New and "creative" moveset/EV spread thread "Mark 2"

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Kindly point out your 'comment'. There has not been a single constructive criticism or suggestion. If there had been then of course I wouldn't have bumped it. Plus, since I'm linking to the post instead of reposting it, I am not forcing you to scroll through my analysis again. It was going to be the last time I 'bumped' it anyway. The only reason I did so was to clear it from the arguments on the NFEs, in case people were skipping them.

Thank you.
 
Missingno. Master said:
Empoleon @Leftovers
Calm
EVs: 252 HP, 200 Sp.Def, 58 Def
-Iron Defense
-Aqua Ring/Toxic
-Dive
-Surf

An all-around defensive Empoleon. I honestly don't know what switches out against it, but take that opportunity to use Iron Defense. Dive allows for a free turn of Aqua Ring recovery, or Toxic damage, whichever route you're going. I honestly don't know how effective this set would be, if at all, but I'd appreciate help, if you people would be kind enough to do so.
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Umm.... Does anyone like/hate this set at all??
 
Well, if your using Dive, Toxic should be the primary option, as it wont do you any good if you just get recovery, while not damagin the opponent. I would either change Dive or Surf, as you should get a better coverage and wont get walled by things that can absorb the / take little damage from it. I'd suggest HP Electric / Ice Beam or Grass Knot there.

Overall, I dont know if it'd work, as Empoleon seems to be switchin alot. ( for Aqua Ring for example )
 
Missingno. Master said:
ALRIGHT, ALREADY! I'll stop trying to defend these sets. It obviously seems as though you all are dead set against ever thinking about trying them out. And I suppose you have good reason, too. I admit it, they're shit. And the FEAR Swinub is supposed to be lv. 11, so it's not countered by other FEAR Pokemon.



Alright, so here's a new set of mine that I hope doesn't suck. And it doesn't involve an NFE, either. Or Luvdisc.

Empoleon @Leftovers
Calm
EVs: 252 HP, 200 Sp.Def, 58 Def
-Iron Defense
-Aqua Ring/Toxic
-Dive
-Surf

An all-around defensive Empoleon. I honestly don't know what switches out against it, but take that opportunity to use Iron Defense. Dive allows for a free turn of Aqua Ring recovery, or Toxic damage, whichever route you're going. I honestly don't know how effective this set would be, if at all, but I'd appreciate help, if you people would be kind enough to do so.

And.... I'm sorry. Sorry about ranting and whatnot about those sets I made. Really, I am. The infractions I got from this thread were well-deserved, and I don't blame Great Sage one bit for not changing his mind about the first one. I have been a complete and total ass.
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The only way this is going to work is if you are stalling, correct?

So, sense we now realize this, what is Surf really doing? The only thing I can see is them completely out predicting you by switching between Ludicolo and Bronzong or something like that after you have Iron Defense up. Anyways, point being, Surf isn't doing much and the added Aqua Ring recovery helps. Point being, go Toxic over Surf, its better that way.
 
Iron Defense / Toxic / Dive / Aqua Ring I guess. Can't take that set too competitively tho since it is trying to stall w/out team aid, which I have figured out to be a fiasco. Go with Careful because Dive is physical.

Overall I think Empoleon has better things to do, like sweep with Sub Petaya Torrent, set up Stealth Rock, or simply tank special attacks.
 
That Empoleon is kinda meh. Even with Iron Defense, it still doesn't like taking physical SE hits like Close Combat and Earthquake, and in terms of special weaknesses, Thunderbolt weakness doesn't help its case. Aqua Ring is also rather mediocre, and you get 100% walled by Vaporeon and Suicune. It's CroCune setup bait and it poses somewhere around nada actual threat without Toxic. It's also Breloom setup bait, which tears stall teams up.
 
