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Now batting in the World Series of Pokemon Suspects: Shaymin-S!
- Thread starter Jumpman16
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i think ajc raises an interesting and valid point. the undeniable fact is that if you have the standard metagame without any suspects, you are going to have the metagame that people most feel comfortable with because there is, by definition, not one pokemon there that everyone largely agrees may be better suited for ubers. so when you throw a suspect in there, there is the expected unbalance, and those of us who don't like our metagame altered will be more up in arms about ths change than those who are more willing and able to adapt, regardless of how uber the suspect is.
the thing is that you would think this is supposed to work both ways, in that if something were really not affecting OU that much, like DX-S before dual screen, and our "test" were removing it from standard so there are no suspects. people would play a DX-S (and suspectless) metagame and largely be like "ok, whatever, maybe this meagame is a little easier but DX-S wasn't really gamebreaking so whatever? comparing it to the DX-S metagame (again, no dual screen), this isnt really uber..." and that would be that.
but one, we don't test things that way because we need the actual reagant present in order to see if there is a reaction, and two, DX-S was rare in that there is currently not one suspect that is OU. everything we're testing is uber, and will fall into the same pitfall as wobbuffet in that "hey what the hell did you do to my metagame, this is different, i dont like different, so i'm voting this uber". there just isn't that much passion to whore the ladder to keep things the way they are compared to banning something, as stated. this could all be avoided if we had a great definition of uber in the first place, since we have always tried to separate "different" in the "metagame shift" sense from "uber", but whatever.
we will probably be talking about this very soon in pr or something
the thing is that you would think this is supposed to work both ways, in that if something were really not affecting OU that much, like DX-S before dual screen, and our "test" were removing it from standard so there are no suspects. people would play a DX-S (and suspectless) metagame and largely be like "ok, whatever, maybe this meagame is a little easier but DX-S wasn't really gamebreaking so whatever? comparing it to the DX-S metagame (again, no dual screen), this isnt really uber..." and that would be that.
but one, we don't test things that way because we need the actual reagant present in order to see if there is a reaction, and two, DX-S was rare in that there is currently not one suspect that is OU. everything we're testing is uber, and will fall into the same pitfall as wobbuffet in that "hey what the hell did you do to my metagame, this is different, i dont like different, so i'm voting this uber". there just isn't that much passion to whore the ladder to keep things the way they are compared to banning something, as stated. this could all be avoided if we had a great definition of uber in the first place, since we have always tried to separate "different" in the "metagame shift" sense from "uber", but whatever.
we will probably be talking about this very soon in pr or something
On the subject of reseting people, I am against in mainly because we aren't including any people not using shoddy, like Wi-Fi say. It looks like I am going to have to do some massive laddering though if I hope to make it. Personally, I believe that Skymin is not really that bad with quite a few common weaknesses and general frailty making it hard to switch in. The best set I have found so far is SubPetaya for late game sweeping, but there are better choices for that spot.
I asked you a question?
Also, we have already been told that records will not be reset.
Is there a certain amount of "new thing bias"? If you're not aiming to vote and there's a ladder where xyz is allowed you'll probably play it just to try out xyz, which leads to more usages equaling more perceived threat. Obviously this problem is averted when people are made to play both ladders, but I'm referring to people who don't care / are battling "for fun".
There's also a certain amount of "new thing" bias in that people have to change their teams for some suspects that may not be Uber, and they take "changing my team" = "uber". This isn't true, as any team has to account for big threats, but the fact that the threat wasn't there before and that they have to change their team for it leads to a lot of "overcentralization" votes, I believe. Requiring several responses (Chomp) though is much more valid.
Jump said something about needing a definition for Uber and I think that's exactly what we need. It's too bad objectivity is difficult in Pokémon, if not impossible (my "idol" Aldaron thought it to be impossible to achieve), but something to disspell what some see as noob reasons (the one above TO AN EXTENT, etc.)
There's also a certain amount of "new thing" bias in that people have to change their teams for some suspects that may not be Uber, and they take "changing my team" = "uber". This isn't true, as any team has to account for big threats, but the fact that the threat wasn't there before and that they have to change their team for it leads to a lot of "overcentralization" votes, I believe. Requiring several responses (Chomp) though is much more valid.
Jump said something about needing a definition for Uber and I think that's exactly what we need. It's too bad objectivity is difficult in Pokémon, if not impossible (my "idol" Aldaron thought it to be impossible to achieve), but something to disspell what some see as noob reasons (the one above TO AN EXTENT, etc.)
A definition of Uber would be helpful, but very hard to achieve. I'll try giving it a shot; feel free to make any comments.
