But what About The flinch hax? A-slash... Doesnt Registeel flinch? And Earth power Too, Its a 2ko with a specs on Registeel..Considering a Sp.Def drop.. with Serene Grace
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Skymin Discussion Thread
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But what About The flinch hax? A-slash... Doesnt Registeel flinch? And Earth power Too, Its a 2ko with a specs on Registeel..Considering a Sp.Def drop.. with Serene Grace
clear body, and specs earth power is only a 3HKO. And as if air slash is going to flinch 25 times in a row or however many times it takes to get through registeel's 150 base special defense.
Steel resists air, and the chances of a Registeel being flinched to death by a Skymin is slim to none.
If you are relying on flinchhax to beat something, then it is a counter. And please be aware of the pokemon's abilities before trying to make assumptions.
Add onto this that while Regice has massive sp.def and a great offensive type, Registeel's long list of resistances and immunity to toxic make it more useful against pokemon other than Skymin.
Sadly this is true despite the fact that Crobat was a fucking shitty sleep inducer, and much better with Brave Bird and Roost.
There is just so much wrong with everything you said. Skymin needs Choice Specs in order to make Crobat kill itself, even after Stealth Rock. If Skymin is Life Orbed, Crobat can Roost twice before Brave Birding (probably not necessary though). Also, Hypnosis has nothing to do with Crobat's ability to counter Skymin since its illegal with Brave Bird. And Sludge Bomb on the Special Sweeper makes Crobat a reliable counter as well.
Registeel's usuage only rose to #93, which is still terrible since more people are using Shedinja in OU than Registeel. It hasn't gotten the enormous "jump" that you predicted.
And you right, why would I need a counter for Skymin when 4 of the top 5 pokemon in Heatran, Scizor, Zapdos, and Blissey all counter or kill it off one way or another? More than one of them are usually on the same team! And if I'm not mistaken after Stealth Rock and one attack, Scizor KOs with Bullet Punch anyway. Bottom line is... Skymin sucks. I would rather use Salamence for a flying typed sweeper, and the entire metagame agrees with me since Salamence nearly doubled Skymin's usage.
This hit the nail on the head. What you are missing, darknessmalice, is that you do NOT need a 100% counter to any pokemon in the game to beat it. You simply need to be able to handle the pokemon in one way or another. Like RaikouLover said, 4 of the top 5 OU pokemon have a way to handle Skymin. Are any of them 100% counters? No. Do they have to be? Not at all. Those pokemon all have ways of dealing with Skymin (even if they can only switch into certain attacks) and when they get in, they all threaten Skymin This is what you're missing in your poorly formed, theorymon argument.
Your entire arugment is based on the fact that Skymin will sometimes get lucky against one of these pokemon and beat them. Unfortunatly, these pokemon are often found in combination, so even if Skymin gets lucky once, they chances of it beating multiple checks in the same match are very low, and this is why Skymin is not nearly as effective as it looked on paper.
I already said that. People use checks to fight Skymin.
And if a check is beaten, it's generally due to prediction / prediction error by opponent. I've had plenty of enemy Heatran swap in on my Skymin as she sets up Sub, and then threaten him with Earth Power. Of course, that's why you have more than one check. Scizor can swap in on a Skymin using Sub, Bullet Punch that Sub and then KO (assuming Skymin took SR damage).
Luck is most generally used to a Seed Flare SpDrop or to get 1 flinch; aiming for more than that is too risky. Both scenarios have >50% of occuring.
This thing should be Uber, 60% flinch 80% SpD drop and Serene grace isn't fun at all, and the subseed combo of this will be extremely hard to kill if it constantly flinches you, this needs uber.
yeah I'm probably the only other person qualified to vote that agrees with you.
IPL also told me on shoddy that, if he had to pick a side, he'd say uber (but not really strongly), but that yeah most of the high-rated players feel it's very underwhelming. I'll be voting for OU for sure (if you couldn't guess).
@ Bogmire and Brian, do you really think this thing is uber or is it more that it is just an annoyance to fight against?