Well... Lucario right now has a new toy to play with - Metal Sound, which decreases Special Defense two stages, which gives you bigger power compared to SpecsLuke (for the prize of surprise). Well Metal Sound is like using Nasty Plot, so it's comparable to Swords Danced Lucario. If I'm not mistaken, Metal Sounded Modest Focus Blast almost OHKO Bliss with SR up. So, that's the set:

'Metal Sound'
Lucario @ Life Orb/Lum Berry/Wide Lens
Trait: Stead Fast
EVs: 6 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid/Modest Nature
- Metal Sound
- Aura Sphere / Focus Blast
- Dark Pulse
- HP Ice / HP Electric / HP Rock / Flash Cannon / Vacuum Wave

Metal Sound is the most important skill here. Metal Sound, which works similar to Nasty Plot (but affecting opponents Special Defence), gives him a shot in wall breaking even Special Defence freaks like Blissey, Snorlax and Regice and it forces switches if you have Spikes/SR up, so that set can be a solid team supporter, if played well. Aura Sphere has better accuracy, but with Focus Blast you have a solid shot against Blissey, which can be troublesome even with STAB Aura Sphere. Dark Pulse is chosen here, because chance to flinch here could help here alot more against some threats, especially with +speed nature. But if ur afraid of Heracross and you chose in the last slot Vacuum Wave, Shadow Ball is fine replacement. And also Dark Pulse + Focus Blast/Aura Sphere gives you almost perfect coverage with only two moves resisted only by Heracross. Last slot is choice, which threatens your team more. HP Ice is mainly for Dragons and Gliscor, giving you in most cases (Bulky Dragonite can handle HP Ice being x4 weak) clear OHKO even without Metal Sound. With Metal Sound, +Special Def Dragonite won't enjoy HP Ice anyway. HP Electric mainly for Gyarados and some bulky waters, but remember that HP Electric on pokemon such as Milotic and Suicune has lower power on them then STAB Aura Sphere (140 compared to 150), so it's main target is Gyarados. If ur afraid of both Gyarados and Salamence, HP Rock is interesting option here. On SpecsLuke it lacks a bit power to be used with really good effect. With -2 Special Def, Salamence and Gyarados will be killed without bigger problems. Flash Cannon is pointed here only for Spiritomb, if you think that is threatens your team alot. But compared to other options it's worse choice. And Vacuum Wave is of course for priority and with -2 Special Def not many target will enjoy STAB Vacuum Wave from Lucario. About items - Life Orb gives you of course more power, especially for Blissey and Regice, which could be troublesome to be finished without it. Lum Berry may sound as strange choice, but it gives you bigger chance to beat Bliss 1on1, if you chose Aura Sphere to use in a place of Focus Blast. And absorbing T-Wave can win you a match in critical situations. Wide Lens is solid option, if you think that accuracy of Metal Sound and Focus Blast (especially together) is too shaky in your opinion. Any thoughts ?
 
Garganator said:
Well... Lucario right now has a new toy to play with - Metal Sound, which decreases Special Defense two stages, which gives you bigger power compared to SpecsLuke (for the prize of surprise). Well Metal Sound is like using Nasty Plot, so it's comparable to Swords Danced Lucario. If I'm not mistaken, Metal Sounded Modest Focus Blast almost OHKO Bliss with SR up. So, that's the set:

'Metal Sound'
Lucario @ Life Orb/Lum Berry/Wide Lens
Trait: Stead Fast
EVs: 6 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid/Modest Nature
- Metal Sound
- Aura Sphere / Focus Blast
- Dark Pulse
- HP Ice / HP Electric / HP Rock / Flash Cannon / Vacuum Wave