A pokemon who does one or more of the following to an adequate degree:
- overcentralises the OU metagame single-handlingly (not because of other pokemon - so this discludes pokemon that are only used to counter other pokemon e.g. Magneton in ADV for Skarm, who didn't even overcentralise the metagame (I can't think of an example)).
- is very difficult to counter, especially with just one pokemon.
- provides an enormous benefit to one's team, considerably greater than that of other OU pokemon. This can be achieved by support (Deoxys-S) or raw power (Garchomp).
In the case of Garchomp, he had very powerful and well-distributed stats with just the right movepool. Thanks to Yache Berry, he was very difficult to counter without giving up a pokemon, true counters were extremely limited and a bit absurd e.g. Scarf Cresselia, Suicune, Vaporeon. He had raw power to essentially have a guaranteed KO each match and dominated the metagame.
In the case of Deoxys-S, it had insane speed and adequate defences with a brilliant movepool to act as a very powerful lead. Thanks to his speed, it was very difficult to prevent DS from being set up (and SR), as it could Taunt you before you used Taunt, Trick e.g. He didn't dominate the metagame to the point of uber (his highest ranking on the OU ladder at any month was #10), but his team support was enormous. Counters would have to stop DS from being set up, and that would include Scarf Trick Gengar, Alakazam and Azelf - very few pokemon (and they need Scarf).
In the case of Wobbuffet, it is his ability combined with his ridiculous HP and Encore + Counter & Mirror Coat. With his ability, no counter could enter the battlefield, and he essentially had a guaranteed KO or free turn to your team.
I'll also guess that OHKO Clause and Evasion Clause are applied because they can make the metagame very luck based and greatly reduce the amount of skill in a match, whilst at the same time, are very powerful. OHKO moves and Evasion moves are, what I call, uber moves.
I might eventually make a thread for the definition of Uber.
Defining/arguing what is uber is ultimately a futile endeavor, as there are most likely as many differing opinions on the subject as there are members of Smogon. Just like in politics, when a consensus cannot be reached, the next best thing to do is take a vote, in the hope that the majority will be pleased.
The thing people have to understand is that "because it threatens MY team" isn't a valid excuse to send it to uber. Skymin is far from an unstopable force, and without even dwelling into saying that it isn't uber material, it doesn't dominate the Standard environment. Sending a pokemon to uber doen't go well for OU. Sending Garchomp to uber was beneficial to OU because it opened up the OU environment, seeing as how people no longer had to stack their teams with pysical walls to counteract Garchomp. I haven't hearn a single person say that because of Skymin, they had to stack their team full of special walls.
Therefore, all sending Skymin to Uber will just further breakdown an already small crowd of OU special attackers.
Therefore, all sending Skymin to Uber will just further breakdown an already small crowd of OU special attackers.
THere's nothing to really argue about. He's right. The purpose of the Uber environment is to isolate overly powerful pokemon who are too dominant to battle in OU.
This is just a question about the rating required in order to be eligible to vote.
Does your rating have to be 1650 - 1710? I didn't understand what it meant by minimum rating must be 1650 with a deviation of 60.
Does your rating have to be 1650 - 1710? I didn't understand what it meant by minimum rating must be 1650 with a deviation of 60.
your rating is the average of your low and high ratings. deviation is the difference between your high and low ratings divided by 2.
Not really. Their definition is not different of too powerful. Let's face it people don't look too in depth when looking into the subject of whether a pokemon is too powerful or not. They think and remember how their team did against the given poket monster last time they were up against it. So really, something too powerful for OU for a person is something that obliterates their team. Garchomp was really powerful so it destroyed a lot of peoples teams who then dubed it too powerful. Skymin doesn't have the ability to do that. It has the ability to have Choice specs, come in, fire up seed flare then switch out. A basic strategy for a choice pokemon with poor STAB coverage. Which is something that lets it down.
Very few Skymin actually have Specs. Look at the usage data for October. Skymin's items are LO, Leftovers, Scarf and other. Most common Skymin is LO Skymin with Seed Flare, Air Slash, Earth Power and Sub.
im pretty sure that skymin the only reason for #10 and not TOP3 in the statistics is the high amount of 1/2 counter in the top10
scarfheatran, zapdos, salamence, scizor, blissey, gengar, metagross and the high amount of srocks around there make it nearly impossible to get a good switch-in for skymin
scarfheatran, zapdos, salamence, scizor, blissey, gengar, metagross and the high amount of srocks around there make it nearly impossible to get a good switch-in for skymin
Just posting so everyone can see the new requirements
You're actually saying Blissey can't switch in with much threat? Do you realize that your long bold line there includes percentages that, when combined, indicate Blissey will faint less than one third of the time (32.946%)? Do you even understand the concept of probability? Cause this is the second time I have had to point this out to you.
