestly believed that either of the main party candidates would do something to benefit them, then they would vote for them.
Likewise, the person who votes for one of the main party candidates over a third party candidate they prefer is actually doing himself a disservice. Not only is he putting someone into power whose policies he does not support, he is hiding the failure of the government to service his needs.
Yeah, so maybe a different main party would have won if the third party candidates had not been available as alternatives. Would the people who would have voted for that third party candidate feel any better about it? Probably not.

With the inalienable rights portion of the Declaration of Independence, while the Declaration is not strictly a legally binding document, it provides an idea of the intent of the framers of the Constitution in interpreting law. While there are no such things as inalienable rights except as they are perceived, they provide an important legal fiction for the purposes of establishing law and policy.
 
Quick responses

Blacks had no guaranteed rights until struggle and social action conferred upon them freedom.

Honestly this is silly; just because those rights are violated doesn't make them less valid or inalienable. I mean, the text does say "ALL MEN" (btw, it's not pollitically correct but "men" was just a catchword for humanity; it was not to imply that women were not human)

“We need an American history that sees protections for civil liberties not as a timeless feature of our 'civilization' but as a recent and fragile achievement resulting from many decades of historical struggle.” - Eric Foner

If rights were NOT inherent, then what is the philosophical rationale for granting them, especially if someone is benefitting from the suppression of them? If rights are not inherent then what in a moral sense keeps me from raping, looting and killing, providing that I have the power to?

Any inalieable right comes from the concept of people thinking it is inalieable and not any writing nor any god.
Except that governments readily take away certain rights, during times of war, for example.

That does not mean they ought to take away rights, or that they have the right to take away rights. Or is violence justified in the name of the State?

If one argues that the government (or any other human entity, whether it is government, society or an individual)has the sole power to grant or take away rights, the regimes of Stalin, Hitler and Mao were not morally objectionable after all - that is the only logical conclusion. They simply declared that rights didn't apply to everyone and so it went.

Same-sex marriage is not, however, but I shall leave it at that.

In the end, it's an issue of semantics. I find that at this point most evangelicals don't really care that much about gay couples, gay people seeing their lovers in the hospital, sharing health benefits, etc.

But marriage is something sacred (or "should be" before you bring up the 50% hetero divorce rate) for a religious person, and part of that religious faith says that homosexual acts are wrong. By granting the term "marriage" , which has at least an implication of sacredness (rather than "civil union", which is 100% secular), you're essentially co-opting the Church and granting something of a religious sanction to something that is against the tenets of Christianity. At least that would be the argument.

At this stage of the game most religious people can accept "civil unions with similar if not identical rights to married people" - but not "same-sex marriage".

(of course the obvious solution is to take marriage out of the province of the State, whether by not providing benefits at all or not performing "marriages" - but simply granting civil unions to everyone - the couple fills out a form, sends it downtown, and then goes off and performs a 100% religious ceremony at the church or other institution of their choice. Of course it's incumbent on the gay couple to find a church that performs same-sex marriages, but that's THEIR problem now - the government only does civil unions.)

With that said, Palin is far from a gay basher - she did not oppose the granting of benefits for gay couples, nor did she infringe on their rights in any way. That marriage amendment thing is silly, but smells more like "politics" than anything.

With that said, as much as I like her personally (trig + special needs advocacy = cool), as much as I think that she can be capable in time, she's not ready now, and while I just don't think she's as absolutely stupid as the interviews suggest, she's definitely ignorant of national/world affairs and you kind of need to know that stuff to be VP.

The abortion clinic thing is...I get the feeling that she thinks there's a large part of the base that thinks it's NOT terrorism and doesn't want to seem like she's "defending abortion doctors".
 
While Luduan is doing a fantastic job all by his lonesome, I would like to point out a slight tangent that constantly crops up and annoys me to no end about the staunch Republican supporters: Referring to Obama as "Barack Hussein Obama".

Anyone who does this is a disgrace. It is pretty much the most juvenile and see-through hate-mongering I have witnessed in this entire election campaign. That people think adding his middle name into their arguments - particularly when talking about his so-called ties to terrorist organisations and his supposed "anti-Americanism" - makes their point more valid is beyond my belief.

Before anyone says "Well, that is his name, I'm allowed to use it!", I'd like to point out that people only rarely - if ever - address McCain as "John Sidney McCain". Why? Because his middle name doesn't matter. Neither does Obama's - unless you're a Republican who likes engaging in cheap scare tactics because every other smear campaign has spectacularly backfired. The intent is clear when people use his middle name in this way, and I'd suggest such people take their petty tactics back to the playground and leave the politics to people who aren't only interested in belittling the other party's candidate.

For reference, I'm Australian, so obviously I won't be voting in this election. I'm also not yet sure which candidate I'd prefer running my country's closest and most powerful ally. However, not having a "side" in this campaign doesn't impede my ability to spot disgraceful smear tactics from a mile away.

-----------------

On another note (and I don't think this has been mentioned here), Sarah Palin doesn't consider people who bomb abortion clinics to be "domestic terrorists".

She was asked whether such people would be considered terrorists, and immediately reverted to the old "well Obama's friend Bill Ayers is definitely a terrorist!" routine. Fortunately, she then realizes she hadn't answered the question, so she continues. Unfortunately, her answer was "Now, others who would want to engage in harming innocent Americans or facilities... I don't know if you're gonna use the word 'terrorist'."

I don't think I'd mind a McCain Presidency, but jesus christ this woman scares the hell out of me.

(here's a link to it, McCain looks like he wants to throttle her haha)
 
Oh my god you can attribute some of Palin's past interview mishaps to possible political unpreparedness or pressure...but that is just ridiculous. The thing that gets me is that it isn't like she would catch a whole lot of flack from constituents and party members if he just pointed out that anyone who intentionally kills Americans on a massive scale is a domestic terrorist...but instead she refuses to say outright that someone who bombs an abortion clinic is a terrorist.

I'm starting to feel like The Comedian in Watchmen...This whole thing has got to be a joke, and I'm just waiting for the punchline...
 
Honestly this is silly; just because those rights are violated doesn't make them less valid or inalienable. I mean, the text does say "ALL MEN" (btw, it's not pollitically correct but "men" was just a catchword for humanity; it was not to imply that women were not human)

You are missing the point I was trying to make: that no rights are guaranteed except by social agreement, after long periods of struggle and debate. I was also pointing out that the founder's (and Deck Knight's) concept of "inalienable rights" was (is) based on theological grounds and therefore has no value if you do not accept the main premise: that a "creator" actually exists; furthermore, that in outlining such "rights", the founders were exceedingly hypocritical, as were subsequent leaders who chose to ignore rather than correct this blatant contradiction. An example of this hypocrisy is Jefferson himself, who consistently denounced slavery and slaveholders, yet owned nearly two hundred of his own slaves.

If rights were NOT inherent, then what is the philosophical rationale for granting them, especially if someone is benefitting from the suppression of them? If rights are not inherent then what in a moral sense keeps me from raping, looting and killing, providing that I have the power to?

Because humans are social animals and such actions harm society as a whole. The rationale is simple sociobiology. You have been raised to believe that raping is immoral, therefore you find it appalling. This could form the basis of an argument for natural (thus, perhaps, "inalienable") rights, contingent on biological rather than theological grounds. Such rights would still, of course, be defined by humanity.

http://www.seop.leeds.ac.uk/entries/altruism-biological/
 
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