Metal Sound is the most important skill here. Metal Sound, which works similar to Nasty Plot (but affecting opponents Special Defence), gives him a shot in wall breaking pokemon even Special Defence freaks like Blissey, Snorlax and Regice and it forces switches if you have Spikes/SR up, so that set can be a solid team supporter, if played well. Aura Sphere has better coverage, but with Focus Blast you have a solid shot against Blissey, which can be troublesome even with STAB Aura Sphere. Dark Pulse is chosen here, because chance to flinch here could help here alot more against some threats, especially with +speed nature. But if ur afraid of Heracross and you chose in the last slot Vacuum Wave, Shadow Ball is fine replacement. And also Dark Pulse + Focus Blast gives you almost perfect coverage with only two moves resisted only by Heracross. Last slot is choice, which threatens your team more. HP Ice is mainly for Dragons and Gliscor, giving you in most cases (Bulky Dragonite can handle HP Ice being x4 weak) clear OHKO even without Metal Sound. With Metal Sound, +Special Def Dragonite won't enjoy HP Ice anyway. HP Electric mainly for Gyarados and some bulky waters, but remember that HP Electric on pokemon such as Milotic and Suicune has lower power on them then STAB Aura Sphere (140 compared to 150), so it's main target is Gyarados. If ur afraid of both Gyarados and Salamence, HP Rock is interesting option here. On SpecsLuke it lacks a bit power to be used with really good effect. With -2 Special Def, Salamence and Gyarados will be killed without bigger problems. Flash Cannon is pointed here only for Spiritomb, if you think that is threatens your team alot. But compared to other options it's worse choice. And Vacuum Wave is of course for priority and with -2 Special Def not many target will enjoy STAB Vacuum Wave from Lucario. About items - Life Orb gives you of course more power, especially for Blissey and Regice, which could be troublesome to be finished without it. Lum Berry may sound as strange choice, but it gives you bigger chance to beat Bliss 1on1, if you chose Aura Sphere to use in a place of Focus Blast. And absorbing T-Wave can win you a match in critical situations. Wide Lens is solid option, if you think that accuracy of Metal Sound and Focus Blast (especially together) is too shaky in your opinion. Any thoughts ?
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pretty good, but I think shadow ball should be an alternative option to drak pulse.
 
pretty good, but I think shadow ball should be an alternative option to drak pulse.
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Yeah, I wrote in analyse that Shadow Ball is an option, but to tell the truth only worth if you use both Aura Sphere/Focus Blast + Vacuum Well. With Dark Pulse you get walled by Heracross, if you use two fighting moves and Heracross has good enough basic special defence to survive one resisted hit, even with special def drop. Flinch chance here is more appealing then another special def drop in my opinion. But if you get it... Nothing will survive -3 dropped Special Defence. Well, I think it's worth a shot anyway. Heck, even Dragon Pulse is interesting option (and with rising usage of Kingdra even more appealing) and Lucario has really good list of special moves to use, so I think some people will find more options worth to use.
 
Wow. Love the Lucario idea.

Lucario's +Natured LO Focus Blast to +Natured 252 HP/252 SpD Blissey after Metal Sound: Damage: 84.31% - 99.30%

Wow. Blissey can't switch in at all, and nobody use 252 in HP and SpD anyway. Just throw some Stealth Rock and you got something to murder stall teams.

Metal Sound/Focus Blast/Flash Cannon/Vacuum Wave

After Metal Sound nothing can stand up to this, so you don't have to rely on type coverage. Even 72 HP Gyarados takes 73%+ damage from a resisted Focus Blast. Vacuum Wave is great, OHKOing Porygon-Z, other Lucario, and even Scizor is 2HKO'd by it if it tries to Bullet Punch you.
 
Wow. Love the Lucario idea.

Lucario's +Natured LO Focus Blast to +Natured 252 HP/252 SpD Blissey after Metal Sound: Damage: 84.31% - 99.30%

Wow. Blissey can't switch in at all, and nobody use 252 in HP and SpD anyway. Just throw some Stealth Rock and you got something to murder stall teams.

Metal Sound/Focus Blast/Flash Cannon/Vacuum Wave

After Metal Sound nothing can stand up to this, so you don't have to rely on type coverage. Even 72 HP Gyarados takes 73%+ damage from a resisted Focus Blast.
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As I said, with SR up, Blissey gets OHKO'ed and we're talking about the most special defensive variant ;). And no one use it, so Aura Sphere after Metal Sound will be close to OHKO on less +SpDef Blissey and it's accuracy makes it superior choice here. About coverage - you're right, but I think it's worth a shot to choose a move like HP Rock, if you feel that sometimes you must attack right on the spot. But if you feel that you have time to set up (and with his good resistances it's not that hard) than your proposition sounds the best here. And it's great that you like the idea ;).
 
Well here is a new BraceTricker lead that has been working pretty well.

TrickBrace (Rotom-h) @ Macho Brace
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 244 HP/152 Spd/112 SAtk
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Trick
- Discharge
- Overheat
- Shadow Ball

Rotom-h, as a lead, hurts many leads that are out there. I love switching Brace onto Azelf and OHKOing with Shadow Ball. It works extremely well for crippling sweepers, even hurts some walls. I really want this set to be more known, so please comment, and use it if you want.
 