And this is assuming Blissey switches in to Seed Flare or Substitute on the set you've been using for your argument. This is also assuming that Blissey is not running any SpD EVs. The last stats show that Blissey is as likely to be Calm as Bold (45% vs 46%) and has a great deal of SpD EVs over 50% of the time. To the 651HP/385SpD Blissey that leads off her analysis, Seed Flare does 19-23% from Modest Skymin, if it hits. If it also drops SpD, then Air Slash does 24-28%, if it hits.
So, even if it rolls max damage, Skymin is going to need two flinches to get Blissey in Seed Flare's KO range, and will need three if it rolls near min damage. This is a 22% chance at best for Skymin and 12% if it needs three flinches, which I would say is "little to no risk". This is also assuming no Leftovers recovery for Blissey, which I guess washes with my assumption that Skymin doesn't have LO, which it only did 20% of the time last month in actuality. Consult statistics and try to gain an understanding of probability before you try to make further claims on what is a check and what is a counter.
And this is assuming Blissey switches in to Seed Flare or Substitute on the set you've been using for your argument. This is also assuming that Blissey is not running any SpD EVs. The last stats show that Blissey is as likely to be Calm as Bold (45% vs 46%) and has a great deal of SpD EVs over 50% of the time. To the 651HP/385SpD Blissey that leads off her analysis, Seed Flare does 19-23% from Modest Skymin, if it hits. If it also drops SpD, then Air Slash does 24-28%, if it hits.
So, even if it rolls max damage, Skymin is going to need two flinches to get Blissey in Seed Flare's KO range, and will need three if it rolls near min damage. This is a 22% chance at best for Skymin and 12% if it needs three flinches, which I would say is "little to no risk". This is also assuming no Leftovers recovery for Blissey, which I guess washes with my assumption that Skymin doesn't have LO, which it only did 20% of the time last month in actuality. Consult statistics and try to gain an understanding of probability before you try to make further claims on what is a check and what is a counter.
When I read posts like those from darknessmalice, I start thinking that ratings alone might very well not be enough.
Then again, I did argue once that intelligence should not be a factor in one's right to vote.
@New Requirements-- I get the reason for the change but do you really think you can aim to get a certain amount of voters? I just think the requirements aren't so different from deoxys-S's vote that you cannot expect to get double the people. imo, the ones who voted are probably not so much decided by their skill as the fact that they wanted to vote, and thus aimed at the target. (keeping in mind that I'm currently at ~1780 with ~45 deviation right now)
Then again, I did argue once that intelligence should not be a factor in one's right to vote.
@New Requirements-- I get the reason for the change but do you really think you can aim to get a certain amount of voters? I just think the requirements aren't so different from deoxys-S's vote that you cannot expect to get double the people. imo, the ones who voted are probably not so much decided by their skill as the fact that they wanted to vote, and thus aimed at the target. (keeping in mind that I'm currently at ~1780 with ~45 deviation right now)
Actually, the whole list of checks/counters changes changes rather substantially for Subseed Skymin, which Blissey is nearly helpless against, for example. Granted, Subseed Skymin is fairly rare right now (although I use it), since Leech Seed is only being used on 24.3% of Skymins. Now, I agree that Skymin is far from Uber, and probably not even as good as Salamence or Scizor. But it viable and even a serious threat in OU, which seems to fall into doubt at times in this thread. The fact that Skymin destroys lead Azelf and threatens other common leads such as Machamp and Infernape makes it pretty useful, although it does have serious problems with switching in repeatedly. I'm a bit confused by the significance of the usage statistics in Skymin's case. As several individuals have pointed out rather well, Skymin is not very effective as a pure special sweeper. So why are people using it as if it is? I always use Leftovers on Skymin (again, I exclusively use Subseed), and I'm completely lost as to why anyone would use Life Orb on it.
Just to check, deviation is highest - lowest / 2, right?
That would seem to indicate it isn't Uber, being checked by some of the metagame's most threatening Pokémon...
I don't see how this is an argument for Ubers, this is an argument against it...
That would seem to indicate it isn't Uber, being checked by some of the metagame's most threatening Pokémon...
I don't see how this is an argument for Ubers, this is an argument against it...
Agreeing with Chris that is a pokemon is checked by the game's top threats, that would indicate it has problems, no that it makes problems.
I don't understand why (slight) versatility is Uber on Shaymin-S but not on something like Salamence.
Having different checks for different movesets is nothing new, and is not an argument for Ubers, either. In fact, because Shaymin-S needs to resort to varied options to take on certain threats, it shows that it isn't Uber.
Your point? He didn't say Skymin was Uber because of its "versatility", just that the counter list for its Subseed set is different than for the Sweeper sets.
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