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Skymin Discussion Thread
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Pokemon X always has a good chance of beating Pokemon Y with proper training and moves, so I don't know where you are going with Zapdos.
Just because a pokemon is rarely used doesn't mean that it isn't a good counter. Nidoqueen isn't used that often, but does that mean it doesn't take on Heracross well?
I've actually forced skymin out using tyranitar lol
Yeah after it kills something. Have fun forcing it out by switching it in. SPD drop on switch and dead on the next turn.
Ok, I agree with Maniac here you guys just aren't thinking logically in your arguments:
Terrible argument. For starters, Shaymin-S has resistances to Water, Ground, and Fighting, 3 of the most common attack moves along with 100 / 75 / 75 defenses compared to Salamences 95 / 80 / 80. I don't see where the difference is here. So Shaymin-S trades 10 more HP at level 100 for 10 less defense and special defense, meaning it is very similar defensively to Salamence
Salamence certainly is viable defensively. It has reliable recovery, great HP, and its defenses can be EVed according. Furthermore, it gets Intimidate to help soak up fighting attacks. So that is a point for Salamence, because Shaymin-S doesn't have intimidate, but nevertheless it has semi-decent recovery in synthesis, and could switch into water all day if it really wanted to. If you fear Ice Beam, that affects both pokemon the same, so that is no longer a valid argument.
Again, they both have recovery so its possible. If you really want to use them defensively, then YES IT CAN switch into Surf more than 2-3 times a battle. But if your using a 4 HP / 0 defense spread and have no recovery then obviously your not going to be switchin in multiple times.. now are you?
Seriously, you guys are sounding like idiots... your wrong on this one again! See this:
Perfectly viable Special Defensive set that can switch in... and Roost up all game.
Clearly you haven't been using the right Gyarados. Gyarados again.. has similar defensive stats to Shaymin-S, at 95 / 79 on the physical spectrum. Intimidate is the only difference here. Gyarados lacks recovery which is another point for Shaymin-S.
Furthermore, I am apalled at these claims that a defensive Gyarados is useless. Clearly you haven't seen this:
Gyarados @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Nature: Impish
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
*Waterfall
*Dragon Dance
*Rest
*Sleep Talk
Certain a "bulky" Gyarados that can switch into shit all game. I've been using RestTalk Gyarados defensively on all my competitive teams for the last 3-4 months. Hell, I even named my last bulky Gyarados after you on my Yanmega team! Furthermore, if you use this... this thing can switch into Heracross all day.. especially Choice Scarf Heracross which can't even beat it with Stone Edge.
Again... see above. Salamence does it.
What? Crobat doesn't kill itself to beat Skymin. Crobat is just a flat out 100% counter. It has Roost to do its job all day as well.
Either your opponent was Choiced and locked into the wrong move, paralyzed earlier in the battle, or he was just a fucking idiot.
Terrible argument. For starters, Shaymin-S has resistances to Water, Ground, and Fighting, 3 of the most common attack moves along with 100 / 75 / 75 defenses compared to Salamences 95 / 80 / 80. I don't see where the difference is here. So Shaymin-S trades 10 more HP at level 100 for 10 less defense and special defense, meaning it is very similar defensively to Salamence
Salamence certainly is viable defensively. It has reliable recovery, great HP, and its defenses can be EVed according. Furthermore, it gets Intimidate to help soak up fighting attacks. So that is a point for Salamence, because Shaymin-S doesn't have intimidate, but nevertheless it has semi-decent recovery in synthesis, and could switch into water all day if it really wanted to. If you fear Ice Beam, that affects both pokemon the same, so that is no longer a valid argument.
Again, they both have recovery so its possible. If you really want to use them defensively, then YES IT CAN switch into Surf more than 2-3 times a battle. But if your using a 4 HP / 0 defense spread and have no recovery then obviously your not going to be switchin in multiple times.. now are you?
Seriously, you guys are sounding like idiots... your wrong on this one again! See this:
Perfectly viable Special Defensive set that can switch in... and Roost up all game.
Clearly you haven't been using the right Gyarados. Gyarados again.. has similar defensive stats to Shaymin-S, at 95 / 79 on the physical spectrum. Intimidate is the only difference here. Gyarados lacks recovery which is another point for Shaymin-S.