Lucario can also learn Calm Mind which would be better for you. If they switched blissey in and you had Lum Berry you can just Calm Mind up again and then Focus Blast for the OHKO. Just another option I suppose.
 
TrickBrace (Rotom-h) @ Macho Brace
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 244 HP/152 Spd/112 SAtk
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Trick
- Discharge
- Overheat
- Shadow Ball
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Wouldn't Iron Ball work better than Macho Brace?

Iron Ball doesn't affect speed (helps if your team has a Gyro Ball user), but makes the user go last (think about every attack the holder of Iron Ball get a -0.5 to priority) and also gives your team the benefit of a guarantee to hit the receiver with earthquake. The only downside of Iron Ball that it negates Rotom's levitate, so switching into Ground attacks would most likely OHKO it.
 
But I am pretty sure Rotom is leading, correct?

If so then it wouldn't matter, because most people won't know to Earthquake Rotom until its too late...
 
Missingno. Master said:
ALRIGHT, ALREADY! I'll stop trying to defend these sets. It obviously seems as though you all are dead set against ever thinking about trying them out. And I suppose you have good reason, too. I admit it, they're shit. And the FEAR Swinub is supposed to be lv. 11, so it's not countered by other FEAR Pokemon.



Alright, so here's a new set of mine that I hope doesn't suck. And it doesn't involve an NFE, either. Or Luvdisc.

Empoleon @Leftovers
Calm
EVs: 252 HP, 200 Sp.Def, 58 Def
-Iron Defense
-Aqua Ring/Toxic
-Dive
-Surf

An all-around defensive Empoleon. I honestly don't know what switches out against it, but take that opportunity to use Iron Defense. Dive allows for a free turn of Aqua Ring recovery, or Toxic damage, whichever route you're going. I honestly don't know how effective this set would be, if at all, but I'd appreciate help, if you people would be kind enough to do so.

And.... I'm sorry. Sorry about ranting and whatnot about those sets I made. Really, I am. The infractions I got from this thread were well-deserved, and I don't blame Great Sage one bit for not changing his mind about the first one. I have been a complete and total ass.
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It has a good chance of working w/ Salmence/Skymin and there highly exploitable Ice Weaknesses to get a free switch but will most likely get screwed over by most Physical/Mixed sweepers.
 
Heres a cool little Froslass I've been using in UU for quite some time. I'm not sure if it's been mentioned already so here it is anyway.

Froslass @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Snow Cloak
Nature: Timid
EV's: 112 HP / 252 SpA / 146 Spe
~Trick
~Thunderbolt
~Ice Beam
~Spikes / Shadow Ball

This set is designed to screw over the now common Baton Pass Lopunny lead. It's simple. You Trick first turn to give them the Choice Scarf, and whatever move they use will be their last. Froslass will have the ability to switch into Lopunny at any point in the match if it is the standard Baton Pass set.

After useing Trick you are free to set up a free layer of Spikes or hit the incoming switch in with a good strong move, which both offer great coverage. Shadow Ball can be used if you wish to take out opposing Froslass leads that are running the same set.

The EV's allow you to outspeed Timid Choice Scarf / Salac Primeape after the boost (if you still have Choice Scarf of course). The HP EV's are random but they allow her to take at least 1 hit before she goes down. Again that one turn can be used to set or Spikes or hit the incoming switch in.
 
HotPocket said:
But I am pretty sure Rotom is leading, correct?

If so then it wouldn't matter, because most people won't know to Earthquake Rotom until its too late...
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I'm completely aware of iron ball, but its not on the Shoddy items list, neither is Lagging Tail, so I have to go a couple steps down. Its annoying, but Macho Brace still does the job.
 
MSLuke doesn't work.

Blissey just switches after the Metal Sound and unless you have 3 Spikes and SR it's not going to murder most teams anytime soon.

Metal Sounders and Screechers can indeed work, however you need the user to generally be bulky for the set to fly, and Lucario has many common weaknesses and pretty bad stats.

It's good on paper with the calcs. In practice no one uses bliss as a luke counter.
 
