Lati@s Discussion Thread

Yes, my understanding of it is that both will have a separate vote, just at the same time.

Guys, are we really that afraid of Triple Dragon? All those weaknesses.... Yes, it sounds potent offensively, but what about defensively??? Your entire rest of the team has to be steel just to make it balanced...


Ok, it seeme dlike a no brainer but I wanted to make sure.

Triple Dragon fad will wear off quickly imo.

Except Scizor and Snorlax share no common weakness (lol ice/ghost resistance/immunity), have absurdly different stats and movepools, etc

Latios and Latias are even more similar than the Eevolutions. Are you really saying that the line between "Uber" and "Not Uber" could possibly fine that Latias is on one side, and Latios the other? That's like saying Skymin's Air Slash is broken, but Togekiss's (and Jirachi's Iron Head) isn't. Oh wait...

Good call, considering that the Eeveelutions are all different types..

Yes, there stats are different enough that such a thing could happen.

Get fucking over it..
 
Are you really saying that the line between "Uber" and "Not Uber" could possibly fine that Latias is on one side, and Latios the other?

Yes. Latios hits much harder, can run a very viable dd set that can even throw trickband at the same time and is a much deadlier special sweeper than Latias. Latias can run special sets almost as well as Latios, but isn't exactly up there, but will be one of the best support Pokemon in OU. Based on pure theorymon I would say there is a chance that Latios falls uber while Latias falls OU. I think they should each be given their own test.
 
Yes. Latios hits much harder, can run a very viable dd set that can even throw trickband at the same time and is a much deadlier special sweeper than Latias. Latias can run special sets almost as well as Latios, but isn't exactly up there, but will be one of the best support Pokemon in OU. Based on pure theorymon I would say there is a chance that Latios falls uber while Latias falls OU. I think they should each be given their own test.

Possibly. I agree that Latios is probably better in OU than Latias, and she will be a great support pokemon (especially with Wish). However, Latias is the better CMer, and that could potentially make her more threatening. And she has great dual screen potential.
 
Oh.

Then by skew he just meant it'd make the data more confusing to interpret. But that was answered by the other posts.

Still though, picking at misuses of big words is fun [even though skew is another 4 letter word].

Thank you for more accurately interpreting what I was trying to say, I did misuse the word skew.

I stand by the fact that the idea that latios and latias are the same is an illusion created by their typing, ability and dexdata. Their differences in movepool and base data makes them as different as salamence and dragonite, two pokemon who have the same BST, a similar stat distribution and the same typing, but whose slight differences in stats and movepools give them completely different roles in the metagame.

An example of how testing lati@s together could confuse the data: as the month goes by, one lati proves to be more effective than the other in the eyes of the players, and one latis usage steadily rises as the other's declines. At the end of the test, the players vote to move the overcentralizing lati back to the uber tier and allow the "less effective" lati to stay in OU. But as the new OU tier begins to stabilize, it suddenly becomes clear that the lati that remained becomes just as overcentralizing as the banned lati, and was only deemed less effective because the other lati outshined it during the initial test. The OU community turns into CAEVO1 and people are calling for revotes and retesting and whatnot.

Or maybe having two latis in OU at once overcentralizes the game and makes for broken teams, but having only one in at a time is balanced.

Let me know if I misused any big words.
 
Thank you for more accurately interpreting what I was trying to say, I did misuse the word skew.

I stand by the fact that the idea that latios and latias are the same is an illusion created by their typing, ability and dexdata. Their differences in movepool and base data makes them as different as salamence and dragonite, two pokemon who have the same BST, a similar stat distribution and the same typing, but whose slight differences in stats and movepools give them completely different roles in the metagame.

An example of how testing lati@s together could confuse the data: as the month goes by, one lati proves to be more effective than the other in the eyes of the players, and one latis usage steadily rises as the other's declines. At the end of the test, the players vote to move the overcentralizing lati back to the uber tier and allow the "less effective" lati to stay in OU. But as the new OU tier begins to stabilize, it suddenly becomes clear that the lati that remained becomes just as overcentralizing as the banned lati, and was only deemed less effective because the other lati outshined it during the initial test. The OU community turns into CAEVO1 and people are calling for revotes and retesting and whatnot.

Or maybe having two latis in OU at once overcentralizes the game and makes for broken teams, but having only one in at a time is balanced.