Furthermore, I am apalled at these claims that a defensive Gyarados is useless. Clearly you haven't seen this:
Gyarados @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Nature: Impish
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
*Waterfall
*Dragon Dance
*Rest
*Sleep Talk
Certain a "bulky" Gyarados that can switch into shit all game. I've been using RestTalk Gyarados defensively on all my competitive teams for the last 3-4 months. Hell, I even named my last bulky Gyarados after you on my Yanmega team! Furthermore, if you use this... this thing can switch into Heracross all day.. especially Choice Scarf Heracross which can't even beat it with Stone Edge.
Again... see above. Salamence does it.
What? Crobat doesn't kill itself to beat Skymin. Crobat is just a flat out 100% counter. It has Roost to do its job all day as well.
Either your opponent was Choiced and locked into the wrong move, paralyzed earlier in the battle, or he was just a fucking idiot.
I have resigned myself to not even trying to save the pokemon that Skymin switches in on. Behind a Sub that thing is deadly and can easily take out 2-3 pokemon on its own. If it comes in on my Gyarados, I will just keep Waterfalling to break its Substitutes so that at most I will only lose 1 pokemon before forcing it out.
Salamence is viable defensively, but not on an all-out attacking set which was clearly the one being talked about when mentioning Skymin as a threat.
The difference is that Salamence has much better moves and type coverage, and better offensive stats...so sacrificing them for defense is actually doable. You can pull off a "Fat Mence" set because you have the benefit of the best type coverage in the game (Dragon/Ground/Fire). If Skymin is not EVd offensively, you are basically neutering its potential to be a threat in anything except subseeding, which is not ban-worthy. I'm not sure how youre comparing a bulky Salamence to a Skymin at all.
Synthesis and Leech Seed, much like Serene Grace, Air Slash and Seed Flare, do not provide reliable ways of getting things done. They are not good Recovery moves.
Hm, resistance to Water, Ground and Fighting? Lots of other pokemon can claim to do that, better. Salamence and Gyarados come to mind.
The point is that if I want to use a defensive pokemon, Skymin is not high on my list. Salamence is higher. Maybe that's too objective but I would be surprised if anybody disagreed with me =\
Besides, the argument is about Skymin's defenses and not Salamence's.
Skymin does not have the raw defensive stats to tank hits without giving up a significant amount of offensive power, and it also has that nasty SR weak and lack of reliable recovery to make things worse. It is not fast enough to avoid getting hit, and it is not powerful enough even to beat things that are weak to its STAB. The only argument really is against Serene Grace, and if Skymin is banworthy because of Serene Grace (which it may be) then a lot of other luck-based things need to be banned alongside it.
You ever look at the calculations for how much air slash does to ttar? It's pitiful. If you can predict an air slash, you can bring ttar (easy considering how much the bitch relies on repeated uses of air slash). Unless you're running specs, you are not 1hko'ing a 252 HP ttar, let alone CB Careful TTar (fairly common and ev'd with near max special defense to take out gengar every time) with seed flare. Meanwhile it IS killing you with whatever rock/ice/fire attack it is carrying.
I'm not saying ttar is a shaymin counter, but point is you people have to be more creative with your play when it comes to handling offensive power-houses with your own offensive powerhouses.
@Raikou-- I'm fully aware of the effectiveness of bulky mence. On the other hand, I think the fact that bulky mence has resistance to fire and bug, and isn't additionally weak to fire, flying (and poison to a lesser extent) and intimidate are pretty important factors to its usefulness compared to a bulky skymin. Even you have to admit though, as useful as it is it is far from mence's most popular set for a reason-- the others are just more monstrous overall. Also synthesis is a far cry from roost, what with roost reaching double the max pp, getting rid of your 4x weak (and adding extra resistances) and WORKING IN SANDSTORM.
Not to mention rain which is on the rise, but then if it's raining mence is probably running away from some dragon/ice/rock attack user that outspeeds it.
You have to admit, even the bulky set for mence isn't putting the real tanks of the game out of a job, which is why I called mence "semi-viable" defensively. It's useful, but it ain't skarmory or gliscor, or even zapdos. Thanks to species clause, if you're running bulky mence you're not running mixmence, dd mence, or other offensive mence, which I think anyone would recognize as a missed opportunity.
If you're running some bulky shaymin-s with synthesis and sub-seed you're not running the fast earth-power-seed-flare-air-slash-hp-ice-hax-you-out sets that everyone seems to bitch about.