I was looking through about half this thread and didn't see this posted so yeah. If it has been thought of before then I guessed I missed it. Sorry if old.

482-3.png


Azelf @ Light Clay
Ability: Levitate
Evs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Nature: Jolly (+Spe / -SpA)
~Light Screen
~Reflect
~Taunt / Psychic
~Explosion / U-Turn

Here is an Azelf I've been using on my novelty team.

Bring the little pixie in on something and hopefully force a switch. Throw up a screen to counter what you think the opponent will bring in on Azelf and then throw up your last screen. Now I've never actually used Taunt on this Azelf as I usually end up throwing up my screens then exploding the little pixie right away so as not to waste too many turns of LS and R. But maybe some of you will find it useful.

Psychic can be used over Taunt if you feel your opponent is going to predict your explosion. 4 Hp / 0Def / 0SpDef Gengar is still OHKO'd even with a -SpA nature with Psychic so don't worry about the loss of power with Jolly. 252 Atk + Jolly nature is to give Explosion as much kick as possible. U-Turn is listed as another option just in case you want to save Azelf for another round of screening later on in the game.

It's pretty late at night so I've only tested this guy in a few matches but I'll be sure to test it more when I have some free time. I haven't used this as a lead much at all with T-Tar, Trick users, Weaviles etc etc roaming around. If any of you want to test it out and see how well it works be my guest.
 
MSLuke doesn't work.

Blissey just switches after the Metal Sound and unless you have 3 Spikes and SR it's not going to murder most teams anytime soon.

Metal Sounders and Screechers can indeed work, however you need the user to generally be bulky for the set to fly, and Lucario has many common weaknesses and pretty bad stats.

It's good on paper with the calcs. In practice no one uses bliss as a luke counter.
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To tell the truth I never thought of it as a sweeper (especially in early/mid-game). In todays metagame obssesed on speed that Luke won't sweep anytime soon, especially with some random scarf users, when he has 'only' 90 basic speed. That why the hell someone would try to use it ? Wall breaking (or late game sweep), that's his niche for me. And some calcs proove that this guy do it quite well. True, Lucario has bad stats for defensive pokemon, but Metal Sound work here as quasi Nasty Plot (that's why max speed is neccesary). That Lucario has one big advantage over standard Screech/Metal Sound users - solid speed and much higher then most of them Special Attack (not counting Heatran and Magnezone) and thanks to STAB Focus Blast/Aura Sphere, he is the only one that can finish Bliss after only ONE Metal Sound. So that's why I said it works like quasi Nasty Plot. It won't tank anytime soon and I'm aware of it (like most Screech/Metal Sound users can). If you switch on safely, Metal Sound switch (yeah, many people switch walls on Lucario), opponent most of times is in hard situation, if it's slower. This Luke will have problems with Clear Body users, especially Tentacruel resisting both fighting and steel moves. About Bliss as counter - yeah, no one will switch Blissey on Lucario at FIRST time. But on second, if opponent know that ur using special oriented Lucario, I think he'll switch on, thinking that he can handle Lucario. Yeah, frailness is the biggest problem on that Lucario, but if you can predict switches quite well, it can be dangerous.

EDIT to post under this: Well, Blissey counters MOST special based sets from Lucario. So I think when it knows that your Lucario is special oriented, it will switch on Lucario. Earlier of course hell no ;).
 
Garganator said:
As I said, with SR up, Blissey gets OHKO'ed and we're talking about the most special defensive variant ;). And no one use it, so Aura Sphere after Metal Sound will be close to OHKO on less +SpDef Blissey and it's accuracy makes it superior choice here. About coverage - you're right, but I think it's worth a shot to choose a move like HP Rock, if you feel that sometimes you must attack right on the spot. But if you feel that you have time to set up (and with his good resistances it's not that hard) than your proposition sounds the best here. And it's great that you like the idea ;).
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since when does blissey switch into lucario?
 
Heres a badass Gyarados set I've ben using. It's pretty standard, other than Gyarados' new toy that it got in Platinum; Bounce.