I actually think this needs to be discussed because I think that influences the voting substantially. For example, you complain about the "hax" or chances of flinch / sp def drop, etc. for Skymin but does that really make it uber? Sure, its a bitch to fight against but in the end I don't think either of you have had too much trouble handling it (especially you Brian because your stall team is annoying as fuck and I can't see it having Skymin problems). Personally, I think that was my issue with how hastily we moved Garchomp into ubers. I think it was more people were sick of sacrificing a pokemon to Yache chomp, or having a move miss at the wrong time then having Garchomp totally demolish their team. I never really saw any of the better players have a team get destroyed by Garchomp without a sheer bit of luck agains them. In the case of Deoxys-E, it wasn't so much that it was luck... it was just beginning every battle with a coin flip put one side at such a serious disadvantage. My personal consensus is the Shaymin-S is indeed OU, but I do agree in the fact that I don't enjoy fighting it. Should that influence my vote? No, but I have the feeling it will for most people.
I actually think this needs to be discussed because I think that influences the voting substantially. For example, you complain about the "hax" or chances of flinch / sp def drop, etc. for Skymin but does that really make it uber? Sure, its a bitch to fight against but in the end I don't think either of you have had too much trouble handling it (especially you Brian because your stall team is annoying as fuck and I can't see it having Skymin problems). Personally, I think that was my issue with how hastily we moved Garchomp into ubers. I think it was more people were sick of sacrificing a pokemon to Yache chomp, or having a move miss at the wrong time then having Garchomp totally demolish their team. I never really saw any of the better players have a team get destroyed by Garchomp without a sheer bit of luck agains them. In the case of Deoxys-E, it wasn't so much that it was luck... it was just beginning every battle with a coin flip put one side at such a serious disadvantage. My personal consensus is the Shaymin-S is indeed OU, but I do agree in the fact that I don't enjoy fighting it. Should that influence my vote? No, but I have the feeling it will for most people.
it was sarcasm guys...
I vote for banning sand veil gliscor!!
Well, OHKO moves got banned from extreme haxingess (30% chance of guaranteed KO on anything not immune to them, no exceptions, and its definitely guaranteed, even more than Yache Garchomp, Rayquaza, Kyorge anything). So did double team. They are 100% luck based. At least Zap Cannon, while really haxy, has some non-luck purpose e.g. with Forretress to cripple Gyarados. But you would risk that miss?
OK, but he was comparing Skymin to Zap Cannon so I'm not sure why you're bringing up OHKOs and Evasion moves (which are suspects anyway) at all.
You basically just contradicted your own argument, "would you risk that miss" applies just as much to Skymin as it does to Zap Cannon. And OHKOs for that matter, but that's a different argument.
You basically just contradicted your own argument, "would you risk that miss" applies just as much to Skymin as it does to Zap Cannon. And OHKOs for that matter, but that's a different argument.
Well, you say Zap Cannon has a non-luck purpose, but isn't killing one of the opponent's Pokemon a non-luck purpose. In the end you're trying to win anyway.
Every move that doesn't have the same properties as Aerial Ace is luck based. So is Zap Cannon.
Earth Power. But I really don't see why OHKOing is so necessary for Crobat anyway. Sometimes it would be preferable to just cripple Skymin enough to allow your next Pokemon to set up more comfortably, especially if it is holding Life Orb. If Crobat can Sludge Bomb it down to less than 20% before dying it will potentially allow something else to set up against a deadweight opponent. I guess it's a contrived argument but it's no different to a lot of other stuff suggested in this thread.
Aerial Ace is a bad example. So what if it can never miss? Neither do all 100% accurate moves in the absence of accuracy / evasion modifiers. But they are all dependent on the crit rate and damage RNG in terms of overall damage. Better examples would include stat-up moves, never-miss support moves such as Encore and Yawn, and fixed damage attacks (Seismic Toss / Night Shade / Pain Split etc). They are as close to 100% skill moves as you're going to get in Pokemon. Even Substitute is iffy as the RNG sometimes determines whether the Sub gets broken or not.
Perish Song is completely non-luck based. :P
Yes, you are right. The point is that he was talking about offensive moves.