It's just like when we were arguing about garchomp theorymon wise. Everytime garchomp comes it's not in the sand, with sub, swords, yache, and dragon claw/dragon rush/outrage/fire fang/earthquake/draco meteor/earth power/stone edge as its move pool.
Everytime shaymin comes out is doesn't have 252 evs in all its stats with a substitute up and seed flare/earth power/hp ice/fire/air slash/substitute/leech seed/synthesis/energy ball/leaf storm in its movepool. >>
Just a few thoughts.
Thanks Jibaku, I stand corrected. TTar is even more beastly than I suggested. I should take my own advice since I always say "never underestimate ttar's special defense." I haven't actually gotten around to trying the careful CB set though, but I've seen it in action and its nuts.
So yeah, 1-on-1 skymin isn't beating ttar without like 10 air slash hax in a row. >>
Still, would you really leave your Tar in on a Skymin? I personally wouldn't unless it was my last option, which suggest that it is late game and you have run out of counters.... whichhhhhhhhh also suggests that Tyranitar is not at full health :-(.
I tend to disagree here man. For starters, Bulky mence does a better job at tanking than Bold Zapdos as far as statistics are concerned. Secondly, I personally like using Tankish pokemon that can take hits and pose an offensive threat rather than walls like Swords Danceless Gliscor that sit on their ass all day and do nothing. But that's just me.
Anyway, the point of my original argument was not to promote a defensive Skymin, but just to illustrate its defenses in relationship to its offensive competitors like Salamence. It's not paper thin by any means, its just the lack of EVs which happens with all sweepers. When I did the Crobat analysis, my damage calculations lead me to realize that you need 152 Attack EVs (254 attack IIRC) just to guarentee a OHKO on Skymin with Brave Bird (not factoring in Stealth Rock, just a straight up kill). To put this in perspective, that same Brave Bird will do 81-96% to Gengar, who isn't even weak to it. Stealth Rock is half of Skymin's problem, really.
I tend to disagree here man. For starters, Bulky mence does a better job at tanking than Bold Zapdos as far as statistics are concerned. Secondly, I personally like using Tankish pokemon that can take hits and pose an offensive threat rather than walls like Swords Danceless Gliscor that sit on their ass all day and do nothing. But that's just me.
Anyway, the point of my original argument was not to promote a defensive Skymin, but just to illustrate its defenses in relationship to its offensive competitors like Salamence. It's not paper thin by any means, its just the lack of EVs which happens with all sweepers. When I did the Crobat analysis, my damage calculations lead me to realize that you need 152 Attack EVs (254 attack IIRC) just to guarentee a OHKO on Skymin with Brave Bird (not factoring in Stealth Rock, just a straight up kill). To put this in perspective, that same Brave Bird will do 81-96% to Gengar, who isn't even weak to it. Stealth Rock is half of Skymin's problem, really.
@Darkmalice-- fix your post so it makes sense please . . . 252 HP ttar is probably some type of boah btw, with leftovers.
@Raikou-- I also like defensive pokemon that pose offensive threats (though I probably lean more to all-out-offensive)-- heck, I'm the one pushing ttar right? One great thing ttar has as an early switch in is that its sandstorm gets things moving. You also get to see if you're facing life orb, leftovers, or what. If you are that scared of staying in, switch out. Besides, if you managed to switch in on specs/scarf air slash you should be laughing your ass off as you substitute/DD up or just Crunch the switch in really hard.
Besides, I did say that ttar is not a "skymin counter." I just said that you have to learn to use your pokemon creatively (though apparently Syberia has also caught onto TTar's use against skymin).
TTar and Skymin are both common leads now, and skymin is not the one with the advantage (especially since Sassy is a common lead tar nature) when the two face each other. Generally Skymin should be running, and TTar should be Stone Edging the shit out of something.
@Bulkymence-- In mence's case though, I happen to know offensive mence is a beast. I also know bulky mence is a beast, but I know what I'm giving up when I pick one or the other-- and it's a significant loss to give up either. I don't know why you brought up zapdos though, because I'd much rather face it with a max speed naive mence who has a very high chance of out speeding and 1hko'ing it with Draco Meteor, than with a mence that could be out sped, HP Ice'd or thunderwave'd.
@Raikou-- I also like defensive pokemon that pose offensive threats (though I probably lean more to all-out-offensive)-- heck, I'm the one pushing ttar right? One great thing ttar has as an early switch in is that its sandstorm gets things moving. You also get to see if you're facing life orb, leftovers, or what. If you are that scared of staying in, switch out. Besides, if you managed to switch in on specs/scarf air slash you should be laughing your ass off as you substitute/DD up or just Crunch the switch in really hard.