Let me know if I misused any big words.

i understand your concern now, thanks (and obviously have made it clear that i was not nitpicking you, as some of our members think i would be so immature as to do). two things:

1) we are indeed going to vote on them separately, to clear that up

2) more to your concern, i think that it is more likely that either suspect will demonstrate to what extent it deserves its Stage 2 tag (uber or ou) regardless of the fact that they are being tested in quasi-tandem. if it is made clear that players are to vote on how each suspect performs in ou against their opponent's teams, regardless of how uber or ou the other ones plays, the the correct votes to that end will be cast. and this has everything to do with how likely it is that latios or latias will play "just barely ou" or "just barely uber"—if either suspect is given either tag in an overwhelming majority, that makes your point all the more moot. and again, the fact that the votes could be close, as they were with skymin (regardless of the purity of the pool), would speak to the undeniable fact that these suspects are dificult to agree upon for the very reason they are suspect than anything else.

and if it is indeed true that, if exactly one of the suspects is given a stage 2 ou tag but proves to be more "uber" when actually allowed on the suspect ladder, we can and will retest then. but besides the fact that I don't think that's very likely at all, how can we even be sure that any suspect that was given a stage 2 "ou" tag but plays more "uber" in practice after a few weeks or months in standard is not because of some new strategy that arises, as with yachechomp or dual screen deoxys-s? such possibilities are very real but outside the control of our aims with the suspect test (or any control, really)

if they both get stage two ou tags, it is far more likely that they do indeed keep each other in check and therefore both belong in ou, since the presence of both on one team wont necessarily make either one more uber by itself, but besides...isn't it just as likely that "one-month latias-only suspect test grants it ou tag" so we put it in standard then "one-month latios-only suspect test grants it ou tag" so we put it in standard then they're both in standard at the same time anyway and...whatever would happen with two enjoying actual simultaneous use would have happened regardless? unless you actually think it's likely that it is latias and latias only that would counter and check latios and latios only so much in the projected suspect test that latios would be "incorrectly" given a stage 2 ou tag where it would have been considerably more likely for it to prove itself uber in a true, isolated suspect test where it would only have opposing latios to deal with, which is purposely saying nothing of its actual projected checks and counters in scizor, mamoswine, tyranitar, etc...

and to this argument:

you might as well just test all suspects at once if your only doing it this way to save time.

while your rhetoric is not lost on me, it is misplaced here because you forget that we actually do plan on testing more than one suspect at a time down the road in stage three. this will be just the practice our staff needs to draw the conclusions and do the things we have to for the sake of competitive pokemon. don't worry about that. as proven by waning interest in our tests but the continued volunteering of at-best-questionable reasoning, we definitely don't place all our confidence in you guys with conducting a test like this by yourselves anyway. don't forget who is actually making the decisions here.
 
Possibly. I agree that Latios is probably better in OU than Latias, and she will be a great support pokemon (especially with Wish).
In my opinion, a better Wisher and a check for some threats is what OU needs. Gyarados for example won't like walking into a Thunderbolt while Infernape's only option is U-turn :/.

However, Latias is the better CMer,
Wait... what? Latias is better how? In order to bridge gap of power between herself and Latios, she'll need a Modest nature or, two Calm Minds. Also, with the abundace of Steel types in OU, I highly doubt Latias will be getting far with a CM set. Latios, however, can get up one Calm Mind and be set from the start :/. Hell, even SpecsLatios 2HKO's a lot of the OU Steels with Draco Meteor :(.

and that could potentially make her more threatening.
Yeah... wait... what?!

And she has great dual screen potential.

As does any Psychic Pokemon; Jirachi, Celebi, etc.
 
@IloveDarkrai!: It is true that most psychic pokemon have potential for dual screens (BTW, Slowbro can't learn Reflect), however Latias has the ability to pass these screens more effectively as it has higher base speed, and an arguably better typing than most, allowing it to effectively counter Infernape, Gyarados, and even Lucario. Jirachi will more than likely lose to all of these threats, and Celebi can lose to them too.
 
With this offensively driven metagame I can safely guess that Latios sees much
more use than Latias. Thus, if ither of them get the OU tier, it would be Latias.
 
As someone who has been testing this out (at least ScarfLatios) I'd sy it completely OU. CM sets may be ahrder to deal with, but moves like Draco Meteor don't quite hit hard enough wihtout a stat boosting move. Timid w/ Life Orb may be a adifferent story then. Testing that next.
 
@IloveDarkrai!: It is true that most psychic pokemon have potential for dual screens (BTW, Slowbro can't learn Reflect), however Latias has the ability to pass these screens more effectively as it has higher base speed, and an arguably better typing than most, allowing it to effectively counter Infernape, Gyarados, and even Lucario. Jirachi will more than likely lose to all of these threats, and Celebi can lose to them too.

Bronzong, Azelf, Metagross, Alakazam, Jirachi, Celebi, Mesprit, Uxie, Starmie, Mr.Mime (yep, I said it T.T), Cresselia... dare I go on?

Celebi has a reliable move to nail Tyranitar, Swampert, Hippowdon, Rhyperior and Gyarados while Latias has to resort to wasting two moveslots to hit the above. Jirachi has a much better chance against Tyranitar and Weavile while Latias must resort to HP Fighting due to Iron Head. Bronzong has no need for a recovery move since it can explode and take something with it.