Gyarados @ Life Orb
Trait: Intimidate
Nature: Adament / Jolly
EV's: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 6 HP
~Dragon Dance
~Bounce
~Waterfall
~Stone Edge

The cool thing about this set is that if Celebi switches into a Dragon Dance, it will always lose if it doesn't have Reflect. Using Bounce allows you to dodge Thunder Wave or Grass Knot, while a turn later allowing you to always OHKO 252 HP / 220 Def Celebi even WITHOUT any prior damage. Celebi takes a minimum of 103% from Bounce which is why it's really something people should try.

Waterfall will be used for everything else not being hit by it's other moves, and is also Gyarados' most reliable STAB move. Stone Edge is used for Zapdos and opposing Gyarados / Salamence.

If you run Jolly then you still have a 96% chance of OHKO the Celebi stated above, but you can also destroy any CeleTran you encounter since Gyarados can now outspeed Timid Choice Scarf Heatran before it can hit you with a Hidden Power [Electric].
 
Legacy Raider said:
This. Is so true. I'm sorry to all the people who have been posting all these new 'creative' sets, but things like CBGar just don't cut it. I used to love skimming through this thread bursting with new ideas, but in the last couple of pages the only thing that has piqued my interest is Skiddle's Magmortar.

Sigh. I hope this thread gets back on track, and I think I might post a set I've been using to help it do just that.

--------------------
Spr_4p_068.png

--------------------
Encore Lead
@ Lum Berry
Adamant - No Guard
252 HP, 160 Atk, 96 SpD

<ivs - 19 Spe>

- Substitute
- Encore
- Dynamicpunch
- Stone Edge / Payback
--------------------

Now I know what you're thinking: "That's just the Anti-Lead set in the analysis with Encore thrown in the last slot". Yes, I admit I was trying the set out, but to be perfectly honest that last slot with Fire / Ice Punch is pretty useless. And Encore is such a devastating move against most leads that I thought it deserved a mention, if only in the creative moveset thread.

Dynamicpunch plus Stone Edge / Payback give impeccable coverage with just two moves, hitting almost everything with at least neutral damage. This allows you to use two support moves, and they work excellently against almost any kind of lead. Whether you use Substitute first or Encore first depends on what the opposing lead is. If it is something like Bronzong, you Substitute up first. This protects you against anything Bronzong can throw at you, and allows you to Encore their Hypnosis, Trick, Gyro Ball, Stealth Rock, whatever. Then you can proceed to 2HKO with Dynamicpunch. If you are leading against something that will set up Stealth Rock, say Azelf, you can Encore the move and force a switch. On the other hand, Dynamicpunch + Stone Edge will KO Azelf, so you can Dynamicpunch the first turn, survive the Psychic and KO with Stone Edge.

The number of common leads that this guy can beat is unreal: Bronzong, Azelf, Electrode, Metagross, Abomasnow, Tyranitar, Aerodactyl, Crobat, Weavile, Porygon2, Yanmega, Roserade, Ninjask, Smeargle, and Forretress are almost always beaten by this pokemon. Encore allows you a free turn (aka Substitute) against any set up lead, be it SR or Screens or even Rain Dance. This, in conjunction with the rampant confusion you cause with your Dynamicpunches, can easily allow you to see the vast majority of an opposing team. My record is 5 pokemon off the bat =P.

I'm posting some damage calcs so you can see Machamp's awesomeness =):

Code: 
[B]vs 252/0/96 Machamp:[/B]

- Timid Azelf Psychic - [B]76.6 - 90.6%[/B]
- Modest Yanmega Air Slash - [b]66.1 - 78.6%[/b]
- Timid LO Gengar Shadow Ball - [b]45.3 - 52.4%[/b]
- 156 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball - [b]19.8 - 23.4%[/b] [COLOR="Red"]will never break his Sub[/COLOR]
- CB Metagross Meteor Mash - [b]86.7 - 102.3%[/b] [COLOR="Red"]slightly ouch, but still 81% chance to survive[/COLOR]
--------------------

Anyway, I have to go for a bit. Leave comments and all, I might come and expand on the ideas somewhat later.

Thanks, LR.
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I really don't know WHAT to say about it, Encore is just a really sweet move, and Machamp using it is no exception. Although, why does it have a Lum Berry and Substitute... to mess with Scarfed Gengar or something?
 
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