Besides, I did say that ttar is not a "skymin counter." I just said that you have to learn to use your pokemon creatively (though apparently Syberia has also caught onto TTar's use against skymin).
TTar and Skymin are both common leads now, and skymin is not the one with the advantage (especially since Sassy is a common lead tar nature) when the two face each other. Generally Skymin should be running, and TTar should be Stone Edging the shit out of something.
@Bulkymence-- In mence's case though, I happen to know offensive mence is a beast. I also know bulky mence is a beast, but I know what I'm giving up when I pick one or the other-- and it's a significant loss to give up either. I don't know why you brought up zapdos though, because I'd much rather face it with a max speed naive mence who has a very high chance of out speeding and 1hko'ing it with Draco Meteor, than with a mence that could be out sped, HP Ice'd or thunderwave'd.
Eh?
So let's say we're using LO Skymin. 402 HP (I have a reason for this) TTar just took SR damage and has 352 HP left. Assuming TTar has 328 SDef and is facing a Timid Skymin...
Maximum Air Slash damage vs 252 SDef TTar:
43
That leaves TTar with 308 HP left
Maximum Seed Flare damage vs 252 SDef TTar:
276
309-276=33
TTar will survive. Take note that these are maximum damages. TTar can survive two Air Slashes and a Seed Flare if he's lucky enough. Actually his chances are pretty good, because if two Air Slashes deal maximum damage, 75% of the time TTar will survive the Seed Flare, and that's not counting the chance of Seed Flare missing.
Also, if TTar took 2 SR damages, and got Air Slashed and flinched, it still has a 62.5% chance of surviving Seed Flare (the 402 HP helps with this a little bit).
All calcs done with AMF's calc.
But considering that we just placed SR into the equation, let's see what happens on Skymin's field
25% (SR) + 10% (LO) + 6.25% (SS) = 41.25%
That's just with one attack that Skymin pulls off.
+Leftovers and skymin is not even getting through 252 hp ttar, let alone +sp.DEF
What if you don't use Life Orb? You will deal less damage but without the 10% recoils. If T-Tar switches in on Seed Flare, then it's Super Effective hit. Say if it gets a -Sp.Def drop, then the next Seed Flare will kill it, if not, Flinch it once with Air Slash and kill it then.
Remember, Shaymin doesn't need to take Stealth Rock damage EVERY TURN. It just takes 25% upon switch-in and that's it.
Remember, Shaymin doesn't need to take Stealth Rock damage EVERY TURN. It just takes 25% upon switch-in and that's it.
What the hell? Do you even bother reading other's comments? We were discussing TTar switches into air slash, or ttar lead v. skymin lead. We were saying ttar wins both of these. That's all.
Originally posted by Choutoshio 3 TIMES:
Besides, your whole post is totally pointless as we all know Skymin can 2 hko ttar if you're stupid enough to switch ttar into a seed flare, and ttar doesn't need LO or SR for just about any of its sets to 1hko shaymin S with whatever fire/ice/rock move it could be carrying. We were saying that even if ttar switches into LO air slash while taking SR damage (TTar takes SR damage), it still beats shaymin-s.
The underlining point is that even a pokemon like TTar, no where near the list of many skymin counters/viable switch ins, who is weak to skymin's best attack, can defeat skymin-s. It's not that impressive.
This reminds me of the time me and my opponent were both down to our last pokemon. My opponent had just killed my Infernape with a ScarfMin's Air Slash, and I switched in CBTTar (full health).
9 turns later I lost the game.
What is your point?
don't forget the 1/3 chance of just outright missing one of those air slashes due to its imperfect accuracy.
Yeah, you're right. So, it's (57%)^9 = 0,6351461955384057%.
What the hell Legacy, you're way too unlucky :(
What the hell Legacy, you're way too unlucky :(
Have you ever heard of CB Tar? It's the most common Tar set. It's got Adamant, 252 Att., 252 Hlth, 4 SpcDef. SR damage plus LO Air Slash flinch and Seed Flare is death. Even with Leftovers.
252 SpcDef Tar, 252 Hlth Tar however should be fine against Skymin.
... 95% > 66.7%. It's a 1/20 chance. Even Seed flare only has a 3/20 chance of missing.