On the subject of Gyarados and Lucario- Celebi doesn't have much of a worry about Lucario if it's running Double Screens, same goes for Gyarados and Jirachi vs both of the two mentioned Pokemon. In fact, Latias has a nice chance of losing to Ice Punching SDLukes since they'll just SD again and again, past the Reflect's boost :s.
 
:P, I already finished my stall team feat. CM Latias. Time to weed the bugs out :/.

Anyway, I should be able to get on Shoddy after Christmas to start testing this team. Also, since they won't be grouped together and since Latias is first, I doubt that there will be a lot of intrest since more people want to use Lati-fucking-os :(.
 
Indeed. Latios is raw. Latias is too girly. XD

Even though Latias might be more useful than Latios. Once the Suspect Ladder comes out, might use Latias as an alternate to Blissey or something. Well, actually, my whole team will need to change, I got both Jirachi AND Azelf on it, along with Salamence. I'll think of something.

Might be able to get a similar job to the whore done without whoring. Maybe.
 
To be clear about this, the rating/deviation requirements are for the Suspect Ladder only, or do you need to meet them in both the Suspect and Standard ladders?
 
I just noticed the new voting system. I like it, but I don't think there should be an "upper" tier for voting however the fuck you want. People like IPL voted for a reason against Smogon's philosophy and still did well.

Also, same quibbles about 1655 as a bar.

But those are minor compared to my HELL YEAH WOO for a return to some sort of basic vote screening.
 
It'd make no sense if it was in the Standard Ladder, because the point is to weed out players less successful in that metagame. Basically, it's an attempt to get rid of the bleh votes.

So, I think it's safe to say Suspect Ladder. :P

Agree with Chris, even though I didn't participate in the other tests. Might as well do this one. :P
 
The fact that there are more than a couple posts bemoaning the delay of Latios just affirms the fact that this is the right decision. I think Latias would be largely ignored in a simultaneous test, and that is a sufficient reason (though not the only one) that it should be done in isolation. Good luck to everyone and I hope we have a quality voter pool.
 
Wow, that came out of nowhere. I didn't see this seperate testing coming, not from a mile away.

I was going to use Latias regardless ._.

Although, not liking the situation at all, I suppose it makes sense. We don't need it to be another Skymin:

-Most (not all) of Skymin's uber votes were cast because it was encountered but a few times and were haxed to death or similar.

-Most (not all)OU votes were either using theorymon or claimed that because, if it was uber material, it would have been used more. They didn't see it too much either.

At least those are some of the reasons I've heard. A lot of it was just a lack of adequate experience with the thing. I couldn't vote, but I only ran into it a few times I suppose this is the only way to avoid that situation again. Both being done together would mean a majority of Latias' votes would come from "It's not seen, it's not a problem" (OU) and "It's 'just like Latios" (uber).

God this sucks. I won't lie, I'm massively upset. But I'll respect the decision. Maybe this'll make Latias more likely to be seen as OU (trying to find a bright side).


EDIT: Woah woah woah. Can somebody clear this up for me. Voting requirement says your account must be 3 months old. Does this mean September and previous only? Trying to remain calm here...kinda hard when my voting privilage is at jeopardy. If so, I need some major clarification, ASAP. That's full blown ridiculous.

Double EDIT: Ok, not completely ridiculous, but still.
 
The 3 month seniority requirement was put into place to ensure that the person has had adequate time in the community in order to understand our approach and philosophy. You will need to have registered your account 3 months before the date the test ends. That will be 30 days after the ladder is implemented.
 
._.

God, your post even said to read it carefully and I still overlooked (or didn't consider) that part. Thanks for clearing that up. I should be eligible then (once I get my rating up). If not, I'll apply for special permission XP
 
The 3 month seniority requirement was put into place to ensure that the person has had adequate time in the community in order to understand our approach and philosophy. You will need to have registered your account 3 months before the date the test ends. That will be 30 days after the ladder is implemented.

Question: Wouldn't the application the user has to fill out demonstrate this? If a 2 month user demonstrated knowledge in an application, it would seem odd to deny them on these grounds.
 
Also, it doesn't take into account people that lurk before making an account. I lurked for a good long while before I finally made an account, since I usually don't make accounts unless I need to or I want to post something. The 3 month rule makes no sense, IMO.
 
Well, the stated reason for it does, but if we're going to be screening votes the stated reason for it is dumb as you already have to read through a paragraph dealing with how they see Smogon philosophy, thus making it irrelavent.

What about IPL type battlers who are really good but don't follow our philosophy when it comes to voting? He voted because he preferred another metagame, rather than as a last resort when something becomes too dominant.
 
They don't want to go through everything. No testing and shit. Three months, that's it. It's acctually very simple, because a lot of people do not lurk and aren't as good or do not know the metagame good enough. Sucks for the people who do.
 
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